1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Angrywolves]

True the Divine WAS selected by the Grand Clerics.Not in DAI if I can prevent it.,

No more Lamberts that's for sure.Like I have said, I intend my Inquisitor to choose the next Divine.I hope it's easy but if I have to do it the hard way then so be.

Modifié par Angrywolves, 31 décembre 2013 - 05:14 .

[Rinshikai10]

Angrywolves wrote...

I doubt Justinia is powerless.The troops that were sent to Kirkwall shows she isn't powerless.Players who say she is are underestimating her imo.

Shes not powerless, but sending about dozen troops to Kirkwall, does not make her strong. From the way Cassandra acts throughout DA2, Justinia is desperate for aid.

[Sir JK]

[quote]TheKomandorShepard wrote...
2.Well more power you have quicker you will able change things for example "god" if have absolute power isn't restreined by anything (unless he choose to) so he is free as free you be.So if you are restreined by society that means that you are not powerful enough and if you are forced to do what others please then you don't have power. [/quote]

Omnipotence is another matter entirely. I was arguing more mundane forms of power. I assure you, if we start meeting confirmed omnipotent being I'll adjust my position. Until then I'll keep it

[quote]3.And what priest can do pray priest are useless and many priest is corrupted others will disagree with her mages view and well she is already suspicious about her shady past.
Peoples don't live serving her peoples belive in chantry (not her) and chantry position has been weakened and many will hate her for what she did (freeing mages) besides that peoples have own problems pesants (who are most vulnerable on chantry word can't do anything and have own problems , nobles are mostly corrupt and hardly will care about what chantry will want all they care is money and position and world is in war.
She can't do what she likes divine is decorative figure all she do to have look pretty and clean if she star spend money what she like others will quickly see that and especially on shady things she will be done ignoring
loyalty of the crows she would end kicked out from chantry.[/quote]

Priests are among the most natural leaders there is in society. Very often in history, priests have been involved in many of the popular revolts. Not to mention that some of the great statesmen of history where priests. For instance, a metaphorical term for political genius is a grey eminence, which refers to Cardinal Richelieu's (a priest) right hand man: Francois Leclerc du Tremblay. Who was a monk.

Saying that Justinia has no power because she is a priest is like saying that the pope have none. Which is blatantly untrue. He's one of the most powerful men in the world, even today.

I do agree however that her position has been weakened. My argument, however, is that we cannot know how much. The key questions is whether she still retains the support of the masses and the bulk of the chantry. If she does, then she's still immensely powerful.

[/quote]

[TheKomandorShepard]

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]TheKomandorShepard wrote...
2.Well more power you have quicker you will able change things for example "god" if have absolute power isn't restreined by anything (unless he choose to) so he is free as free you be.So if you are restreined by society that means that you are not powerful enough and if you are forced to do what others please then you don't have power. [/quote]

Omnipotence is another matter entirely. I was arguing more mundane forms of power. I assure you, if we start meeting confirmed omnipotent being I'll adjust my position. Until then I'll keep it

[quote]3.And what priest can do pray priest are useless and many priest is corrupted others will disagree with her mages view and well she is already suspicious about her shady past.
Peoples don't live serving her peoples belive in chantry (not her) and chantry position has been weakened and many will hate her for what she did (freeing mages) besides that peoples have own problems pesants (who are most vulnerable on chantry word can't do anything and have own problems , nobles are mostly corrupt and hardly will care about what chantry will want all they care is money and position and world is in war.
She can't do what she likes divine is decorative figure all she do to have look pretty and clean if she star spend money what she like others will quickly see that and especially on shady things she will be done ignoring
loyalty of the crows she would end kicked out from chantry.[/quote]

Priests are among the most natural leaders there is in society. Very often in history, priests have been involved in many of the popular revolts. Not to mention that some of the great statesmen of history where priests. For instance, a metaphorical term for political genius is a grey eminence, which refers to Cardinal Richelieu's (a priest) right hand man: Francois Leclerc du Tremblay. Who was a monk.

Saying that Justinia has no power because she is a priest is like saying that the pope have none. Which is blatantly untrue. He's one of the most powerful men in the world, even today.

I do agree however that her position has been weakened. My argument, however, is that we cannot know how much. The key questions is whether she still retains the support of the masses and the bulk of the chantry. If she does, then she's still immensely powerful.

