1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I know I hope it's not true. But it'd be a perfect set up... so I'm not even in the least reassured.

 

Still... out of a narrative perspective... the only thing more interesting than a strong Chantry is a broken Chantry. If the Chantry's leadership is completely destroyed, that's a perfect way to include it in detail... heavily involving the PC in it's inner workings and rebuilding it (and allowing the player to influence what it'll become).

I don't think the player will be able to have too much influence... maybe being able to declare how much influence it'll have over the mages at the end in one of two not-completely-divergent directions.

[LobselVith8]

I know I hope it's not true. But it'd be a perfect set up... so I'm not even in the least reassured.

 

Still... out of a narrative perspective... the only thing more interesting than a strong Chantry is a broken Chantry. If the Chantry's leadership is completely destroyed, that's a perfect way to include it in detail... heavily involving the PC in it's inner workings and rebuilding it (and allowing the player to influence what it'll become).

 

What about a heathen Inquisitor? How would you see that coming into play in rebuilding the Chantry?

[Banxey]

Wouldn't that be an issue for a protagonist who opposes the Chantry of Andraste? If Cassandra is a mandatory companion, then I think it would make more sense if she was neutral, rather than working for Divine Justina V. I certainly don't think it would make sense to accept the aid of someone who you think would stab you in the back, which is plausible for people from certain backgrounds who have had antagonistic and violent relations with the Andrastian Chantry (like the Dalish, to cite one example).

 

The character kit implies that Cassandra is loyal to the Divine. This doesn't necessarily mean that she is loyal to the Chantry. There was an article somewhere about Cassandra becoming disillusioned with the Chantry. And it seems a lot of confusion (and rage) seems to stem from people assuming that the Chantry, Seekers, and Templars are some kind of hive mind. Personally, I don't think her reverence for the Divine will have any more bearing on how Cassandra interacts with people than her belief in the Maker.  

[Sir JK]

I don't think the player will be able to have too much influence... maybe being able to declare how much influence it'll have over the mages at the end in one of two not-completely-divergent directions.

 

Indeed. You wouldn't get to choose whether the wall is painted red or blue, the wall will be green... but you might be allowed to decide which shade of green. Nothing radical, but influential.

 

What about a heathen Inquisitor? How would you see that coming into play in rebuilding the Chantry?

 

Yup. If the Chantry is broken into pieces I see even a heathen Inquisitor being involved (much like an andrastian orlesian inquisitor will be introduced to any dalish plot). All possible characters are going to be introduced to all major plots. No matter who we want them to be.

 

As for why? Politics.

 

However... I don't think it'll be that broken.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Never underestimate political desperation in helping to put aside ideological differences and form alliances.

[Mistic]

My two cents is that the Inquisition we'll be "opposed to the Chantry" the same as the Grey Wardens were opposed to the Tevinter Imperium.

 

The Grey Wardens were actually imperial soldiers that broke from the Imperium. Not because they wanted to destroy it, far from it (despite Andraste's campaign, the Grey Wardens didn't join her and didn't even accept Andrastianism until Emperor Drakon's involvement in the Second Blight), but because something extreme had to be done and the Imperium wasn't able to offer a solution.

 

During the Blight, the Grey Wardens built their own army, took control of several keeps (like the famous Weisshaupt) and saved the world. The Imperium may not have liked that at first, but in the end allowed the Wardens to keep their troops and fortresses and gave them the Right of Conscription.

 

Sounds familiar? Just take out "Tevinter", "Grey Wardens" and "Blight" and put "Chantry", "Inquisition" and "Veil Tears" instead.

[ladyofpayne]

I can't say I like her or not- sadly Asunder didnt't tell us about her much. One on the most important character is closed like chastity belt. But one thing is clear- she was wrong about mages. She forgot or didn't want to think about human nature use everything as weapon in this cas- magic. So Lambert was right.

[wcholcombe]

That's a narrow way to view it. She was being progressive and trying to fix the situation rather than waiting for it to collapse. It didn't work but that doesn't make her wrong for trying. Even Lambert says that the Templar/Circle system was broken and ineffective. Provably for different reasons, but still.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's a narrow way to view it. She was being progressive and trying to fix the situation rather than waiting for it to collapse. It didn't work but that doesn't make her wrong for trying. Even Lambert says that the Templar/Circle system was broken and ineffective. Provably for different reasons, but still.

