1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

When you play through the first game Duncan makes it clear that they can conscript anyone they choose.  Even the Grand Cleric had to give up Alistair being a novice Templar.  This should tells us they have power over the Chantry and can over rule a Grand Cleric.  Right here tells us that they do have authority/power to conscript anyone.  The DAO novels also make this same statement.  They have the ROC. 

The Grey Wardens can conscript anyone, yes. However, if the person being conscripted does not want to join, then the Wardens have to respect their decision. They can't drag unwilling individuals to the Joining ritual.

Not rly some of the wardens have possibility to refuse then duncan use Roc and we have to go and see fate of jory(?) daveth was forced as well but if you are stronger than warden that try force you , you can pull might makes right and well...

Jory had no option because by the time he refused, he already knew about what the Joining Ritual entailed and that is one of the Warden's greatest and most closely held secrets. So it was a security matter. As for Daveth, he agreed to it willingly. When Nathaniel Howe originally refused to partake of it, the Wardens gave him the option to either be executed, imprisoned, or even let go. There was no "You have no choice". Same with everyone else. As long as you refuse before learning the Warden's secrets, you are no threat to their organization and thus they have no reason to force you to join their ranks.

Daveth was forced as far i renember and you can conscript nathaniel against his will only other way is let him out then he decides join you after some time.That is point RoC you can't refuse (well you can but you have to face the consequences).Even in DE origins you have option to refuse then duncan use RoC and he forces you. 

No, Daveth was not. He was apprehensive at first after learning the truth of the Joining, but said he was willing to risk it to kill darkspawn. And Nathaniel comes back willingly if you let him go, and you can even refuse his request. Yes, that causes him to attack you but that's not the Wardens giving him no other option. As for the Warden being "forced" by Duncan, that was a game mechanic since you need to be a Warden to continue the story. Personally, they should have let refusal to join end with the Game Over screen, but their call not mine.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

When you play through the first game Duncan makes it clear that they can conscript anyone they choose.  Even the Grand Cleric had to give up Alistair being a novice Templar.  This should tells us they have power over the Chantry and can over rule a Grand Cleric.  Right here tells us that they do have authority/power to conscript anyone.  The DAO novels also make this same statement.  They have the ROC. 

The Grey Wardens can conscript anyone, yes. However, if the person being conscripted does not want to join, then the Wardens have to respect their decision. They can't drag unwilling individuals to the Joining ritual.

Not rly some of the wardens have possibility to refuse then duncan use Roc and we have to go and see fate of jory(?) daveth was forced as well but if you are stronger than warden that try force you , you can pull might makes right and well...

Jory had no option because by the time he refused, he already knew about what the Joining Ritual entailed and that is one of the Warden's greatest and most closely held secrets. So it was a security matter. As for Daveth, he agreed to it willingly. When Nathaniel Howe originally refused to partake of it, the Wardens gave him the option to either be executed, imprisoned, or even let go. There was no "You have no choice". Same with everyone else. As long as you refuse before learning the Warden's secrets, you are no threat to their organization and thus they have no reason to force you to join their ranks.

Daveth was forced as far i renember and you can conscript nathaniel against his will only other way is let him out then he decides join you after some time.That is point RoC you can't refuse (well you can but you have to face the consequences).Even in DE origins you have option to refuse then duncan use RoC and he forces you. 

No, Daveth was not. He was apprehensive at first after learning the truth of the Joining, but said he was willing to risk it to kill darkspawn. And Nathaniel comes back willingly if you let him go, and you can even refuse his request. Yes, that causes him to attack you but that's not the Wardens giving him no other option. As for the Warden being "forced" by Duncan, that was a game mechanic since you need to be a Warden to continue the story. Personally, they should have let refusal to join end with the Game Over screen, but their call not mine.

And yes he returns by his own as i said but you have option to conscript him against his will well taking into account that dialogues are part of the story it not just game mechanic warden are perfect with forcing peoples for their goal and thats one of the nicest things that we can say about them...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
And yes he returns by his own as i said but you have option to conscript him against his will well taking into account that dialogues are part of the story it not just game mechanic warden are perfect with forcing peoples for their goal and thats one of the nicest things that we can say about them...

Pyramid was getting too big, so I snipped it.

