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Divine Justinia Discussion and Theories (Spoilers)


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#976
LobselVith8

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I think they may begrudgingly accept it, like they do the Grey Wardens. They know Grey Wardens have blood mages in their ranks, yet since the Wardens do not take sides and are fighting to protect the world from Darkspawn they are allowed to keep them. For the Inquisition, they either accept it or try to fight them, making the universal threat of the Veil Tears worse.

 

It's possible the Chantry of Andraste may not be in a position to do much about it, although some Chantry leaders may speak out in favor or in opposition to the Inquisitor, depending on their personal stances on magic, mages, and heathens.



#977
The Elder King

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It's possible the Chantry of Andraste may not be in a position to do much about it, although some Chantry leaders may speak out in favor or in opposition to the Inquisitor, depending on their personal stances on magic, mages, and heathens.


Yeah, I think we'll have a bit of freedom in developing the relationship between the Inquisition and the Chantry, based on the GI coverage.

#978
Hanako Ikezawa

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It's possible the Chantry of Andraste may not be in a position to do much about it, although some Chantry leaders may speak out in favor or in opposition to the Inquisitor, depending on their personal stances on magic, mages, and heathens.

That's another point. The Chantry is busy with its own problems, and dealing with the Inquisition will only worsen the Veil Tears and eliminate the group trying to close them. 



#979
Mistic

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I wonder if Lambert isn't actually the one behind that.

A well known White Spire Libertarian just happen to show up at the one ball Justinia happens to grace with her presence? Shortly thereafter Lambert ousts the elderly Knight-commander (knight-vigilant?) and takes control over the largest tempar force in western Thedas despite being a Seeker?

 

Wynne has an awful good point about it being suspicious. There's no proof... but it fits. And he certainly seems ruthless enough to actually try something like that.

 

Personally, I doubt it. At first, Lambert was actually doing his job. He was investigating Enchanter Jeannot's past and connections, and then found out about the mysterious murders. Typical Seeker business. And then the investigation about Tranquility happened and all went to hell, slowly but unavoidably.

 

Rhys' incarceration was a proof of this. Rhys suspected Lambert was framing him to have an excuse, but the Lord Seeker actually thought that Rhys was being used by a demon and even offered him a last chance to save the situation by confessing.

 

No, I think Lambert just served the interests of a conspiracy he didn't know about.



#980
dragonflight288

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Personally, I doubt it. At first, Lambert was actually doing his job. He was investigating Enchanter Jeannot's past and connections, and then found out about the mysterious murders. Typical Seeker business. And then the investigation about Tranquility happened and all went to hell, slowly but unavoidably.

 

Rhys' incarceration was a proof of this. Rhys suspected Lambert was framing him to have an excuse, but the Lord Seeker actually thought that Rhys was being used by a demon and even offered him a last chance to save the situation by confessing.

 

No, I think Lambert just served the interests of a conspiracy he didn't know about.

 

Except Lambert's method of asking him to confess is have a templar come in, grab him by the throat and pretty much say "confess or die."



#981
Banxey

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How can you be so sure Lamber was a pawn put in place by that mysterious opponent? I suppose you're referring to the upcoming villain in Inquisition, aren't you? But Seekers are chosen by the Divine.

 

However, now that you mention it, there is a mysterious event that kickstarted Asunder's fallout: the assassination attempt on the Divine. Lambert never found out the culprits behind it. Wynne guessed there had to be more people involved for a mage to reach that far, maybe even templars. But all of them were distracted by many other things.

 

That means that the Divine might be very interested in helping the Inquiitor to find out the truth.

 

 

My personal opinion is that the Inquisition will become and equivalent of the Grey Wardens in the end. The story of the origins and rise of the Grey Wardens during the First Blight mirrors DA:I very well.

