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[Banxey]

My belief is Justinia sees what her goal is, and believes that the Circle can ideally change, but at the same time doesn't see the reality of the situation and the true obstacles. I think that like Wynne she sees only her plan and does not listen to the advice of others. Wynne didn't realize how far things had fallen until Fionas speech at the collage. (The First Enchanters were starting to side against Wynne even before Lambert entered.) Only making what that Pride Demon said in the fade all the more believable when it calls her out on not seeing past her plans.

 

I believe that she gave into Lamberts request simply to appease him. She seems to use this tactic more then any other. Which makes gaining support from the various groups all the more difficult.

 

Though that's just my opinion of the situation.   

 

I think she had to concede something to Lambert. I don't think concessions are something she does lightly. She has to be fair, she can't give people cause to claim she is biased. 

 

But if you remember how she was in Leliana's Song, she didn't just free Leliana, she gave her an opportunity to save herself. And it made Leliana stronger, it gave her a reason to fight. Not only that, but Justinia/Dorothea didn't try to manipulate Leliana into returning to the Chantry. She just let her know it was there for her. It seemed important to Justinia that Leliana made that decision herself. And I think she was doing the same thing for the mages, giving them a chance to make them stronger. It might have been too late, and you can argue that she expected both the mages and Leliana to tow the line, but my view is that she knows people better than that. She's someone we've seen admit to her failings, and attempt to fix problems she's created. I just don't see her being that deluded.

 

So I think what you're saying is that her actions show she is blindly optimistic, while what I am saying is that there are elements of faith in her actions, but they are not solely based on it.  I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Rinshikai.

[Sir JK]

My belief is Justinia sees what her goal is, and believes that the Circle can ideally change, but at the same time doesn't see the reality of the situation and the true obstacles. I think that like Wynne she sees only her plan and does not listen to the advice of others. Wynne didn't realize how far things had fallen until Fionas speech at the collage. (The First Enchanters were starting to side against Wynne even before Lambert entered.) Only making what that Pride Demon said in the fade all the more believable when it calls her out on not seeing past her plans.

 

I believe that she gave into Lamberts request simply to appease him. She seems to use this tactic more then any other. Which makes gaining support from the various groups all the more difficult.

 

Though that's just my opinion of the situation.   

 

I'm not sure about this at all. Her primary tactic seem rather to be to shut things down as soon as she can, rather than appease. She wasn't ever going to call the conclave, Wynne forced her hand in that. But she improvised and secured Lambert's, temporary, cooperation when he wanted to execute the party right then and there.

Moreover, the choice of location was hers... not his. Which leads me to suspect that she knew she couldn't count on Lambert to play ball... and so she kept him and them close enough to be able to act in time (rather than wait a week for news from Cumberland).

 

She did in fact not give in to Lambert at all. The conclave was Wynne's idea and the concessions was the neccessary price to make it happen. But Lambert was rather vocal on what he wanted and it was not it.

[Rinshikai10]

@Banxey

 

Can you give me an example of when Justinia gave the Mages a chance to make a decision for themselves? To me it just looked like they where told what to do.

 

You and I will have to agree to disagree on how well she knows people. Had she known people as well as you claim, she would have seen what Fiona would do before the Conclave even happened. Throughout Asunder I don't recall her ever admitting to her failures.

 

@SirJK

 

If I remember correctly Wynne tells Rhys that it was the Divine that ordered her to spread the news about the research before they returned as a way to prevent Lambert from stopping the Conclave. It is my understand that Justinia did this in order to say she knew nothing about what Wynne did, and force Lamberts hand.

 

Though how much trust can we place on Wynne?

[wcholcombe]

Justina was playing the game under a different set of rules than whomever it is that is pulling strings and manipulating events.  She was trying to hold all the different opposing sides together and still accomplish the major changes that were necessary to fix the situation.  Her long term goal was a middle ground that involved reforming both the Templars and the Circles.  Both sides would not be happy, but in many ways the situation long term would have been vastly improved.

 

Plus, we don't see the reforms that it only makes sense she was planning at the same time for the Chantry itself.  If she was looking at knocking back the hard liners in the templars and reforming circle law and practices, it would only make sense that she would be reforming the chantry itself.  Thats a big task to undertake while also seeking to hold everything together.

 

Her opponent has a much simpler task in seeking to destabilize and destroy.  Lambert and Fiona both have much simpler tasks in that all they are concerned with is their own little section of the issue.  They can act much more unilaterally.

 

Also, again don't discount Justina's skills and abilities.  It may end up being her reach exceeded her grasp, but the woman by all accounts became divine without anyone really knowing anything about her and completely fooling everyone into thinking she would be a figure head.

