1605 réponses à ce sujet

[azarhal]

Red Templars are an army of Meredith-like crazies. The red lyrium behemoth are literally mutated templars (thx to r2smuse that spent time looking at them to find the little details). Actually, they might even be Templars that consider Meredith a martyr now that I think of it and not just radicals who got their hands on crazy-make-dust. When Meredith turns into a statue in DA2, one of the Templar runs up to her and looks all sad (despite the helmet)...

The way Varric talked in DA2, Seekers and Templars are all Templars now and rebelled against the Chantry. He didn't seem to think that were any Templars left with the Chantry (he talked to Cassandra like she was a member of the rebel group), which should indicate that what ever group stayed loyal has a new name or isn't publically known (might change in DAI depending how long after DA2 interrogation it start).

I don't see the Templar Order surviving the stigma of the Red Templars as well. I think they are done for and something else will take their place as the group that protect mages from mobs and themselves.

[Rinshikai10]

So you think that Templars still loyal to Justinia may call themselves something else so the commoners won't mistake them for the Red Templars?

I have to agree you at this point, what the Order was is likely gone for good and no amount of good deeds from the few will change that now.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I rly hope that lambert is alive and at least some of his peoples remain "normal" (well if we can talk about templar in that way) he is clearly better leader than divine (i'm not talking here about his views).

"will take their place as the group that protect mages from mobs and themselves."
that was theoretical goal templars and failed horribly in practice so this system goind down replaced by new unless you like to repeat old mistakes but well .

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

So you think that Templars still loyal to Justinia may call themselves something else so the commoners won't mistake them for the Red Templars?

Yes, if there are any.

[Rinshikai10]

In the World of Thedas timeline its says that some Templars are still loyal to Justinia. However, I'm wary about the book after a few errors were revealed.

Maybe the group we see at the end of DA2 is what Justinia has done with the remaining loyalist. DG did say that Leliana is not a seeker, so could it be possible that this group is whats left after Asunder?

[Rinshikai10]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I rly hope that lambert is alive and at least some of his peoples remain "normal" (well if we can talk about templar in that way) he is clearly better leader than divine (i'm not talking here about his views).

"will take their place as the group that protect mages from mobs and themselves."
that was theoretical goal templars and failed horribly in practice so this system goind down replaced by new unless you like to repeat old mistakes but well .

Interesting video TheKomandorShepard

It makes me question both Wynne and the Divines mindsets. The current system is without a doubt a failure. No amount of small changes are going to fix this system, unless the core foundations are replaced.

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I rly hope that lambert is alive and at least some of his peoples remain "normal" (well if we can talk about templar in that way) he is clearly better leader than divine (i'm not talking here about his views).

"will take their place as the group that protect mages from mobs and themselves."
that was theoretical goal templars and failed horribly in practice so this system goind down replaced by new unless you like to repeat old mistakes but well .

Interesting video TheKomandorShepard

It makes me question both Wynne and the Divines mindsets. The current system is without a doubt a failure. No amount of small changes are going to fix this system, unless the core foundations are replaced.

Which foundations are you talking about? The templar recruiting practices? Having only one organization have access to the lyrium market? The Chantry's addiction to getting involved with politics in favor of Orlais?

[Rinshikai10]

I guess it's all of the above and more. From what I have seen, the Chantry does not create a very accepting environment for anyone but its followers. Basically your with us or against us. If your against us we will either forcefully save you or we kill you.

The phrase "Magic exist to serve man and never to rule over him" is one of the most important pillars in the Chantry's foundation. Mages can not rule, and thus must be subjugated in order to serve.

IMHO the Chantry is just as bad as Tevinter when it comes to abuse with Magic. While they don't rule directly like the Magisters, the Chantry uses the fear of Magic as a tool to indirectly rule over others.

The major flaw that I see with Wynne and Justinias plan, is despite all the problems that the current system has, they only want to change the minor things that will only stall the problem for so long.

Its like trying to build a house on the old frame that has been rotting away for years. That will lead to a disaster when the frame gives under the frame. Sometimes you have to rebuild from scratch. (Am I making sense?)

Justinia seems like a good person as Fiona said, but as a leader she leaves a lot to be desired. (Just like Elthina)

[Dean_the_Young]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I guess it's all of the above and more. From what I have seen, the Chantry does not create a very accepting environment for anyone but its followers. Basically your with us or against us. If your against us we will either forcefully save you or we kill you.