 

Yes and no. I was referring both to the "big bad" in Inquisition, but also more directly to the players Justinia can combat. First, I do think there is evidence (the end of DotS and in DA2) to suggest that the Divine (and the previous Divine) have some forewarning about the events of Inquisition. But the only way they can combat it is to try to stabilise the land as much as possible, while the big bad seems to be trying to do the opposite. There's no direct evidence to show when Lambert was made a Seeker, or promoted to Lord Seeker. But I believe he became one (or at the very least was promoted to Lord Seeker) some time after the events of DotS when Divine Beatrix III became senile and more hard-lined Chantry insiders ruled while she served as a figurehead. I don't think it makes sense for a sane person without an agenda to put someone so obviously biased against mages at the head of an organisation whose purpose is to police Templars.

 

As far as who she is actually opposing (because I don't think she can directly fight the big bad), the implication I got from various passages in Asunder is that the ones who benefit most from instability within the Circle and the Chantry are the Chantry members opposed to Justinia (as Wynne mentions a couple of times) and Gaspard de Chalons, who benefits from Val Royeux being unstable during Celene's absense. De Chalons is also apparently against Celene's more diplomatic approach to dealing with mages and elves, so he would find friends amongst both the Chantry and Templars.

 

I wonder if Lambert isn't actually the one behind that.

A well known White Spire Libertarian just happen to show up at the one ball Justinia happens to grace with her presence? Shortly thereafter Lambert ousts the elderly Knight-commander (knight-vigilant?) and takes control over the largest tempar force in western Thedas despite being a Seeker?

 

Wynne has an awful good point about it being suspicious. There's no proof... but it fits. And he certainly seems ruthless enough to actually try something like that.

 

I keep going back and forth between believing he was merely a pawn and wondering if he was complicit. His dislike of the Divine is pretty obvious from the beginning. And he doesn't seem interested in investigating the Templars' role in the assassination attempt. He just wants to pin it on Rhys' fraternity and wash his hands of the matter. But is it because he's blind, or is it because he already knows who was responsible?

 

Either way, the same ones who benefit from Justinia's assassination attempt benefit from Lambert being in charge of the White Spire. But the forces behind it benefit the most, with the players putting a spark in charge of a powder keg.



#982
Master Warder Z_

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I wonder if Lambert isn't actually the one behind that.

A well known White Spire Libertarian just happen to show up at the one ball Justinia happens to grace with her presence? Shortly thereafter Lambert ousts the elderly Knight-commander (knight-vigilant?) and takes control over the largest tempar force in western Thedas despite being a Seeker?

 

Wynne has an awful good point about it being suspicious. There's no proof... but it fits. And he certainly seems ruthless enough to actually try something like that.

 

Eh i admit i have given this matter a fair bit of thought but ultimately came to the conclusion that the pieces ultimately didn't fit well enough for my tastes.

 

For one Lambert doesn't mind the Chantry Overly, In fact there was little to suggest he had a long standing loathing of the Divine prior to the actions at one of her private projects. He thinks the Templars and thus the Seekers should have more control in the circle and within the Chantry from his own private musings pre disappearance but there was little mentioning the Divine beyond his hope that they would elect some one more worthy to the Sun Burst throne.

 

Then we come to the fact that Lambert anulls the accord and takes at least a good majority of the Templars with him away from the Chantry, rather then moving to attack it or the Divine despite disagreeing with her views on mages and their treatment to a large degree. My point is ultimately while yes Lambert arrived after the assassination attempt by the nutter mage fraternity his behavior the entire book doesn't extend in that direction and he doesn't even move against her until she basically backed him into a corner with the mages escaping from the white spire en mass.



#983
TheKomandorShepard

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She has said, "Idealism is our stock-in-trade, Lambert. A religion without ideals is tyranny." So yes, she's an idealist. She strives to make the world the Maker's ideal. But that doesn't mean she expects it all to just fall into place. Being an idealist doesn't render you incapable of seeing other outcomes. It makes no sense that a woman who has lived around bards wouldn't at least consider alternatives, yet that seems to be the consensus. 
 
