1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinshikai10]

@ Azarhal

I could be reading your point wrong but,

I don't agree with you on the truth leading to stopping hatred. IMHO I find that trying to learn the truth on anything can in fact bring more hated.

Lets say that Cassandra or the PC learns a truth about the Chantry that could jeopardize its power over Thedas. Because they learn this truth some within the Chantry leadership could grow to hate the Inquisition rather then simply not trusting them.

Or if a truth reveals that Justinia/Leliana personal beliefs are wrong. Do you believe that they would accept this or would they grow to dislike the Inquisition or even hate them, for crushing their personal beliefs?

Skimming though the link you provided, I feel like these seekers are closer to Wardens then Seekers of truth. At least in how they operate, under no king or lord.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Highly doubt it that game allow us to create philosophy or point that one is wrong i think that will be more dragon age style "you are murderer" "you too" counter argument "shut up i will kill you"

Even worse with tallis where she have always last word no matter what we choose. .

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@ Azarhal

I could be reading your point wrong but,

I don't agree with you on the truth leading to stopping hatred. IMHO I find that trying to learn the truth on anything can in fact bring more hated.

Lets say that Cassandra or the PC learns a truth about the Chantry that could jeopardize its power over Thedas. Because they learn this truth some within the Chantry leadership could grow to hate the Inquisition rather then simply not trusting them.

Or if a truth reveals that Justinia/Leliana personal beliefs are wrong. Do you believe that they would accept this or would they grow to dislike the Inquisition or even hate them, for crushing their personal beliefs?

Skimming though the link you provided, I feel like these seekers are closer to Wardens then Seekers of truth. At least in how they operate, under no king or lord.

What you are saying is that people not accepting the truth will cause hatred, that's not Cassandra.

[TheKomandorShepard]

azarhal wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@ Azarhal

I could be reading your point wrong but,

I don't agree with you on the truth leading to stopping hatred. IMHO I find that trying to learn the truth on anything can in fact bring more hated.

Lets say that Cassandra or the PC learns a truth about the Chantry that could jeopardize its power over Thedas. Because they learn this truth some within the Chantry leadership could grow to hate the Inquisition rather then simply not trusting them.

Or if a truth reveals that Justinia/Leliana personal beliefs are wrong. Do you believe that they would accept this or would they grow to dislike the Inquisition or even hate them, for crushing their personal beliefs?

Skimming though the link you provided, I feel like these seekers are closer to Wardens then Seekers of truth. At least in how they operate, under no king or lord.

What you are saying is that people not accepting the truth will cause hatred, that's not Cassandra.

She already did that with her conspiracy theories and fury that hawke was apostate who dear go against chantry and trying paint thim as big bad until varric told her that she is dumb brick.  

[Rinshikai10]

azarhal wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@ Azarhal

I could be reading your point wrong but,

I don't agree with you on the truth leading to stopping hatred. IMHO I find that trying to learn the truth on anything can in fact bring more hated.

Lets say that Cassandra or the PC learns a truth about the Chantry that could jeopardize its power over Thedas. Because they learn this truth some within the Chantry leadership could grow to hate the Inquisition rather then simply not trusting them.

Or if a truth reveals that Justinia/Leliana personal beliefs are wrong. Do you believe that they would accept this or would they grow to dislike the Inquisition or even hate them, for crushing their personal beliefs?

Skimming though the link you provided, I feel like these seekers are closer to Wardens then Seekers of truth. At least in how they operate, under no king or lord.

What you are saying is that people not accepting the truth will cause hatred, that's not Cassandra.

Not quite, the point I'm trying to make is seeking the truth, does not automatically mean that hatred will stop once it is revealed.

There are some who would rather live a lie because it is easier to accept then the truth.

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@ Azarhal

I could be reading your point wrong but,

I don't agree with you on the truth leading to stopping hatred. IMHO I find that trying to learn the truth on anything can in fact bring more hated.

Lets say that Cassandra or the PC learns a truth about the Chantry that could jeopardize its power over Thedas. Because they learn this truth some within the Chantry leadership could grow to hate the Inquisition rather then simply not trusting them.

Or if a truth reveals that Justinia/Leliana personal beliefs are wrong. Do you believe that they would accept this or would they grow to dislike the Inquisition or even hate them, for crushing their personal beliefs?

Skimming though the link you provided, I feel like these seekers are closer to Wardens then Seekers of truth. At least in how they operate, under no king or lord.

What you are saying is that people not accepting the truth will cause hatred, that's not Cassandra.

Not quite, the point I'm trying to make is seeking the truth, does not automatically mean that hatred will stop once it is revealed.

There are some who would rather live a lie because it is easier to accept then the truth.