[/quote]
[/quote]

1.Well as i said power that you can use to please others isn't power or is only on pure technical (illusion) level but if you actually have power (political) and you can maintain it then you are more free than for example your minion who have to listen to you.In orlais empress may do what she wants as long she manages suppress uprising and avoid being killed .

2.And i still fail to see what priest can do outside of talk about peace and maker they don't hold any power not to mention that they can't fight and as i said you can only say how many supports divine and her views especially that grand cleric in ferelden outright hate mages when she is to dumb to use mages in ostagar (well she was probably grand cleric i can't remember but she was in charge)

3.Chantry collapses she is desperate enough to seek her enemies (or at least peoples who she thought are her enemies) to help her pretty much asunder proves who had real power in chantry divine is incompetent and was defeated by old ugly guy (lambert rocks:devil:) not to mention that she kicked both sides so both hate her now not to mention her stupidity in kirkwall. She is chantry face nothing more and my inquisitor will deliver her and her organiastion final blow by any mean.  
      

[Sir JK]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
1.Well as i said power that you can use to please others isn't power or is only on pure technical (illusion) level but if you actually have power (political) and you can maintain it then you are more free than for example your minion who have to listen to you.In orlais empress may do what she wants as long she manages suppress uprising and avoid being killed .

All power stems from your ability to make others believe you can help them. In this Justinia is no different from Celene, Alistair, the First Warden or Meredith. Maintaining it is all about reinforcing this idea.

You've correctly identified that this is Justinia's failing when it comes to mages and templars, but mind that Celene has a noble rebellion (and possibly an elven one as well) on her hands for the exact same reason, in the Anderfels the wardens are considering to seize power and in Ferelden Loghain couldn't control the bannorn of Ferelden because noone trusted he'd make their lives better.

Power is all about making people believe in you. If you can't... you lose it. In a heartbeat.

Which is why it's a fulltime job keeping it.

2.And i still fail to see what priest can do outside of talk about peace and maker they don't hold any power not to mention that they can't fight and as i said you can only say how many supports divine and her views especially that grand cleric in ferelden outright hate mages when she is to dumb to use mages in ostagar (well she was probably grand cleric i can't remember but she was in charge)

Priests can talk about war too, you know . It's a priest that declares Exalted Marches for instance... -the- priest we're talking about in fact.
More seriously... Priests can have power the same way anyone else can. It's all about a mix of inspiration, fear and trust. Being able to fight yourself isn't important as long as you have people willing to do it for you.

3.Chantry collapses she is desperate enough to seek her enemies (or at least peoples who she thought are her enemies) to help her pretty much asunder proves who had real power in chantry divine is incompetent and was defeated by old ugly guy (lambert rocks:devil:) not to mention that she kicked both sides so both hate her now not to mention her stupidity in kirkwall.

Perhaps.

She is chantry face nothing more and my inquisitor will deliver her and her organiastion final blow by any mean.  

Good luck.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sir JK wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
1.Well as i said power that you can use to please others isn't power or is only on pure technical (illusion) level but if you actually have power (political) and you can maintain it then you are more free than for example your minion who have to listen to you.In orlais empress may do what she wants as long she manages suppress uprising and avoid being killed .

All power stems from your ability to make others believe you can help them. In this Justinia is no different from Celene, Alistair, the First Warden or Meredith. Maintaining it is all about reinforcing this idea.

You've correctly identified that this is Justinia's failing when it comes to mages and templars, but mind that Celene has a noble rebellion (and possibly an elven one as well) on her hands for the exact same reason, in the Anderfels the wardens are considering to seize power and in Ferelden Loghain couldn't control the bannorn of Ferelden because noone trusted he'd make their lives better.

Power is all about making people believe in you. If you can't... you lose it. In a heartbeat.

Which is why it's a fulltime job keeping it.

2.And i still fail to see what priest can do outside of talk about peace and maker they don't hold any power not to mention that they can't fight and as i said you can only say how many supports divine and her views especially that grand cleric in ferelden outright hate mages when she is to dumb to use mages in ostagar (well she was probably grand cleric i can't remember but she was in charge)

Priests can talk about war too, you know . It's a priest that declares Exalted Marches for instance... -the- priest we're talking about in fact.
More seriously... Priests can have power the same way anyone else can. It's all about a mix of inspiration, fear and trust. Being able to fight yourself isn't important as long as you have people willing to do it for you.

