1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think Wynne is starting to go through what Anders and Justice went though. The spirit is being corrupted by Wynnes faith in herself, slowly turning into pride.

Doesn't matter now because Wynne is dead and that spirit now possesses Evangeline.

We'll have to see how that changes things.

I wonder if having a spirit within her will amplify her abilities...

Its possible if we see her in DAI. Maybe she won't need Lyrium anymore, due to having the Spirit of Faith to draw power from.

That would be really cool. If we do not see her as a companion, I hope we get to see her and the spirit in action.

I'm almost sure she doesn't need lyrium anymore. I believe that lyrium isn't only a source of magic energy, but also serves as a catalyst in enforcing the connection someone has with The Fade and that templars that go through windrawal are have their body, mind and souls affected by the weakening of this connection.With the spirit , her connection is enforced despite the fact that the spirit now lives solely inside of her.If you want to better understand what I'm saying read my post on the lower part of this thread (including the quotes ).

She'll probably something like a spirit warrior. I wonder if she'll keep in touch with Leliana or Justinia.

[Sir JK]

It's not
Wynne or the mages I think that Justinia underestimated, wait, scratch
that, some mages were severly underestimated like Fiona or Adrian, but
Lambert and his paranoia of mages is the person I think she
underestimated the most.

Not sure about that actually... After all... Wynne did send her findings through the sending stones and the Divine happened to have one herself. That does sound like a precaution to me. She's also trying to appoint Evangeline (whom she figures would be loyal) to be the Knight Commander in charge of White Spire (and by extent, that may very well mean all templars period). In the audience she also seems to know how to play him very well.

It does look like Lambert surprised her perhaps... but then again... her response came very quickly too, didn't it?

The more I discuss this the more I'm starting to think that maye there wasn't so much mistakes that brought everything to a head as much as a gamble that did not quite succeed. That time ran out and she had to play with the hand she had or not at all.

Rinshikai10 wrote...

That is very true, but at the same time that is as much a asset as a hindrance. Justinia knows Wynnes views, but so does everyone else.  I don't believe that Wynne is a constant liar (like a certain Bard), but I think she overestimates her abilities, and how much sway she has by the time of Asunder.

Then again, you don't drop assets until they become liabilites. Wynne may be seen as a traitor to some, but most mages probably still trusts her motives more than they'd trust Justinia's. Wynne may not be an ace, sure, but sometimes you can win with a hand of fives as well.

I'm fairly certain that all the big shots had one another pegged down fairly well. Justinia knew that Fiona was likely to try something, hence her reluctance to call a conclave. She also knew Lambert was likely to try something, hence her sending stone and quick reactions. Lambert knew that he could not trust Justinia nor the mages, hence his actions and taking control of White Spire. Fiona knew that she was not likely to get a new conclave and that Lambert was not likely to sit still if given even the slightest reason to act. so she had to act quickly as to not lose out to Justinia's and Lambert's much greater resources.

Noone saw a free radical named Adrian come though. Not surprising really. Yet one could successfully argue that it was Adrian that brought the circles down. Everyone just, unknowingly, set the stage for her.

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think Wynne is starting to go through what Anders and Justice went though. The spirit is being corrupted by Wynnes faith in herself, slowly turning into pride.

Doesn't matter now because Wynne is dead and that spirit now possesses Evangeline.

We'll have to see how that changes things.

I wonder if having a spirit within her will amplify her abilities...

Its possible if we see her in DAI. Maybe she won't need Lyrium anymore, due to having the Spirit of Faith to draw power from.

That would be really cool. If we do not see her as a companion, I hope we get to see her and the spirit in action.

I'm almost sure she doesn't need lyrium anymore. I believe that lyrium isn't only a source of magic energy, but also serves as a catalyst in enforcing the connection someone has with The Fade and that templars that go through windrawal are have their body, mind and souls affected by the weakening of this connection.With the spirit , her connection is enforced despite the fact that the spirit now lives solely inside of her.If you want to better understand what I'm saying read my post on the lower part of this thread (including the quotes ).

She'll probably something like a spirit warrior. I wonder if she'll keep in touch with Leliana or Justinia.

It would be interesting if she became a bodyguard to Justinia, along with Justinia. I hope we get to see Justinia as well.

