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[lil yonce]

^Justinia V.

[The Hierophant]

Ihatebadgames wrote...

Looks like the Chantry is headed for a Reformation.Who is being set up in a Martin Luther role?

Sandal 

[Silfren]

rapscallioness wrote...

perhaps they're setting us up for something.

edit: i'd prefer to be set up for it in the game. if it has any impact on the game actually. i'd like to meet her and have her be a fascinating charcter. regrdless if i agree with her.

I think we are being set up for something.  I certainly hope we are.  My own speculation is that we'll have the opportunity to actually meet Justinia herself in DA:I.  I'm not certain, but I think that's one of the purposes of Asunder; to introduce us to the key players of the upcoming game.  I expect to meet Justinia, Rhys, Lambert, possibly Cole, and Evangeline.  Possibly Adrian, too. 

It'd actually be rather cool if the game was set up to branch off, so that who we met and how we interacted with them depended entirely on our choices.  But that's getting a bit off-topic, so I'll shut up now.

[Silfren]

Ihatebadgames wrote...

Looks like the Chantry is headed for a Reformation.Who is being set up in a Martin Luther role?

I'd say the Inquisitor that we play would be the obvious choice.  One option available to us, hopefully.  But I do think that the story is being set up for some kind of factional split.

Modifié par Silfren, 22 avril 2013 - 03:29 .

[LobselVith8]

Ihatebadgames wrote...

Looks like the Chantry is headed for a Reformation.Who is being set up in a Martin Luther role?

What if the protagonist opposes the Chantry and the templars?

[Rinshikai10]

Silfren wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

 Around two to three months ago, we learned that the Divine in Dawn of the Seeker is actually Beatrix III. Who was nearly killed by Blood Mages using dragons.

After Grand Cleric Callista, Knight Commander Martel, and Frenic fail in their attempt to kill her. Beatrix becomes very fearful of Mages, regardless if they are from the Circle or not, as shown in Asunder.

This makes me wonder why she would put Dorothea forward, if she was only a Revered Mother.From my understanding the Grand Clerics are the only people eligible for the position. However, I could be wrong.

Her dying of a stroke also seems a little strange. I know that she was old but it feel like fowl play was involved by Dorothea.

Why would a Divine fearful of Mages, select a Divine that is sympathetic to them?

I wonder how this plays out in DA3I.

Any thoughts?

Why is it you think her dying of a stroke was strange, and why do you think Dorothea was involved?  I'd prefer to have an actual basis for those ideas than just "feelings."

From Asunder we hear from Wynne that the Chantry prefer Divines old and more a figurehead then leader. Dorothea possibly being a former Bard and saying that she sees Leliana as a younger her. Gives me the idea that she may have had a betrayal in her past that made her go to the Chantry for forgiveness.

Like Leliana I betting that Dorothea believes that a grand gesture will allow the Maker to forgive her for a life she regrets living. Allowing her to be by his side when she dies.

The reforming of the Circle is a world changing event. In order to do this, one needs power and position. In the Chantry what is more influential then the Divine.

Why I think that Dorothea was involved with the stroke of Beatrix is, as far as I know no one expect Dorothea gains anything from her death. Just before she dies she chooses Dorothea. Who is not fully trusted by the Chantry mothers or clerics. Who usually vote unanimous for the next Divine. Like I said she could just be old, but nothing is Orlais from what I have seen is very clear cut.

[Ihatebadgames]

Silfren wrote...

Ihatebadgames wrote...

Looks like the Chantry is headed for a Reformation.Who is being set up in a Martin Luther role?

I'd say the Inquisitor that we play would be the obvious choice.  One option available to us, hopefully.  But I do think that the story is being set up for some kind of factional split.

Yeah we already have a split(Black/White divines)need a total separation.Enchantment!

[Silfren]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Why is it you think her dying of a stroke was strange, and why do you think Dorothea was involved?  I'd prefer to have an actual basis for those ideas than just "feelings."

From Asunder we hear from Wynne that the Chantry prefer Divines old and more a figurehead then leader. Dorothea possibly being a former Bard and saying that she sees Leliana as a younger her. Gives me the idea that she may have had a betrayal in her past that made her go to the Chantry for forgiveness.

Like Leliana I betting that Dorothea believes that a grand gesture will allow the Maker to forgive her for a life she regrets living. Allowing her to be by his side when she dies.

