1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinshikai10]

MisterJB wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...
4) Darkspawn emissary
 

Wait, what?

Rotward suggested that one.

[Magdalena11]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

So, so far we as players and fans have come up with a few ideas about what Justinia was before she became Divine.

1) Bard
2) Mage
3) Bloodmage
4) Darkspawn emissary
5) Priest
6) Possible hand of the previous Divine

Looking back to Dragon Age 2, does it seem like Justinia's decision to research the RoT comes around the time Sir Alrik's letter was sent to her?

I think maybe 6(?)  because she reminds people of Leliana so much.  She might have firsthand knowledge of how much of a weapon the RoT could become if the templars became corrupted.  Maybe she was looking into damage control from the moment she replaced Beatrix or was even "helping" her make decisions.  

[Banxey]

 

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@Magdalena11

I won't deny that my theory may not by true. However, throughout Asunder Justinia seems to miscalculate her decisions on how to deal with the situation.

1) Wynne may have been able to stop that last two votes for separating the Circle from the Chantry, and that may why Justinia is using her. However, while Wynne may be easier to manipulate compared to Fiona, we see that Wynne has also lost a considerable amount of respect among the Circles.

2) Just my opinion, but I believe that Justinia flat out ignores Fiona because she would be more difficult to get on her side. However, because she does not talk to Fiona as far as we know, that gaves the Grand Enchanter a full year to rally support.

3) With Lambert she doesn't seem to realize just how far he will go against her if she does something he doesn't agree with.

4) The ROT research seems like a good way to get the Mages to listen to her, but is it really worth the cost? To save one Tranquil Mages research nearly one thousand innocents were sacrificed. And the results were not what Justinia wanted. Even though Pharamond did as the Divine order, he basically is punished as a way to appease Lambert. 

Plus the way Lamberts loyalist acted it would appear that the many Templars don't want things to change, regardless of evidence that the Rite is flawed. Simply because it give them a false sense of security. 

As Banxey points out, Justinia takes a lot of chances on faith. While the reward for success it great, the risks are even higher. 

I think people are kind of hard on her. When I said that she took a lot of chances based on faith, I didn't mean she was foolish. I think when she takes a chance, she knows the outcome if it fails. But she is dealing with a Chantry who refuses to change it's views, and she doesn't always have much of a choice.

I also believe that she knows something is about to happen, and also knows she is running out of time. Beatrix III knew too (I assume) as she gave Cassandra that book at the end of DotS. I think Beatrix (or someone who controlled Beatrix) chose Justinia because she knew she was someone who would go against the grain. You have to remember that events are set in motion that are outside of Justinia's control, and that even if she could put her foot down and stop them, doing so would jeapodize the power she has. 

Finally, I don't think she lost control of the Templars, I think she sacrificed her control of the Templars to give freedom to the mages. Lambert would have executed them all and she knows they'll be needed. Wynne did have the support to overthrow Fiona, but Adrian killed Pharamond with the intention to throw them into a war. At the end of Asunder Adrian even acknowleges that she wanted Rhys to influence Wynne because she knew Wynne would convince them not to support Fiona.

Rinshikai10 wrote...

So, so far we as players and fans have come up with a few ideas about what Justinia was before she became Divine.

1) Bard
2) Mage
3) Bloodmage
4) Darkspawn emissary
5) Priest 
6) Possible hand of the previous Divine 

Looking back to Dragon Age 2, does it seem like Justinia's decision to research the RoT comes around the time Sir Alrik's letter was sent to her?

I think she was a Bard, or a criminal of some variety. Part of the reason the old-school Chantry supporters are against her is because of her "worldly background" and she "demonstrated forgiveness for sinners." (quotes are from the Codex). I think she also may be tied to the Dowager in some way (I have no evidence to support this in any way). 

[Rinshikai10]

@Banxey2

Correct me if I'm reading you post wrong, but your telling me that Justinia knew her actions after the collage meeting would result in war, but she did it anyway.

She sacrificed her control over the Templars and Seekers, knowing that it would cost her nearly everything, yet she do so anyway.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Divine is mooron whatever you think about mage and templars she did dumbest thing she could she helped side that lost...

For what purpose she send leliana to help mages when mages were captured
by lambert not only she supported side that don't like her but also lost side supported her (well as long divine let do templars what they want) so well she created world war and freed walking bombs and she gained nothing she is an idiot... she created this war well she was last nail and now she is fishing for peoples who will let her stop war cleary she don't know what she is doing.  

