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[TheButterflyEffect]

Her eagerness to launch crusades on people just because she doesn't like them makes me think of her as a villainous character.

[dragonflight288]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Her eagerness to launch crusades on people just because she doesn't like them makes me think of her as a villainous character.

Oh? When does she do that?

[Hellion Rex]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Her eagerness to launch crusades on people just because she doesn't like them makes me think of her as a villainous character.

Actually Elthina was the one who mentions the Exalted March, not Leliana. And Justinia's later personality and actions in Asunder contrast this "Exalted March" plan.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Her eagerness to launch crusades on people just because she doesn't like them makes me think of her as a villainous character.

Oh? When does she do that?

that post is probably in response to Elthina's assertion about the Divines's desire to "start an Exlated March". Leliana contrasts this by saying that she is watching, but not that she wants an actual Exalted March.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Her eagerness to launch crusades on people just because she doesn't like them makes me think of her as a villainous character.

Oh? When does she do that?

that post is probably in response to Elthina's assertion about the Divines's desire to "start an Exlated March". Leliana contrasts this by saying that she is watching, but not that she wants an actual Exalted March.

I know, I had a response similar to what you already said had he said that.

[TheButterflyEffect]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Her eagerness to launch crusades on people just because she doesn't like them makes me think of her as a villainous character.

Oh? When does she do that?

Well, she does contemplate one on the Dwarves in two possible DAO endings... yikes.

[dragonflight288]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Her eagerness to launch crusades on people just because she doesn't like them makes me think of her as a villainous character.

Oh? When does she do that?

Well, she does contemplate one on the Dwarves in two possible DAO endings... yikes.

That's not her. She's not Divine at that time. That'd likely be Divine Beatrix, or more likely, the Grand Clerics overall because Beatrix had become elderly and mostly a figurehead and didn't use much influence at all.

[Rinshikai10]

Sir JK wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@ Sir JK

Do we even know if Justinia wanted to turn the position of Divine to one of power? I get the impression that she already assumed that it was a position of power.

The second chapter of Asunder discusses this. Justinia is turning a few heads by attending social events and actually using her influence. Some people are not too happy about that. Not so much because they think the position should be a figurehead as much as that's what they're used to. Beatrix III was really old by the end of her 50 year tenure, she did not exert much influence at all.

I know that members of the Templars/Seekers and Clergy are not happy with her due to her views, but I don't really recall her using her influence other then to give that speech, which ultimately backfired.

I remember Leliana talking with the Knight Captain about influence, but that was more about the nobles not using theirs in the way Justinia thought they should use it. In all honesty I don't believe that the nobles really can what Justinia says.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Her eagerness to launch crusades on people just because she doesn't like them makes me think of her as a villainous character.

Oh? When does she do that?

Well, she does contemplate one on the Dwarves in two possible DAO endings... yikes.

That's not her. She's not Divine at that time. That'd likely be Divine Beatrix, or more likely, the Grand Clerics overall because Beatrix had become elderly and mostly a figurehead and didn't use much influence at all.

Indeed. Justinia did not ascend until 9:34 Dragon, four years after the Blight ended. I can certainly see the stupid Grand Cleric in Denerim getting annoyed by the dwarves creating a Circle of their own.

[Hellion Rex]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@ Sir JK

Do we even know if Justinia wanted to turn the position of Divine to one of power? I get the impression that she already assumed that it was a position of power.

The second chapter of Asunder discusses this. Justinia is turning a few heads by attending social events and actually using her influence. Some people are not too happy about that. Not so much because they think the position should be a figurehead as much as that's what they're used to. Beatrix III was really old by the end of her 50 year tenure, she did not exert much influence at all.

I know that members of the Templars/Seekers and Clergy are not happy with her due to her views, but I don't really recall her using her influence other then to give that speech, which ultimately backfired.

I remember Leliana talking with the Knight Captain about influence, but that was more about the nobles not using theirs in the way Justinia thought they should use it. In all honesty I don't believe that the nobles really can what Justinia says.