How does "he comes back willingly" eqwuate to "forcing him to take it"?
And I know the Grey Wardens are far from a perfect order and can be manipulative when the situation calls for it. However, forcing people to join them, especially during non-Blight times, is something they can't and even won't do. Can't because it is up to the conscript whether or not they want to join up until they know Warden secrets, and won't because they aren't exactly wellfavored and have to stay neutral in situations not pertaining to them to keep what little support they have.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
And yes he returns by his own as i said but you have option to conscript him against his will well taking into account that dialogues are part of the story it not just game mechanic warden are perfect with forcing peoples for their goal and thats one of the nicest things that we can say about them...

Pyramid was getting too big, so I snipped it.

How does "he comes back willingly" eqwuate to "forcing him to take it"?
And I know the Grey Wardens are far from a perfect order and can be manipulative when the situation calls for it. However, forcing people to join them, especially during non-Blight times, is something they can't and even won't do. Can't because it is up to the conscript whether or not they want to join up until they know Warden secrets, and won't because they aren't exactly wellfavored and have to stay neutral in situations not pertaining to them to keep what little support they have.

Well scene in prison when warden want use RoC then nathaniel says "absoultly not , I want to be hanged" then warden-commander says "did i said that you have a choice?" i played that now and comically on loading screen i saw text about wardens that wardens can use RoC to recruit anybody from beggar to prince without asking for permission.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
And yes he returns by his own as i said but you have option to conscript him against his will well taking into account that dialogues are part of the story it not just game mechanic warden are perfect with forcing peoples for their goal and thats one of the nicest things that we can say about them...

Pyramid was getting too big, so I snipped it.

How does "he comes back willingly" eqwuate to "forcing him to take it"?
And I know the Grey Wardens are far from a perfect order and can be manipulative when the situation calls for it. However, forcing people to join them, especially during non-Blight times, is something they can't and even won't do. Can't because it is up to the conscript whether or not they want to join up until they know Warden secrets, and won't because they aren't exactly wellfavored and have to stay neutral in situations not pertaining to them to keep what little support they have.

Well scene in prison when warden want use RoC then nathaniel says "absoultly not , I want to be hanged" then warden-commander says "did i said that you have a choice?" i played that now and comically on loading screen i saw text about wardens that wardens can use RoC to recruit anybody from beggar to prince without asking for permission.

Ooh, so your Warden can be a jerk about it. In that same dialogue, after you say to conscript him, you can also tell them to let him go.

And the text you read means they don't need the government's consent. The indidual involved can refuse.

But this is becoming a battle of semantics. You think it means one thing, I think it means another, and there is equal evidence to support either interpretation. 

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 22 décembre 2013 - 07:59 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
And yes he returns by his own as i said but you have option to conscript him against his will well taking into account that dialogues are part of the story it not just game mechanic warden are perfect with forcing peoples for their goal and thats one of the nicest things that we can say about them...

Pyramid was getting too big, so I snipped it.

How does "he comes back willingly" eqwuate to "forcing him to take it"?
And I know the Grey Wardens are far from a perfect order and can be manipulative when the situation calls for it. However, forcing people to join them, especially during non-Blight times, is something they can't and even won't do. Can't because it is up to the conscript whether or not they want to join up until they know Warden secrets, and won't because they aren't exactly wellfavored and have to stay neutral in situations not pertaining to them to keep what little support they have.

Well scene in prison when warden want use RoC then nathaniel says "absoultly not , I want to be hanged" then warden-commander says "did i said that you have a choice?" i played that now and comically on loading screen i saw text about wardens that wardens can use RoC to recruit anybody from beggar to prince without asking for permission.

Ooh, so your Warden can be a jerk about it. In that same dialogue, after you say to conscript him, you can also tell them to let him go.

And the text you read means they don't need the government's consent. The indidual involved can refuse.

But this is becoming a battle of semantics. You think it means one thing, I think it means another, and there is equal evidence to support either interpretation. 

Well warden can be nice guy and don't follow warden traditions but he can do that by law without asking for permission person or anyone and no text was that they want without asking about their opinion pretty much warden can do that so it can be done everything we saw confirms this so....

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Well warden can be nice guy and don't follow warden traditions but he can do that by law without asking for permission person or anyone and no text was that they want without asking about their opinion pretty much warden can do that so it can be done everything we saw confirms this so....

As I said in my last post, we have equal evidence for both arguments because all evidence can be seen as either interpretation. So it's just a semantics issue. Some see it as the individual has no choice, some see it as the government has no say so in the matter and it is up to the individual.

[Magdalena11]

*Spoiler for The Calling*

Duncan would know all about the ROC because that was how he joined, against his will.  He asked to be allowed to be executed after killing Genevieve's fiancee and Genevieve wouldn't allow the sentence to be carried out, invoking the ROC to prevent it.