[Banxey]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@Banxey2

Correct me if I'm reading you post wrong, but your telling me that Justinia knew her actions after the collage meeting would result in war, but she did it anyway.

She sacrificed her control over the Templars and Seekers, knowing that it would cost her nearly everything, yet she do so anyway.

Yes, it's the only thing that makes sense to me. I mean here she must be aware that Lambert is unstable or at least, she already knows that he is antagonistic toward her (after their initial meeting with Wynne, etc). Yet she lets Leliana, someone she is very obviously associated with, break into the White Spire while she summons Lambert to the Grand Cathedral. Unless she is very, very stupid she must have anticipated that one of Lambert's possible reactions to so obviously being lied to would be to break away from the Chantry (he had in the past broken away from the Imperial Chantry, so it's not out of character for him).

Now when she loses control of the Templars and Seekers, you have to remember that she could be doing so with the knowlege (or perhaps faith) that some of them would return to the Chantry rather than go along with Lambert, who comes across as a bit of a tyrant and not entirely unlike Meredith (with whom very few Templars sided with). Lambert himself feels that he will be able to march right up to Andoral's Reach, take out the mages and return to Val Royeaux and see a new Divine (or force the Chantry to appoint a puppet Divine) but he does so while underestimating the mages. I don't think Justinia understimates them, and if she has been expecting something like this to happen, she would be planning for it.

I don't know what her next move will be, but the Seekers and Templars loyal to Lambert's ideals wont be able to do anything until they deal with the mages, so she still has time. But you could also argue that if she somehow knows about the coming veil tear, she might be willing to sacrifice herself to free the mages, Templars aren't much of a match for demons, after all. 

[Rinshikai10]

Banxey2

I think your overestimating Justinia. We know that some Templars and Seekers are still loyal to her. (World of Thedas time line) However, a skeleton crew won't do much good in a open war. Which is probably why she is looking for the Warden and Hawke.

My personal view is she underestimated just how far Lambert would go, believing that he would obey her.

While doing the same thing with Wynne and Fiona. Underestimating how much influence Wynne lost, and how much Fiona had gained.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Banxey2

I think your overestimating Justinia. We know that some Templars and Seekers are still loyal to her. (World of Thedas time line) However, a skeleton crew won't do much good in a open war. Which is probably why she is looking for the Warden and Hawke.

My personal view is she underestimated just how far Lambert would go, believing that he would obey her.

While doing the same thing with Wynne and Fiona. Underestimating how much influence Wynne lost, and how much Fiona had gained.

My question because it seems that you have WoT is there any information that divine seeks the warden or someting like that because i hear that often but all we know that cassandra is looking hawke.

[Rinshikai10]

I don't see it on the WOT timeline. The last entry talks about Cassandra speaking to Varric about Hawke. It may just be an assumption we fans created. When Cassandra says that the Warden is gone, many are going to get the impression that they went looking for them and failed to find them.

[Magdalena11]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Banxey2

I think your overestimating Justinia. We know that some Templars and Seekers are still loyal to her. (World of Thedas time line) However, a skeleton crew won't do much good in a open war. Which is probably why she is looking for the Warden and Hawke.

My personal view is she underestimated just how far Lambert would go, believing that he would obey her.

While doing the same thing with Wynne and Fiona. Underestimating how much influence Wynne lost, and how much Fiona had gained.

My question because it seems that you have WoT is there any information that divine seeks the warden or someting like that because i hear that often but all we know that cassandra is looking hawke.

The line is between Cassandra and Leliana at the end of DA2.  Leliana asks something "And...." and Cassandra replies "Gone, just like the Warden."  Cassandra would only know the Warden wasn't where he or she was supposed to be if she had checked already.  There's no confirmation that the Divine is the one who wants the info, either.  It could be tied to something between Leliana and Cassandra.  It seems, though, that if the right hand knows what the left is doing the person controlling the hands would know as well.

[Angrywolves]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Banxey2

I think your overestimating Justinia. We know that some Templars and Seekers are still loyal to her. (World of Thedas time line) However, a skeleton crew won't do much good in a open war. Which is probably why she is looking for the Warden and Hawke.

My personal view is she underestimated just how far Lambert would go, believing that he would obey her.