 

Yes she wanted fix it by causing world war... situation was fixed when lambert defeated mages and imprison them then she stabbed lamber in the back causing world war... thanks divine for leting walking bombs roam free... i hope that i can reveal what divine did and destroy that idiot before her naiviety cause more trouble..

[ladyofpayne]

Yes, Lambert could stop this but she spoiled everything. All thigs became worse for mages and non mages. This isn't progressive- this is stupid. She forgot- mages are people too. And many of them will desire power.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes, Lambert could stop this but she spoiled everything. All thigs became worse for mages and non mages. This isn't progressive- this is stupid. She forgot- mages are people too. And many of them will desire power.

 

She is naive she was screwd by marjolaine in leliana song so she is one of that blinded idealists such peoples with power will screw things as she did... 

 

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

She is naive she was screwd by marjolene in leliana song so she is one of that blinded idealists such peoples with power will screw things as she did... 

Or Marjolaine(not Marjolene) is just a master manipulator. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Or Marjolaine(not Marjolene) is just a master manipulator. 

 

Thanks for correction edited

 

I didn't saw that leliana was screwd because she was gullible and divine because she was naive and even after she thought that she is "good"... game of course says that she is master manipulator but same says about leliana who i can lie with most pathetic lie evah when i sleep with zevran or morrigan...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Thanks for correction edited

 

I didn't saw that leliana was screwd because she was gullible and divine because she was naive and even after she thought that she is "good"... game of course says that she is master manipulator but same says about leliana who i can lie with most pathetic lie evah when i sleep with zevran or morrigan...

You are welcome.

 

I'm not saying that they couldn't be those things, but also we have to realize that Marjolaine was a master of deception, thus screwing many people, even strong-willed ones, out of information. And just because one is a master manipulator doesn't mean they can't be easily manipulated. Just look at the demons you can deal with only to betray later.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You are welcome.

 

I'm not saying that they couldn't be those things, but also we have to realize that Marjolaine was a master of deception, thus screwing many people, even strong-willed ones, out of information. And just because one is a master manipulator doesn't mean they can't be easily manipulated. Just look at the demons you can deal with only to betray later.

 

To be honest marjolaine was only piece of evidence why divine was naive her reaction toward marjolaine in leliana song , her views and stupid moves in asunder are whole.To be honest we never could screw more "smart" demons as far i renember you can lie sloth demon as hawke and sophia (we don't know what type of demon she was) and we have 2 desire demons 1 that summoned by willhelm we can trick second we can only intimidate.Still can't see leliana master manipulator who was tricked by "i didn't slept with her" despite she almost saw and definitely heard it reminds me MiB "you didn't saw it" "ok"  ... a little to gullible to be master manipulator

[Banxey]

Yes, Lambert could stop this but she spoiled everything. All thigs became worse for mages and non mages. This isn't progressive- this is stupid. She forgot- mages are people too. And many of them will desire power.

 

Lambert wasn't even able to do his own job, yet he took over someone else's. And it's very, very unlikely the other circles would have sat on their hands once they learnt their first enchanters and grand enchanter had been imprisoned (or worse).

[Hanako Ikezawa]

To be honest marjolaine was only piece of evidence why divine was naive her reaction toward marjolaine in leliana song , her views and stupid moves in asunder are whole.To be honest we never could screw more "smart" demons as far i renember you can lie sloth demon as hawke and sophia (we don't know what type of demon she was) and we have 2 desire demons 1 that summoned by willhelm we can trick second we can only intimidate.Still can't see leliana master manipulator who was tricked by "i didn't slept with her" despite she almost saw and definitely heard it reminds me MiB "you didn't saw it" "ok"  ... a little to gullible to be master manipulator

Desire Demons are second only to Pride Demons in the hierarchy, so I'd say they are very smart. Sophia's corpse I believe was possessed by a Hunger Demon since it said that it wanted to feed. Plus it looked like one in the flashback, assuming that one was the one since it was clearly the strongest.

 

Remember your Warden is a silent protagonist, so while the option seemed simple, they may have said the best lie in the history of the art.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lambert wasn't even able to do his own job, yet he took over someone else's. And it's very, very unlikely the other circles would have sat on their hands once they learnt their first enchanters and grand enchanter had been imprisoned (or worse).

