1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Angrywolves]

well that's the way you can choose to play the game while other people will play it differently. shrugs.

[MisterJB]

Lord Raijin wrote...
They develop stockholm syndrome and see nothing wrong with what their jailers are doing.

Portray all dissenting opinion as a sickness caused by a diseased mind.

Classy.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Angrywolves wrote...

well that's the way you can choose to play the game while other people will play it differently. shrugs.

Yep but still we don't have control over any of mages , templars or someone else.

[dragonflight288]

The loyalists are templars programmed minions. You might as well call them thralls of the templars.

While I may be a mage supporter, I don't think this is entirely true. Many loyalists could easily have found the Circle's to be preferable to their families. In Jowan's case, he talks of his mother quite negatively, and how she referred to him as an 'it' or a 'thing' because of his magic. He had no love of the Circle, but without Lily he had nowhere to go, and his deal with Loghain was that Loghain would make matters right with the Circle so he could return as he had nowhere to go and no one to be with once Lily spurned him upon learning he was a blood mage.

Or Wynne mentioning that many children don't even make it to the circle's because lynch mobs and sometimes their own families kill them in some ill-placed blame for things quite likely out of their control (a bad crop, a still-birth or what have you.)

I don't think every loyalist can be called a drone of the chantry and the templars, just like I also think that not every libertarian can be called a blood-mage terrorist in the making, ready to slaugher anyone and everyone in order to gain their freedom. It's quite possible some mages find the Circle's a better life based on their experiences before entering.

It also depends on the Circle's themselves. Gregoire seemed to hold his templars accountable when he became aware of their actions. Examples of this being sending Cullen away as he felt it wasn't good for Cullen to be around the mages who tortured him, but also felt like it wasn't safe for the mages to be around Cullen. Or that one Templar ensnared by the desire demon in Broken Circle, as a note taken from his body shows that Gregoire felt his actions around the apprentices (I think it says female apprentices although my memory could be wrong since I'm tired) was inappropriate and was sending him on a dead-end job away from the Circle. Whereas most of the harsher critiques of the Circle's, meaning me, take Kirkwall and Meredith's templars, or Lambert's seekers and the templars under his command, as having absolutely no oversight whatsoever, and the fact that under Lambert and Meredith the templars could get away with whatever they wanted and no one would hold them accountable in any way, shape, or form.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

Ok, that girl wasn't "programmed". To be scared to death of her powers would be completely understandable. While I think she was stupid for wanting to be tranquil, it doesn't diminish the validity of her fears.
The Loyalists are hardly minions either. Just because they do not wish fight the templars at all hardly makes them "thralls".

Shes not that afraid of her magical talent since you see her assisting Wynne during broken Circle. You'll see her guarding the surviving children, and if things goes south between the Warden and Wynne she will attack the Warden. Someone who is that scared to death of their powers could not possibly do this. They would be totally submissive and act cowardly. They would depend on others to keep themselves safe.

At the end of Broken Circle she is convinced that magic is evil and think that all of the mages should be "clense" by her holyness of templars.

The Loyalist supports the Chantry. They support everything that they do.... and that includes taking their newborn children away from them. They have no problem with the way they're being treated, and how it's ok for them to keep them locked away in some tower like a can of sardines. That is a typial thrall like behavior that is caused by Stockholm syndrome.

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
They develop stockholm syndrome and see nothing wrong with what their jailers are doing.

Portray all dissenting opinion as a sickness caused by a diseased mind.

Classy.

It's called brainwashing... a form of social engineering. With enough patience and will power you can transform a free minded individual to think exactly like you. The Loyalist shows this as they're "Chantry apologists". In their minds the Chantry can do no wrong and thus accept their harsh treatments and rules.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 30 novembre 2013 - 11:55 .

[MisterJB]

Lord Raijin wrote...
It's called brainwashing... a form of social engineering. With enough patience and will power you can transform a free minded individual to think exactly like you. The Loyalist shows this as they're "Chantry apologists". In their minds the Chantry can do no wrong and thus accept their harsh treatments and rules.

Someone who thinks that anyone who disagrees with him has been brainwashed is accusing others of being close-minded.
Riiiigth....

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
It's called brainwashing... a form of social engineering. With enough patience and will power you can transform a free minded individual to think exactly like you. The Loyalist shows this as they're "Chantry apologists". In their minds the Chantry can do no wrong and thus accept their harsh treatments and rules.

Someone who thinks that anyone who disagrees with him has been brainwashed is accusing others of being close-minded.
Riiiigth....

It is naive thinking to believe that brainwashing doesn't exist in the Circle.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 30 novembre 2013 - 03:41 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
It's called brainwashing... a form of social engineering. With enough patience and will power you can transform a free minded individual to think exactly like you. The Loyalist shows this as they're "Chantry apologists". In their minds the Chantry can do no wrong and thus accept their harsh treatments and rules.

Someone who thinks that anyone who disagrees with him has been brainwashed is accusing others of being close-minded.
Riiiigth....