The phrase "Magic exist to serve man and never to rule over him" is one of the most important pillars in the Chantry's foundation. Mages can not rule, and thus must be subjugated in order to serve.

Hardly the only interpretation of the meaning or the execution. After all, 'mages' aren't mentioned in that pillar at all.

IMHO the Chantry is just as bad as Tevinter when it comes to abuse with Magic. While they don't rule directly like the Magisters, the Chantry uses the fear of Magic as a tool to indirectly rule over others.

YHO screams of false equivalence. Feel free to accuse the Chantry of being overly paranoid and afraid of the potential abuses of magic- you'll hardly find anyone who believes they embrace magic for all it could be. But to claim that the arguably over-zealous fear of a population majority that targets a distinct minority is just as bad as the litany of historic abuses  the unfettered minority has been known to release on the mundanes?

The major flaw that I see with Wynne and Justinias plan, is despite all the problems that the current system has, they only want to change the minor things that will only stall the problem for so long.

Its like trying to build a house on the old frame that has been rotting away for years. That will lead to a disaster when the frame gives under the frame. Sometimes you have to rebuild from scratch. (Am I making sense?)

Justinia seems like a good person as Fiona said, but as a leader she leaves a lot to be desired. (Just like Elthina)

From what you're saying, it seems like Wynn and Justinia and Elthina's problem is that they have a conscience and empathy and view starting from scratch as horrific when such a clean euphism means the depravities and abuses of rebellion, societal and political collapse for the established world order, and a propensity for expansion into unintended wars... none of which would guarantee the following outcome 'fixes' the original problems.

Stupid bleeding heart liberal leaders- to afraid to address the problem directly. They should have taken a page from Gaddafi, or Assad. Those are people who knew how to move forward and plan to rebuild from scratch when faced with a house divided.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 septembre 2013 - 04:20 .

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I guess it's all of the above and more. From what I have seen, the Chantry does not create a very accepting environment for anyone but its followers. Basically your with us or against us. If your against us we will either forcefully save you or we kill you.

The phrase "Magic exist to serve man and never to rule over him" is one of the most important pillars in the Chantry's foundation. Mages can not rule, and thus must be subjugated in order to serve.

IMHO the Chantry is just as bad as Tevinter when it comes to abuse with Magic. While they don't rule directly like the Magisters, the Chantry uses the fear of Magic as a tool to indirectly rule over others.

The major flaw that I see with Wynne and Justinias plan, is despite all the problems that the current system has, they only want to change the minor things that will only stall the problem for so long.

Its like trying to build a house on the old frame that has been rotting away for years. That will lead to a disaster when the frame gives under the frame. Sometimes you have to rebuild from scratch. (Am I making sense?)

Justinia seems like a good person as Fiona said, but as a leader she leaves a lot to be desired. (Just like Elthina)

Right. Makes sense, and I respect your point of view. I more or less agree as well.

Personally, I think Fiona also leaves a lot to be desired as a leader, although I don't question her passion or commitment.

[Rinshikai10]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I guess it's all of the above and more. From what I have seen, the Chantry does not create a very accepting environment for anyone but its followers. Basically your with us or against us. If your against us we will either forcefully save you or we kill you.

The phrase "Magic exist to serve man and never to rule over him" is one of the most important pillars in the Chantry's foundation. Mages can not rule, and thus must be subjugated in order to serve.

IMHO the Chantry is just as bad as Tevinter when it comes to abuse with Magic. While they don't rule directly like the Magisters, the Chantry uses the fear of Magic as a tool to indirectly rule over others.

The major flaw that I see with Wynne and Justinias plan, is despite all the problems that the current system has, they only want to change the minor things that will only stall the problem for so long.

Its like trying to build a house on the old frame that has been rotting away for years. That will lead to a disaster when the frame gives under the frame. Sometimes you have to rebuild from scratch. (Am I making sense?)

Justinia seems like a good person as Fiona said, but as a leader she leaves a lot to be desired. (Just like Elthina)

Right. Makes sense, and I respect your point of view. I more or less agree as well.

Personally, I think Fiona also leaves a lot to be desired as a leader, although I don't question her passion or commitment.

We agree on that, Fiona is passionate. I find that she has a far stronger will then most Mages, due to the hardships shes been through.

[Rinshikai10]

@Dean_the_Young

You and I going to have to disagree on some points.

