1605 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

I think she was a tad too sympathetic to the mages in Asunder. Really, why did she help the Enchanters escape? What for? Did she really think she could get away with that? She certainly has a hand in the Mage-Templar war.

I have to agree with a friend of mine about her.

Sylvanius wrote...

I do not like the Divine : A traitor to the Chantry. Make reforms, okay, okay to help mages but to support them to fight the Templars, to help them become an independent entity ? She screwed up. A real treachery, she deserves to be stoned, executed by the Orlesian people. Isn't she aware of the bomb she just let go ? And if the mages out of control decides to act like Anders ? No compromises like he said ! If they decide to explode all chanteries in Thedas, or many of them to make sure that never again mages will submite to Andraste or any religion, a threat to them? Fool woman.

Speak on it. Truth.

I wonder who's going to hire the hitman after that blunder. The templars and seekers? Some members of the clergy who have already taken issue with her rule? Empress Celene who's upset with her anyhow from the sound of some of the books speculations? Was that magical blast in the leaks orchestrated by her own people?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 20 avril 2013 - 06:49 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Damnit, I was hoping for the chance to Murder Knife the Divine myself in DAI.

[lil yonce]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Damnit, I was hoping for the chance to Murder Knife the Divine myself in DAI.

Some of the actions/speculation in Asunder says the Templars/Clergy are trying hard to beat you to it.

[KiwiQuiche]

Youth4Ever wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Damnit, I was hoping for the chance to Murder Knife the Divine myself in DAI.

Some of the actions/speculation in Asunder says the Templars/Clergy are trying hard to beat you to it.

OH ARE THEY

[windzero]

since some elements of DA are based on rel life historical event&culture,and the divines are loosely based on popes i think there would be something like the Borgias plot at some point.

[Senya]

I think that you will probably be working under her with the option to betray her later in the game either in favor for the extremists on the Templar or Mages' side. Her survival, I think, might be a precondition for an equilibrium between the two.

That, or at the peace negotiations at the beginning, she is killed, which makes things even worse.

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

Why? If you don't like her don't post. You don't need to force your views into every topic.

Not forcing a view, just sharing one.

Divine Justina V doesn't seem pro-mage to me; her willingness to sack Kirkwall if the mages gained their independence and her concessions to keep the mages under the boot heel of the Chantry give me a different impression. She seems firmly pro-Chantry.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Why? If you don't like her don't post. You don't need to force your views into every topic.

Not forcing a view, just sharing one.

Divine Justina V doesn't seem pro-mage to me; her willingness to sack Kirkwall if the mages gained their independence and her concessions to keep the mages under the boot heel of the Chantry give me a different impression. She seems firmly pro-Chantry.

I can't help but laugh.  A pro-Chantry Divine?  How can this be?!

In any case, I'd say 'pro-mage' is relative.  One can advocate reforms in the system without wanting to abolish the system altogether.  It isn't an 'all-or-nothing' situation.

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not forcing a view, just sharing one.

Divine Justina V doesn't seem pro-mage to me; her willingness to sack Kirkwall if the mages gained their independence and her concessions to keep the mages under the boot heel of the Chantry give me a different impression. She seems firmly pro-Chantry. 

I can't help but laugh.  A pro-Chantry Divine?  How can this be?!

In any case, I'd say 'pro-mage' is relative.  One can advocate reforms in the system without wanting to abolish the system altogether.  It isn't an 'all-or-nothing' situation. 

Although wanting to institute minor reforms to keep the mages under Chantry control doesn't necessarily make her pro-mage, either.

[lil yonce]

She helped the First Enchanters escape which was too much in my opinion. It was one of the many WTF??? moments of Asunder. She needed to stay in her lane. She was too Pro-Mage-- way over did it.

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

She helped the First Enchanters escape which was too much in my opinion. It was one of the many WTF??? moments of Asunder. She needed to stay in her lane. She was too Pro-Mage-- way over did it.

She also turned a blind eye to Meredith ruling Kirkwall and she wanted to sack the entire city if the mages became independent of the Chantry. Wanting to keep the status quo of having mages in servitude to the Chantry doesn't necessarily make her an advocate of the mages.

[Vit246]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

She helped the First Enchanters escape which was too much in my opinion. It was one of the many WTF??? moments of Asunder. She needed to stay in her lane. She was too Pro-Mage-- way over did it.

She also turned a blind eye to Meredith ruling Kirkwall and she wanted to sack the entire city if the mages became independent of the Chantry. Wanting to keep the status quo of having mages in servitude to the Chantry doesn't necessarily make her an advocate of the mages.

Is it me....or does the right hand and the left hand not know what the other is doing?

I'm talking about the writers.