I never said she was going to reveal what she find. She want to know the truth, because this help her understand what is going on. Once you understand why things are happening, you can find the proper solution.

[Rinshikai10]

@Azarhal

Could you elaborate?

[dragonflight288]

azarhal wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@ Azarhal

I could be reading your point wrong but,

I don't agree with you on the truth leading to stopping hatred. IMHO I find that trying to learn the truth on anything can in fact bring more hated.

Lets say that Cassandra or the PC learns a truth about the Chantry that could jeopardize its power over Thedas. Because they learn this truth some within the Chantry leadership could grow to hate the Inquisition rather then simply not trusting them.

Or if a truth reveals that Justinia/Leliana personal beliefs are wrong. Do you believe that they would accept this or would they grow to dislike the Inquisition or even hate them, for crushing their personal beliefs?

Skimming though the link you provided, I feel like these seekers are closer to Wardens then Seekers of truth. At least in how they operate, under no king or lord.

What you are saying is that people not accepting the truth will cause hatred, that's not Cassandra.

Not quite, the point I'm trying to make is seeking the truth, does not automatically mean that hatred will stop once it is revealed.

There are some who would rather live a lie because it is easier to accept then the truth.

I never said she was going to reveal what she find. She want to know the truth, because this help her understand what is going on. Once you understand why things are happening, you can find the proper solution.

Hypothetical question here.

Let's apply this. Say the Circle of Magi in Tevinter found a way to forever remove the threat of a mage becoming an abomination, but to do so required a blood magic ritual. No one dies, and no demons are summoned, but it's one of the spells that can only be accomplished with blood magic. Would the chantry or the qunari ever allow that method to be used? Remove the danger the Chantry spouts about mages being dangerous when it comes to mages, or would they keep the danger present because of the use of blood magic?

I'm not expecting an answer because this problem hasn't been solved and no answer would be supported by canon or lore. Rather, think of it as a mental exercise. Would the world be ready for a cure, if the cure came in the form of something that is vilified?

[Rinshikai10]

That's an interesting question dragonflight. Now I have to ask does anyone think that Justinia would consider using the process the dragonflight proposed, if it meant removing the threats of Mages?

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 27 août 2013 - 12:29 .

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@Azarhal

Could you elaborate?

Once you understand why people are doing things a certain way (aka the truth to there actions), you can influence them. That influence can be a lot of things: blackmail, justice, force, rallying people, debats, trying to change their mind with "logic/sentiments", etc. It's really depends on the situation, people involved, the things at stake and the end result that you want (and your morality too).

[Rinshikai10]

@Azarhal

That makes a great deal of sense. However, I'm still confused why you believe that Cassandra would not reveal what she could find.

[LanceSolous13]

In the question of how the previous Devine 'died by stroke', I wouldn't be surprised if Morrigan killed her off. A powerful witch who has integrated herself into the court of what basically amounts to the Pope and this one just happens to have an extreme fear of mages? Assuming that the Devine's fear of mages doesn't work in favor of Morrigan's Plan, I could picture her rigging everything to kill the old Devine and install this new one.

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the names of the Divines.

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@Azarhal

That makes a great deal of sense. However, I'm still confused why you believe that Cassandra would not reveal what she could find.

She'll do it if it's advantage her, she won't if it doesn't. She's a pragmatic, not a "everyone needs to know the truth!" kind of person.

I'm also wondering if she has a nationalist side to her, by this I mean that she might see to Nevarra well being well before Orlais.

LanceSolous13 wrote...

In the question of how the previous
Devine 'died by stroke', I wouldn't be surprised if Morrigan killed her
off. A powerful witch who has integrated herself into the court of what
basically amounts to the Pope and this one just happens to have an
extreme fear of mages? Assuming that the Devine's fear of mages doesn't
work in favor of Morrigan's Plan, I could picture her rigging everything
to kill the old Devine and install this new one.

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the names of the Divines.

Beatrice had a big fear of mages because she was attacked by blood mages who sent pretty dragons to kill her. I suspect internal elements in the Chantry exploited this paranoia for their own gain too. Beatrice was becoming senile toward the end of her rule.

And I doubt Morrigan killed her. Beatrice either died of natural cause (she was old) or she was killed by someone inside the Chantry that saw she was making thing worst. Going by whom is the new Divine, the killer might actually be Leliana in this case if this was a powerplay.

[Rinshikai10]

azarhal wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@Azarhal

That makes a great deal of sense. However, I'm still confused why you believe that Cassandra would not reveal what she could find.

She'll do it if it's advantage her, she won't if it doesn't. She's a pragmatic, not a "everyone needs to know the truth!" kind of person.