The reforming of the Circle is a world changing event. In order to do this, one needs power and position. In the Chantry what is more influential then the Divine.

Why I think that Dorothea was involved with the stroke of Beatrix is, as far as I know no one expect Dorothea gains anything from her death. Just before she dies she chooses Dorothea. Who is not fully trusted by the Chantry mothers or clerics. Who usually vote unanimous for the next Divine. Like I said she could just be old, but nothing is Orlais from what I have seen is very clear cut.

Well, it's customary for the Divine to leave the name of her chosen/preferred successor, and then the Grand Clerics all vote.  The codex on this is clear that the Divine's suggestion isn't a guarantee of that woman's ascension to the Divine's seat, but it does seem to imply that her word carries a lot of weight.  Justinia's codex indicates that she faced a lot of opposition as Beatrix's choice, but that she was ultimately elected, which means she got that unanimous vote.  

[Rinshikai10]

Silfren wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Why is it you think her dying of a stroke was strange, and why do you think Dorothea was involved?  I'd prefer to have an actual basis for those ideas than just "feelings."

From Asunder we hear from Wynne that the Chantry prefer Divines old and more a figurehead then leader. Dorothea possibly being a former Bard and saying that she sees Leliana as a younger her. Gives me the idea that she may have had a betrayal in her past that made her go to the Chantry for forgiveness.

Like Leliana I betting that Dorothea believes that a grand gesture will allow the Maker to forgive her for a life she regrets living. Allowing her to be by his side when she dies.

The reforming of the Circle is a world changing event. In order to do this, one needs power and position. In the Chantry what is more influential then the Divine.

Why I think that Dorothea was involved with the stroke of Beatrix is, as far as I know no one expect Dorothea gains anything from her death. Just before she dies she chooses Dorothea. Who is not fully trusted by the Chantry mothers or clerics. Who usually vote unanimous for the next Divine. Like I said she could just be old, but nothing is Orlais from what I have seen is very clear cut.

Well, it's customary for the Divine to leave the name of her chosen/preferred successor, and then the Grand Clerics all vote.  The codex on this is clear that the Divine's suggestion isn't a guarantee of that woman's ascension to the Divine's seat, but it does seem to imply that her word carries a lot of weight.  Justinia's codex indicates that she faced a lot of opposition as Beatrix's choice, but that she was ultimately elected, which means she got that unanimous vote.  

I'm not so sure this is true, like you said Beatrix choice does not insure the next Divine. They may have chosen Dorothea, but I positive that it was not a unanimous vote, otherwise she would not have half the problems we see in Asunder and DA2.

[Senya]

^^

That might explain the inconsistency we perceive. If she ignored Kirkwall's Circle rebellion, she could very well have been removed from office/assassinated.

[Silfren]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Why is it you think her dying of a stroke was strange, and why do you think Dorothea was involved?  I'd prefer to have an actual basis for those ideas than just "feelings."

From Asunder we hear from Wynne that the Chantry prefer Divines old and more a figurehead then leader. Dorothea possibly being a former Bard and saying that she sees Leliana as a younger her. Gives me the idea that she may have had a betrayal in her past that made her go to the Chantry for forgiveness.

Like Leliana I betting that Dorothea believes that a grand gesture will allow the Maker to forgive her for a life she regrets living. Allowing her to be by his side when she dies.

The reforming of the Circle is a world changing event. In order to do this, one needs power and position. In the Chantry what is more influential then the Divine.

Why I think that Dorothea was involved with the stroke of Beatrix is, as far as I know no one expect Dorothea gains anything from her death. Just before she dies she chooses Dorothea. Who is not fully trusted by the Chantry mothers or clerics. Who usually vote unanimous for the next Divine. Like I said she could just be old, but nothing is Orlais from what I have seen is very clear cut.

Well, it's customary for the Divine to leave the name of her chosen/preferred successor, and then the Grand Clerics all vote.  The codex on this is clear that the Divine's suggestion isn't a guarantee of that woman's ascension to the Divine's seat, but it does seem to imply that her word carries a lot of weight.  Justinia's codex indicates that she faced a lot of opposition as Beatrix's choice, but that she was ultimately elected, which means she got that unanimous vote.  

I'm not so sure this is true, like you said Beatrix choice does not insure the next Divine. They may have chosen Dorothea, but I positive that it was not a unanimous vote, otherwise she would not have half the problems we see in Asunder and DA2.