[Rinshikai10]

@Wcholcombe

 

I'm a little skeptical that her idea's for change could vastly improve the situation. We know that the Chantry as a whole is not united behind her. Which IMHO is one of the most important steps to changing something. 

 

In the six years since she has become Divine I can't really see what she has truly changed. Other then losing a bulk of the Chantry powers.

 

IMO she should have had Fiona come to her so she could keep her around like Lambert. However, I doubt that Justinia would listen Fiona, due to conflicting ideals. Even though as Grand Enchanter it is her job to advise the Divine and speak on behalf of the Circle of Magi.

 

I'm starting to see the M/T war as a coin being flipped on a perfectly flat surface. Heads or Tails. 

[Sir JK]

@SirJK

 

If I remember correctly Wynne tells Rhys that it was the Divine that ordered her to spread the news about the research before they returned as a way to prevent Lambert from stopping the Conclave. It is my understand that Justinia did this in order to say she knew nothing about what Wynne did, and force Lamberts hand.

 

Though how much trust can we place on Wynne?

 

I reread the chapter with the meeting. Wynne practically ambushed the Divine with the news and she was very angry and displeased. Wynne has to convince her to allow the meeting to be held even once. If she planned it ahead, then she's probably one of the best actors in Thedas. But I genuinely think that it was all Wynne. Justinia was not happy...

[TheKomandorShepard]

I think she had to concede something to Lambert. I don't think concessions are something she does lightly. She has to be fair, she can't give people cause to claim she is biased. 

 

But if you remember how she was in Leliana's Song, she didn't just free Leliana, she gave her an opportunity to save herself. And it made Leliana stronger, it gave her a reason to fight. Not only that, but Justinia/Dorothea didn't try to manipulate Leliana into returning to the Chantry. She just let her know it was there for her. It seemed important to Justinia that Leliana made that decision herself. And I think she was doing the same thing for the mages, giving them a chance to make them stronger. It might have been too late, and you can argue that she expected both the mages and Leliana to tow the line, but my view is that she knows people better than that. She's someone we've seen admit to her failings, and attempt to fix problems she's created. I just don't see her being that deluded.

 

So I think what you're saying is that her actions show she is blindly optimistic, while what I am saying is that there are elements of faith in her actions, but they are not solely based on it.  I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Rinshikai.

 

Hah we are little naive don't we?

I mean come on she was playing leliana like a puppet which leliana is... she wanted papers back not to help leliana it is easy to see that she played with leliana feelings and desire for revenge to get papers back... 

 

well what you are saying is pretty much same what being naive just put in kind words.

 

And yeah because killing templars is totally unbiased duh what a ass no wonder why mages or templars don't want have nothing to do with ther

[Banxey]

@Banxey

 

Can you give me an example of when Justinia gave the Mages a chance to make a decision for themselves? To me it just looked like they where told what to do.

 

You and I will have to agree to disagree on how well she knows people. Had she known people as well as you claim, she would have seen what Fiona would do before the Conclave even happened. Throughout Asunder I don't recall her ever admitting to her failures.

 

@SirJK

 

If I remember correctly Wynne tells Rhys that it was the Divine that ordered her to spread the news about the research before they returned as a way to prevent Lambert from stopping the Conclave. It is my understand that Justinia did this in order to say she knew nothing about what Wynne did, and force Lamberts hand.

 

Though how much trust can we place on Wynne?

 

I think the choice was choosing between separation and compromise. I am going to have to disagree that she didn't know what Fiona would do. I believe it is unlikely Fiona would lay low waiting for a chance to act. Especially since things were steadily getting worse for mages over the previous decade. It would have been an enormous oversight not to keep an eye on a very headstrong Grand Enchanter, who pushed for separation and had her rights revoked. 

 

Hah we are little naive don't we?

I mean come on she was playing leliana like a puppet which leliana is... she wanted papers back not to help leliana it is easy to see that she played with leliana feelings and desire for revenge to get papers back... 

 

well what you are saying is pretty much same what being naive just put in kind words.

 

And yeah because killing templars is totally unbiased duh what a ass no wonder why mages or templars don't want have nothing to do with ther

 

I would explain my perspective, but it's clear you're not interested in a civil conversation. You are good for a laugh though, I'll give you that.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

I would explain my perspective, but it's clear you're not interested in a civil conversation. You are good for a laugh though, I'll give you that.

 

Well if that perspective is calling naive peoples who have elemnt of faith instead calling things that are well... depends whad do you mean by civil conversation. and thank you

[Rinshikai10]

I think the choice was choosing between separation and compromise. I am going to have to disagree that she didn't know what Fiona would do. I believe it is unlikely Fiona would lay low waiting for a chance to act. Especially since things were steadily getting worse for mages over the previous decade. It would have been an enormous oversight not to keep an eye on a very headstrong Grand Enchanter, who pushed for separation and had her rights revoked. 