So when the wardens have the Right of Conscription with priority over every other organization in Thedas, it's because the blights are so devastating and they need to be able to do what they need to.  With the blight so soon over and little felt outside Ferelden, the wardens are going to have a complicated time trying to enforce it.  I imagine that might factor into part of the problem the wardens are having, having to assert their need for personnel while still dealing with the stragglers, including enlightened darkspawn?

[Angrywolves]

Magdalena11 wrote...

*Spoiler for The Calling*

Duncan would know all about the ROC because that was how he joined, against his will.  He asked to be allowed to be executed after killing Genevieve's fiancee and Genevieve wouldn't allow the sentence to be carried out, invoking the ROC to prevent it.

So when the wardens have the Right of Conscription with priority over every other organization in Thedas, it's because the blights are so devastating and they need to be able to do what they need to.  With the blight so soon over and little felt outside Ferelden, the wardens are going to have a complicated time trying to enforce it.  I imagine that might factor into part of the problem the wardens are having, having to assert their need for personnel while still dealing with the stragglers, including enlightened darkspawn?

yup.

I suspect though much like Daveth he changed his mind when he saw how crucial the wardens were.

[Rinshikai10]

You make good points Magdalena11 and Angrywolves

I wonder, if the Wardens did decided to conscript one of Justinias followers. Would that individual still remain loyal to the Divine, after The Joining?

Pure speculation, but I would not be surprised if the leaders of Thedas have tried to infiltrate to Grey Wardens over the centuries, only to lose them to the Order.

[Magdalena11]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

You make good points Magdalena11 and Angrywolves

I wonder, if the Wardens did decided to conscript one of Justinias followers. Would that individual still remain loyal to the Divine, after The Joining?

Pure speculation, but I would not be surprised if the leaders of Thedas have tried to infiltrate to Grey Wardens over the centuries, only to lose them to the Order.

That's an interesting question.  I don't think there's anything about the joining itself that requires one to serve the wardens after recruitment.  Anders left over the whole Justice thing and Alistair leaves either to become king or drunk (or dead but no one would expect him to continue under those conditions.)  Duncan was still rebellious for a time after his joining and I suspect many who were conscripted were.  I imagine the thought was that having paid the price for becoming a warden conscripts serve to make the price mean something or maybe there's a desire to be with others who've made the same sacrifice.  Bregan had to be coerced into joining the wardens by Genevieve and she describes his life as bitter and angry but he was still loyal and effective enough to be Warden Commander.

Regarding the possibility of chantry infiltrators shifting the balance of power, I can see why the chantry might have tried it.  To plant a sleeper agent and wait the years required for the agent to reach a position with enough power to change anything would be a risk.  Over those years the agent would be indoctrinated by the wardens and fight darkspawn and see firsthand why they exist.  And they have an ancient charter that wouldn't be overturned easily.  I think it would be a greater loss to the chantry losing a capable agent than a gain having an infiltrator.

There's also a possibility that Justinia and the chantry understand the reason for the ROC even though they don't like it and wouldn't consider such a thing.  

[Rinshikai10]

@Magdalena11

Do you think that Justinia would allow the conscription of one of her hands? One page or so back, it seems like the general idea is no.

I know that the Justinia has influence in Orlais, but after Asunder that appears to go done the drain. With the Circle separating, and the buck of the Templars/Seekers leaving. Could she really prevent the Wardens from conscripting Leliana or Cassandra, if they decided to do so?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I stand corrected. I forgot about Duncan's recruitment details.

Just because the Chantry lost its military branches does not mean the Chantry is now powerless. It still holds major sway over the civilian populations. If the Wardens, who would never get involved anyway due to their bid to stay neutral so would at best only fight the demons, tried to go against her they would suffer civilian revolts. As previously stated the Wardens, despite their saving the world from the Blights, are not exactly viewed favorable for the exact reason that they are exempt from any government's ruling. People view such organizations with suspicion, and if the Wardens went against the Chantry's wishes in such a way it would cause more harm to the Wardens than they would gain by having the experienced new member.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 23 décembre 2013 - 11:28 .

[Angrywolves]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I stand corrected. I forgot about Duncan's recruitment details.