While doing the same thing with Wynne and Fiona. Underestimating how much influence Wynne lost, and how much Fiona had gained.

I think she has more troops than just a skeleton crew but we'll see.

[Banxey]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Banxey2

I think your overestimating Justinia. We know that some Templars and Seekers are still loyal to her. (World of Thedas time line) However, a skeleton crew won't do much good in a open war. Which is probably why she is looking for the Warden and Hawke.

My personal view is she underestimated just how far Lambert would go, believing that he would obey her.

While doing the same thing with Wynne and Fiona. Underestimating how much influence Wynne lost, and how much Fiona had gained.

I don't agree that Fiona had enough support. She certainly had more support than previously, but the indication in the book was that had Pharamond not been killed, and Lambert not freaked out, Wynne would have overcome Fiona's objections. Wynne was the head of the Aequitarians, and in the end of the book Rhys takes up this position. At Andoral's Reach after everyone has voted over what they think they should do, it becomes clear that Rhys' vote on behalf of the Aequtarians will be the deciding vote. Had Wynne been able to make that vote at the White Spire, she still would have had the majority.

As for Justinia only having a skeleton force of Templars and Seekers, we don't really know the numbers we're talking about here. Even if she had a smaller force than Lambert, his idealists would still be fighting a war on two fronts against both Justinia's loyal and the mages. They would also have to deal with a lot of suspicion amongst their ranks, because Templars and Seekers would be looking for ways to desert him. The Divine isn't just a leader of an armed force like Lambert, she's a spiritual leader. And amongst other problems those men/women will have when deciding to do what Lambert tells them, is deciding whether their loyalties should lay at the feet of a man or a woman who is supposed to be a representitive of their God. So I don't necessarily see Lambert holding command of the bulk of those forces indefinitely if his extremism is anything to go by.

I've also said in other threads that I think the reason Cassandra and Leliana were looking for Hawke/The Warden is because Justinia knows what is about to happen and they know they'll need someone to build a force to fight it. But whoever that is has to be someone who has no ties to any one organisation, and who also has a certain amount of respect and neutrality. I don't think they're looking for Hawke/The Warden to fight the Chantry's war, but rather the war that will inevitibly overshadow all of these comparitively petty squabbles.

That's just my rather long take on it anyway. 

[Angrywolves]

I still don't have a good feel for the Divine.What it means to be a Divine.
if the people feel the Divine has the maker's blessings.Stuff like that.That would instill loyaty to her that Lambert can't have.
But we'll see.

[Sir JK]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

We know that some Templars and Seekers are
still loyal to her. (World of Thedas time line) However, a skeleton
crew won't do much good in a open war.

War? What war? Justinia isn't fighting a war. Lambert is, but not against her. The mages are, but not againat her.

She may have lost both templar and mages, but as far as I can tell neither is at war with her. One another, sure. But not against her and the Chantry.

Banxey2 wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Banxey2

I don't agree that Fiona had enough support. She certainly had more support than previously, but the indication in the book was that had Pharamond not been killed, and Lambert not freaked out, Wynne would have overcome Fiona's objections. Wynne was the head of the Aequitarians, and in the end of the book Rhys takes up this position. At Andoral's Reach after everyone has voted over what they think they should do, it becomes clear that Rhys' vote on behalf of the Aequtarians will be the deciding vote. Had Wynne been able to make that vote at the White Spire, she still would have had the majority.

Indeed. Had Pharamond not been killed and Lambert not sought to arrest Rhys, Wynne would have had an overwhelming majority against seceding. Only the libertarians voted for it at the end and while the war would not have started (which is the motvation for the loyalists, lucrosians and isolationisst) the cure for tranquility might just give enough hope to swing a vote.
Fiona would have been thoroughly discredited as the grand enchanter... it's not entirely feasible she'd lose the position to Wynne. Which in essence would mean the college would have been controlled by someone loyal to Justinia.

Adrian threw a spanner into those gears though. Massively. Confirming Lambert's fears. Playing on Wynne's motherhood and Fiona's protectiveness. Got to give credit to Adrian, she paid attention to what was going on very carefully and manipulated everyone masterfully. I almost want to meet her ingame now.