3.Chantry collapses she is desperate enough to seek her enemies (or at least peoples who she thought are her enemies) to help her pretty much asunder proves who had real power in chantry divine is incompetent and was defeated by old ugly guy (lambert rocks:devil:) not to mention that she kicked both sides so both hate her now not to mention her stupidity in kirkwall.

Perhaps.

She is chantry face nothing more and my inquisitor will deliver her and her organiastion final blow by any mean.  

Good luck.

Divine is only face she have no real power as i said she was there only to just look pretty and asunder proved that.You can rule by fear even more effective than by love pretty much History is full of tyrants that were above law and had immunity.About loghain i can tell only that i always saw him as incompetent villain who made stupid decisions and as far i was more impressed by archdemon.  

2.Hah i want to see everyone throwing their country in crisis because chantry have desire to declare
exalted marche as far i see chantry a bunch of incompetent fools that can't do anything correctly and i will play that my inquisition do. 

3.Well only truth here.

4.It won't be hard they are unstable from beginning they are hypocrites that try play moral kicking more dogs revya on demon path they proved once than more time they are incompetent and now they are in turmoil adding that we will have option to show world chantry shady matters it shouldn't be so hard. 

[Magdalena11]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
1.Well as i said power that you can use to please others isn't power or is only on pure technical (illusion) level but if you actually have power (political) and you can maintain it then you are more free than for example your minion who have to listen to you.In orlais empress may do what she wants as long she manages suppress uprising and avoid being killed .

All power stems from your ability to make others believe you can help them. In this Justinia is no different from Celene, Alistair, the First Warden or Meredith. Maintaining it is all about reinforcing this idea.

You've correctly identified that this is Justinia's failing when it comes to mages and templars, but mind that Celene has a noble rebellion (and possibly an elven one as well) on her hands for the exact same reason, in the Anderfels the wardens are considering to seize power and in Ferelden Loghain couldn't control the bannorn of Ferelden because noone trusted he'd make their lives better.

Power is all about making people believe in you. If you can't... you lose it. In a heartbeat.

Which is why it's a fulltime job keeping it.

2.And i still fail to see what priest can do outside of talk about peace and maker they don't hold any power not to mention that they can't fight and as i said you can only say how many supports divine and her views especially that grand cleric in ferelden outright hate mages when she is to dumb to use mages in ostagar (well she was probably grand cleric i can't remember but she was in charge)

Priests can talk about war too, you know . It's a priest that declares Exalted Marches for instance... -the- priest we're talking about in fact.
More seriously... Priests can have power the same way anyone else can. It's all about a mix of inspiration, fear and trust. Being able to fight yourself isn't important as long as you have people willing to do it for you.

3.Chantry collapses she is desperate enough to seek her enemies (or at least peoples who she thought are her enemies) to help her pretty much asunder proves who had real power in chantry divine is incompetent and was defeated by old ugly guy (lambert rocks:devil:) not to mention that she kicked both sides so both hate her now not to mention her stupidity in kirkwall.

Perhaps.

She is chantry face nothing more and my inquisitor will deliver her and her organiastion final blow by any mean.  

Good luck.

Divine is only face she have no real power as i said she was there only to just look pretty and asunder proved that.You can rule by fear even more effective than by love pretty much History is full of tyrants that were above law and had immunity.About loghain i can tell only that i always saw him as incompetent villain who made stupid decisions and as far i was more impressed by archdemon.  

2.Hah i want to see everyone throwing their country in crisis because chantry have desire to declare
exalted marche as far i see chantry a bunch of incompetent fools that can't do anything correctly and i will play that my inquisition do. 

3.Well only truth here.

4.It won't be hard they are unstable from beginning they are hypocrites that try play moral kicking more dogs revya on demon path they proved once than more time they are incompetent and now they are in turmoil adding that we will have option to show world chantry shady matters it shouldn't be so hard. 

I think Justinia is a sensible person and wields the power to shape the chantry into something new and effective.  I look forward to the role she will play in DAI.  If I'm allowed a say on this in my game, I will keep her in power and just ditch her lieutenants.

@ TheKomandorShepherd - can you clarify a word so I can understand you?  Most of your post can be worked out but I don't know what you mean by the word "revya."  You're doing so much better getting your point across now that you are simplifying it.  Whether I or anyone else agrees with you, it's nice that you're more able to speak your mind.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Magdalena11 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
1.Well as i said power that you can use to please others isn't power or is only on pure technical (illusion) level but if you actually have power (political) and you can maintain it then you are more free than for example your minion who have to listen to you.In orlais empress may do what she wants as long she manages suppress uprising and avoid being killed .