 

Hmm he was just divine was obstacle on his way that he had to deal with it... yes they would because it would be obvious sign that templars crushed them on ease and they don't have change most peoples are loyalist or equitarians first would be burn by chantry and still support this and second are on loyalist and chantry side and would knew that they don't have chance.

 

 

Desire Demons are second only to Pride Demons in the hierarchy, so I'd say they are very smart. Sophia's corpse I believe was possessed by a Hunger Demon since it said that it wanted to feed. Plus it looked like one in the flashback, assuming that one was the one since it was clearly the strongest.

 

Remember your Warden is a silent protagonist, so while the option seemed simple, they may have said the best lie in the history of the art.

 

Yep i agree with desire demons being smart but i think that willhelm demon was rather desperate for help and we would turn on demon when we were helping it.

 

Well perhaps the warden is demon and mind-controled leliana because lie was rather cheap when it comes about writing and manipulative person (what require being rather smart) should be savvy enough to not fall to such cheap lie but if warden can turn such lie into credible he must be god of manipulation and lies or leliana is extremely gullible.

[Mistic]

Lambert wasn't even able to do his own job, yet he took over someone else's. And it's very, very unlikely the other circles would have sat on their hands once they learnt their first enchanters and grand enchanter had been imprisoned (or worse).

 

Agreed. Some people seem to forget that Lambert wasn't a Templar, but a Seeker. Remember that he took control of the Templars and Circle in Val Royeaux only to find out who the hell tried to assassinate the Divine. He saw conspiracies everywhere except where he was supposed to look at, because, guess what? He never found out who was behind the attempt and instead rebelled against the Divine.

 

So maybe Lambert is good at being a Templar, but don't forget he was actually a Seeker and failed hard at his supposed job.

 

Also, don't forget Kirkwall. The events in Asunder wouldn't have been so grave if Kirkwall hadn't happened, because:

a) Hawke supported the mages and showed that the Templars can be beaten.

Hawke supported the Templars and showed that they won't stop at anything to quell mages.

 

The result is the same: mages and templars getting increasingly paranoid and fearful, and thinking that the only solution is going to the extremes.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Agreed. Some people seem to forget that Lambert wasn't a Templar, but a Seeker. Remember that he took control of the Templars and Circle in Val Royeaux only to find out who the hell tried to assassinate the Divine. He saw conspiracies everywhere except where he was supposed to look at, because, guess what? He never found out who was behind the attempt and instead rebelled against the Divine.

 

So maybe Lambert is good at being a Templar, but don't forget he was actually a Seeker and failed hard at his supposed job.

 

Also, don't forget Kirkwall. The events in Asunder wouldn't have been so grave if Kirkwall hadn't happened, because:

a) Hawke supported the mages and showed that the Templars can be beaten.

Hawke supported the Templars and showed that they won't stop at anything to quell mages.

 

The result is the same: mages and templars getting increasingly paranoid and fearful, and thinking that the only solution is going to the extremes.

 

Do i have to mention that seekers are in practice little more than elite templars? it is like blood magic in tevinter technically it is forbidden in practice... im not very big law supporter lambert tried to protect world and he would succeed if not divine even if he broke his technical "duties" divine was a way to naive and in long-term destructive and lambert knew that... 

And paranoia for templar it is bless look at thrask who was trusting templar.If i would describe templar life it would be cullen starts naive and trusting mage betrays that trust and we have disaster then templar no longer lives in the illusion same was with lambert.

[Mistic]

Do i have to mention that seekers are in practice little more than elite templars? it is like blood magic in tevinter technically it is forbidden in practice... im not very big law supporter lambert tried to protect world and he would succeed if not divine even if he broke his technical "duties" divine was a way to naive and in long-term destructive and lambert knew that... 

And paranoia for templar it is bless look at thrask who was trusting templar.If i would describe templar life it would be cullen starts naive and trusting mage betrays that trust and we have disaster then templar no longer lives in the illusion same was with lambert.

 

Yes, Seekers are in fact elite templars but with an 'Internal affairs' role. Their duty is to watch both mages and templars, punish them if they need to, and answer only to the Divine. They're supposed to be the most loyal and the Divine's personal force.

 

Still, Lambert's jurisdiction over the Spire was only to look for the assassins. But he stepped outside his boundaries when he started investigating other matters without the Divine's approval. Of course, he could say that he was following his duties as a Seeker, but once he started opposing the Dine's orders (the investigation about Tranquility) he was proving to be unfit for his role. As much as I understand his reasons, he shouldn't have used his Seeker position to do it.