As for Justinia only having a skeleton force of Templars and Seekers, we don't really know the numbers we're talking about here. Even if she had a smaller force than Lambert, his idealists would still be fighting a war on two fronts against both Justinia's loyal and the mages. They would also have to deal with a lot of suspicion amongst their ranks, because Templars and Seekers would be looking for ways to desert him. The Divine isn't just a leader of an armed force like Lambert, she's a spiritual leader. And amongst other problems those men/women will have when deciding to do what Lambert tells them, is deciding whether their loyalties should lay at the feet of a man or a woman who is supposed to be a representitive of their God. So I don't necessarily see Lambert holding command of the bulk of those forces indefinitely if his extremism is anything to go by.

Two front war? Where are you two getting this from? Lambert seceded from the Chantry, yes. But nowhere is it mentioned that Justinia tries to resist by force. Moreover, Lambert refusing to obey a misguided divine is one thing. Him declaring war on the mother Chantry is quite another. I think he's smarter than that. And his successor too.
I mean, all he has to do is defeat the mages, then he ought to have enough clout to force the divine out of the political game and return to the folds as the unquestioned authority on mages.

Other than that, I think your analysis is fairly correct. Lambert (or whomever) will have a lot of internal policing to do.

Modifié par Sir JK, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:14 .

[Rotward]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

So, so far we as players and fans have come up with a few ideas about what Justinia was before she became Divine.

1) Bard
2) Mage
3) Bloodmage
4) Darkspawn emissary
5) Priest
6) Possible hand of the previous Divine

Looking back to Dragon Age 2, does it seem like Justinia's decision to research the RoT comes around the time Sir Alrik's letter was sent to her?

Maybe she was a bard who used bloodmagic to make her music sound better, who went on to become a priest and hand of the previous divine. All whilst secretly furthering the darkspawn cheese agenda. 

[Rinshikai10]

@Banxay2

You have to remember that the possible vote at the White Spire would not have been decided by the leaders of the fraternities. It would have been decided the First Enchanters, who appear to be mainly Aequitarians anyway.

Even before Lambert enters, we as the reader see that even though Wynne makes promises for change. Some FE are already starting to side with Fiona. (Likely because she shows the situation for what it really is.)

Even if Lambert didn't act and Pharamond wasn't killed, it sounds like the First Enchanters are starting to favor Fiona over Wynne. Had Pharamond gone through RoT once again, and had been shown to the Mages at the gathering. It would have only pushed the Mages further from supporting the Divine. After she allowed it to happen in order to appease Lambert.

The only reason that the Fraternities leaders voted was because many FE were unaccounted for.

While I see that many people don't like Fiona, like it or not she is the representative of the Circle of Magi to the Divine, voted in by the FE's. I really doubt that Wynne would ever become GE, after she successfully stopped the second peaceful attempt at separation. She lost respect with many Circle Mages who call her a traitor.

Last I checked they only one that said Wynne would have successfully gotten the Mages to vote on staying with the Chantry was Adrian. Looking back at the gathering I see Wynne starting to panic when she realizes that she is losing the vote to Fiona, even with all the things she has done to gain support.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 15 janvier 2014 - 06:14 .

[Banxey]

Sir JK wrote...
Two front war? Where are you two getting this from? Lambert seceded from the Chantry, yes. But nowhere is it mentioned that Justinia tries to resist by force. Moreover, Lambert refusing to obey a misguided divine is one thing. Him declaring war on the mother Chantry is quite another. I think he's smarter than that. And his successor too.
I mean, all he has to do is defeat the mages, then he ought to have enough clout to force the divine out of the political game and return to the folds as the unquestioned authority on mages.

Other than that, I think your analysis is fairly correct. Lambert (or whomever) will have a lot of internal policing to do.

You're right. I had never thought about it in those terms before, I just read Lambert as being so hostile that if he didn't get his way he might try to do so by force. But there is nothing to say that they would fight eachother. He just assumes that the Chantry will be weak without him/them and would eventually bow to his will. 

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@Banxay2 

You have to remember that the possible vote at the White Spire would not have been decided by the leaders of the fraternities. It would have been decided the First Enchanters, who appear to be mainly Aequitarians anyway.

Even before Lambert enters, we as the reader see that even though Wynne makes promises for change. Some FE are already starting to side with Fiona. (Likely because she shows the situation for what it really is.) 

Even if Lambert didn't act and Pharamond wasn't killed, it sounds like the First Enchanters are starting to favor Fiona over Wynne. Had Pharamond gone through RoT once again, and had been shown to the Mages at the gathering. It would have only pushed the Mages further from supporting the Divine. After she allowed it to happen in order to appease Lambert. 