Like it or not the Chantry is divided just as you point out, however, Justinia, Wynne, and Elthina gave me no indication that the planed to unite the various group. (its more imposing a view) I would would believe that is more guilt then a conscience drives them. (Wynne shows this many times in DAO and Asunder when she tries to fixs problems she created.

When it comes to Empathy Wynne and Justinia both show that they don't understand the feelings of others at all. The Divine flat out ignores the Circle Mages until she is forced to, while Wynne preaches to the White Spire Mages, and later learns that shes a hypocrite to herself.

While I agree with you that Tevinter Mages have preformed great cruelties to mundanes across Thedas. The Chantry working with the Empire has done just as cruel things to other minorities (Mages, Elves, and Various Nations through conquest after each Blight)

An unfortunate truth is this M/T war was inevitable, leaving Justinia in a too little too late situation.

This is just my opinion from what I have seen.

In a nutshell I believe that we will have to agree to disagree. Would that be a fair assumption?

[Dean_the_Young]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@Dean_the_Young

You and I going to have to disagree on some points.

Like it or not the Chantry is divided just as you point out, however, Justinia, Wynne, and Elthina gave me no indication that the planed to unite the various group. (its more imposing a view) I would would believe that is more guilt then a conscience drives them. (Wynne shows this many times in DAO and Asunder when she tries to fixs problems she created.

When it comes to Empathy Wynne and Justinia both show that they don't understand the feelings of others at all. The Divine flat out ignores the Circle Mages until she is forced to, while Wynne preaches to the White Spire Mages, and later learns that shes a hypocrite to herself.

While I agree with you that Tevinter Mages have preformed great cruelties to mundanes across Thedas. The Chantry working with the Empire has done just as cruel things to other minorities (Mages, Elves, and Various Nations through conquest after each Blight)

An unfortunate truth is this M/T war was inevitable, leaving Justinia in a too little too late situation.

This is just my opinion from what I have seen.

In a nutshell I believe that we will have to agree to disagree. Would that be a fair assumption?

Since you didn't appear to pick up the core points and have a truly bizaar sense of equivalence, sure. We're going to be disagreeing.

[Rinshikai10]

If I misunderstood you, would please elaborate your previous points with in game examples, so that I can understand your POV? Also I'm not sure what your getting at about equivalence.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I rly hope that lambert is alive and at least some of his peoples remain "normal" (well if we can talk about templar in that way) he is clearly better leader than divine (i'm not talking here about his views).

"will take their place as the group that protect mages from mobs and themselves."
that was theoretical goal templars and failed horribly in practice so this system goind down replaced by new unless you like to repeat old mistakes but well .

Interesting video TheKomandorShepard

It makes me question both Wynne and the Divines mindsets. The current system is without a doubt a failure. No amount of small changes are going to fix this system, unless the core foundations are replaced.

Which foundations are you talking about? The templar recruiting practices? Having only one organization have access to the lyrium market? The Chantry's addiction to getting involved with politics in favor of Orlais?

Most of them chantry is extremely flawed first you don't want jews controled by Hitler and the ****s giving mages intro church who teaches that mages are devils and blame them for almost every disaster in the world (Well because they are)  is bad idea.For me killing mages would be best solution and most humanitarian considering what awaits them in circle and well for mages almost always life will suck even if we don't take that they are demon bombs.  

[Rinshikai10]

If most of the Circle Mages get killed I see only one possible outcomes. The Qunari will once again invade, turning Thedas into a Qun Empire.

If that happens guess where the fingers are going to point.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If most of the Circle Mages get killed I see only one possible outcomes. The Qunari will once again invade, turning Thedas into a Qun Empire.

If that happens guess where the fingers are going to point.

Qunari are di*** well but in da almost everyone in thedas is one so it is irrelevant who rules it will be bad or worse second with qunari of course i could see peoples who could find qunari better chance than they have now. I doubt that for lower social classes qun would be bad. 

[dragonflight288]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If most of the Circle Mages get killed I see only one possible outcomes. The Qunari will once again invade, turning Thedas into a Qun Empire.

If that happens guess where the fingers are going to point.

Qunari are di*** well but in da almost everyone in thedas is one so it is irrelevant who rules it will be bad or worse second with qunari of course i could see peoples who could find qunari better chance than they have now. I doubt that for lower social classes qun would be bad. 

It would be bad for the mages who have yet to be born.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If most of the Circle Mages get killed I see only one possible outcomes. The Qunari will once again invade, turning Thedas into a Qun Empire.

If that happens guess where the fingers are going to point.