Just because the Chantry lost its military branches does not mean the Chantry is now powerless. It still holds major sway over the civilian populations. If the Wardens, who would never get involved anyway due to their bid to stay neutral so would at best only fight the demons, tried to go against her they would suffer civilian revolts. As previously stated the Wardens, despite their saving the world from the Blights, are not exactly viewed favorable for the exact reason that they are exempt from any government's ruling. People view such organizations with suspicion, and if the Wardens went against the Chantry's wishes in such a way it would cause more harm to the Wardens than they would gain by having the experienced new member.

Thety still seem to have a military.I saw troops lined up in Kirkwall in a scene.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Angrywolves wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I stand corrected. I forgot about Duncan's recruitment details.

Just because the Chantry lost its military branches does not mean the Chantry is now powerless. It still holds major sway over the civilian populations. If the Wardens, who would never get involved anyway due to their bid to stay neutral so would at best only fight the demons, tried to go against her they would suffer civilian revolts. As previously stated the Wardens, despite their saving the world from the Blights, are not exactly viewed favorable for the exact reason that they are exempt from any government's ruling. People view such organizations with suspicion, and if the Wardens went against the Chantry's wishes in such a way it would cause more harm to the Wardens than they would gain by having the experienced new member.

Thety still seem to have a military.I saw troops lined up in Kirkwall in a scene.

Well, many nations are followers of the Chantry, so much like in the real world Crusades, they can easily call those nations to fight for their cause. Just another example of how the Chantry is far from powerless even without their Templars and Seekers.

[Rinshikai10]

I don't think that the Chantry are powerless. Just not as strong as it was, say ten years ago. After the events over the last ten years, it looks like the Chantry in turning in on itself.

Divided leadership
Loss of influence on a large scale
Has a leader that underestimated those she flat out ignored, and made many assumptions that did not go the way she planed.

All in all, I would say that Justinia and the Chantry are going to end up like Ecclesia from the Kingdom Under Fire games. They will survive, but they will be only a fraction of what they once were.

If I remember correctly, Alistair's conscription was against the wishes of the Grand Cleric herself, she even threatened have Duncan jailed. But it still happened, even in a nation that does not have a great deal of warden influence.

[Angrywolves]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I don't think that the Chantry are powerless. Just not as strong as it was, say ten years ago. After the events over the last ten years, it looks like the Chantry in turning in on itself.

Divided leadership
Loss of influence on a large scale
Has a leader that underestimated those she flat out ignored, and made many assumptions that did not go the way she planed.

All in all, I would say that Justinia and the Chantry are going to end up like Ecclesia from the Kingdom Under Fire games. They will survive, but they will be only a fraction of what they once were.

If I remember correctly, Alistair's conscription was against the wishes of the Grand Cleric herself, she even threatened have Duncan jailed. But it still happened, even in a nation that does not have a great deal of warden influence.

Of course she knew who Allistair was.
Having him as a pawn she could use was probably her reasoning.<_<

[Rinshikai10]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I stand corrected. I forgot about Duncan's recruitment details.

Just because the Chantry lost its military branches does not mean the Chantry is now powerless. It still holds major sway over the civilian populations. If the Wardens, who would never get involved anyway due to their bid to stay neutral so would at best only fight the demons, tried to go against her they would suffer civilian revolts. As previously stated the Wardens, despite their saving the world from the Blights, are not exactly viewed favorable for the exact reason that they are exempt from any government's ruling. People view such organizations with suspicion, and if the Wardens went against the Chantry's wishes in such a way it would cause more harm to the Wardens than they would gain by having the experienced new member.

Thety still seem to have a military.I saw troops lined up in Kirkwall in a scene.

Well, many nations are followers of the Chantry, so much like in the real world Crusades, they can easily call those nations to fight for their cause. Just another example of how the Chantry is far from powerless even without their Templars and Seekers.

I think I remember either from Dev's or WOT, that the reason nations followed the Chantry on Exalted Marches was mainly so they would not be called heretics.

Now that the Chantry is losing control, and Orlais is going through a civil war. I'm betting that the other nations will focus on strengthening their own borders, leaving the Empire and Chantry to their own devices.

[Angrywolves]

The chantry will still have volunteers who will join the chantry's military.

[Magdalena11]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@Magdalena11

Do you think that Justinia would allow the conscription of one of her hands? One page or so back, it seems like the general idea is no.

I know that the Justinia has influence in Orlais, but after Asunder that appears to go done the drain. With the Circle separating, and the buck of the Templars/Seekers leaving. Could she really prevent the Wardens from conscripting Leliana or Cassandra, if they decided to do so?