I have never read any DA books. And I don't like being forced to rely on outside sources. I only played the games. I was never under the impression that the Divine was ever meaningfully Pro-Mage. All I know from the game is that she was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall. Not just a Right of Annulment, an Exalted March. That kinda tells me about her stance on mages.

I really do hate inconsistency.

Modifié par Vit246, 22 avril 2013 - 02:34 .

[rapscallioness]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

 Around two to three months ago, we learned that the Divine in Dawn of the Seeker is actually Beatrix III. Who was nearly killed by Blood Mages using dragons.

snip

that's something, isn't it? asssination by dragon. luv it. and then that whole scene in DotS. the high dragon is bearing down on the divine, then whap! it gets blindsided by that smaller dragon.

all in slo-mo.

as far as dorothea..maybe beatrice wasn't aware of her sympathies to mages? or maybe dorothea is a blood mage. and this is all some plan to free all the mages?

the stroke business is rather dodgy, and the whole from rev. mother promotion. it is suspect.

maybe dorothea has/had a secret lover that's a mage. maybe she's a mage (not blood mage).

hope we get to meet her.

[rapscallioness]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

She helped the First Enchanters escape which was too much in my opinion. It was one of the many WTF??? moments of Asunder. She needed to stay in her lane. She was too Pro-Mage-- way over did it.

She also turned a blind eye to Meredith ruling Kirkwall and she wanted to sack the entire city if the mages became independent of the Chantry. Wanting to keep the status quo of having mages in servitude to the Chantry doesn't necessarily make her an advocate of the mages.

in servitude to the chantry, or in servitude to her? huh?

maybe she's trying to start sum nwo of mages, but sometimes they get outta line. and she's gotta crack that whip. lol!

tho, she was ready to storm kirkwall....hmmm...maybe these mages in kirkwall--the revolutionary groups--were messing w/her plans. trying to tke control themselves..

bah, this is a character that, so far, is still very able to go in so many diff ways.  so many things abt her re contradictions.

[Silfren]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

 Around two to three months ago, we learned that the Divine in Dawn of the Seeker is actually Beatrix III. Who was nearly killed by Blood Mages using dragons.

After Grand Cleric Callista, Knight Commander Martel, and Frenic fail in their attempt to kill her. Beatrix becomes very fearful of Mages, regardless if they are from the Circle or not, as shown in Asunder.

This makes me wonder why she would put Dorothea forward, if she was only a Revered Mother.From my understanding the Grand Clerics are the only people eligible for the position. However, I could be wrong.

Her dying of a stroke also seems a little strange. I know that she was old but it feel like fowl play was involved by Dorothea.

Why would a Divine fearful of Mages, select a Divine that is sympathetic to them?

I wonder how this plays out in DA3I.

Any thoughts?

Why is it you think her dying of a stroke was strange, and why do you think Dorothea was involved?  I'd prefer to have an actual basis for those ideas than just "feelings."

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

She helped the First Enchanters escape which was too much in my opinion. It was one of the many WTF??? moments of Asunder. She needed to stay in her lane. She was too Pro-Mage-- way over did it.

She also turned a blind eye to Meredith ruling Kirkwall and she wanted to sack the entire city if the mages became independent of the Chantry. Wanting to keep the status quo of having mages in servitude to the Chantry doesn't necessarily make her an advocate of the mages.

Anywhere else in the world, say Ferelden or Nevarra, and I'd concede an overreaction.  Kirkwall?  Nukes would not have been an overreaction.  Recall that for years, even before Meredith or Justina, Val Royeaux would have been getting report after report about how Kirkwall was basically a lunatic factory.  The place created crazies, apostates and abominations like it had been built for it.  Which, you know, it might have been.  With the fall of the Starkhaven Circle and the influx of Ferelden refugees, a bad situation got progressively worse over time.  And she doesn't just declare an Exalted March based on long distance reports or whim.  She sends one of her most trusted agents to assess the situation in person and determine if it will be necessary before making any decision.

Given that we, as players, know that it was as bad or worse than any report she would have gotten, and that the location was at least partially at fault, razing the city to the bedrock and moving everyone down the coast to rebuild would probably have improved things immeasurably.

Modifié par TK514, 22 avril 2013 - 02:45 .

[Silfren]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

She was willing to sack Kirkwall if the mages emancipated themselves from Meredith's dictatorship. .

Willing to? Or pressured to?
Contrary to popular belief, being the leader of a society does not mean you're free to dictate things at your whim. Those that do tend to have short reigns and earn the moniker "the mad".
Just because she ordered an exalted march on Kirkwall does not mean she's not pro-mage. It was certainly what the Chantry's conservative and militant side desired. Was it what she desired though? Or did she just not want to cross them right then and there? A small concession to prevent them from noticing the big change coming?

Big ships do not turn swiftly. And the Chantry is a huge ship indeed.