 

 

I would explain my perspective, but it's clear you're not interested in a civil conversation. You are good for a laugh though, I'll give you that.

 

I understand her wanting compromise, but I don't see how separation would benefit her.

[Banxey]

Well if that perspective is calling naive peoples who have elemnt of faith instead calling things that are well... depends whad do you mean by civil conversation. and thank you

 

You're welcome. Yes, I've gathered that you think people who have faith are naive. I may not be religious, but I don't make that association. So I think arguing that particular point which neither of us would be prepared to give would be the epitome of futile.   

 

I understand her wanting compromise, but I don't see how separation would benefit her.

 

It wouldn't. It wasn't about Justinia securing power. It was about the mages finding their resolve. She gave them a choice that would cement how they were going to proceed. She may have preferred they take one path over the other, but knows it's not something she gets to decide. I think that's where her faith comes into play, and I don't think the decision was ultimately as detrimental as everyone believes given the true antagonist. 

 

That's just my take on it anyway. I could just be reading too much into it. But I don't think it will matter much in the end.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You're welcome. Yes, I've gathered that you think people who have faith are naive. I may not be religious, but I don't make that association. So I think arguing that particular point which neither of us would be prepared to give would be the epitome of futile. 

No, he thinks ANYONE who disagrees with his views are naive and stupid, not just religious people.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You're welcome. Yes, I've gathered that you think people who have faith are naive. I may not be religious, but I don't make that association. So I think arguing that particular point which neither of us would be prepared to give would be the epitome of futile.   

 

 

Well lambert was beliver did i said he was naive? Same for meredith but elthina and divine were naive not because they had faith because they were dumb and blind about it trying place that in reality...

 

 

No, he thinks ANYONE who disagrees with his views are naive and stupid, not just religious people.

 

Not rly depending on what topic  you have that impression because i argue with pro-mages very often... 

[Mistic]

Well lambert was beliver did i said he was naive? Same for meredith but elthina and divine were naive not because they had faith because they were dumb and blind about it trying place that in reality...

 

But Lambert was naive. Naive enough to pursue goals that didn't affect him directly because he thought he could (he couldn't), while letting the true people conspiring against the Divine get away. Really, Lambert? Someone tries to murder the Divine, but you're thinking only about the Tranquility cure?

 

Last time someone tried to kill the Divine (in Dawn of the Seeker), blood mages, the Knight Commander, a Grand Cleric and an army of dragons were involved. Even if you think the cure is dangerous, the assassination should be a more pressing matter, given the precedents.

[TheKomandorShepard]

But Lambert was naive. Naive enough to pursue goals that didn't affect him directly because he thought he could (he couldn't), while letting the true people conspiring against the Divine get away. Really, Lambert? Someone tries to murder the Divine, but you're thinking only about the Tranquility cure?

 

Last time someone tried to kill the Divine (in Dawn of the Seeker), blood mages, the Knight Commander, a Grand Cleric and an army of dragons were involved. Even if you think the cure is dangerous, the assassination should be a more pressing matter, given the precedents.

considering how naive ,destructive and weak current divine is i could see him don't care about her and she would be replaced by someone who lives on the ground not dream about ponies and rainbows.

 

Lambert was living on earth divine was living in her own rainbow land ignoring danger that mages present and being cut off reality ultimately destroyed order and stabilization that lambert brought by locking mages and defeating them...

 

now divine cries because she lost almost everything causing world war and seek someone who will clean her mess...

[Mistic]

considering how naive ,destructive and weak current divine is i could see him don't care about her and she would be replaced by someone who lives on the ground not dream about ponies and rainbows.

 

Even if we accept that, he still should have done his job first, since it was a more pressing matter. If the assassination attempt was instigated by the same conspiration behind the enemies in Inquisition, the ones responsible of the veil tears, Lambert's decision would mean he doomed the world instead of "saving" it.

 

Lambert was living on earth divine was living in her own rainbow land ignoring danger that mages present and being cut off reality ultimately destroyed order and stabilization that lambert brought by locking mages and defeating them...

 

The damage was still done before Asunder reached its conclusion. Or do you really believe that after Kirkwall and Rivain, the Circles would stay still once they know their First Enchanters have been arrested? That's another reason I call Lambert 'naive'.

 

now divine cries because she lost almost everything causing world war and seek someone who will clean her mess...

 

"He who laughs last laughs best". The fate of the world will rest in the Inquisitor's hands and history is written by the winners.

 

For example, If the Inquisitor crushes the Templar rebellion while supporting the Divine, in the future everyone in Thedas will say that Lambert was a dangerous maniac while praising the Divine for her foresight and political skills. And viceversa, of course. So who knows.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Even if we accept that, he still should have done his job first, since it was a more pressing matter. If the assassination attempt was instigated by the same conspiration behind the enemies in Inquisition, the ones responsible of the veil tears, Lambert's decision would mean he doomed the world instead of "saving" it.