I don't think she could stop the conscription of Leliana or Cassandra.  I forget who (sorry) pointed out that the revered mother almost certainly knew Ali's parentage and possible connections but could do nothing to stop his conscription.  I think I remember reading that the ROC extended to everyone, even princes.

Even though she probably can't stop the wardens from conscripting her hands if they wanted to, I don't think they'd want to  stir up the Divine unless they had no choice.  

[Rinshikai10]

Angrywolves wrote...

The chantry will still have volunteers who will join the chantry's military.

I would question the effectiveness of using volunteer soldiers. Yes I agree that some may come to her willing to help. However, if they lack training, equipment, and supplies. Are they going to be an asset, or will the drain the Chantry's resources?

In Asunder it sounds like many able bodies were already conscripted by the nobles, either being dragged off the streets, or willingly going just to get regular meals. (The main gate to the Capital was closed so that draft dodgers could not escape)

Leaving Justinia with few options, other then looking for the HOF, and the COK hoping that they will help.

[Angrywolves]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

The chantry will still have volunteers who will join the chantry's military.

I would question the effectiveness of using volunteer soldiers. Yes I agree that some may come to her willing to help. However, if they lack training, equipment, and supplies. Are they going to be an asset, or will the drain the Chantry's resources?

In Asunder it sounds like many able bodies were already conscripted by the nobles, either being dragged off the streets, or willingly going just to get regular meals. (The main gate to the Capital was closed so that draft dodgers could not escape)

Leaving Justinia with few options, other then looking for the HOF, and the COK hoping that they will help.

If properly trained a volunteer army can be effective.Been a while since the US has had a conscripted army.
I don't know if the troops won't be properly trained or equipped.That's an assumption you're making that may not be accurate.
There are always mercenaries as well as volunteers from other countries who are true believers who could join the chantry's military arm. So there's no reason for the chantry to just rely on Orlesians.Might be to their advantage not to just try to rely on Orlesians.
As far as the chantry resources, we don't know how extensive those are, whether they've been saved and properly managed or squandered. I guess we'll find out in DAI what those resources are.<_<

[Rinshikai10]

True, a lot my what I'm saying is just my own opinion of the situation.

If Justinia does get mercenaries to fight for her, I see her having to increase their payment over time just to keep them loyal. If someone else was to offer them more, and she couldn't beat it, chances are they would not hesitate to leave.

If trained well, I agree a volunteer army can be effective.

I have no doubt that Justinia could gather like minded individuals from across Thedas. However, even if the share the same faith, they may not be able to work together due to nationality. To me, it seems like a very difficult task to try and get Fereldans, Nevarrans, and Marchers to stand with Orlesians after the nine hundred years of conquest and occupation done by the Empire and the Chantry.

When talking about resources, are you referring to the Orlesians, or the Chantry?

[Angrywolves]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

True, a lot my what I'm saying is just my own opinion of the situation.

If Justinia does get mercenaries to fight for her, I see her having to increase their payment over time just to keep them loyal. If someone else was to offer them more, and she couldn't beat it, chances are they would not hesitate to leave.

If trained well, I agree a volunteer army can be effective.

I have no doubt that Justinia could gather like minded individuals from across Thedas. However, even if the share the same faith, they may not be able to work together due to nationality. To me, it seems like a very difficult task to try and get Fereldans, Nevarrans, and Marchers to stand with Orlesians after the nine hundred years of conquest and occupation done by the Empire and the Chantry.

When talking about resources, are you referring to the Orlesians, or the Chantry?

chantry resources
If you compare them to say, the Roman Catholic Church, their natural analogy, then they probably have enormous financial resources.
But I suspect corruption on the part of past Divines as well as Lambert and others like him. so I am not sure.

Religious fevor seems to overcome nationality differences, it seems to have done done so in organizations like AlQueda and the Taliban, which have members fromn different countries. True the Orlesinans have been heavy handed but people from different countries did participate in Exalted Marches it seems, so those differences can be overcome.

[Rinshikai10]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chantry and Empire have a great deal of wealth stored after centuries of conquest. Living on the fat, as they say.

I'm betting that Orlesian nobles will spend it on costly wants, like parties that could feed a village for a year.

While Justinia will try to use her resources to try and gain what was lost in Asunder.

Like I said a few post up, I believe that the main reason nations took part in the exalted matches is so they would not be called heretics. With Orlais infighting, I see other nations possibly seeing this a good thing, maybe even the Makers will. (Pure Speculation)