What you say is true, and it's also true that Justinia has been plagued from the start with resentment for not being old and biddable as the previous Divine.  So she has to play things very carefully.  It could well be that she and Leliana had something else planned.  We see in Asunder that there has been scheming between them and, of all people, Wynne, and I think that relationship has been going on longer than we've been shown. 

Still, it's hard to reconcile the fact that she was, from what we were shown, planning an Exalted March on Kirkwall to solve its mage problem. 

[LobselVith8]

Vit246 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

She also turned a blind eye to Meredith ruling Kirkwall and she wanted to sack the entire city if the mages became independent of the Chantry. Wanting to keep the status quo of having mages in servitude to the Chantry doesn't necessarily make her an advocate of the mages.

Is it me....or does the right hand and the left hand not know what the other is doing?

I'm talking about the writers.

I have never read any DA books. And I don't like being forced to rely on outside sources. I only played the games. I was never under the impression that the Divine was ever meaningfully Pro-Mage. All I know from the game is that she was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall. Not just a Right of Annulment, an Exalted March[/u]. That kinda tells me about her stance on mages.

I really do hate inconsistency. 

That's the impression I got with Malcolm Hawke's conflicting backstories. With Divine Justina V, I still don't see her in a good light. Nothing in Asunder changed my view about the Chantry being a monstrous, morally repugnant organization that should be abolished or my opinion about Divine Justina V being pro-Chantry.

What was done to the Dales and the elves, as well as the plight of the mages, has given some fans a very negative view of the Chantry of Andraste. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the developers wanted to soften fans on the Chantry. That would explain why Alistair's anti-Chantry, pro-templar revelation about being able to use templar abilities without lyrium (which he said the Chantry mandated to the templars to keep them addicted and under their control) was rectonned.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

She also turned a blind eye to Meredith ruling Kirkwall and she wanted to sack the entire city if the mages became independent of the Chantry. Wanting to keep the status quo of having mages in servitude to the Chantry doesn't necessarily make her an advocate of the mages.

Is it me....or does the right hand and the left hand not know what the other is doing?

I'm talking about the writers.

I have never read any DA books. And I don't like being forced to rely on outside sources. I only played the games. I was never under the impression that the Divine was ever meaningfully Pro-Mage. All I know from the game is that she was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall. Not just a Right of Annulment, an Exalted March[/u]. That kinda tells me about her stance on mages.

I really do hate inconsistency. 

That's the impression I got with Malcolm Hawke's conflicting backstories. With Divine Justina V, I still don't see her in a good light. Nothing in Asunder changed my view about the Chantry being a monstrous, morally repugnant organization that should be abolished or my opinion about Divine Justina V being pro-Chantry.

What was done to the Dales and the elves, as well as the plight of the mages, has given some fans a very negative view of the Chantry of Andraste. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the developers wanted to soften fans on the Chantry. That would explain why Alistair's anti-Chantry, pro-templar revelation about being able to use templar abilities without lyrium (which he said the Chantry mandated to the templars to keep them addicted and under their control) was rectonned.

I definitely agree that Bioware hasn't done a great job at keeping things morally ambiguous; the Chantry's determination to maintain itself as a religious-military-political institution at all costs rather kills my sympathy.  Personally, I'd like to see the Chantry split into several factions, becoming too internally unstable to continue to wield state power and becoming a purely religious body.  We actually have the groundwork for this to happen.  There are always multiple fronts in this kind of conflict.  Barring all else, several factions could split from the main Chantry, and it won't have the means to act against them.

[KENNY4753]

She's a blood mage people. I am willing to bet on it.

[rapscallioness]

well, all i know from the game is that there is some talk abt her past and how she rose to power so quickly.

the whole being soft on mages--i haven't really picked up on that in game. in fact, there's not that much there abt her.

i know she likes exalted marches, which is typical divine stuff. she seemed like every other divine.

[Silfren]

rapscallioness wrote...

well, all i know from the game is that there is some talk abt her past and how she rose to power so quickly.

the whole being soft on mages--i haven't really picked up on that in game. in fact, there's not that much there abt her.

i know she likes exalted marches, which is typical divine stuff. she seemed like every other divine.

That's because it's not in the game.  You don't see any sympathy from Divine Justinia until you read Asunder.

[rapscallioness]

perhaps they're setting us up for something.

edit: i'd prefer to be set up for it in the game. if it has any impact on the game actually. i'd like to meet her and have her be a fascinating charcter. regrdless if i agree with her.

Modifié par rapscallioness, 22 avril 2013 - 03:24 .

[Ihatebadgames]

Looks like the Chantry is headed for a Reformation.Who is being set up in a Martin Luther role?

[rapscallioness]

Ihatebadgames wrote...

Looks like the Chantry is headed for a Reformation.Who is being set up in a Martin Luther role?

*chuckles*