1605 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Wulfram wrote...

It doesn't make sense for Leliana to have been hanging out in a backwater chantry for a couple of years just in case some warden might come along, so that she can act like a crazy person and thus get recruited.

Which is why I think she saw her chance, and took it the moment the opportunity came.

[Angrywolves]

I presume we'll find out in DAI if it was happenstance for her to join the warden and be in Ferelden or if she was a chantry spy all along.

[TheKomandorShepard]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

Whew, this was difficult to decipher.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Well she leaves only if you are di*** or destroy ashes which with that she works for chantry rathers would be understandable and how she is naive about chantry and their morality.

Generally, the point of an infiltrator is to spy, not to tell the person they're infiltrating that they're a bad person and run off.

You mean in all her 4 fates she becomes hand of divine when a she died you din't take her to your team?

What does that have to do with her owing Justinia and being called upon to be her agent?

I have no idea what her survival if you killed her means either, but I doubt it had anything to do with Justinia's secret Lazarus project that she'd only have access to if she was a spai all along. If anything, it has to do with them being too lazy to write her into anything else. 

She wears seeker amulet and bam then she is seeker at least wear their armor. 

Gaider even said she isn't a Seeker. 

Well that she is spy doesn't mean that she have watch like you are dacing carelessly when you kill orphans and why i doubt that it was about warden more morrigan or something else and hanging around with group allowed her to get something.

First how Dorothea even knew that she is alive if we killed her even hawke know that she is dead and judging by leliana message in doa if she is romanced that dorothea wanted to see her not leliana her.

I know that she isn't seeker i mean more that she works with them wearing their armor and then she had their amulet.

I don't say that i m right because that just theory and even if had grounds like indoctrination theory that don't have to be in case everything depends on devs.

[Rinshikai10]

@TheKomandorShepard

When were Dorothea and Beatrix close? I don't ever recall them being known are friends let alone acquaintances.

I have heard the Leliana was a spy all along theory more then once, and the major flaws I see with this comes to mind after reading Asunder. If Dorothea did send Leliana to Lothering to wait for the Wardens, how could she not foresee the Mage Templar problem before it got out of hand?

In Asunder she does not show foreknowledge that the Spy all along theory would have us believe.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard

When were Dorothea and Beatrix close? I don't ever recall them being known are friends let alone acquaintances.

I have heard the Leliana was a spy all along theory more then once, and the major flaws I see with this comes to mind after reading Asunder. If Dorothea did send Leliana to Lothering to wait for the Wardens, how could she not foresee the Mage Templar problem before it got out of hand?

In Asunder she does not show foreknowledge that the Spy all along theory would have us believe.

Well beatrix choosed her so they must know each other i doubt that she choosed her just because giving that dorothea try manipulate leliana feeling to get papers in ls.

Maybe she knew like beatrix but coulnd't prevent that or didn't want to do that she didn't liked mages acording to leliana in sebastian dlc then after mages rebelion started pretend tolerance very suspicious.

In last sentecne you are talking about leliana or divine?

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard

When were Dorothea and Beatrix close? I don't ever recall them being known are friends let alone acquaintances.

I have heard the Leliana was a spy all along theory more then once, and the major flaws I see with this comes to mind after reading Asunder. If Dorothea did send Leliana to Lothering to wait for the Wardens, how could she not foresee the Mage Templar problem before it got out of hand?

In Asunder she does not show foreknowledge that the Spy all along theory would have us believe.

You realize that the Leliana as a "spy all along" isn't necessarily based on Dorothea existing. First, at the time of DAO, Dorothea is still a chantry Mother somewhere in Orlais.  Second, beside dead Leliana, all DAO ending has her doing some high profile missions for the Chantry (either, deep road or sacred ashes) or being asked to meet the Grand Cleric (Awakening letter if you romanced her). This is still before Dorothea get named Divine. Everything point to Leliana being a highly regarded Chantry agent of some kind before Dorothea became Justinia.

You are also under the impression that Asunder events were not "as planned" (i.e. Dorothea isn't the puppeteer, but a puppet).