The only reason that the Fraternities leaders voted was because many FE were unaccounted for. 

While I see that many people don't like Fiona, like it or not she is the representative of the Circle of Magi to the Divine, voted in by the FE's. I really doubt that Wynne would ever become GE, after she successfully stopped the second peaceful attempt at separation. She lost respect with many Circle Mages who call her a traitor. 

Last I checked they only one that said Wynne would have successfully gotten the Mages to vote on staying with the Chantry was Adrian. Looking back at the gathering I see Wynne starting to panic when she realizes that she is losing the vote to Fiona, even with all the things she has done to gain support.

I reread that part of the book again, and I see your point. But while Wynne had lost support, I still don't see Fiona having overwhelming support. The text said they were unsure how to proceed, but were on the edge. Then Rhys spoke and we don't know if what he said had any effect because they ran out of time. It was not a perfect plan, and perhaps it was a long shot. But I think Justinia was offering them a way out, one they refused to take. The fallout from that would have been fairly negligible for Justinia had she not had Leliana free the mages afterwards.

Also, I don't dislike Fiona, but she has some fairly serious personal problems that make her useless as a contact for someone in Justinia's position who is trying to covertly change things. Even had the Divine tried to get her on side, it's highly doubtful she would have done anything other than try to manipulate that into a benefit for her own cause.

[Rinshikai10]

@Sir JK

Sorry if I made you think that I meant Lambert or Fiona fighting the Divine/Chantry. That was not what I was trying to say. The point I try to make about Justinia having less military power then the others is, if war comes to her, she will be fighting a losing battle.

@Banxey2

I agree that Fiona won't have overwhelming support. However, I don't really believe that Justinia was offering them a way out. IMO it feels more like shes trying to maintain Chantry control by offering the bare minimum change. After what happened in Kirkwall, I don't think it was enough, giving a too little too late kind of feel to the situation.

[Rinshikai10]

Slow week, anyone think that Dev diaries will reveal more about the Chantry or the Divine?

[Seishoujyo]

Divine Justinia ? I just hope I will be able to bang her just like Anora, it should be something to put a divine in your bed. David Gaider don't disappoint me I have faith in you.

[Rinshikai10]

Seishoujyo wrote...

Divine Justinia ? I just hope I will be able to bang her just like Anora, it should be something to put a divine in your bed. David Gaider don't disappoint me I have faith in you.

Yep, I don't really think there would be a need to learn about the other Divines. Except maybe Beatrix III.

So you want to romance Justinia?

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 27 janvier 2014 - 12:51 .

[Seishoujyo]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Seishoujyo wrote...

Divine Justinia ? I just hope I will be able to bang her just like Anora, it should be something to put a divine in your bed. David Gaider don't disappoint me I have faith in you.

Yep, I don't really think there would be a need to learn about the other Divines. Except maybe Beatrix III.

So you want to romance Justinia?

No not romance but something similar to Anora and rule Orlais with her. BTW how old is she ?

Edit: ok my bad I was thinking about Celene not Justinia.

Modifié par Seishoujyo, 27 janvier 2014 - 01:31 .

[Rinshikai10]

Its alright, now I wonder if Celene would be on good terms with Justinia or not.

At this point I don't know if the University she established would go against the Divines personal views. Justinia seems deeply religious, yet she also has some progressive views.

It makes me wonder how she would see a system of education that differs from the Chantry.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 27 janvier 2014 - 12:44 .

[Rinshikai10]

This theory going around of Justinia being the Inquisition founder seems a little far fetched to me. I can understand that her fans what to interact with her, but wasn't it said at some point that the Inquisition will be working in opposition of the Chantry?

I thought I saw a video of one of the Dev's talking about this right after the first trailer came out.

Though I could be wrong.

Any thoughts?

[Heimdall]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

This theory going around of Justinia being the Inquisition founder seems a little far fetched to me. I can understand that her fans what to interact with her, but wasn't it said at some point that the Inquisition will be working in opposition of the Chantry?

I thought I saw a video of one of the Dev's talking about this right after the first trailer came out.

Though I could be wrong.

Any thoughts?

Not that it would be in opposition, just that the Inquisition won't be forced to side with the chantry.  So Justinia could help found it, but the Inquisitor, the one building it up, might have other plans.