I agree entirely. I think Evangeline even comments on this fact.

[Rinshikai10]

Sometimes I just don't understand why Justinia says one thing but does the opposite later.

The speech at the masquerade is a prime example of what happens when a leader does not fully grasp the situation. I remember that one Mage calling her out after she had already disbanded the collage. Adding fuel to an already large fire.

I get the impression, she believed Wynne was on good terms with the Circle after she successfully stopped two separation attempts. However, in reality, it appears that Wynne is a trader in many Mages eyes after she convinced the collage not to separate, even after what happens in Kirkwall.

This is just my opinion a this point, and sorry if I'm repeating things that I have already said.

[dragonflight288]

it appears that Wynne is a traitor in many Mages eyes after she convinced the collage not to separate, even after what happens in Kirkwall.

Fixed.

Trader's are merchants.

[Rinshikai10]

Thanks dragonflight288. I hate when that happens. 

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 20 novembre 2013 - 03:04 .

[Rinshikai10]

I have a question for the more experienced posters on the forum.

I couple pages back, I tried to insert a table (Microsoft Word) that showed what I believed to be the Chantry chain of command. The objective was trying to show where Justinia and the four main groups under her command had authority.

My question is, is it possible to insert a table in the forums or not?

[Wulfram]

I'd probably take a screenshot and then upload it somewhere.

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have a question for the more experienced posters on the forum.

I couple pages back, I tried to insert a table (Microsoft Word) that showed what I believed to be the Chantry chain of command. The objective was trying to show where Justinia and the four main groups under her command had authority.

My question is, is it possible to insert a table in the forums or not?

I'd probably make the table on another program, save that program, then copy and past that table here, then around it put [ img ] [ / img ] without the spaces.

[Sir JK]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Sometimes I just don't understand why Justinia says one thing but does the opposite later.

The speech at the masquerade is a prime example of what happens when a leader does not fully grasp the situation. I remember that one Mage calling her out after she had already disbanded the collage. Adding fuel to an already large fire.

I get the impression, she believed Wynne was on good terms with the Circle after she successfully stopped two separation attempts. However, in reality, it appears that Wynne is a trader in many Mages eyes after she convinced the collage not to separate, even after what happens in Kirkwall.

This is just my opinion a this point, and sorry if I'm repeating things that I have already said.

My guess would be that there's more to it than we've seen.

The speech seems to be her revealing her agenda, announcing to the people of power her goals and thus by extent doing some fishing. Both for people that takes the bait and are actually willing to support her, and also for people that reject it. It's probably also a bit of testing the ice, to see how much the nobility is about to resist the Divine actually exerting some influence again.
Jeannot however sees her statement as hypocritical, and indeed, if all one knows of her policy is that she closed down the only venue of communication and autonomy mages had (which is pretty much our position as well).

So the question is why she ordered the Conclave disbanded. It's clearly something she did not discuss with Fiona (or, alternatively, something Fiona does not tell the rest of the college nor us as audience). Is it ignorance? A mistake? Or something else?
Perhaps the reason she shut it down was to prevent the crisis from rearing it's ugly head that soon? That she was forced to act or she'd completely lose control over the Chantry's conservative faction and be rendered completely and utterly powerless?
All speculation of course... but we really cannot conclude if it was a mistake of hers or not until we know why she did it.

As for her believing Wynne was popular. No, I doubt it. Justinia seems aware the mages aren't too happy about their lot and it does not take a genius to figure out that anyone protecting the status quo wouldn't be popular. I think Wynne is simply a mage Justinia thinks she can trust/use... as it turns out... she's mostly correct, Wynne does not seem to actively undermine Justinia or go against her orders/wishes very often... if it wasn't for a wrench called Rhys being thrown into the works.

[Rinshikai10]

You make some great points Sir JK.

My one argument would be if Justinia knows that Wynne was not popular with the Mages. Then why use her at all? I know that Wynne shares views that are similar to the Divines, but if she's been losing the Circles respect, (Libertarians as well as many Aequitarians are starting to doubt her at this point.) wouldn't she become less useful for Justinia's long term goals?