[Reznore57]

Well If I remember correctly Leliana (at least in her DLC) was already close to Divine Justinia before the Blight.
I'm not sure she was a high profile spy when she was in Lothering though ...
I mean you don't sent a spy in some village in the middle of nowhere.Hoping that maybe a blight was going to happen and two wardens will come.

I don't think Leliana lied much , she was a bard in Orlais ,Justinia saved her when she was trapped ...She had some kind of epiphany .Went in Lothering to hide ,and think about the whole faith stuff.Then the Blight and the wardens came and she decided to get back into action.

After the Blight , Justinia hearing about her being involved in those event , probably called her .
And Leliana got a job as right (or left) hand of the Divine.

[dragonflight288]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well If I remember correctly Leliana (at least in her DLC) was already close to Divine Justinia before the Blight.
I'm not sure she was a high profile spy when she was in Lothering though ...
I mean you don't sent a spy in some village in the middle of nowhere.Hoping that maybe a blight was going to happen and two wardens will come.

I don't think Leliana lied much , she was a bard in Orlais ,Justinia saved her when she was trapped ...She had some kind of epiphany .Went in Lothering to hide ,and think about the whole faith stuff.Then the Blight and the wardens came and she decided to get back into action.

After the Blight , Justinia hearing about her being involved in those event , probably called her .
And Leliana got a job as right (or left) hand of the Divine.

In the DLC, Leliana only met Dorethea for the first time after Marjolaine betrayed her. She was completely unmoved by the Chantry and its teachings until she was taken care of by the Chantry and aided in her recovery.

[azarhal]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well If I remember correctly Leliana (at least in her DLC) was already close to Divine Justinia before the Blight.
I'm not sure she was a high profile spy when she was in Lothering though ...
I mean you don't sent a spy in some village in the middle of nowhere.Hoping that maybe a blight was going to happen and two wardens will come.

I don't think Leliana lied much , she was a bard in Orlais ,Justinia saved her when she was trapped ...She had some kind of epiphany .Went in Lothering to hide ,and think about the whole faith stuff.Then the Blight and the wardens came and she decided to get back into action.

After the Blight , Justinia hearing about her being involved in those event , probably called her .
And Leliana got a job as right (or left) hand of the Divine.

Mother Dorothea became Divine Justinia in 9:34, 3 years after the Blight ended. It's unclear where she was a Chantry Mother though. Leliana's backstory is confusing because the story she tells in DAO doesn't match Leliana's Song story (switched from Orlais to Ferelden and events are slightly different as well).

Beatrix was Divine in DAO,Awakening and DA2 untit Act 2 begining.

[Rinshikai10]

azarhal wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard

When were Dorothea and Beatrix close? I don't ever recall them being known are friends let alone acquaintances.

I have heard the Leliana was a spy all along theory more then once, and the major flaws I see with this comes to mind after reading Asunder. If Dorothea did send Leliana to Lothering to wait for the Wardens, how could she not foresee the Mage Templar problem before it got out of hand?

In Asunder she does not show foreknowledge that the Spy all along theory would have us believe.

You realize that the Leliana as a "spy all along" isn't necessarily based on Dorothea existing. First, at the time of DAO, Dorothea is still a chantry Mother somewhere in Orlais.  Second, beside dead Leliana, all DAO ending has her doing some high profile missions for the Chantry (either, deep road or sacred ashes) or being asked to meet the Grand Cleric (Awakening letter if you romanced her). This is still before Dorothea get named Divine. Everything point to Leliana being a highly regarded Chantry agent of some kind before Dorothea became Justinia.

You are also under the impression that Asunder events were not "as planned" (i.e. Dorothea isn't the puppeteer, but a puppet).

Willing to elaborate? It sounds like you have a theory.

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

azarhal wrote...

[skip]

You are also under the impression that Asunder events were not "as planned" (i.e. Dorothea isn't the puppeteer, but a puppet).

Willing to elaborate? It sounds like you have a theory.

Not really a theory, more of a looking at all possibilities. You only see "her plan blackfired on her face and the Templars left", while I also see the possibility that the plan was for the Templars to break from the Chantry since the start. And if that was the plan, it doesn't mean it came from Dorothea or even to her advantage.

