1605 réponses à ce sujet

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Angrywolves wrote...

uh don't think so.

Well this is your opinion what I wrote is my theory. 

[dragonflight288]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Possibly, I do remember Riordan saying this. It could have been that one of the other Wardens in the Anderfels did something to Riordan to give him this opinion. We have no way of knowing this. But, the reason for their attitude in the Anderfels is that they still riddled with the darkspawn problem and no country comes to their aid.

In regards to the Chantry if you recruit Anders they do come at him again. They make their move once the Warden Commander goes to GOA. If I was the First Warden, this would have really ticked me off that they tried to infiltrate one my Warden Outposts. Rylock in DAA does make the comment that many Templars feel that the Wardens are just a haven for apostate mages to be free from the Chantry and to hide behind being a Warden. So many fanatics within the Templars see the Wardens as a problem.

And also based on Rylock's statements, many of them feel they are above secular law, as she herself believes.

Anders: You can't do this! King Alistair allowed my conscription!
Rylock: The chantry supercedes the crown on this matter!

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Exactly DragonFlight

Another example is in DA2 during the Mother Petrice storyline and the Viscount's son being killed. The Grand Cleric clearly states those who serve the chantry are also not above the laws of any Monarch and that they most also obey all civil law as well. Which means obeying the laws and rulings of all Monarchs.

Rylock did overstep her authority once the King/Queen allowed Anders conscription.  Alistair was also conscripted into the Grey Wardens against the Grand Clerics wishes.  The Wardens are allowed to conscript whomever they wish and nobody in Thedas can oppose their right of conscription.  Not sure if this will change during DA:I. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 17 décembre 2013 - 06:35 .

[Rinshikai10]

Hopefully, if Justinia tries to make some kind of alliance with the Wardens, she won't make the same mistakes as the Templars and possibly Seekers.

@ElvaliaRavenHart

With the ROC you never know. If the Wardens are smart they'll threaten to conscript Leliana and maybe Cassandra to ensure that Justinia doesn't try to influence the Order.

[Sir JK]

The question though isn't really if Justinia wants to ally with the Warden's but if the Warden's wants to ally with the chantry. Remember that the king of the Anderfels draws a lot of his legitimacy from the fact that he's so devout. He's made the Chant of Light law by pain of death, has a personal hit squad of assassins that he sends after his "religious" (read political) enemies. If there's one monarch on Thedas that's allied to the Chantry, it's him.

Which means that by extent, the wardens will find some of their Anders allies among the enemies of the chantry (the Anders chantry anyways). That's not saying they're opposed to the chantry as such, just it's political presence mind (though I wouldn't be shocked if the wardens are loosely allied to the mages. It makes sense, after all).

If the Wardens are smart they'll threaten to conscript Leliana and maybe Cassandra to ensure that Justinia doesn't try to influence the Order.

Oh no... that's not smart at all. That will just make her angry. And you do not want to make the most far reaching voice in the world angry if you're thinking about throwing neutrality to the wind and attempt a coup.

[azarhal]

Sir JK wrote...

If the Wardens are smart they'll threaten to conscript Leliana and maybe Cassandra to ensure that Justinia doesn't try to influence the Order.

Oh no... that's not smart at all. That will just make her angry. And you do not want to make the most far reaching voice in the world angry if you're thinking about throwing neutrality to the wind and attempt a coup.

It's not just not smart, it just doesn't work. The Wardens cannot force somebody to become a Warden even with the Conscription Right. That's why all the people recruited that way have been people who have the choice between die/jail or join the Wardens (and die written in really small footprints).

Anyhow, Cassandra is likely to kill any wardens who try to conscript her, she didn't seem to like them much in the Legacy DLC...

[Rinshikai10]

@Sir JK

You have to remember that in the Anderfels, the King ignores the people outside his capital city. Which means that the Wardens often have a stronger presence everywhere else. In WOT it is said that Weisshaupt is becoming a symbol of authority.

Justinia may be able to get a foothold in the capital City, but that would not mean much everywhere else without the Wardens support. (Sort of like Alistair's support wouldn't mean much in Kirkwall without the support of the Templars)

Justinia seems to have strong support at face value, however, there appears to be conflict rising from within the Chantry itself. I remember that if you side with Petrice in DA2 you learn later on that the Chantry is not fully united.