However, what nobody seems to consider is that Justinia's opponent isn't Lambert. Lambert is a pawn. He was put in place to do exactly what he's done. Had she not freed the mages, had the war not started at that moment, her opponent would have made another move. Justinia sacrificed some knights to save arch mages. If she saved them purely because she felt bad for them, why didn't she counter Lambert's request to make Pharamond tranquil again? The value of the mages may be unknown to us, but that doesn't make her naive.

 

 

What you are talking about she failed entirely because she didn't understood how dangerous mages are her naivety caused world war with walking bomb on 1 side pretty much i can see abomnations spreading destruction thanks divine...

 

Lambert pawn i don't know from where you have world was at stake when fiona went for selfish desire free walking bombs causing destruction and suffering on huge scale in thedas when divine was helping her reach that in her naivety it is understandable that guy took things on his own hand when everyone around was mooron and you know he succeeded at least would if not divine... 

and yes causing world war for few walking bombs is naive or even idiotic...

 

I wouldn't be suprised if she is an agent of chaos because as far only thing she did is destabilization of the current order and spreading chaos and destruction.When lambert was trying everything as whole.



#984
Banxey

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What you are talking about she failed entirely because she didn't understood how dangerous mages are her naivety caused world war with walking bomb on 1 side pretty much i can see abomnations spreading destruction thanks divine...

 

Lambert pawn i don't know from where you have world was at stake when fiona went for selfish desire free walking bombs causing destruction and suffering on huge scale in thedas when divine was helping her reach that in her naivety it is understandable that guy took things on his own hand when everyone around was mooron and you know he succeeded at least would if not divine... 

and yes causing world war for few walking bombs is naive or even idiotic...

 

I wouldn't be suprised if she is an agent of chaos because as far only thing she did is destabilization of the current order and spreading chaos and destruction.When lambert was trying everything as whole.

 

It's called looking at the bigger picture. I don't have a problem if you disagree, but there's no point arguing with you if you think everyone capable of showing empathy is naive, or a moron.

 

As far as Justinia being an "agent of chaos" she's not the one from Tevinter who has dark power.

 

"There was an angular cruelty to his face that put Cole immediately on edge. But it was more than that. There was something about him that spoke to Cole like a dark whisper. This man had power, something completely different from the other templars."



#985
Hanako Ikezawa

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On the issue of Lambert, Fiona, and/or Justinia being part of the Big Bad group, I think none of them are and are simply being played by those who are. It makes no sense for an antagonist person and/or group who is supposed to operate in the shadows also be in the limelight at the same time. It's certainly possible, but they are far down on my list of suspicions.



#986
Xilizhra

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On the issue of Lambert, Fiona, and/or Justinia being part of the Big Bad group, I think none of them are and are simply being played by those who are. It makes no sense for an antagonist person and/or group who is supposed to operate in the shadows also be in the limelight at the same time. It's certainly possible, but they are far down on my list of suspicions.

I don't think they are either, but mostly because I don't think Asunder will be considered vital to the plot of Inquisition. None of the ME books were to ME3.



#987
Hanako Ikezawa

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I don't think they are either, but mostly because I don't think Asunder will be considered vital to the plot of Inquisition. None of the ME books were to ME3.

Well, I think this one will be more so than the ME books simply because Fiona, Justinia, and supposedly Lambert if he survived his run in with Cole are the leaders of their factions. So while it is not neccesary to read the book to know everything that happened, the characters aren't going to not show up but probably play big parts.



#988
TheKomandorShepard

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It's called looking at the bigger picture. I don't have a problem if you disagree, but there's no point arguing with you if you think everyone capable of showing empathy is naive, or a moron.

 

As far as Justinia being an "agent of chaos" she's not the one from Tevinter who has dark power.

 

"There was an angular cruelty to his face that put Cole immediately on edge. But it was more than that. There was something about him that spoke to Cole like a dark whisper. This man had power, something completely different from the other templars."