It is naive thinking to believe that brainwashing doesn't exist in the Circle.

In some very bad circles, I would be inclined to agree. However, how many circles did Anders personally experience? 1-2, out of 15 in Andrastian Thedas...And plus, they were not being brainwashed by having orders to follows, rules to abide by, no matter how strict or unjust that they were.

[MisterJB]

Lord Raijin wrote...
It is naive thinking to believe that brainwashing doesn't exist in the Circle.

The point is not whether brainwashing exists or doesn't. The point is about you portraying anyone who has an opinion that differs from you as being the result of a diseased and/or brainwashed mind rather than it being as valid as yours.  Believing that your way is the only way is actually far more absolutist than anything the Templars ever did. At least, they allow the different fraternities to exist.
You, on the other, automatically disqualify anything outside of the Libertarian views by claiming that they have been brainwashed and thus, their opinions have no value or strength.
A mage believes the Circle exists for a good reason? Well, then clearly s/he is dead wrong no matter how logical her/his arguments may be. Don't pay attention, s/he's sick in the head.

Plus, having rules to follow and orders to obey is no more brainwashing than what everyday kids in our world are taught at school.

[Rinshikai10]

I would speculate the loyalist believe that if they surrender to Justinia and the Chantry they will be shown leniency. However with all that is going on I would highly doubt that it would go that way. I would bet that the Templars/Chantry leadership would make very harsh examples, even if Justinia wants to show mercy.

[Hellion Rex]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I would speculate the loyalist believe that if they surrender to Justinia and the Chantry they will be shown leniency. However with all that is going on I would highly doubt that it would go that way. I would bet that the Templars/Chantry leadership would make very harsh examples, even if Justinia wants to show mercy.

However, the Chantry has lost a decent portion of their martial arm to Lambert's faction when the Nevarran Accord was revoked. The Chantry may not have enough power ti make "harsh examples" of Loyalist mages.

[Rinshikai10]

True, the same can be said if Justinia's followers tried to defend the mages from Lamberts faction. She has little military power, and needs others to aid her. Which leads me to the belief that is why she sends Cassandra and Leliana to looks for Hawke and the Warden.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 30 novembre 2013 - 07:20 .

[Rinshikai10]

At this point, does it seem viable for Justinia to try and get Loyalist back? I know that Mages are not united in the decision to fight (just as the Templar are), but I haven't heard of any Mages still standing with her. While I have heard of some Templar/Seekers still being loyal to her from WOT.

Plus looking at all the really big conflicts that I can remember in Thedas, it seems that Mages are vital for victory.

Any thoughts?

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

At this point, does it seem viable for Justinia to try and get Loyalist back? I know that Mages are not united in the decision to fight (just as the Templar are), but I haven't heard of any Mages still standing with her. While I have heard of some Templar/Seekers still being loyal to her from WOT.

Plus looking at all the really big conflicts that I can remember in Thedas, it seems that Mages are vital for victory.

Any thoughts?

Mages have been vital for the victory of nearly every major war to date, so if Justinia, heck maybe even Celene or that other Orlesian noble, if they are smart they'll want to ally with mages.

The issues with that will rise in that the majority of mages are not going to allow themselves to be placed under the Chantry again. some of the more strong-minded mages or the more conservative members of the Chantry would never get along or agree on any sort of alliance.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

At this point, does it seem viable for Justinia to try and get Loyalist back? I know that Mages are not united in the decision to fight (just as the Templar are), but I haven't heard of any Mages still standing with her. While I have heard of some Templar/Seekers still being loyal to her from WOT.

Plus looking at all the really big conflicts that I can remember in Thedas, it seems that Mages are vital for victory.

Any thoughts?

Mages have been vital for the victory of nearly every major war to date, so if Justinia, heck maybe even Celene or that other Orlesian noble, if they are smart they'll want to ally with mages.

The issues with that will rise in that the majority of mages are not going to allow themselves to be placed under the Chantry again. some of the more strong-minded mages or the more conservative members of the Chantry would never get along or agree on any sort of alliance.

Than it might take the Inquisition to step in and force them both to the table. Dear God, I wanna play this game now!!!

[Sir JK]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

At this point, does it seem viable for Justinia to try and get Loyalist back? I know that Mages are not united in the decision to fight (just as the Templar are), but I haven't heard of any Mages still standing with her. While I have heard of some Templar/Seekers still being loyal to her from WOT.

Plus looking at all the really big conflicts that I can remember in Thedas, it seems that Mages are vital for victory.

Any thoughts?

At this point I think that whatever it was the Loyalists and Justinia actually stood for is void. They'll have to reexamine their own positions and, while they're probably open to working with one another, not even they are going to go back to status quo. Just trying to get the Loyalists is ineffectual and will probably rob the remaining mages of their dissenting voices (and in times of strife dissent is actually extremely important). Justinia ought to realise that and so ought the Loyalists themselves. They have to aim for all mages or none at all.