I'm also wondering if she has a nationalist side to her, by this I mean that she might see to Nevarra well being well before Orlais.

LanceSolous13 wrote...

In the question of how the previous
Devine 'died by stroke', I wouldn't be surprised if Morrigan killed her
off. A powerful witch who has integrated herself into the court of what
basically amounts to the Pope and this one just happens to have an
extreme fear of mages? Assuming that the Devine's fear of mages doesn't
work in favor of Morrigan's Plan, I could picture her rigging everything
to kill the old Devine and install this new one.

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the names of the Divines.

Beatrice had a big fear of mages because she was attacked by blood mages who sent pretty dragons to kill her. I suspect internal elements in the Chantry exploited this paranoia for their own gain too. Beatrice was becoming senile toward the end of her rule.

And I doubt Morrigan killed her. Beatrice either died of natural cause (she was old) or she was killed by someone inside the Chantry that saw she was making thing worst. Going by whom is the new Divine, the killer might actually be Leliana in this case if this was a powerplay.

This could be a possible reason why Cassandra left Justinia's service. She seemed very loyal to Beatrice/Chantry in DotS. If foul play is involved it could cause Cassandra to see things differently.

It would definitely be interesting to see if Cassandra does have a Nationalist view when it comes to her loyalties.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 28 août 2013 - 03:53 .

[Rinshikai10]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

In the question of how the previous Devine 'died by stroke', I wouldn't be surprised if Morrigan killed her off. A powerful witch who has integrated herself into the court of what basically amounts to the Pope and this one just happens to have an extreme fear of mages? Assuming that the Devine's fear of mages doesn't work in favor of Morrigan's Plan, I could picture her rigging everything to kill the old Devine and install this new one.

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the names of the Divines.

Azarhal makes a good point about Beatrice's fear of Mages after the events of Dawn of the Seeker. This mindset is counterproductive to what Justinia claims to want in a reformed Circle system. IMHO the one that gains the most out of Beatrice's death would be Justinia herself. I'm still trying to understand why Beatrice would put Justinia's name forward when they appear to have very different views about mages and magic.  

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

In the question of how the previous Devine 'died by stroke', I wouldn't be surprised if Morrigan killed her off. A powerful witch who has integrated herself into the court of what basically amounts to the Pope and this one just happens to have an extreme fear of mages? Assuming that the Devine's fear of mages doesn't work in favor of Morrigan's Plan, I could picture her rigging everything to kill the old Devine and install this new one.

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the names of the Divines.

Azarhal makes a good point about Beatrice's fear of Mages after the events of Dawn of the Seeker. This mindset is counterproductive to what Justinia claims to want in a reformed Circle system. IMHO the one that gains the most out of Beatrice's death would be Justinia herself. I'm still trying to understand why Beatrice would put Justinia's name forward when they appear to have very different views about mages and magic.  

There could be a multitude of reasons. Some could be benign and benevolent. They may have differing views of magic, but they may have very similar views on nearly everything else. As this is unlikely, we know from Leliana's Song that Dorethea used Marjoline, was betrayed, so we know that the current Divine Justine is not above using bards, and the whole situation could have been set up by Justine herself, in the famous Orlesian "Game" of politics.

Wouldn't surprise me either way. I'm leaning toward the latter, however, because Orlesian and Chantry politics have long been in bed together, and where one has gone, the other soon followed.

[Rinshikai10]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

In the question of how the previous Devine 'died by stroke', I wouldn't be surprised if Morrigan killed her off. A powerful witch who has integrated herself into the court of what basically amounts to the Pope and this one just happens to have an extreme fear of mages? Assuming that the Devine's fear of mages doesn't work in favor of Morrigan's Plan, I could picture her rigging everything to kill the old Devine and install this new one.

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the names of the Divines.

Azarhal makes a good point about Beatrice's fear of Mages after the events of Dawn of the Seeker. This mindset is counterproductive to what Justinia claims to want in a reformed Circle system. IMHO the one that gains the most out of Beatrice's death would be Justinia herself. I'm still trying to understand why Beatrice would put Justinia's name forward when they appear to have very different views about mages and magic.  

There could be a multitude of reasons. Some could be benign and benevolent. They may have differing views of magic, but they may have very similar views on nearly everything else. As this is unlikely, we know from Leliana's Song that Dorethea used Marjoline, was betrayed, so we know that the current Divine Justine is not above using bards, and the whole situation could have been set up by Justine herself, in the famous Orlesian "Game" of politics.

Wouldn't surprise me either way. I'm leaning toward the latter, however, because Orlesian and Chantry politics have long been in bed together, and where one has gone, the other soon followed.