[Rinshikai10]

I have my doubts that Evangeline would become the bodyguard of the Divine. In order to do that, she would need to abandon the Mages.

Plus Leliana is basically Justinia's body guard, and I'm betting the only agent she fully trusts.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 24 novembre 2013 - 06:22 .

[Hellion Rex]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have my doubts that Evangeline would become the bodyguard of the Divine. In order to do that, she would need to abandon the Mages.

Plus Leliana is basically Justinia's body guard, and I'm better the only agent she fully trusts.

Fair enough.

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

It would be interesting if she became a bodyguard to Justinia, along with Justinia. I hope we get to see Justinia as well.

I doubt it. Considering the mages situation and the crisis they face, I think that she's going to be the right hand of Rhys and she'll help him relive the tension that might accumulate ( ifyouknowwhatimean:whistle: ).

Maybe,depending on our decisions, they will end up as consiliers for Justinia..or they'll die.

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have my doubts that Evangeline would become the bodyguard of the Divine. In order to do that, she would need to abandon the Mages.

Plus Leliana is basically Justinia's body guard, and I'm betting the only agent she fully trusts.

Not necessarily.

If the mages as a collective are smart, they'll approach the Chantry to form an alliance. Up to the point of Asunder, the mages have been under the the templars and the Chantry, not equals. Now that they've declared independence and the templars have left the Chantry, the mages can approach the Chantry on equal footing.

Should the mages form an alliance that is mutually beneficial with the Chantry, Evangeline wouldn't be forced to choose between being a templar and supporting mages, and in the eyes of the populace, would actually improve the mages image compared to the templars who abandoned the Chantry.

But yeah, I think Leliana is the only one Justinia fully trusts as well.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have my doubts that Evangeline would become the bodyguard of the Divine. In order to do that, she would need to abandon the Mages.

Plus Leliana is basically Justinia's body guard, and I'm betting the only agent she fully trusts.

Not necessarily.

If the mages as a collective are smart, they'll approach the Chantry to form an alliance. Up to the point of Asunder, the mages have been under the the templars and the Chantry, not equals. Now that they've declared independence and the templars have left the Chantry, the mages can approach the Chantry on equal footing.

Should the mages form an alliance that is mutually beneficial with the Chantry, Evangeline wouldn't be forced to choose between being a templar and supporting mages, and in the eyes of the populace, would actually improve the mages image compared to the templars who abandoned the Chantry.

But yeah, I think Leliana is the only one Justinia fully trusts as well.

haha not that mages have any chances but if they will make alliance with chantry they will end screwed like pretty much everyone who did that chantry in own fanaticism and power hunger will lead mages there where they started before revolution and no one will give damn about it thedas history proves it.I don't even mention that justinia definitely isn't mages "friend" only plays such after they want tear apart chantry .  

I don't even mention that openly supporting mages by divine will sink her reputation ultimately.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 25 novembre 2013 - 06:40 .

[Rinshikai10]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have my doubts that Evangeline would become the bodyguard of the Divine. In order to do that, she would need to abandon the Mages.

Plus Leliana is basically Justinia's body guard, and I'm betting the only agent she fully trusts.

Not necessarily.

If the mages as a collective are smart, they'll approach the Chantry to form an alliance. Up to the point of Asunder, the mages have been under the the templars and the Chantry, not equals. Now that they've declared independence and the templars have left the Chantry, the mages can approach the Chantry on equal footing.

Should the mages form an alliance that is mutually beneficial with the Chantry, Evangeline wouldn't be forced to choose between being a templar and supporting mages, and in the eyes of the populace, would actually improve the mages image compared to the templars who abandoned the Chantry.

But yeah, I think Leliana is the only one Justinia fully trusts as well.

I'm having trouble seeing the mutually beneficial alliance between these two groups. To me it feels like the Chantry has become increasing dependent on the Circles in order to maintain control of the masses.

Aside from the bare essentials, and education, Justinia has next to no means of protecting the Mages now. With Templar leaving, she has lost considerable military power.

Which could result in a lose of not only political control, but also economical. Few Templars means that enforcing the lyrium monopoly will become all the more difficult to do. Meaning that the Dwarves may look to other groups that have the coin. (Grey Wardens being the most obvious.)