 

Yeah if bigger picture is causing world war that you can't fix later thanks for that bigger picture empathy leads to stupid decisions , decisions have to be logical (if you want solve something) not emotional and if she did it she is stupid if she is an agent of chaos i will have better opinion about her because at least she won't be naive fool.

 

Perhaps that was about lambert being di*** i agree but world needs di***... as far it is lambert who tried mantain order and divine was spoiling it...



#989
Xilizhra

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Well, I think this one will be more so than the ME books simply because Fiona, Justinia, and supposedly Lambert if he survived his run in with Cole are the leaders of their factions. So while it is not neccesary to read the book to know everything that happened, the characters aren't going to not show up but probably play big parts.

Lambert is almost certainly dead, and Justinia's gotten plenty of lore about her dropped in the game itself. Fiona they'll probably have to shove in despite a lack of game lore, but at least she's been in two or three books as opposed to Lambert's one, and won't be that hard to introduce.



#990
Banxey

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On the issue of Lambert, Fiona, and/or Justinia being part of the Big Bad group, I think none of them are and are simply being played by those who are. It makes no sense for an antagonist person and/or group who is supposed to operate in the shadows also be in the limelight at the same time. It's certainly possible, but they are far down on my list of suspicions.

 

I agree mostly, except I don't think Justinia is being played so much as she is playing. But this isn't based on anything concrete outside of what Beatrix III said to Cassandra at the end of DotS.

 

Yeah if bigger picture is causing world war that you can't fix later thanks for that bigger picture empathy leads to stupid decisions , decisions have to be logical (if you want solve something) not emotional and if she did it she is stupid if she is an agent of chaos i will have better opinion about her because at least she won't be naive fool.

 

Perhaps that was about lambert being di*** i agree but world needs di***... as far it is lambert who tried mantain order and divine was spoiling it...

 

The bigger picture is that there is more at stake than mages getting free and being at risk of becoming abominations. But if you truly want to believe that everything could have stopped at Lambert, and Cole's sense about whatever power he possesses is due to him being a d**k then by all means, run with it. We're all entitled to our crackpot theories (myself included, obviously).  ;) 



#991
Hanako Ikezawa

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Lambert is almost certainly dead, and Justinia's gotten plenty of lore about her dropped in the game itself. Fiona they'll probably have to shove in despite a lack of game lore, but at least she's been in two or three books as opposed to Lambert's one, and won't be that hard to introduce.

He probably is, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him pop back up as a surprise in the game. But yeah, overall the entire plot of the book will be summed up in a single or a few scenes so that players who didn't read the books will know what has happened. 

 

 

I agree mostly, except I don't think Justinia is being played so much as she is playing. But this isn't based on anything concrete outside of what Beatrix III said to Cassandra at the end of DotS.

Justinia I can see as playing the game but also being played by a better player.



#992
Sir JK

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Lambert is almost certainly dead, and Justinia's gotten plenty of lore about her dropped in the game itself. Fiona they'll probably have to shove in despite a lack of game lore, but at least she's been in two or three books as opposed to Lambert's one, and won't be that hard to introduce.

 

I think you're right that the plot will not be crucial to DA:I. At best it'll have tie ins like Stolen Throne has to DAO and The Calling has to DAO:A. I think we will see Fiona as a major NPC, possibly Justinia as well (even if only briefly). Rhys and Adrian might be in, but only as minor npcs. Lambert is probably, as you say... dead. But he's not crucial to the Templars anyhow (and without him they're probably more prepared to listen... assuming they didn't all turn into Red Templars).

 

None of it, I think, has any direct relevance to the veil tears. Which will be what the game is about. All else is just "distractions".



#993
Hanako Ikezawa

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I think you're right that the plot will not be crucial to DA:I. At best it'll have tie ins like Stolen Throne has to DAO and The Calling has to DAO:A. I think we will see Fiona as a major NPC, possibly Justinia as well (even if only briefly). Rhys and Adrian might be in, but only as minor npcs. Lambert is probably, as you say... dead. But he's not crucial to the Templars anyhow (and without him they're probably more prepared to listen... assuming they didn't all turn into Red Templars).