[TheKomandorShepard]

azarhal wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

If the Wardens are smart they'll threaten to conscript Leliana and maybe Cassandra to ensure that Justinia doesn't try to influence the Order.

Oh no... that's not smart at all. That will just make her angry. And you do not want to make the most far reaching voice in the world angry if you're thinking about throwing neutrality to the wind and attempt a coup.

It's not just not smart, it just doesn't work. The Wardens cannot force somebody to become a Warden even with the Conscription Right. That's why all the people recruited that way have been people who have the choice between die/jail or join the Wardens (and die written in really small footprints).

Anyhow, Cassandra is likely to kill any wardens who try to conscript her, she didn't seem to like them much in the Legacy DLC...

Well they can that is law so technically they can in practice if you kick their a** you don't have to as it is said they can recruit even king (but they don't do that to remain neutral) .It is that same crap that after joining you have to serve wardens but for real you don't have to. I don't think that she is most reaching voice she left with few peoples and is on sinking boat and well thanks to leliana divine have dirty account so if that was revealed that would be her end.

[Rinshikai10]

I'm inclined to agree with TheKomanderShepard on Justinia's far reaching voice Sir JK. After the Nevarran Accord was voided, she lost considerable influence in Thedas. Making her bargaining position very weak.

When I used the ROC example for Leliana and Cassandra. The point was to keep Justinia is line. Not to actually conscript them, but threaten to do so. (Like the Visigoth Alaric did to Rome in 408 AD) She can't afford to loss what few allies she has, if she did make threats to the Wardens there are a number of ways that could harm her and the Chantry.

They have considerable power in Waking Sea, which appears to be a major trade route in Southern Thedas. One misstep could cause supply lines to the Empire to be hindered or even stopped. Making an already difficult situation worse.

But that's just my opinion

[azarhal]

You cannot threaten someone with something, if you cannot put your threats to execution. The Wardens cannot force somebody to join their ranks with the Right of Conscription. The Right works only because the authorities enforce and support it and they do so to a point (aka only for criminals and exiles).

Also, Wardens against the Chantry in the Anderfels would be hilarious to see, I suspect the Wardens killing each others would be the ending conclusion. The Anderfels is the most religious nation, this include Wardens.

I also think people are giving way too much "power" to the Wardens. Excluding the Anderfels, they have no authority unless there is a Blight and even then it's mostly begging for help.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

azarhal wrote...

You cannot threaten someone with something, if you cannot put your threats to execution. The Wardens cannot force somebody to join their ranks with the Right of Conscription. The Right works only because the authorities enforce and support it and they do so to a point (aka only for criminals and exiles).

Also, Wardens against the Chantry in the Anderfels would be hilarious to see, I suspect the Wardens killing each others would be the ending conclusion. The Anderfels is the most religious nation, this include Wardens.

I also think people are giving way too much "power" to the Wardens. Excluding the Anderfels, they have no authority unless there is a Blight and even then it's mostly begging for help.

When you play through the first game Duncan makes it clear that they can conscript anyone they choose.  Even the Grand Cleric had to give up Alistair being a novice Templar.  This should tells us they have power over the Chantry and can over rule a Grand Cleric.  Right here tells us that they do have authority/power to conscript anyone.  The DAO novels also make this same statement.  They have the ROC.

In the human noble origin, your father asks Duncan point blank if he is envoking the ROC and Duncan declines but he doesn't have to.  He was being diplomatic.  Yet, you are conscripted anyway once your parent's are killed.  Duncan being the Warden Commander of the Ferelden at the time of the fifth blight had to be careful on who he recruited because of the Warden's being thrown out of Ferelden 200 years before. 

He also went on to say that yes, they even conscript those of the Monahrcy yet ths is not without some consequences.   Duncan also kills Sir Jory because Sir Jory decides he doesn't want to become a Grey Warden once he sees Daveth die during the joining ritual.  Duncan kills Sir Jory.  Once drafted into the Wardens there is no turning back. 

Sir Gregoir Knight Commander of the Circle Tower also complains he is tried of the Wardens always needing recruits and their ROC.  All of the countries of Thedas agreed to this right which does give Grey Wardens power. All countries of Thedas also support the Grey Wardens with money to support them. 

From the Wiki on Grey Wardens:

"Should they need to, the Grey Wardens possess the Right of Conscription; they may demand that any individual from king to criminal be drafted into their ranks. However — especially in Ferelden — this right is used sparingly for fear of political reprisal. Further complicating matters, the Grey Wardens don't accept just anyone. Only the best and brightest are invited. In addition, the fact that the Joining ritual kills many of its participants means that the draft may turn out to be a death sentence."