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have my doubts that Evangeline would become the bodyguard of the Divine. In order to do that, she would need to abandon the Mages.

Plus Leliana is basically Justinia's body guard, and I'm betting the only agent she fully trusts.

Not necessarily.

If the mages as a collective are smart, they'll approach the Chantry to form an alliance. Up to the point of Asunder, the mages have been under the the templars and the Chantry, not equals. Now that they've declared independence and the templars have left the Chantry, the mages can approach the Chantry on equal footing.

Should the mages form an alliance that is mutually beneficial with the Chantry, Evangeline wouldn't be forced to choose between being a templar and supporting mages, and in the eyes of the populace, would actually improve the mages image compared to the templars who abandoned the Chantry.

But yeah, I think Leliana is the only one Justinia fully trusts as well.

I'm having trouble seeing the mutually beneficial alliance between these two groups. To me it feels like the Chantry has become increasing dependent on the Circles in order to maintain control of the masses.

Aside from the bare essentials, and education, Justinia has next to no means of protecting the Mages now. With Templar leaving, she has lost considerable military power.

Which could result in a lose of not only political control, but also economical. Few Templars means that enforcing the lyrium monopoly will become all the more difficult to do. Meaning that the Dwarves may look to other groups that have the coin. (Grey Wardens being the most obvious.)

The people still need healers. I'm sure many mages are Andrastian as they haven't been raised in any other religion. Add in that the Chantry has a monopoly on the lyrium trade so the mages would have to get involved with the Chantry in some way in order to get lyrium so as to avoid being stigmatized as blood mages, which they could just easily use to replace lyrium but would cast a dark reputation on them from the onset.

The mages in turn can offer enchanting services, healing, and can help work on areas with torn or weakened veils.

The Chantry at this point would lose nothing if the they told the mages no, and the same applies to the Chantry. They are, for the first time in history, on truly equal ground. Mages don't need lyrium, not to the same degree templars do, and no one but mages (and skilled dwarven smiths) can use lyrium in enchanting services.

If failing that, the mages could easily go to the dwarves of Orzammar and offer to trade their services against the darkspawn in exchange for lyrium. Say what you will against isolationist dwarves, they respect anyone who'll fight the darkspawn. It's why they like the Wardens, and why they loved that honorable outsider whom they treated as a fellow dwarf upon his death.

And I mentioned the Chantry and it's lyrium monopoly because we haven't got news yet on if anyone else has moved in on it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I have my doubts that Evangeline would become the bodyguard of the Divine. In order to do that, she would need to abandon the Mages.

Plus Leliana is basically Justinia's body guard, and I'm betting the only agent she fully trusts.

Not necessarily.

If the mages as a collective are smart, they'll approach the Chantry to form an alliance. Up to the point of Asunder, the mages have been under the the templars and the Chantry, not equals. Now that they've declared independence and the templars have left the Chantry, the mages can approach the Chantry on equal footing.

Should the mages form an alliance that is mutually beneficial with the Chantry, Evangeline wouldn't be forced to choose between being a templar and supporting mages, and in the eyes of the populace, would actually improve the mages image compared to the templars who abandoned the Chantry.

But yeah, I think Leliana is the only one Justinia fully trusts as well.

I'm having trouble seeing the mutually beneficial alliance between these two groups. To me it feels like the Chantry has become increasing dependent on the Circles in order to maintain control of the masses.

Aside from the bare essentials, and education, Justinia has next to no means of protecting the Mages now. With Templar leaving, she has lost considerable military power.

Which could result in a lose of not only political control, but also economical. Few Templars means that enforcing the lyrium monopoly will become all the more difficult to do. Meaning that the Dwarves may look to other groups that have the coin. (Grey Wardens being the most obvious.)

The people still need healers. I'm sure many mages are Andrastian as they haven't been raised in any other religion. Add in that the Chantry has a monopoly on the lyrium trade so the mages would have to get involved with the Chantry in some way in order to get lyrium so as to avoid being stigmatized as blood mages, which they could just easily use to replace lyrium but would cast a dark reputation on them from the onset.

The mages in turn can offer enchanting services, healing, and can help work on areas with torn or weakened veils.