All power stems from your ability to make others believe you can help them. In this Justinia is no different from Celene, Alistair, the First Warden or Meredith. Maintaining it is all about reinforcing this idea.

You've correctly identified that this is Justinia's failing when it comes to mages and templars, but mind that Celene has a noble rebellion (and possibly an elven one as well) on her hands for the exact same reason, in the Anderfels the wardens are considering to seize power and in Ferelden Loghain couldn't control the bannorn of Ferelden because noone trusted he'd make their lives better.

Power is all about making people believe in you. If you can't... you lose it. In a heartbeat.

Which is why it's a fulltime job keeping it.

2.And i still fail to see what priest can do outside of talk about peace and maker they don't hold any power not to mention that they can't fight and as i said you can only say how many supports divine and her views especially that grand cleric in ferelden outright hate mages when she is to dumb to use mages in ostagar (well she was probably grand cleric i can't remember but she was in charge)

Priests can talk about war too, you know . It's a priest that declares Exalted Marches for instance... -the- priest we're talking about in fact.
More seriously... Priests can have power the same way anyone else can. It's all about a mix of inspiration, fear and trust. Being able to fight yourself isn't important as long as you have people willing to do it for you.

3.Chantry collapses she is desperate enough to seek her enemies (or at least peoples who she thought are her enemies) to help her pretty much asunder proves who had real power in chantry divine is incompetent and was defeated by old ugly guy (lambert rocks:devil:) not to mention that she kicked both sides so both hate her now not to mention her stupidity in kirkwall.

Perhaps.

She is chantry face nothing more and my inquisitor will deliver her and her organiastion final blow by any mean.  

Good luck.

Divine is only face she have no real power as i said she was there only to just look pretty and asunder proved that.You can rule by fear even more effective than by love pretty much History is full of tyrants that were above law and had immunity.About loghain i can tell only that i always saw him as incompetent villain who made stupid decisions and as far i was more impressed by archdemon.  

2.Hah i want to see everyone throwing their country in crisis because chantry have desire to declare
exalted marche as far i see chantry a bunch of incompetent fools that can't do anything correctly and i will play that my inquisition do. 

3.Well only truth here.

4.It won't be hard they are unstable from beginning they are hypocrites that try play moral kicking more dogs revya on demon path they proved once than more time they are incompetent and now they are in turmoil adding that we will have option to show world chantry shady matters it shouldn't be so hard. 

I think Justinia is a sensible person and wields the power to shape the chantry into something new and effective.  I look forward to the role she will play in DAI.  If I'm allowed a say on this in my game, I will keep her in power and just ditch her lieutenants.

@ TheKomandorShepherd - can you clarify a word so I can understand you?  Most of your post can be worked out but I don't know what you mean by the word "revya."  You're doing so much better getting your point across now that you are simplifying it.  Whether I or anyone else agrees with you, it's nice that you're more able to speak your mind.

Yeah justinia is very sensible person she just released time bombs that cause many problems even when they are locked up and hardly freeing them is effective especially if she ingored kirkwall.

Revya it is name more specifically protagonist of that game

[Sir JK]

Beatrix III was certainly more figurehead than leader towards the end of her life. Partly or fully due to the fact that she was really quite old (sitting on the sacred throne for 50 years does that to you) at the end. Asunder discusses this in that the nobility of Orlais are actually quite stunned that Justinia actually seizes the moment at the ball in the beginning. Noone expected her to since a Divine hadn't for a very long time. Everyone expected Justinia to be a figurehead.

And yes, you can rule by fear. As Machiavelli so famously declares in his book. Mind that the second part of that statement is that anyone that does should take care or else find themselves hated but not feared.
History is full of successful tyrants, yes. It's filled with considerably more failed tyrants . The ones that thought fear would protect them. In the end, I'd say that all it proves is that power is a fickle thing to hold. It can be useful, but misunderstand the situation and the people under you and you'll find that you have none.

Meredith tried to rule by fear. Loghain too. As did Perrin Threnhold and the Baroness in Blackmarsh. The Orlesian king Meghren of Ferelden too, and his cousin emperor Florian of Orlais.