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Right_of_Conscription#The_Right_of_Conscription

So the Wardens do have power and the legal standing currently of the ROC and nobody really has the right to tell them no, thus Rylok did overstep her bounds. 
 
Now if the countries in Thedas decide that they don't want to support the Wardens well that is a possibility we might see this happen in DA:I.  It did happen in Ferelden during King Arland's time. But if another blight arises I'm sure there are going to be folks that wish they are around.  If this happened, I'd see the Grey Wardens going underground and becoming even more secretive.

I don't see other Wardens killing each other, unless it was an accident.  I see the Wardens going along with the Divine, especially Wardens in the Anderfels.  It really depends on what the First Warden decides to do.  One fact is clear the Wardens need mages. 

[Angrywolves]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

uh don't think so.

Well this is your opinion what I wrote is my theory. 

EVERYTHING is just someone's opinion until the game comes out.
Gaider laughed at our predictions about the game in another thread.A broken clock is right once in a while he said.So we're all broken clocks I guess.


This warden talk.The wardens have been corrupted somehow, probably by the main antagonist.We know , pretty much that Corypheus has possessed one of them.
I just don't think Justinia will be soliciting assistance from them.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

True, we're all just having fun until the game comes out. 

[azarhal]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

When you play through the first game Duncan makes it clear that they can conscript anyone they choose.  Even the Grand Cleric had to give up Alistair being a novice Templar.  This should tells us they have power over the Chantry and can over rule a Grand Cleric.  Right here tells us that they do have authority/power to conscript anyone.  The DAO novels also make this same statement.  They have the ROC. 

What the Right of Conscription and the Wardens says is quite different to what they can do.  Duncan wasn't going to raise an army and asssassinate the Grand Cleric of Denerim if she had refused to give away Alistair.

As soon as a ruler tell the Wardens no, they can not do anything about it, unless they wish to be kicked out of a country for centuries again.

Modifié par azarhal, 20 décembre 2013 - 12:23 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Well see, you're missing the whole point. All of the rulers of Thedas agreed to this centuries ago. This is why there are Warden treaties with each nation and race and their monetary support of the Wardens.

So if they bail on the Wardens then that country is screwed if war bands of darkspawn come on the surface which they do from time to time. Wardens are always needed blight or no.

However, if you choose to disregard what the wiki and the offical walkthroughs say, well that is up to you. My CE walkthrough says they have full legal ROC and nobody can say no.

The only way a ruler can object is like King Arland did when he kicked them out of Ferelden; which if the blight had occurred during his time than Ferelden wouldn't have existed today; because no Wardens would have been in Ferelden to defend it. Rulers take a hugh risk of not allowing ROC for Wardens and this will also include the Divine. It's more risk than it is worth so they will hardly say no to the Warden's ROC. If they do their idiots if darkspawn come up or a Arch Demons rises.

The wiki link I gave you explains all of this.

[Urazz]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Exactly DragonFlight

Another example is in DA2 during the Mother Petrice storyline and the Viscount's son being killed. The Grand Cleric clearly states those who serve the chantry are also not above the laws of any Monarch and that they most also obey all civil law as well. Which means obeying the laws and rulings of all Monarchs.

Rylock did overstep her authority once the King/Queen allowed Anders conscription.  Alistair was also conscripted into the Grey Wardens against the Grand Clerics wishes.  The Wardens are allowed to conscript whomever they wish and nobody in Thedas can oppose their right of conscription.  Not sure if this will change during DA:I. 

Actually, the conscription can be opposed by the monarch of that kingdom if he/she doesn't want it to happen since the Grey Warden's Right of Conscription is allowed by the monarch of that kingdom.  Also if the Right is abused too much and pisses off the nobles and those in power too much, then the Monarch of that kingdom may feel the need to do something about it as well.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Do you have a link to this? I understand the opposing viewpoint. I don't read the game information nor the lore like this. Especially based on Duncan's words and actions in the game. If said Monarch isn't around then what? In the case of Anders they were. This is what the ROC does makes the ruling when the Monarch isn't there to rule on the issue, or it seems to me this would be the case.  Both Monarch at the Vigial prompt the warden to ask for the conscription.  The Warden takes the hint to ask or say no.

