1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Angrywolves]

Maybe.But you need the Orlesians to help if the Qunari launch another invasion.Remember Sten said the Arishok would be sending them back to Ferelden some day, presumably as part of some invasion.Other nations need a unified Orlais to help fight the Qunari.
So I am not sure other nations necessarily like Orlais falling apart.

[Rinshikai10]

If the Qunari do invade, I would think that many nations are screwed. From what I remember, Mages are the only known counter to the Qunari black powder and canons. Now that the Circles have declared independence they are under no obligation to help the Chantry or any nation in Thedas.

Chances are if they do help Justina fight the Qunari, should the invasion happen, then they may be forced back into the Circle system, once the fighting ends. (Just my opinion)

[Master Warder Z_]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If the Qunari do invade, I would think that many nations are screwed. From what I remember, Mages are the only known counter to the Qunari black powder and canons. Now that the Circles have declared independence they are under no obligation to help the Chantry or any nation in Thedas.

Chances are if they do help Justina fight the Qunari, should the invasion happen, then they may be forced back into the Circle system, once the fighting ends. (Just my opinion)

You likely would see the majority of bickering cease once the Qunari arrived, it occured last time they invaded after all.

It caused the imperium and mainland thedas to actually fight together against a common foe for the first since the blight  

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 24 décembre 2013 - 08:52 .

[Rinshikai10]

With the fade being torn and other problems that seem to be popping out of the wood work, I think that is easier said then done.

All I know is if the Qunari invade in DAI, Mages are going to be in high demand in southern Thedas.

[Angrywolves]

Probably won't invade until DA4, if there is a DA4.
Burt there's always the threat.

[Rinshikai10]

True, same can be said for just about any force in Thedas. Darkspawn, Demons, Undead, Dictators, and so on. If its not one thing its another.

[Rinshikai10]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If the Qunari do invade, I would think that many nations are screwed. From what I remember, Mages are the only known counter to the Qunari black powder and canons. Now that the Circles have declared independence they are under no obligation to help the Chantry or any nation in Thedas.

Chances are if they do help Justina fight the Qunari, should the invasion happen, then they may be forced back into the Circle system, once the fighting ends. (Just my opinion)

You likely would see the majority of bickering cease once the Qunari arrived, it occured last time they invaded after all.

It caused the imperium and mainland thedas to actually fight together against a common foe for the first since the blight  

Haven't the nations of Thedas only ever took a blight seriously when its on their individual doorsteps? Its seems that every time a Blight has happened, the Wardens have to pressure nations into working together.

While the Chantry is widespread, it appears that each nation still has a different view on how the Mages should be treated. Ferelden and Nevarra seem to be less intolerant of Mages compared to The Free Marches and Orlais.

If Justinia was going to ally with certain nations, I would think that Ferelden and Nevarra would be the best bet. However, they both have a flimsy relationship with Orlais at best.

While Justinia is the head of the Chantry, she may still be seen as an Orlesian trying to grab power.

Just my opinion.

Merry Christmas!

[Angrywolves]

How long has Justinia been the Divine ?
By now people should have a pretty good assessment of how the chantry operates.
My guess is the Divine is seen more as an allfigure type of person and not an Orlesisan.
I suspect people are more wary of Lambert than they are of Justinia.Just my opinion though.

[Rinshikai10]

Justinia has been in power for six years by the end of DA2.

I have my doubts that Justinia is really seen as an individual person to the general public of Thedas. This is just my opinion, but I think her title is the only thing most people know. If asked what they know about the Divine, chance are the too most common answers are shes the head of the Chantry and she is Orlesian.

[dragonflight288]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Justinia has been in power for six years by the end of DA2.

I have my doubts that Justinia is really seen as an individual person to the general public of Thedas. This is just my opinion, but I think her title is the only thing most people know. If asked what they know about the Divine, chance are the too most common answers are shes the head of the Chantry and she is Orlesian.

Some of the more devout may know her name and her background, but for the most part, I think you're right about the layman.

[Rinshikai10]

I believe that's true in a lot of medieval settings that have a multinational organizations. While that individual may have considerable influence in the capital city or founding nation. The further out one goes, the less direct influence they have.

Chances are Herman the Anders soldier doesn't care who the Divine is, because she doesn't effect his life. While Fifi the Orlesian cares a lot, because she works at Grand Cathedral where the Divine lives.


(Edit)
It makes me wonder just how much power Justinia really has by the time of DAI.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 28 décembre 2013 - 05:01 .

[Sir JK]

Chances are she has huge amounts of power, but she's not all powerful. Nor is she at complete liberty in how to use it. Power has this interesting little paradox that the more power you have, the less freedom you have to use it as you please. So a lot of it will be needed just to manage the day-to-day of the Chantry itself.

Her primary sphere of power will be legitimacy and influence. Her primary means of influence will be public speaking and leading opinions. It does not sound like much but consider:
This woman has the attention of the world and the ears of kings. There's a lot of power to be had there. Not only that, but she has the power to provide the kings legitimate war (Exalted Marches) and going against her decrees risk enraging entire nations.