Meredith faced not one but two rebellions because of it, the latter claimed her life. Loghain managed to rally half the kingdom against him despite a blight. Perrin Threnhold got executed by the Kirkwall chantry because he tried to force the templars to obey him. The Baroness got a peasant uprising on her hands despite that they knew she was a bloodmage and a dragonslayer. Meghren managed with almost artistic flair, thanks to his heavyhanded methods, turn an almost defeated noble rebellion into a full blown rebellion that in the end cost him his life. And emperor Florian "the mad" got killed by his niece, Empress Celene as she took his throne.

All in all... rule by fear seems to be just as unreliable in Thedas as rule by love is. Tyrants seems to, at least in the dragon age, to learn the meaning of the phrase "Sic semper Tyrannis".

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sir JK wrote...

Beatrix III was certainly more figurehead than leader towards the end of her life. Partly or fully due to the fact that she was really quite old (sitting on the sacred throne for 50 years does that to you) at the end. Asunder discusses this in that the nobility of Orlais are actually quite stunned that Justinia actually seizes the moment at the ball in the beginning. Noone expected her to since a Divine hadn't for a very long time. Everyone expected Justinia to be a figurehead.

And yes, you can rule by fear. As Machiavelli so famously declares in his book. Mind that the second part of that statement is that anyone that does should take care or else find themselves hated but not feared.
History is full of successful tyrants, yes. It's filled with considerably more failed tyrants . The ones that thought fear would protect them. In the end, I'd say that all it proves is that power is a fickle thing to hold. It can be useful, but misunderstand the situation and the people under you and you'll find that you have none.

Meredith tried to rule by fear. Loghain too. As did Perrin Threnhold and the Baroness in Blackmarsh. The Orlesian king Meghren of Ferelden too, and his cousin emperor Florian of Orlais.

Meredith faced not one but two rebellions because of it, the latter claimed her life. Loghain managed to rally half the kingdom against him despite a blight. Perrin Threnhold got executed by the Kirkwall chantry because he tried to force the templars to obey him. The Baroness got a peasant uprising on her hands despite that they knew she was a bloodmage and a dragonslayer. Meghren managed with almost artistic flair, thanks to his heavyhanded methods, turn an almost defeated noble rebellion into a full blown rebellion that in the end cost him his life. And emperor Florian "the mad" got killed by his niece, Empress Celene as she took his throne.

All in all... rule by fear seems to be just as unreliable in Thedas as rule by love is. Tyrants seems to, at least in the dragon age, to learn the meaning of the phrase "Sic semper Tyrannis".

Well if you are dumb ruling with fear won't end well if you do that correctly you will be successful you provided us well not very smart leaders that ruled by fear loghain was incompetent and meredith well she was incompetent and insane (as well her peoples) and what can i say about baroness only that she was stupid evil that even connor was more successful.Hell meredith and loghain would win if not warden (well loghain would ended death with ferelden) and meredith was somehow successful to certain point. 

Orlais is ruled by fear well it is bulit on that and tevinter as well (once they ruled world using fear mostly successfully).And what i can say that was most powerful empires...

About divine ultimately she was nothimg more than figurehead don't mention that she have shady past and well personal assassin if that will come to light she is done and won't be even figurehead.
 

[Sir JK]

Indeed, Kommandor. It's sort of the point I've been trying to make. There's considerably more to the puzzle of ruling a nation than simply being able to rule by fear. As you point out, you have to be clever about it.

I'll also point out that while Tevinter's rule by fear might seem succesful, the very same practises cost them 5/6ths of their empire later down the line. Andraste did not rally her people because Tevinter was weak, but because it was hated. Ferelden did not throw out Orlais because they didn't fear them, they absolutely did, but because they hated them so much more.

Regardless, none of this helps us understand just how much power Justinia still has. Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's more than either of us suspects. Time will tell.

Until then I think you and I will have to agree to disagree.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sir JK wrote...

Indeed, Kommandor. It's sort of the point I've been trying to make. There's considerably more to the puzzle of ruling a nation than simply being able to rule by fear. As you point out, you have to be clever about it.

I'll also point out that while Tevinter's rule by fear might seem succesful, the very same practises cost them 5/6ths of their empire later down the line. Andraste did not rally her people because Tevinter was weak, but because it was hated. Ferelden did not throw out Orlais because they didn't fear them, they absolutely did, but because they hated them so much more.

Regardless, none of this helps us understand just how much power Justinia still has. Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's more than either of us suspects. Time will tell.

Until then I think you and I will have to agree to disagree.

Well did i ever argue about being smart leader to have actual power?