I get the point and understand, but what we've seen so far is that nobody in this situation said no except for Rylok and the monarch of Ferelden did rule to allow Ander's conscription if the Warden Commander wants the conscription; thus, Rylok went beyond her authority to go after the Warden and Anders again, not once but twice in Anders case.

Fine let's say a monarch opposes then their country is plagued with darkspawn, then the Warden's say you're on your own since you won't allow us to recruit? Then what? Even Loghain found out he had to be a Grey Warden to deal with darkspawn efficiently.  Daveth also makes the point to Sir Jory that if the Wardens didn't have the ROC then who in their right mind would join the Wardens?  Very few would if the joining became full knowledge.  Which in Anora's case she knew at the landsmeet that the joining could kill a person. 

The ROC says they can recruit a King/Queen as well as anybody else. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 20 décembre 2013 - 02:51 .

[Rinshikai10]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

azarhal wrote...

You cannot threaten someone with something, if you cannot put your threats to execution. The Wardens cannot force somebody to join their ranks with the Right of Conscription. The Right works only because the authorities enforce and support it and they do so to a point (aka only for criminals and exiles).

Also, Wardens against the Chantry in the Anderfels would be hilarious to see, I suspect the Wardens killing each others would be the ending conclusion. The Anderfels is the most religious nation, this include Wardens.

I also think people are giving way too much "power" to the Wardens. Excluding the Anderfels, they have no authority unless there is a Blight and even then it's mostly begging for help.

When you play through the first game Duncan makes it clear that they can conscript anyone they choose.  Even the Grand Cleric had to give up Alistair being a novice Templar.  This should tells us they have power over the Chantry and can over rule a Grand Cleric.  Right here tells us that they do have authority/power to conscript anyone.  The DAO novels also make this same statement.  They have the ROC.

In the human noble origin, your father asks Duncan point blank if he is envoking the ROC and Duncan declines but he doesn't have to.  He was being diplomatic.  Yet, you are conscripted anyway once your parent's are killed.  Duncan being the Warden Commander of the Ferelden at the time of the fifth blight had to be careful on who he recruited because of the Warden's being thrown out of Ferelden 200 years before. 

He also went on to say that yes, they even conscript those of the Monahrcy yet ths is not without some consequences.   Duncan also kills Sir Jory because Sir Jory decides he doesn't want to become a Grey Warden once he sees Daveth die during the joining ritual.  Duncan kills Sir Jory.  Once drafted into the Wardens there is no turning back. 

Sir Gregoir Knight Commander of the Circle Tower also complains he is tried of the Wardens always needing recruits and their ROC.  All of the countries of Thedas agreed to this right which does give Grey Wardens power. All countries of Thedas also support the Grey Wardens with money to support them. 

From the Wiki on Grey Wardens:

"Should they need to, the Grey Wardens possess the Right of Conscription; they may demand that any individual from king to criminal be drafted into their ranks. However — especially in Ferelden — this right is used sparingly for fear of political reprisal. Further complicating matters, the Grey Wardens don't accept just anyone. Only the best and brightest are invited. In addition, the fact that the Joining ritual kills many of its participants means that the draft may turn out to be a death sentence."

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Right_of_Conscription#The_Right_of_Conscription

So the Wardens do have power and the legal standing currently of the ROC and nobody really has the right to tell them no, thus Rylok did overstep her bounds. 
 
Now if the countries in Thedas decide that they don't want to support the Wardens well that is a possibility we might see this happen in DA:I.  It did happen in Ferelden during King Arland's time. But if another blight arises I'm sure there are going to be folks that wish they are around.  If this happened, I'd see the Grey Wardens going underground and becoming even more secretive.

I don't see other Wardens killing each other, unless it was an accident.  I see the Wardens going along with the Divine, especially Wardens in the Anderfels.  It really depends on what the First Warden decides to do.  One fact is clear the Wardens need mages. 

I'm having a bit of difficulty seeing the Anderfels Wardens working with the Divine. From what Riordan says in DAO, it sounds like the Anders Wardens don't care about the rest of the world.


FF to 5:00 and you can see what he says about the Anderfels Wardens.

Now that the Circles are gone, there doesn't seem to be a reason to work with Justinia.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 20 décembre 2013 - 10:50 .

[Angrywolves]

Some of ther wardens have been corrupted.We saw that in Legacy.How far rthe corruption goes remains to be seen.