 

The mere existence of the reborn Inquisition in the upcoming game proves that all those who have used that argument up to this point are wrong, because the person who is actually going to save the world will be the Inquisitor. Of course, that's hindsight from our part, but "the end justifies the means" is a double-edged sword. If you don't achieve that "end", your means are wrong by default, something that well-intentioned extremists tend to forget.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes, Seekers are in fact elite templars but with an 'Internal affairs' role. Their duty is to watch both mages and templars, punish them if they need to, and answer only to the Divine. They're supposed to be the most loyal and the Divine's personal force.

 

Still, Lambert's jurisdiction over the Spire was only to look for the assassins. But he stepped outside his boundaries when he started investigating other matters without the Divine's approval. Of course, he could say that he was following his duties as a Seeker, but once he started opposing the Dine's orders (the investigation about Tranquility) he was proving to be unfit for his role. As much as I understand his reasons, he shouldn't have used his Seeker position to do it.

 

The mere existence of the reborn Inquisition in the upcoming game proves that all those who have used that argument up to this point are wrong, because the person who is actually going to save the world will be the Inquisitor. Of course, that's hindsight from our part, but "the end justifies the means" is a double-edged sword. If you don't achieve that "end", your means are wrong by default, something that well-intentioned extremists tend to forget.

 

Yep i think protecting world from world war and divine who is in good way to create one is more important than serving her if he was he would be lawful stupid.Lambert would have prevented it but divine ultimately betrayed him and his peoples.I don't belive that seekers are more than templars and well divine was dangerous so i can see lambert going against her.So it is case where subordinate listen boss because is stupid ,incompetent and leads to disaster.

[Banxey]

If Lambert had been doing his job properly in the first place, Thedas wouldn't have fallen into a war so quickly. He clearly neglected his role as Lord Seeker when he chose to ignore the abuses suffered by mages in Kirkwall, etc. His job is to weed out corruption amongst the Templar ranks, and his bias lead him to fail quite completely.

But this thread is about Justinia, the only leader in Thedas who has shown she doesn't run around like a maniac screaming "Argh! Kill it with fire!" the second she sees something she doesn't like or understand.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If Lambert had been doing his job properly in the first place, Thedas wouldn't have fallen into a war so quickly. He clearly neglected his role as Lord Seeker when he chose to ignore the abuses suffered by mages in Kirkwall, etc. His job is to weed out corruption amongst the Templar ranks, and his bias lead him to fail quite completely.

But this thread is about Justinia, the only leader in Thedas who has shown she doesn't run around like a maniac screaming "Argh! Kill it with fire!" the second she sees something she doesn't like or understand.

 

Oh please spare me kirkwall sure meredith was insane but mages were corrupted so meredith needed such methods to deal with them sadly her peoples were too soft like thrask to ended serving abomnation because of his naivety... abuses? only alrik and karras were abusing it great score corrupiton exists everywhere and you will never able to get rid off.. there is no bias mages are too dangerous and they proved that many times circles are too soft and lambert knows that...

 

Justinia is naive fool like elthina when situation need to take effective resources and not nice and naive fools will bring only damage she already did she caused world war when situation was in control... and sometimes sitiatuion require take stance "kill it with fire" ...

[Divine Justinia V]

Oh please spare me kirkwall sure meredith was insane but mages were corrupted so meredith needed such methods to deal with them sadly her peoples were too soft like thrask to ended serving abomnation because of his naivety... abuses? only alrik and karras were abusing it great score corrupiton exists everywhere and you will never able to get rid off.. there is no bias mages are too dangerous and they proved that many times circles are too soft and lambert knows that...

 

Justinia is naive fool like elthina when situation need to take effective resources and not nice and naive fools will bring only damage she already did she caused world war when situation was in control... and sometimes sitiatuion require take stance "kill it with fire" ...

No way, Meredith was already paranoid because of her past which grew to lunacy and evetually some kind of possession from the idol. She wasn't right by any means in the way she dealth with Mages.

I disagree that Thrask was soft, he wanted peace. Like 90% of Kirkwall.

Justinia isn't naive or a fool, she's trying to make a difference in a world that's been molded to hate and fear Mages, but alas, that's another topic for another time. Just my opinion though.