The Chantry at this point would lose nothing if the they told the mages no, and the same applies to the Chantry. They are, for the first time in history, on truly equal ground. Mages don't need lyrium, not to the same degree templars do, and no one but mages (and skilled dwarven smiths) can use lyrium in enchanting services.

If failing that, the mages could easily go to the dwarves of Orzammar and offer to trade their services against the darkspawn in exchange for lyrium. Say what you will against isolationist dwarves, they respect anyone who'll fight the darkspawn. It's why they like the Wardens, and why they loved that honorable outsider whom they treated as a fellow dwarf upon his death.

And I mentioned the Chantry and it's lyrium monopoly because we haven't got news yet on if anyone else has moved in on it.

Peoples don't need healers they don't got them before perhaps outside anders so they can live without them.And so what that mages are andrastians you think that means peoples will start hugging them pretty much most of andrastians would gladly burn mages for the maker.Blood magic is only chance for mages they don't have allies and if they found them in dai it is just stupid and worth facepalm and also mages are weak without blood magic.

Mages would need be totally retarded like loyalists to work with chantry expecting that it will turn differently than every time before with them being screwd by chantry.

And i don't see also why dwarfes would want ****** off army of well trained warriors who outnumber and have good repuation in theadas them for few hundred abomnation bombs and that is with behlen harrowmont wouldn't even let them go to the city.   

[Rinshikai10]

@dragonflight288

From the example your providing, the lyrium is the only reason that the Mages would have a need to go back to the Chantry. Am I reading this wrong?

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@dragonflight288

From the example your providing, the lyrium is the only reason that the Mages would have a need to go back to the Chantry. Am I reading this wrong?

No, you're not. I'm sure the Chantry isn't the mages only source of lyrium, but the Chantry already has the trade contracts. It'll be easier to maintain them to build entirely new ones from scratch is all I'm saying, so it does create a beneficial arrangement, should one be reached.

Also, like I said earlier, even if no deal can be made, neither side loses anything by telling the other no at this point.

[Sir JK]

I think you're underestimating how difficult it'd be for mages and Chantry to work with one another. The loyalists will not mind, sure. But everyone else will have their own reservations and ideas for what they need. The Libertarians in particular will think that any dealings whatsoever with the Chantry (except possibly on a personal level) will be utterly unacceptable. Similarily, the Chantry's own conservatives will probably look on the mages as heretics. There's much bad blood between the two... regardless of what Justinia wants.

And no, saying no to one another actually do have a cost associated with it. Each time either side says no, the other will have less trust in them even wanting a arrangement.

[Rinshikai10]

I agree that Loyalists are likely the only fraternity to return.

I get the feeling the what Fiona said at the end or Asunder was true. There is no guarantee the Justinia will be able to protect them, and that many will likely be killed or made tranquil. (Not word for word)

[Angrywolves]

Agree even loyalists would be afraid after kirkwall of being enslaved or tranquilized, so they wouldn't ally with the chantry without guarantees that wouldn't happen. Trust has to work for both sides. shrugs.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Angrywolves wrote...

Agree even loyalists would be afraid after kirkwall of being enslaved or tranquilized, so they wouldn't ally with the chantry without guarantees that wouldn't happen. Trust has to work for both sides. shrugs.

Well loyalist if i remember voted to give up despite other pointing that many mages will be killed or tranquilized loyalists are like that qunari mage who killed himself for qun so they would gladly back even if they would get killed.

[Angrywolves]

Would make no sense. Doubt Gaider would write that for it to happen that way. shrugs.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Angrywolves wrote...

Would make no sense. Doubt Gaider would write that for it to happen that way. shrugs.

Well you can see one of loyalists in first da she wants to be killed by templars because she thinks that maker cursed her and that would be justice that probably attitude of 3/4 loyalists and well they also voted to come back to templars and be on their mercy they are known for being chantry dogs.

[Sir JK]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


Well you can see one of loyalists in first da she wants to be killed by templars because she thinks that maker cursed her and that would be justice that probably attitude of 3/4 loyalists and well they also voted to come back to templars and be on their mercy they are known for being chantry dogs.

Actually she's just an apprentice and thus not a formal member of the fraternity and given that she says she intends to undergo the rite of tranquility, chances are she'll never be one either.
The only loyalist we've seen is the head of the fraternity in Asunder, who voted against war since he felt they couldn't win.