Well, the only way for her to legally have been elected is through a unanimous vote, so I'm not sure what else could have happened.  To the best of my knowledge we're told that she prevailed, but we are NOT told that she rose to the Divine through unconventional methods, and I expect we'd have heard as much if that were the case.  But it's not true that a unanimous vote would have meant she wouldn't have problems later; I'm sure the Grand Clerics are not the only people who would have had a stake in the next Divine, given how closely Orlais' politics are tied up with the Chantry.

ETA:  Went back and looked at Justinia's codex.  It says that "Though ritual demanded the decision be unanimous, servants attending the Consensus whispered of heated debate over Dorothea's suitability. Her "worldly" background and demonstrated forgiveness for sinners were held against her; utimately, however, the will of Beatrix III prevailed, and Dorothea began her reign as Justinia V." 

That still reads to me as if Justinia got a unanimous vote, though how that came about is questionable.  I say this because if there were people damned and determined not to vote for her and she didn't get a unanimous vote but ascended to the seat of the Divine regardless, I think we'd have lore available discussing that break with tradition and the inevitable uproar it would have caused among the people who would have used the requirement to their advantage in keeping Justinia from power.  Under the circumstances I'm inclined to believe that the very notion of electing Justinia without a unanimous vote would have triggered something of a furious backlash, by the aforementioned group who would have used the tradition to their advantage, and those who simply would have balked at the idea of breaking an age-old tradition.

Modifié par Silfren, 22 avril 2013 - 05:37 .

[Rinshikai10]

At this point I'm still not convinced that Justinia got a unanimous vote. Mostly because at this point the Chantry is hardly united with her.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 22 avril 2013 - 05:23 .

[Silfren]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

At this point I'm still not convinced that Justinia got a unanimous vote. Mostly because at this point the Chantry is hardly united with her.

Perhaps, but it leaves open the question of how she would have been elected to the Divine without that unanimous vote.  Since we're told that the vote is historically required to be unanimous, and we are NOT told anything about a break with tradition, and such a break would almost certainly cause a furor of reaction, amongst traditionalists AND Justinia's enemies who could have used a non-unanimous vote to block her ascension...I'm inclined to think that for some reason she got that vote after all.  It's true that we could get a future reveal that says otherwise, but not getting a unanimous vote would be a sufficiently big deal under the circumstances that I'd have expected to heard about it by now. 

So I think she got a unanimous vote. 

[Rinshikai10]

Do we know at this point if a unanimous vote is really required? Tradition may dictate it, but unless we know if every Divine prior got that vote, it becomes a little ambiguous.

I have to look at this from a realistic point, unanimous votes are very rare. You can never really get 100% on your side no mater what you do.

[Silfren]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Do we know at this point if a unanimous vote is really required? Tradition may dictate it, but unless we know if every Divine prior got that vote, it becomes a little ambiguous.

I have to look at this from a realistic point, unanimous votes are very rare. You can never really get 100% on your side no mater what you do.

Rare or not, in those cases where a unanimous vote is required...it's, well, required.  I don't see any point in discussing how rare unanimous votes are or whether it's possible to ever truly get people 100% on your side.

The lore tells us that ritual "demands" a unanimous vote.  I had misunderstood and thought a unanimous vote was a legal requirement under Chantry standards.  It appears that it is not in fact a legal requirement.  But if ritual demands it, that's not too very different from a legal requirement.  People like their traditions and tend to get pissy when those traditions are violated...especially if adhering to the tradition could have aided Justinia's opponents in preventing her from gaining power.

My main issue is, if Justinia had gained the Divine's seat without getting the traditional unanimous vote...why wasn't there more of an uproar? I'd have thought that would be sufficiently newsworthy to hear about if Justinia's election was such a contentious one.

Granted, I don't know, and it's possible she didn't get a unanimous vote, but if so, I'd wonder how, since I'd expect Justinia's enemies to do everything in their power to block her ascension.  But all we're told is that Beatrix's will prevailed, which sounds somewhat more peaceful than you'd think it would have been. 

[Rinshikai10]

True, I have to wonder if they are just waiting for the right moment. One hypothesis could be that they hope to change Justinia to a Divine that fits their needs. The Mage assassin could have been from one of her rivals. Forcing her to act in a manner that is harsher to the Mages. Making an already bad situation worse.

However, its just a theory. For now should we just agree to disagree?

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 24 avril 2013 - 01:10 .

[Rinshikai10]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

She was willing to sack Kirkwall if the mages emancipated themselves from Meredith's dictatorship. .