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

You make some great points Sir JK.

My one argument would be if Justinia knows that Wynne was not popular with the Mages. Then why use her at all? I know that Wynne shares views that are similar to the Divines, but if she's been losing the Circles respect, (Libertarians as well as many Aequitarians are starting to doubt her at this point.) wouldn't she become less useful for Justinia's long term goals?

Probably because Wynne is rather predictable in behavior and where she stands. But when Rhys entered the picture and was specifically targeted, no one who knew Wynne would've thought her capable of blowing up the way she did.

It's possible Justinia also had some hand in the Loyalist fraternities, not just Wynne who was an Aequitarian with Loyalist leanings, and things may have resolved themselves as they had the previous two times.

It's not Wynne or the mages I think that Justinia underestimated, wait, scratch that, some mages were severly underestimated like Fiona or Adrian, but Lambert and his paranoia of mages is the person I think she underestimated the most.

[Rinshikai10]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

You make some great points Sir JK.

My one argument would be if Justinia knows that Wynne was not popular with the Mages. Then why use her at all? I know that Wynne shares views that are similar to the Divines, but if she's been losing the Circles respect, (Libertarians as well as many Aequitarians are starting to doubt her at this point.) wouldn't she become less useful for Justinia's long term goals?

Probably because Wynne is rather predictable in behavior and where she stands. But when Rhys entered the picture and was specifically targeted, no one who knew Wynne would've thought her capable of blowing up the way she did.

It's possible Justinia also had some hand in the Loyalist fraternities, not just Wynne who was an Aequitarian with Loyalist leanings, and things may have resolved themselves as they had the previous two times.

It's not Wynne or the mages I think that Justinia underestimated, wait, scratch that, some mages were severly underestimated like Fiona or Adrian, but Lambert and his paranoia of mages is the person I think she underestimated the most.

That is very true, but at the same time that is as much a asset as a hindrance. Justinia knows Wynnes views, but so does everyone else.  I don't believe that Wynne is a constant liar (like a certain Bard), but I think she overestimates her abilities, and how much sway she has by the time of Asunder.

I think Wynne is starting to go through what Anders and Justice went though. The spirit is being corrupted by Wynnes faith in herself, slowly turning into pride.


I definitely agree with you that she underestimated just how bad things really are.

[Angrywolves]

well Lambert has to go.

[dragonflight288]

I think Wynne is starting to go through what Anders and Justice went though. The spirit is being corrupted by Wynnes faith in herself, slowly turning into pride.

Doesn't matter now because Wynne is dead and that spirit now possesses Evangeline.

We'll have to see how that changes things.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think Wynne is starting to go through what Anders and Justice went though. The spirit is being corrupted by Wynnes faith in herself, slowly turning into pride.

Doesn't matter now because Wynne is dead and that spirit now possesses Evangeline.

We'll have to see how that changes things.

I wonder if having a spirit within her will amplify her abilities...

[Rinshikai10]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think Wynne is starting to go through what Anders and Justice went though. The spirit is being corrupted by Wynnes faith in herself, slowly turning into pride.

Doesn't matter now because Wynne is dead and that spirit now possesses Evangeline.

We'll have to see how that changes things.

I wonder if having a spirit within her will amplify her abilities...

Its possible if we see her in DAI. Maybe she won't need Lyrium anymore, due to having the Spirit of Faith to draw power from.

[Hellion Rex]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think Wynne is starting to go through what Anders and Justice went though. The spirit is being corrupted by Wynnes faith in herself, slowly turning into pride.

Doesn't matter now because Wynne is dead and that spirit now possesses Evangeline.

We'll have to see how that changes things.

I wonder if having a spirit within her will amplify her abilities...

Its possible if we see her in DAI. Maybe she won't need Lyrium anymore, due to having the Spirit of Faith to draw power from.

That would be really cool. If we do not see her as a companion, I hope we get to see her and the spirit in action.