 

 

The damage was still done before Asunder reached its conclusion. Or do you really believe that after Kirkwall and Rivain, the Circles would stay still once they know their First Enchanters have been arrested? That's another reason I call Lambert 'naive'.

 

 

"He who laughs last laughs best". The fate of the world will rest in the Inquisitor's hands and history is written by the winners.

 

For example, If the Inquisitor crushes the Templar rebellion while supporting the Divine, in the future everyone in Thedas will say that Lambert was a dangerous maniac while praising the Divine for her foresight and political skills. And viceversa, of course. So who knows.

 

1.Eee no destructive divine that goes for world war or even world destruction in own naivety is more dangerous than peoples who tried to kill her besides it was mage who screamed for freedom we have a lot insane and power hungry mages tried to kill her.After divine was done he would back to his job but as proven he was right about divine and she caused world war in her naivety.

 

2.Of course they would do nothing it was clear that templars shown they are in every way superior than mages and mages have no chances things worked that for centuries that mages might not like something but they couldn't do anything about it divine gave them false hope they jump for it because of her lambert crushed mages hope before... 

 

3.Doesn't change fact that she started world war in her stupidity yeah sure it is how world works but if divine will be in charge this world won't stay for long few years of her office and she already screwd in kirkwall and caused world war latter... im wonder even if she isn't agent of chaos she is fond of screwing up things and causing chaos especially that in da 2 she was pro templar provoking mages and then she changed her views in asunder and started provoke templars... 

[Divine Justinia V]

3.Doesn't change fact that she started world war in her stupidity yeah sure it is how world works but if divine will be in charge this world won't stay for long few years of her office and she already screwd in kirkwall and caused world war latter... im wonder even if she isn't agent of chaos she is fond of screwing up things and causing chaos especially that in da 2 she was pro templar provoking mages and then she changed her views in asunder and started provoke templars... 

 

What are you talking about? She did nothing wrong in Kirkwall? It was the Grand Cleric that refused the Justinia's help, and she isn't the cause of the world war. This was going to happen no matter who she supported and no who sat on that Chantry throne. It was inevitable. Whether you want to admit it or not, I think we all can agree on that. It's been brewing for years now.

[TheKomandorShepard]

What are you talking about? She did nothing wrong in Kirkwall? It was the Grand Cleric that refused the Justinia's help, and she isn't the cause of the world war. This was going to happen no matter who she supported and no who sat on that Chantry throne. It was inevitable. Whether you want to admit it or not, I think we all can agree on that. It's been brewing for years now.

 

Yeps totally pissing on matters in kirkwall that and we know how that ended she either sucks or planed that in both she is huge danger that will lead to doom.And yep do i have mention that she let mages escape what gave them chance to start world war when lambert had every thing in control? Without her lambert would have won war before it even started...  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Wasn't Justinia planning on possibly launching an Exalted March on Kirkwall do to the mage problem there? 

[Divine Justinia V]

Wasn't Justinia planning on possibly launching an Exalted March on Kirkwall do to the mage problem there? 

 

YUP but that doesn't matter, duh.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wasn't Justinia planning on possibly launching an Exalted March on Kirkwall do to the mage problem there? 

Yeah she planed deal with only 1 side mages so no wonder mages were angry after that that why i said she was pro-templar in da 2 then somehow started support mages and ****** off templars thats why her actions are suspicious either she is and idiot or she is planing that to bring down order...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

YUP but that doesn't matter, duh.

Apparently not.

 

 

Yeah she planed deal with only 1 side mages so no wonder mages were angry after that that why i said she was pro-templar in da 2 then somehow started support mages and ****** off templars thats why her actions are suspicious either she is and idiot or she is planing that to bring down order...

It's almost as if the situation of the world changed in those three years, so Justinia had to adjust accordingly. But no, that can't be it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Apparently not.

 

 

It's almost as if the situation of the wold changed in those three years, so Justinia had to adjust accordingly. But no, that can't be it.

 

Yeah so first ****** off mages when you can't do that more then start ****** of other side what a brilliant strategy if only both mages and templars were puppets it would work.  

 

So yep she brought 2 sides on the edge of anger and frustration making them hate her.

[Mistic]

Yeah so first ****** off mages when you can't do that more then start ****** of other side what a brilliant strategy if only both mages and templars were puppets it would work.  

 

So yep she brought 2 sides on the edge of anger and frustration making them hate her.

 

That I have to agree with. Even if she had the best intentions, by trying to appease both Mages and Templars she ended up angering both of them. What I can't see is mages and templars joining hands to overthrow the Divine, although that would be memorable.