Qunari are di*** well but in da almost everyone in thedas is one so it is irrelevant who rules it will be bad or worse second with qunari of course i could see peoples who could find qunari better chance than they have now. I doubt that for lower social classes qun would be bad. 

It would be bad for the mages who have yet to be born.

not that somewhere is good for mages just bad ,very bad or totally screwed.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If most of the Circle Mages get killed I see only one possible outcomes. The Qunari will once again invade, turning Thedas into a Qun Empire.

If that happens guess where the fingers are going to point.

Qunari are di*** well but in da almost everyone in thedas is one so it is irrelevant who rules it will be bad or worse second with qunari of course i could see peoples who could find qunari better chance than they have now. I doubt that for lower social classes qun would be bad. 

It would be bad for the mages who have yet to be born.

Only mages deserve sympathy now?

Anyway, if the mages all die it would be worse for a Thedas in the event of a Qunari invasion but they could still win eventually. The Qunari overextended themselves in the last war, conquering all Thedas is  pretty far beyond their strength unless they develop something game changing. Like tanks or something.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 22 septembre 2013 - 08:58 .

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If most of the Circle Mages get killed I see only one possible outcomes. The Qunari will once again invade, turning Thedas into a Qun Empire.

If that happens guess where the fingers are going to point.

Qunari are di*** well but in da almost everyone in thedas is one so it is irrelevant who rules it will be bad or worse second with qunari of course i could see peoples who could find qunari better chance than they have now. I doubt that for lower social classes qun would be bad. 

It would be bad for the mages who have yet to be born.

Only mages deserve sympathy now?

Anyway, if the mages all die it would be worse for a Thedas in the event of a Qunari invasion but they could still win eventually. The Qunari overextended themselves in the last war, conquering all Thedas is  pretty far beyond their strength unless they develop something game changing. Like tanks or something.

Way to take a throwaway comment and make it look like I sympathize with mages and only mages, regardless of your knowledge on where I stand on every other race, class, or caste.

Ah well. I don't know if the Qunari will overextend themselves or not. I don't know the extent of their forces. Only that they've been preparing a return for centuries, and it's been alluded by Sten and the Arishok both that it's happening soon.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 22 septembre 2013 - 11:21 .

[Rinshikai10]

That is try true Dragonflight288, I get the feeling we will see some invading Qunari in DAI.

I wonder if Justinia could try and negotiate with the Arishok (possibly using Leliana if they traveled with the Warden) should the possible invasion reach Orlais.

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

That is try true Dragonflight288, I get the feeling we will see some invading Qunari in DAI.

I wonder if Justinia could try and negotiate with the Arishok (possibly using Leliana if they traveled with the Warden) should the possible invasion reach Orlais.

I honestly don't think negotiations will work. Alistair talks about the treaty the people of Thedas and the Qunari signed, and Sten says it was merely a piece of paper meant to delay the fighting. No more.

The qun is completely uncompromising. If an Arishok feels his role is to invade, he will invade. There won't be talks, there won't be treaties. They simply would.

I expect that if they do invade, they'll get a lot of converts from city-elves, people in the slums, or people who were like Seamus Dumar. Many will be killed or forced to convert, and things will be pretty crappy for anyone who wants to make decisions for themselves and find their own path.

On the brighter side, there's in-game evidence and lore that points out that the Qunari are more open-minded than the Chantry or many human-controlled lands when it comes to various races like elves and dwarves. Tallis is completely loyal to the Qun because it treats her as an elf completely equal to a human, but her race in human lands consistently holds her back regardless of skill, because of prejudice.

[Rinshikai10]

Well, depending on how DAO was played. It could be possible for Sten if Arishok to owe a dept to the Warden. (Happens at the end of game)

From what I remember from DA2 qunari always pay their debts.

It could give Justinia as reason to find the Warden. (Just a crazy theory from the top of my head)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He's right about the Qunari being uncompromising. It's their goal to bring all the bas to the Qun because they sincerely think it's for everyone's benefit. Even Sten's debt could never be something like preventing an invasion altogether because it's basically a demand of the Qun. I think Sten's perspective on the issue is something like "I hope we don't meet in battle when the Qunari do return."

The Qunari would only engage in diplomatic talks if they genuinely thought they needed something from the rest of Thedas that they couldn't get themselves and situations like that are pretty rare. The Qunari signed the Llomeryn Accord in order to spare the Rivaini people further suffering in the New Exalted Marches.