Well tevinter wasn't in good condition pretty much like chantry now only stronger because they ruled then.Well blights and system that fell after fade incident were huge punch toward empire then rebellion so peoples saw hope.Well i didn't read this book so i can't say much about ferelden rebellion but i guess that leader on opposite wasn't very competent right?

Pretty much everything depends on devs they might do that in realistic way or just give her some power somehow struggle in that conflict that same with mages in realistic way there is no way they could won but they might do that same thing. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 01 janvier 2014 - 03:36 .

[Sir JK]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Well i didn't read this book so i can't say much about ferelden rebellion but i guess that leader on opposite wasn't very competent right?

Meghren was the kind of self-absorbed ruler that thought that since he was king he would win and that it was enough simply to hit people until they gave up. The only real difference between him and King Cailan was that people actually liked Cailan. Nobody liked Meghren.

His mage advisor however, Severan, was actually a quite good statesman. For the most part Meghren gave him leave to manage the rebellion as he pleased and he did a decent job of it. Mainly by allying with parts of the fereldan nobility and frequent use of assassins to target likeable leaders. He rewarded nobles that cooperated, killed or drove off the ones that didn't and kept up the dignity of court.
Eventually, until Meghren started to lose confidence in him Severan was the true power behind the throne. Only really competing with Grand Cleric Bronach for influence.

However, following Loghain's successes Meghren lost confidence in Severan and limited the freedom he had to wield the power Particularily he demanded that Severan use harsher means.
In the end, he was murdered by the very assassin he had sent to kill Maric. Shortly after that Meghren alienated Grand Cleric Bronach and left without any allies, the only thing that protected him was emperor Florian. Then the battle of River Dane happened. Two years later, Meghren died at Maric's hand.

Severan was skilled and intelligent. But he could not stand up to the trio that was Maric, Loghain and Rowan. His power was also entirely dependant on whether he could please Meghren or not. But wihtou Meghren he'd never have any power at all.
The irony is that Maric, like his sons, wasn't a terribly good leader. But, again like his sons, he was very likeable. Unlike Loghain, who lacked charisma (but made up for it with martial skill). Rowan was the one holding the entire trio together and the true genius behind how Maric used his charisma.
They also had the experience and authority of Arl Guerrrin (Rowan's, Eamon's and Teagan's father) that helped out initially, until he was killed in battle.

That's my analysis of it anyways. No one side was clearly stronger than the other. The rebellion had more skilled leaders (but only marginally), but the perpetually lacked resources and influence. They also lost more battles than they won, but the ones they won were far more important.

Pretty much everything depends on devs they might do that in realistic way or just give her some power somehow struggle in that conflict that same with mages in realistic way there is no way they could won but they might do that same thing. 

Yeah. It all depends on how things are presented in the next game. I'm looking forward to that

[Rinshikai10]

Magdalena11 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
1.Well as i said power that you can use to please others isn't power or is only on pure technical (illusion) level but if you actually have power (political) and you can maintain it then you are more free than for example your minion who have to listen to you.In orlais empress may do what she wants as long she manages suppress uprising and avoid being killed .

All power stems from your ability to make others believe you can help them. In this Justinia is no different from Celene, Alistair, the First Warden or Meredith. Maintaining it is all about reinforcing this idea.

You've correctly identified that this is Justinia's failing when it comes to mages and templars, but mind that Celene has a noble rebellion (and possibly an elven one as well) on her hands for the exact same reason, in the Anderfels the wardens are considering to seize power and in Ferelden Loghain couldn't control the bannorn of Ferelden because noone trusted he'd make their lives better.

Power is all about making people believe in you. If you can't... you lose it. In a heartbeat.

Which is why it's a fulltime job keeping it.

2.And i still fail to see what priest can do outside of talk about peace and maker they don't hold any power not to mention that they can't fight and as i said you can only say how many supports divine and her views especially that grand cleric in ferelden outright hate mages when she is to dumb to use mages in ostagar (well she was probably grand cleric i can't remember but she was in charge)

Priests can talk about war too, you know . It's a priest that declares Exalted Marches for instance... -the- priest we're talking about in fact.
More seriously... Priests can have power the same way anyone else can. It's all about a mix of inspiration, fear and trust. Being able to fight yourself isn't important as long as you have people willing to do it for you.