She might not be able to tell kings what to do, but she can tell them what not to do with severe consequences should they not obey her.

Naturally, the templar and mage conflict muddles things somewhat. But her chief powerbase is, and always was, not the armed branch or the mystics but the peasants of the world. As long as they listen, she can influence nations.

Modifié par Sir JK, 29 décembre 2013 - 10:00 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sir JK wrote...

Chances are she has huge amounts of power, but she's not all powerful. Nor is she at complete liberty in how to use it. Power has this interesting little paradox that the more power you have, the less freedom you have to use it as you please. So a lot of it will be needed just to manage the day-to-day of the Chantry itself.

He must disagree



Truth is more power you have more you can do whatever you like if you are weak and end in ruling  position you end without possibility using that like elthina.

And divine ended alone with few peoples every nation have own problems and wars now i doubt they will let their countries fall because divine isn't pleased she is desperate and can't do anything so she is looking for someone will clean her mess. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 décembre 2013 - 10:22 .

[Sir JK]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
He must disagree

I fear I do not get the reference.

Truth is more power you have more you can do whatever you like if you are weak and end in ruling  position you end without possibility using that like elthina.

It's actually more of the opposite. Weak leaders are those that think that power allows them to do as they please and do not bother maintaining it. It's those that rather than pay attention go on hunting trips, host parties (with the intent to feast rather than to provide a political idea) and those that take their power for granted.

Strong leaders accept that they are not free, but spend their efforts to ensure that their powerbase wants what they want. Strong leaders lead. They do not bother pretending they can do as they please. They get to work making sure that their shackles are their strength. Generous to their friends, protective over their dependents and terrible to their enemies.
It's something that demands a lot of effort from them as persons, sometimes all of it. Not something remotely close to being easy.

And divine ended alone with few peoples every nation have own problems and wars now i doubt they will let their countries fall because divine isn't pleased she is desperate and can't do anything so she is looking for someone will clean her mess. 

We don't actually know this. We know she lost the templars and mages, but nothing about what this means on a geopolitical level. The various kings and nobles throughout Thedas have thier own issues to deal with, as you say, but this does not mean that they have nothing to lend her. Especially since if she grants legitimacy then supporting her will make them stronger, not weaker.

I suspect that at the earliest, we'll know what her position actually is in Stolen Throne. Else when the game comes around.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sir JK wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
He must disagree

I fear I do not get the reference.

Truth is more power you have more you can do whatever you like if you are weak and end in ruling  position you end without possibility using that like elthina.

It's actually more of the opposite. Weak leaders are those that think that power allows them to do as they please and do not bother maintaining it. It's those that rather than pay attention go on hunting trips, host parties (with the intent to feast rather than to provide a political idea) and those that take their power for granted.

Strong leaders accept that they are not free, but spend their efforts to ensure that their powerbase wants what they want. Strong leaders lead. They do not bother pretending they can do as they please. They get to work making sure that their shackles are their strength. Generous to their friends, protective over their dependents and terrible to their enemies.
It's something that demands a lot of effort from them as persons, sometimes all of it. Not something remotely close to being easy.

And divine ended alone with few peoples every nation have own problems and wars now i doubt they will let their countries fall because divine isn't pleased she is desperate and can't do anything so she is looking for someone will clean her mess. 

We don't actually know this. We know she lost the templars and mages, but nothing about what this means on a geopolitical level. The various kings and nobles throughout Thedas have thier own issues to deal with, as you say, but this does not mean that they have nothing to lend her. Especially since if she grants legitimacy then supporting her will make them stronger, not weaker.

I suspect that at the earliest, we'll know what her position actually is in Stolen Throne. Else when the game comes around.

1.Aizen one of strongest characters in bleach no one could mach him he could do what he wanted even forced loyalyty over other characters.

2.Not rly if leader is for example invincible in terms of power he can do what he want because no one can stop him more power he have then more freedom he can achieve for example tevinter is rather not very restrained. When weak leader is forced to follow laws and rules society because simple others will remove him if he don't (dumar).So ultimately more power you have less restrained you are (because only stronger can force you) unless you decide follow your codex or others by your own will. 

3.She have nothing to offer as i said she lost her army templars and seekers with few loyal peoples left and she don't have power over mages anymore.Peoples have own problems and well if templars win (and well rather they will) she is screwd because they will quickly remove her so any her supporter will ****** off templar army not reciving anything that support woman that lost support.She lost voice because she can stop all that mess and lost her hand to force others to stop that mess divine always was just to look pretty when templars had power and this is shown when divine start make decisions that templars don't want to.
 

[SeekerOfLight]

Sir JK wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
He must disagree

I fear I do not get the reference.

Truth is more power you have more you can do whatever you like if you are weak and end in ruling  position you end without possibility using that like elthina.

It's actually more of the opposite. Weak leaders are those that think that power allows them to do as they please and do not bother maintaining it. It's those that rather than pay attention go on hunting trips, host parties (with the intent to feast rather than to provide a political idea) and those that take their power for granted.