Willing to? Or pressured to?
Contrary to popular belief, being the leader of a society does not mean you're free to dictate things at your whim. Those that do tend to have short reigns and earn the moniker "the mad".
Just because she ordered an exalted march on Kirkwall does not mean she's not pro-mage. It was certainly what the Chantry's conservative and militant side desired. Was it what she desired though? Or did she just not want to cross them right then and there? A small concession to prevent them from noticing the big change coming?

Big ships do not turn swiftly. And the Chantry is a huge ship indeed.

You make some good points, Sir JK.

It makes me wonder though, does the Chantry/Justinia place more importance on Elthina's life then the whole city of Kirkwall? In the quest Faith Leliana tells Hawke to get Elthina to flee the city. I see this making sense from a political view, but it would appear to only be in the Chantrys best interests, rather then those they claim to help and care for.

Is the only reason to save her just so they don't lose influence in that region?

[Sir JK]

Well... yes. But don't underestimate how powerful influence actually is. Not only is Elthina fairly beloved and someone people listen to, which is valuable to every politician. Beloved officials with diplomatic dispositions are especially important if you plan to do some major reforms... not to mention that if she's killed due to mage violence, then a lot of common people will turn against anything in favour of mages.

But she is also a grand cleric, which means she's also one of the very people you need to focus on convincing to go anywhere at all. And if Elthina is indeed killed, then the most likely replacement will be conservative and anti-mage... if only to appease the conservatives. And if you don't you pretty much sunk your own plans.
And if you plan on reforms, would you rather have non-committal Elthina or a pro-templar hardliner?

And finally... maybe she's a friend? Not the most noble and altruistic reason... but a very human one.

[azarhal]

Elthina is the only Grand Cleric that survived the event of 9:22 - of Dawn of the Seeker-. We can extrapolate this because only one survived and Elthina was already Grand Cleric in 9:21 (she named Meredith KG in 9:21).

[Rinshikai10]

Azarhal, do we know that all the Grand Clerics died? I only recall three, one stabbed by the Blood Mage staff, and two others killed by dragons.

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Azarhal, do we know that all the Grand Clerics died? I only recall three, one stabbed by the Blood Mage staff, and two others killed by dragons.

Good question, I remember someone mentioning that only one is seen alive at the end with the Divine. I never verified the claims (bad me).

[Rinshikai10]

Sir Jk

Do you believe that a back up plan is vital to any possible reform? I ask because as far as I see Justinia did not see her reform plan falling apart. Good leaders IMHO should always expect a plan to possibly fail and have back ups should that happen. From what I have seen up until now, everything came down to the research.

Even though she has Leliana help the enchanters escape, I get the impression that this was only a last minute plan to gain the Mages favor after she put them in the situation. Which later gains her no ground with them after the vote was done at the end of Asunder.

[Sir JK]

Well yeah... sure. A backup plan is always a good idea, no matter what you're doing. But I imagine that Elthina had her hands full with the main one. The tricky thing with politics is that it aims at a moving target. You're not the only one seeking people's favour and if the other side is actively opposing you then they're not going to wait either. Then there are those that are uncertain and needs constant attention so they won't change their mind. Then there's the crazy people on grassroots level doing crazy and unpredictable stuff. The ones extorting you for a bigger reward for their support. Some supporters dying/pulling out.

And then there are those who would be put off by learning of your backup plan and back out becuase of it. So you cannot let anyone know that you got one, or lay the groundwork.

It's by no means an easy task, and yeah... her actions in Asunder is more last minute improvising than carefully thought through. But sometimes you got to do such things too.

[Rinshikai10]

I think you misunderstood my post Sir JK. I did not talk about Elthina at all, I was talking solely about Justinia.

I agree that sometimes you have to work on the fly, but if you plan ahead you should be able to prepare for most situations. That comes from foreknowledge, knowing what is going on around you is key to knowing the best course of action to take. I have a feeling that Justinia does not have a large spy network, and depends far to much on too few people like Leliana. Giving her less then accurate information about the current Chantry situation.

That just my own opinion from what I have seen so far. I'm far from an expert in politics.

[MisterJB]

I just read in "The World of Thedas" that the first Divine was called Justinia I.
That can't be a coincidence. Either Justinia V will be the last Divine or she will be the first Divine of a new age for the Chantry.
I'm inclined towards the latter.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 mai 2013 - 05:28 .