[Angrywolves]

No one in their right mind wants to be murdered. Hopefully the Inquisitor can expose some of the chantry's lies. No way Loyalists should or will surrender to the chantry simply to be killed or tranquilized.

[Lord Raijin]

Sir JK wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


Well you can see one of loyalists in first da she wants to be killed by templars because she thinks that maker cursed her and that would be justice that probably attitude of 3/4 loyalists and well they also voted to come back to templars and be on their mercy they are known for being chantry dogs.

Actually she's just an apprentice and thus not a formal member of the fraternity and given that she says she intends to undergo the rite of tranquility, chances are she'll never be one either.
The only loyalist we've seen is the head of the fraternity in Asunder, who voted against war since he felt they couldn't win.

merged with

Angrywolves wrote...

No one in their right mind wants to
be murdered. Hopefully the Inquisitor can expose some of the chantry's
lies. No way Loyalists should or will surrender to the chantry simply to
be killed or tranquilized.

Many of the mages would prefer to be executed rather than to undergo the Rite of tranquality. Karl indicated this in DA2. He would rather die as a mage than to become a servant of the chantry. The tranquil Pharamond in Asunder nearly begged Cole to kill him as he was being scheduled to undergo the rite yet again.

The mage apprentice in DAO was clearly programmed by her templar jailers. I'm sure that templars of the circle reminds their prisoners (Mages) everyday that what they have is a curse. Is is their way to have full control over them. Some protest the idea (Anders) while others like that apprentice takes it in, and start feeling guilty for being who they are. They develop stockholm syndrome and see nothing wrong with what their jailers are doing.

Nobody in the right mind would want to be stuck in some tower for the rest of their lives... to be isolated from the rest of society, and to never have a family of their own.

The loyalists are templars programmed minions. You might as well call them thralls of the templars.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 29 novembre 2013 - 10:30 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...


The mage apprentice in DAO was clearly programmed by her templar jailers. I'm sure that templars of the circle reminds their prisoners (Mages) everyday that what they have is a curse. Is is their way to have full control over them, some protest the idea (Anders) while others like that apprentice takes it in, and start feeling guilty for being who they are. They develop stockholm syndrome and see nothing wrong with what their jailers are doing.

Nobody in the right mind would want to be stuck in some tower for the rest of their lives... to be isolated from the rest of society, and to never have a family of their own.

The loyalists are templars programmed minions. You might as well call them thralls of the templars.

Ok, that girl wasn't "programmed". To be scared to death of her powers would be completely understandable. While I think she was stupid for wanting to be tranquil, it doesn't diminish the validity of her fears.
The Loyalists are hardly minions either. Just because they do not wish fight the templars at all hardly makes them "thralls".

[Angrywolves]

We shall see. My Inquisitor wil be a defender of the helpless, so I won't let mages be massacred or tranquilized just because some so in so demands it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sir JK wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


Well you can see one of loyalists in first da she wants to be killed by templars because she thinks that maker cursed her and that would be justice that probably attitude of 3/4 loyalists and well they also voted to come back to templars and be on their mercy they are known for being chantry dogs.

Actually she's just an apprentice and thus not a formal member of the fraternity and given that she says she intends to undergo the rite of tranquility, chances are she'll never be one either.
The only loyalist we've seen is the head of the fraternity in Asunder, who voted against war since he felt they couldn't win.

Well they accepted that many of them will be killed they are dogs for me but well they are right they can't win that war but better die fighting or try escape than just give up like dog.

Besides she had loyalists views but was she official and loyalist are kown in being chantry dogs.

Angrywolves wrote...

No one in their right mind wants to
be murdered. Hopefully the Inquisitor can expose some of the chantry's
lies. No way Loyalists should or will surrender to the chantry simply to
be killed or tranquilized.

Should they i never said that but will they well i wouldn't be suprised they already tried give up when it was clear that many of them will be killed or turned into zombie even simple false agreement from templars will break them and they will turn on other mages.

Well im say that im for killing all (well almost all) and future generations of mages just because they are bad for business and i will play chaotic evil mage and im neither on templar side because they are far too incompetent and are open danger for my mage pc due im for crushing chantry and their faith.