Basically, what if the events in Asunder were the result of the "bad guy" in DAI?

[Rinshikai10]

Ah I see

I will admit that I see the events in Asunder a certain way. However, I am open to different views, and possibilities when evidence is shown to me.

I won't reject the possibility that the DAI antagonist is behind the chaos, but imo that feels like some ancient evil from the fade will be the cause of all the problems, rather then mortals fighting each other.

I may not like a character for having a certain view, but at the same time those views and flaws also make them believable. If someone is moving against Justinia, I personal would prefer it to be someone like Celene or Duke whats his name, rather then some dark evil force from the shadows.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 09 novembre 2013 - 03:30 .

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Ah I see

I will admit that I see the events in Asunder a certain way. However, I am open to different views, and possibilities when evidence is shown to me.

I won't reject the possibility that the DAI antagonist is behind the chaos, but imo that feels like some ancient evil from the fade will be the cause of all the problems, rather then mortals fighting each other.

I may not like a character for having a certain view, but at the same time those views and flaws also make them believable. If someone is moving against Justinia, I personal would prefer it to be someone like Celene or Duke whats his name, rather then some dark evil force from the shadows.

It may be possible that the DAI antagonist is responsible for arranging events so Lambert was there at the time. When they first show up at the White Spire, Evangeline is shocked to see Lord High Seeker Lambert in charge, and not the Knight-Vigilant templar.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Ah I see

I will admit that I see the events in Asunder a certain way. However, I am open to different views, and possibilities when evidence is shown to me.

I won't reject the possibility that the DAI antagonist is behind the chaos, but imo that feels like some ancient evil from the fade will be the cause of all the problems, rather then mortals fighting each other.

I may not like a character for having a certain view, but at the same time those views and flaws also make them believable. If someone is moving against Justinia, I personal would prefer it to be someone like Celene or Duke whats his name, rather then some dark evil force from the shadows.

It may be possible that the DAI antagonist is responsible for arranging events so Lambert was there at the time. When they first show up at the White Spire, Evangeline is shocked to see Lord High Seeker Lambert in charge, and not the Knight-Vigilant templar.

It was Knight Commander IIRC. But I remember that he was to leave control of the White Spire to Lambert because he had failed to account and stop the mage who had attacked the Divine.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Ah I see

I will admit that I see the events in Asunder a certain way. However, I am open to different views, and possibilities when evidence is shown to me.

I won't reject the possibility that the DAI antagonist is behind the chaos, but imo that feels like some ancient evil from the fade will be the cause of all the problems, rather then mortals fighting each other.

I may not like a character for having a certain view, but at the same time those views and flaws also make them believable. If someone is moving against Justinia, I personal would prefer it to be someone like Celene or Duke whats his name, rather then some dark evil force from the shadows.

It may be possible that the DAI antagonist is responsible for arranging events so Lambert was there at the time. When they first show up at the White Spire, Evangeline is shocked to see Lord High Seeker Lambert in charge, and not the Knight-Vigilant templar.

It was Knight Commander IIRC. But I remember that he was to leave control of the White Spire to Lambert because he had failed to account and stop the mage who had attacked the Divine.

Right.

[Rinshikai10]

azarhal wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

azarhal wrote...

[skip]

You are also under the impression that Asunder events were not "as planned" (i.e. Dorothea isn't the puppeteer, but a puppet).

Willing to elaborate? It sounds like you have a theory.

Not really a theory, more of a looking at all possibilities. You only see "her plan blackfired on her face and the Templars left", while I also see the possibility that the plan was for the Templars to break from the Chantry since the start. And if that was the plan, it doesn't mean it came from Dorothea or even to her advantage.

Basically, what if the events in Asunder were the result of the "bad guy" in DAI?

Now that I have had time to think about it, I'm starting to see another possibility. I remember that there are four great demons known as the forbidden ones that are said to have taught the Magus Blood magic, and revealed the fabric of the world to them.

I remember that in DAO Gaxkang the Unbound said that the Warden is being watch from a high point, after we find his beckons across the land.

While in DA2 Xebenkeck the Undying has Blood Magic tomes scattered across the Kirwall area.