So it'd have to be back to the drawing board. And while the loyalists are likely to side with Justinia in some issues, I would not be surprised if they side against her in others. They're simply less belligrient opposition now.

And I'm not sure the mages were so much vital as useful. Against Qunari and Darkspawn, sure. But I don't see how mages were indespensible in Maric's war to liberate Ferelden. I don't see how they were indespensible in the recent Nevarran/Orlesian border conflict (granted, I don't know much about it)

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mages
have been vital for the victory of nearly every major war to date, so
if Justinia, heck maybe even Celene or that other Orlesian noble, if
they are smart they'll want to ally with mages.

The issues with
that will rise in that the majority of mages are not going to allow
themselves to be placed under the Chantry again. some of the more
strong-minded mages or the more conservative members of the Chantry
would never get along or agree on any sort of alliance.

I agree with the latter statement. Not based on how things are looking right now. Maybe things will change (or already have) but as I see it right now... there's not going to be any easy to reach peace in sight for a very long time.

[Rinshikai10]

I thought Gaspard de Chalons was actively trying to gain the Mages as allies in Asunder. I remember Wynne talking about it, but I don't remember if it was just Gaspard de Chalons, or if Celene was doing the same thing.

[Joe25]

Village Man: "She A Mage! Run! Run for you lives! The maker chosen has come to cleanse the world with fire!"
Chantery Sister: (Slaps Village Man) "Get a hold of yourself. The maker is just working his will though his chosen.( cold voice) Now get, and don't say a word, or the maker will see just how pure you are."

[Sir JK]

Oh, having a mage is always an edge. No doubt. The real question if it is -the- mages or just mages or even just Wynne (being a notable mage)

And somehow I suspect that Celene never have needed to go, hat in hand, to the Chantry and kindly ask for mages. It's not terribly unlikely that she got a small entourage of court mages already.

[Rinshikai10]

@ Sir JK

I wouldn't be surprised if Celene has Mages of her own. (Likely hiding from the Circle.) However, will they be useful if they had to defend themselves, or the Empress?

I remember that Celene's Collage appears to be on shaky ground with the Chantry when it comes to education of the Nobles. I wonder if its the Chantry as a whole or only a select few. Would someone like Justinia be willing to work with the Empress, or Gaspard de Chalons? Maybe we will get to see some more of the Divine in the next book.

[Vulpe]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@ Sir JK

I wouldn't be surprised if Celene has Mages of her own. (Likely hiding from the Circle.) However, will they be useful if they had to defend themselves, or the Empress?

I remember that Celene's Collage appears to be on shaky ground with the Chantry when it comes to education of the Nobles. I wonder if its the Chantry as a whole or only a select few. Would someone like Justinia be willing to work with the Empress, or Gaspard de Chalons? Maybe we will get to see some more of the Divine in the next book.

They don't need to be hiding from The Chantry. In "The Stolen Throne" the Usurper had a mage counselour from a Circle Of Magi of Orlais. He was always afraid he will be sent back to the Circle and tried to be useful while making some schemes of his own.

Also, Maric was helped by Shale's former owner. He was a member of the Circle Of Ferelden. He spent most of his time with the soldiers in the camps.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 03 décembre 2013 - 09:54 .

[Rinshikai10]

Before the Dragon Age I would agree with you JulianWellpit. Some Mages would be safe from the Circle, but that is only in very rare cases like the examples you provide.

After the events that have transpired since then, I bet we well see a witch hunt of sorts either in The Masked Empire or Inquisition. Where a mages position provides little protection. (Shown is Asunder to a certain degree already)

[Joe25]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@ Sir JK

I wouldn't be surprised if Celene has Mages of her own. (Likely hiding from the Circle.) However, will they be useful if they had to defend themselves, or the Empress?

I remember that Celene's Collage appears to be on shaky ground with the Chantry when it comes to education of the Nobles. I wonder if its the Chantry as a whole or only a select few. Would someone like Justinia be willing to work with the Empress, or Gaspard de Chalons? Maybe we will get to see some more of the Divine in the next book.

They don't need to be hiding from The Chantry. In "The Stolen Throne" the Usurper had a mage counselour from a Circle Of Magi of Orlais. He was always afraid he will be sent back to the Circle and tried to be useful while making some schemes of his own.

Also, Maric was helped by Shale's former owner. He was a member of the Circle Of Ferelden. He spent most of his time with the soldiers in the camps.

In The Stolen Tholen Throne, and even in the human noble origin you see what are court mages, mages sold or given by the Chantery to serve as teachers and bodygards for high noblity. But, as a friend of Hawk's fathers said "that was a differnt time", and I don't recall seeing any mages in court in DA2. So, who knows who has mages or not? 

[Wulfram]

Vivienne seems to be known at the Orlesian court

[dragonflight288]

I expect to see Morrigan in court. She seems smart enough to blend in if it's a matter of survival. That or she'll be confident enough not to care about people knowing she's a mage.