 

None of it, I think, has any direct relevance to the veil tears. Which will be what the game is about. All else is just "distractions".

Veil Tears are caused by lots of bloodshed, so all these wars happening at once is why the crisis has occurred. 



#994
Sir JK

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Veil Tears are caused by lots of bloodshed, so all these wars happening at once is why the crisis has occurred. 

 

Possibly. I suspect there'll be more to it though.



#995
Hanako Ikezawa

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Possibly. I suspect there'll be more to it though.

Oh, there will be more than just that. I was just answering your hypothesis that these events will just be distractions when solving them will make your job easier since less blood will be getting spilled thus less Veil Tears. ^_^



#996
Sir JK

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Oh, there will be more than just that. I was just answering your hypothesis that these events will just be distractions when solving them will make your job easier since less blood will be getting spilled thus less Veil Tears. ^_^

 

Oh yeah. Hence "distractions" much like how every segment of DAO was a "distraction". Which is to say the main stages of the game ;).



#997
Hanako Ikezawa

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Oh yeah. Hence "distractions" much like how every segment of DAO was a "distraction". Which is to say the main stages of the game ;).

Ah, I misunderstood what you meant by distraction. My apologies.



#998
TheKomandorShepard

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I agree mostly, except I don't think Justinia is being played so much as she is playing. But this isn't based on anything concrete outside of what Beatrix III said to Cassandra at the end of DotS.

 

 

The bigger picture is that there is more at stake than mages getting free and being at risk of becoming abominations. But if you truly want to believe that everything could have stopped at Lambert, and Cole's sense about whatever power he possesses is due to him being a d**k then by all means, run with it. We're all entitled to our crackpot theories (myself included, obviously).  ;) 

 

Yes definitely there is bigger picture than destruction of the world ups there isn't and doesn't change fact that divine had hand in it...

There is nothing to belive lambert stopped mage templar war before it started then divine freed mages what created world war and going by that chaos so there would be no problem at least on mage-templar case. As i said it would be stupid if lambert was agent of chaos because if name have something with their goals/means they are spreading chaos as goal or way to achieve their goal and lambert tried mantain order unlike divine who did everything to start war... 



#999
Rinshikai10

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She has said, "Idealism is our stock-in-trade, Lambert. A religion without ideals is tyranny." So yes, she's an idealist. She strives to make the world the Maker's ideal. But that doesn't mean she expects it all to just fall into place. Being an idealist doesn't render you incapable of seeing other outcomes. It makes no sense that a woman who has lived around bards wouldn't at least consider alternatives, yet that seems to be the consensus. 
 
However, what nobody seems to consider is that Justinia's opponent isn't Lambert. Lambert is a pawn. He was put in place to do exactly what he's done. Had she not freed the mages, had the war not started at that moment, her opponent would have made another move. Justinia sacrificed some knights to save arch mages. If she saved them purely because she felt bad for them, why didn't she counter Lambert's request to make Pharamond tranquil again? The value of the mages may be unknown to us, but that doesn't make her naive.

 

 

My belief is Justinia sees what her goal is, and believes that the Circle can ideally change, but at the same time doesn't see the reality of the situation and the true obstacles. I think that like Wynne she sees only her plan and does not listen to the advice of others. Wynne didn't realize how far things had fallen until Fionas speech at the collage. (The First Enchanters were starting to side against Wynne even before Lambert entered.) Only making what that Pride Demon said in the fade all the more believable when it calls her out on not seeing past her plans.

 

I believe that she gave into Lamberts request simply to appease him. She seems to use this tactic more then any other. Which makes gaining support from the various groups all the more difficult.

 

Though that's just my opinion of the situation.   



#1000
Jessica Merizan

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(Moving this thread to Story, Campaign, and Characters)