[Rinshikai10]

When it comes to the corruption of Corypheus, it almost seems like he can influence selectively. Larius has more taint in his blood then Janika. However, its seems that her being a Mage was also why she was influenced to a greater degree.

If Corypheus is one of the Magisters that entered the Golden City, I wonder how this will affect the Chantry's view on the Wardens, should they learn about it.

[Angrywolves]

I presume we'll see the other magisters that entered the Goilden City.
If the city was already corrupted by someone other than the magisters, I wonder if Gaider will answer that question or if it will continue to linger.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

When you play through the first game Duncan makes it clear that they can conscript anyone they choose.  Even the Grand Cleric had to give up Alistair being a novice Templar.  This should tells us they have power over the Chantry and can over rule a Grand Cleric.  Right here tells us that they do have authority/power to conscript anyone.  The DAO novels also make this same statement.  They have the ROC. 

The Grey Wardens can conscript anyone, yes. However, if the person being conscripted does not want to join, then the Wardens have to respect their decision. They can't drag unwilling individuals to the Joining ritual.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

When you play through the first game Duncan makes it clear that they can conscript anyone they choose.  Even the Grand Cleric had to give up Alistair being a novice Templar.  This should tells us they have power over the Chantry and can over rule a Grand Cleric.  Right here tells us that they do have authority/power to conscript anyone.  The DAO novels also make this same statement.  They have the ROC. 

The Grey Wardens can conscript anyone, yes. However, if the person being conscripted does not want to join, then the Wardens have to respect their decision. They can't drag unwilling individuals to the Joining ritual.

Not rly some of the wardens have possibility to refuse then duncan use Roc and we have to go and see fate of jory(?) daveth was forced as well but if you are stronger than warden that try force you , you can pull might makes right and well...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

When you play through the first game Duncan makes it clear that they can conscript anyone they choose.  Even the Grand Cleric had to give up Alistair being a novice Templar.  This should tells us they have power over the Chantry and can over rule a Grand Cleric.  Right here tells us that they do have authority/power to conscript anyone.  The DAO novels also make this same statement.  They have the ROC. 

The Grey Wardens can conscript anyone, yes. However, if the person being conscripted does not want to join, then the Wardens have to respect their decision. They can't drag unwilling individuals to the Joining ritual.

Not rly some of the wardens have possibility to refuse then duncan use Roc and we have to go and see fate of jory(?) daveth was forced as well but if you are stronger than warden that try force you , you can pull might makes right and well...

Jory had no option because by the time he refused, he already knew about what the Joining Ritual entailed and that is one of the Warden's greatest and most closely held secrets. So it was a security matter. As for Daveth, he agreed to it willingly. When Nathaniel Howe originally refused to partake of it, the Wardens gave him the option to either be executed, imprisoned, or even let go. There was no "You have no choice". Same with everyone else. As long as you refuse before learning the Warden's secrets, you are no threat to their organization and thus they have no reason to force you to join their ranks.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

When you play through the first game Duncan makes it clear that they can conscript anyone they choose.  Even the Grand Cleric had to give up Alistair being a novice Templar.  This should tells us they have power over the Chantry and can over rule a Grand Cleric.  Right here tells us that they do have authority/power to conscript anyone.  The DAO novels also make this same statement.  They have the ROC. 

The Grey Wardens can conscript anyone, yes. However, if the person being conscripted does not want to join, then the Wardens have to respect their decision. They can't drag unwilling individuals to the Joining ritual.

Not rly some of the wardens have possibility to refuse then duncan use Roc and we have to go and see fate of jory(?) daveth was forced as well but if you are stronger than warden that try force you , you can pull might makes right and well...

Jory had no option because by the time he refused, he already knew about what the Joining Ritual entailed and that is one of the Warden's greatest and most closely held secrets. So it was a security matter. As for Daveth, he agreed to it willingly. When Nathaniel Howe originally refused to partake of it, the Wardens gave him the option to either be executed, imprisoned, or even let go. There was no "You have no choice". Same with everyone else. As long as you refuse before learning the Warden's secrets, you are no threat to their organization and thus they have no reason to force you to join their ranks.

Daveth was forced as far i renember and you can conscript nathaniel against his will only other way is let him out then he decides join you after some time.That is point RoC you can't refuse (well you can but you have to face the consequences).Even in DE origins you have option to refuse then duncan use RoC and he forces you.