I wonder if these two along with Imshael, and the Formless One are behind the fade tears?

Could there be a similar quest in Inquisition where its learned that Justinia and/or others are influenced by these four?

[Angrywolves]

I thought Loghain was influened by something .
Odd how the darkspawn knew to come up in the tower, when the beacon had to be lit.
shrugs.
I suppose other demons associated with Gaxkang could be responsible .
We know they can take human form and could infiltrate the chantry or the Orlesian leadership.

[Rinshikai10]

I have to wonder if Demons powerful as Gaxkang tried to infiltrate the Chantry, wouldn't the Templars or Seekers be able to sense them?

[dragonflight288]

Angrywolves wrote...

I thought Loghain was influened by something .

Paranoia. He saw Grey Wardens making deals with the darkspawn, specifically the Architect in the novel The Calling, when he was rescuing Maric from his Deep Road adventure with the Wardens.

Also his hatred of Orlais.

Odd how the darkspawn knew to come up in the tower, when the beacon had to be lit.
shrugs.

They were guided by the Archdemon, who could strategyize for them. Thing is, most people didn't think it was a Blight, rather just a large darkspawn raid, so didn't expect any tactics from the darkspawn.

I suppose other demons associated with Gaxkang could be responsible .
We know they can take human form and could infiltrate the chantry or the Orlesian leadership.

True. There's also a Pride Demon who possessed a non-mage ruler in the Free Marches in Dragon Age Legends.

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have to wonder if Demons powerful as Gaxkang tried to infiltrate the Chantry, wouldn't the Templars or Seekers be able to sense them?

Gaxkang: Eyes are on your Warden from very high vantage points. I cannot hide in your wake.

[Hellion Rex]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have to wonder if Demons powerful as Gaxkang tried to infiltrate the Chantry, wouldn't the Templars or Seekers be able to sense them?

I am thinking that the Formless One might be able to pull it off. It strikes me as a powerful shapeshifter, perhaps an even greater one than Gaxkang.

[Rinshikai10]

eluvianix wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have to wonder if Demons powerful as Gaxkang tried to infiltrate the Chantry, wouldn't the Templars or Seekers be able to sense them?

I am thinking that the Formless One might be able to pull it off. It strikes me as a powerful shapeshifter, perhaps an even greater one than Gaxkang.

The Formless One sounds like Flemeth to me. Evidence in game shows that she can be in more then one place at any given time. 

If a demon is influencing Justinia, I would think that it is more of an indirect method rather then a direct one,like an adviser really being a demon.

I'm starting to wonder if Justinia really did a 180 her views on Mages between DA2 and Asunder, or if I'm just seeing things.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 11 novembre 2013 - 02:50 .

[Rinshikai10]

@azarhal

So one possibility you see is this DAI enemy deliberately striping the Chantry and Justinia of their most powerful assets?

[Angrywolves]

If the Archdemon could strategize, then one would think Loghain wouldn't have been able to pull out of Ostagar so easily .
I remember LOTR and the blasted Palantirs (spelling ).
Sauron was able to influence anyone who had one, if I recall correctly .
shrugs.
Gaider is lead writer, so whether Leliana was in Lothering as a chantry spy, or not should come out in DAI as part of Laidlaw's efforts to clean up loose ends.

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@azarhal

So one possibility you see is this DAI enemy deliberately striping the Chantry and Justinia of their most powerful assets?

I see this in a totally different light actually. To me its look more like someone wanted the Templars split from the Chantry, so the Chantry couldn't reform them or stop them against their anti-mage vendetta. The point was to have a Templar vs Mage war, as opposed discussions and concessions (Justinia's path). Hence, "crazy" people being in charge on both side of the equation (Lambert and Fiona). Hell, I'm still wonder who's idea it was to name Lambert, a Tevinter Templar with a grudge against mages, head of the Seekers. That seems suspicious to me.

The point was to have chaos, that could only be achieved if the Chantry couldn't control either the Templars or Mages. Weakening the Chantry wasn't the goal, just a side effect. I expect Gaspard coming back from exile having a similar purpose (might not even be the real Gaspard at that).