Strong leaders accept that they are not free, but spend their efforts to ensure that their powerbase wants what they want. Strong leaders lead. They do not bother pretending they can do as they please. They get to work making sure that their shackles are their strength. Generous to their friends, protective over their dependents and terrible to their enemies.
It's something that demands a lot of effort from them as persons, sometimes all of it. Not something remotely close to being easy.

And divine ended alone with few peoples every nation have own problems and wars now i doubt they will let their countries fall because divine isn't pleased she is desperate and can't do anything so she is looking for someone will clean her mess. 

We don't actually know this. We know she lost the templars and mages, but nothing about what this means on a geopolitical level. The various kings and nobles throughout Thedas have thier own issues to deal with, as you say, but this does not mean that they have nothing to lend her. Especially since if she grants legitimacy then supporting her will make them stronger, not weaker.

I suspect that at the earliest, we'll know what her position actually is in Stolen Throne. Else when the game comes around.

I would agree on  the point though she lost the templars and the seekers, Justinia lost alot of her martial power. And that she has other resources she can use (she's still the Divine, that title still carries alot of weight).

The main issue is that with Orlais in the middle of a civil war, the traditional allies that she would be able to call on will be too busy to help, and of course there's that puppetmaster that tore the veil ensuring that all the other leaders have their own problems.

So yes, while she isn't completely powerless, the real question is whether her remaining influence will be enough to protect herself?, let alone sway all the disparate groups that need swaying.

[Angrywolves]

I thought it was the Masked Empire that's coming out.I thought it wo\\uld be about Orlais and then we could judge how much influence the chantry still had on the nobility there.

Like I said I suspect as with any world girdling religion there are zealots that will come and rally to the chantry's cause Orlais or no Orlais and an army and resources can be obtained that way.

[ianvillan]

Divine Justinia should still have the peasants and merchant classes supporting her which might make some nobles hesitant about moving against her for turning there own people against them.

Another course she could do is to try to get the Elves on her side, it would be an extremely difficult task but one that could prove invaluable to the Chantry.

Some Mages know she was willing to work with them to improve their position, so she could possibly get the Mages to support her for some guarantees for them.

Not all the Templars are as blood thirsty as Lambert and the vast majority are truly devoted to the Chant of light and don't want a war, if she could speak to them and convince them to her side she could sway a vast part of the Templar order to her.

This war coming is Justinias to win or loose, she could make the Chantry a better stronger order or it could fracture apart and be nothing but a small voice in the world.

From what we know of Justinia (which is not much so far) I believe she is a shrewd person who might of seen this war coming and may of prepared some plans for when it did and if the Inquisitor helps her she may come out stronger then before.

[Angrywolves]

I want Justinia removed as Divine and if my Inquisitor can do it I will.

The chantry needs a complete overehaul and a clean slate.:innocent:

Modifié par Angrywolves, 29 décembre 2013 - 08:06 .

[Hellion Rex]

Angrywolves wrote...

I want Justinia removed as Divine and if my Inquisitor can do it I will.

The chantry needs a complete overehaul and a clean slate.:innocent:

Nope. She stays. Shrugs.

[Angrywolves]

eluvianix wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

I want Justinia removed as Divine and if my Inquisitor can do it I will.

The chantry needs a complete overehaul and a clean slate.:innocent:

Nope. She stays. Shrugs.

we shall see.If we have the choice of removing her.

[ianvillan]

Angrywolves wrote...

I want Justinia removed as Divine and if my Inquisitor can do it I will.

The chantry needs a complete overehaul and a clean slate.:innocent:

Here I am undecided, we have not seen much of Justinia to get a measure of what she is like and if she would be capable of changing the Chantry for the better.

There is no guarantee that removing Justinia would make things better they could make thing a lot worse, You could get a hardliner as next Divine who undoes what you created, putting a weak mouthpiece as divine is not much better because they could then be controlled by different people.

The Chantry is a religion not a country which you can remove the person in charge without much problem, the people see her as chosen by the Maker that is not something that is easily changed, it also risks splintering the Chantry in to different religions all believing there's is the right one and causing centuries of religious warfare.
 
I would try to stabilise the Chantry if possible and then work with the Divine to change it and make it better with her help, if she is not that person then I would remove her but I would like to see if she would see that the Chantry needs changing before deciding she must go.

[Angrywolves]

Obviously if I could I would pick the Divine.Whether we have the ability as Inquisitor to do that remains to be seen.Some players think we won't have that ability or the ability to influence the chantry at all.I disagree with them.

I think reforming the chantry is critical for the stability of Thedas.

[ianvillan]

Angrywolves wrote...

Obviously if I could I would pick the Divine.Whether we have the ability as Inquisitor to do that remains to be seen.Some players think we won't have that ability or the ability to influence the chantry at all.I disagree with them.

I think reforming the chantry is critical for the stability of Thedas.

I also think reforming the Chantry has to happen and I think your right that we will get to choose who will be Divine of the Chantry. I also don't believe that we would be able to wipe out the Chantry like some people want.

[Hellion Rex]

If Justinia goes, I will crown Leliana as the next Divine!!!