3.Chantry collapses she is desperate enough to seek her enemies (or at least peoples who she thought are her enemies) to help her pretty much asunder proves who had real power in chantry divine is incompetent and was defeated by old ugly guy (lambert rocks:devil:) not to mention that she kicked both sides so both hate her now not to mention her stupidity in kirkwall.

Perhaps.

She is chantry face nothing more and my inquisitor will deliver her and her organiastion final blow by any mean.  

Good luck.

Divine is only face she have no real power as i said she was there only to just look pretty and asunder proved that.You can rule by fear even more effective than by love pretty much History is full of tyrants that were above law and had immunity.About loghain i can tell only that i always saw him as incompetent villain who made stupid decisions and as far i was more impressed by archdemon.  

2.Hah i want to see everyone throwing their country in crisis because chantry have desire to declare
exalted marche as far i see chantry a bunch of incompetent fools that can't do anything correctly and i will play that my inquisition do. 

3.Well only truth here.

4.It won't be hard they are unstable from beginning they are hypocrites that try play moral kicking more dogs revya on demon path they proved once than more time they are incompetent and now they are in turmoil adding that we will have option to show world chantry shady matters it shouldn't be so hard. 

I think Justinia is a sensible person and wields the power to shape the chantry into something new and effective.  I look forward to the role she will play in DAI.  If I'm allowed a say on this in my game, I will keep her in power and just ditch her lieutenants.

@ TheKomandorShepherd - can you clarify a word so I can understand you?  Most of your post can be worked out but I don't know what you mean by the word "revya."  You're doing so much better getting your point across now that you are simplifying it.  Whether I or anyone else agrees with you, it's nice that you're more able to speak your mind.

If the events of Kirkwall didn't happen I may have agreed with you. However, I don't believe that being sensible, makes you competent.

While Justinia may want change, she does not have a unified front to work from.

The Chantry is divided not only on her accession, but also her views.

Due to her trying to appease both groups, she also alienates them only adding fuel to the fire.

Finally, with the research she allows, we learn that not only does it not work the way she hoped. It also caused the death of nearly one thousand civilians, because she did not involve any loyal Templars as safe guards.

While I don't believe that the Chantry will be fully removed, I do believe that we will see something similar to Ecclesia from the Kingdom Under Fire series.

http://kingdomunderf...m/wiki/Ecclesia

[Angrywolves]

Ruling by fear always backfires.

I suppose if Lambert could become the Divine that is how he would rule the chantry.

The chantry needs reform.Verses such as those about Shartan and the elves that were removed from the chant of light need to be restored.

[Rinshikai10]

Didn't Lambert write in his letter to Justinia that he planed to put a more traditionalist Divine in her place, in order to control the Chantry?

I'm starting to think that Justinia may not be in control of Chantry HQ anymore. She could be on the run if the Capital city is in flames.

[Angrywolves]

So we get to oppose Lambert I hope.:happy:

I was hoping for that because I do want to kill him.

Modifié par Angrywolves, 04 janvier 2014 - 08:40 .

[Rinshikai10]

He may well be dead by the end of Asunder.

[Hellion Rex]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

He may well be dead by the end of Asunder.

Lambert is MIA. I think that if he was truly dead, they would have outright said it, and not bothered listing him as merely MIA.

[Rinshikai10]

I believe WOT also says that he is possibly dead, due to being MIA. If he is alive, I bet he will have a vendetta against Justinia, and the Mages.

[Angrywolves]

Maybe he joined the red templars.I could see where that would make sense from his perspective.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well im wonder if lambert would be red templar when he is fanatic unlike other templars he is smart at least should be enough to not use red lyrium. 
I think as well that he isn't dead or at least hope he isn't if he was killed by cole he would be
quickly found and listed as dead so i guess he menaged survive event with cole and now he stays low or thats are just rumors or cole did something unplesant to him that removed him from public eyes. 

[Rinshikai10]

If Lambert is alive as a Red Templar it would be interesting to see him with his sanity. It would definitely separate him from Justinia's loyalists.

[dragonflight288]

I think Lambert has been possessed by Cole. He actively avoids his own men now because it would be a death sentence as he's now guilty of the same thing many mages are guilty of. Existing as something they fear simply by existing.

I'm sure he'll still be an antagonist, and if I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but my gut tells me that he's possessed.

[Rinshikai10]

Oh the irony!

If its true, I wonder who would be in control Lambert or Cole?

Also could it effect how they view Justinia and the Mages? Could it force Lambert to see things differently?

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 05 janvier 2014 - 04:34 .