Did Dorethea use Marjoline? I thought it was the other way around, with that whole document thing.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

In the question of how the previous Devine 'died by stroke', I wouldn't be surprised if Morrigan killed her off. A powerful witch who has integrated herself into the court of what basically amounts to the Pope and this one just happens to have an extreme fear of mages? Assuming that the Devine's fear of mages doesn't work in favor of Morrigan's Plan, I could picture her rigging everything to kill the old Devine and install this new one.

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the names of the Divines.

Azarhal makes a good point about Beatrice's fear of Mages after the events of Dawn of the Seeker. This mindset is counterproductive to what Justinia claims to want in a reformed Circle system. IMHO the one that gains the most out of Beatrice's death would be Justinia herself. I'm still trying to understand why Beatrice would put Justinia's name forward when they appear to have very different views about mages and magic.  

There could be a multitude of reasons. Some could be benign and benevolent. They may have differing views of magic, but they may have very similar views on nearly everything else. As this is unlikely, we know from Leliana's Song that Dorethea used Marjoline, was betrayed, so we know that the current Divine Justine is not above using bards, and the whole situation could have been set up by Justine herself, in the famous Orlesian "Game" of politics.

Wouldn't surprise me either way. I'm leaning toward the latter, however, because Orlesian and Chantry politics have long been in bed together, and where one has gone, the other soon followed.

Did Dorethea use Marjoline? I thought it was the other way around, with that whole document thing.

Nope marjolene used her but divine used leliana manipulating her into getting papers.

[Rinshikai10]

Still makes me wonder why Dorethea had these documents to begin with. I doubt that a Revered Mother who in not sanctioned to be in Ferelden, could have these with Orlais blessing.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Still makes me wonder why Dorethea had these documents to begin with. I doubt that a Revered Mother who in not sanctioned to be in Ferelden, could have these with Orlais blessing.

To be honest it is hard to say how much leliana song reflects what rly happened they may just put this into ferelden because they don't want to show us orlais in first game and may try justify that was story told by leliana.If i renember correctly that chantry get these plans to send there priests.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 01 septembre 2013 - 11:20 .

[Rinshikai10]

You make a good point TheKomandorShepard. When it comes to Leliana I just don't know anymore. Is she trustworthy? Or, was Marjolene right saying that she will use you.

Can you provide a source for the Chantry plans to send priests? I don't recall that one.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

You make a good point TheKomandorShepard. When it comes to Leliana I just don't know anymore. Is she trustworthy? Or, was Marjolene right saying that she will use you.

Can you provide a source for the Chantry plans to send priests? I don't recall that one.

3:10

Well i for most of the game i thought leliana was send as spy but i throwed that theory because too many things was contrary to this and i don't see reason why she was spying there even romanced her.After da 2 i don't trust her entirely to the point that sooner i will trust morrigan than her.

I don't think that marjolene knew what she was saying she said that because she was paranoid but well accidentally she may be right. 

[Jaison1986]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

You make a good point TheKomandorShepard. When it comes to Leliana I just don't know anymore. Is she trustworthy? Or, was Marjolene right saying that she will use you.

Can you provide a source for the Chantry plans to send priests? I don't recall that one.

3:10

Well i for most of the game i thought leliana was send as spy but i throwed that theory because too many things was contrary to this and i don't see reason why she was spying there even romanced her.After da 2 i don't trust her entirely to the point that sooner i will trust morrigan than her.

I don't think that marjolene knew what she was saying she said that because she was paranoid but well accidentally she may be right. 

The fact she joined the Seekers just shows how shady Leliana got. I don't think I will ever trust her. Someone that puts more priority on an dead woman ashes rather then the coming doom of the darkspawn doesn't get any approval from me.

[Rinshikai10]

@Jaison1986

According to word of DG, Leliana is if fact not a Seeker.
http://social.biowar...36283/3#8843999

(Edit)
A tweet from DG Dec 14 2011
https://twitter.com/...019473398939648

However, over the years it appears that Leliana may have never truly abandoned the game like she claims to have done.
@TheKomandorShepard
This video makes me think the Dorothea is more concerned with Orlais safety then the whole of Thedas. However, this is told from Lelianas POV so there is no trusting her 100%.

Though it does explain why Dorothea had the documents to begin with.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 08 septembre 2013 - 08:19 .

[Rinshikai10]

With the revealing of the Red Templar faction, does it seem likely that the Templars loyal to the Divine will be the only sane ones we see?  If so, is there a chance we will see these loyal Templars trying to gain the support for the Divine, while the Red Templars attack people. Making the situation all the more difficult for Justinia.


From the demo videos shown, I get the feeling that these Red Templars may be an army of Meredith like crazies.

Any thoughts?

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 21 septembre 2013 - 04:42 .