1605 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Exactly! See how open-minded Tevinter is?

 

Seriously though, Tevinter is one of the most interesting places in Thedas. So full of extremes... A game set in the imperium must be epic.

 

It would be. While they did enslave elves for 1000 years, they enslave every other groups. And based on the city elves in Denerim, and how they payed and armed a local elf to guard the back entrance, and had an elf overseeing their guard at the apartment, they also seem to be far more open minded than most Andrastian nations regarding elven rights. Heck, Fenris's sister was in line to become a magister. You won't find that kind of elven rights in Orlais, Ferelden, or, well, anywhere else really. Save maybe the Qunari who give roles based on individual merit. Unless you're a mage/sarabaas. Or Talvashoth. 

[Iron Fist]

This won't make sense to some of you, but Divine Justinia is one of my favorite people. And I'm not talking about the character. 

[Rinshikai10]

This won't make sense to some of you, but Divine Justinia is one of my favorite people. And I'm not talking about the character. 

 

Care to elaborate?

 

 

(Several hours later)

Oh, oops

[wcholcombe]

It would be. While they did enslave elves for 1000 years, they enslave every other groups. And based on the city elves in Denerim, and how they payed and armed a local elf to guard the back entrance, and had an elf overseeing their guard at the apartment, they also seem to be far more open minded than most Andrastian nations regarding elven rights. Heck, Fenris's sister was in line to become a magister. You won't find that kind of elven rights in Orlais, Ferelden, or, well, anywhere else really. Save maybe the Qunari who give roles based on individual merit. Unless you're a mage/sarabaas. Or Talvashoth. 

Yes, they are open minded if you have magic in your family, if you are a mundane family, you are basically a city elf in the rest of Thedas.

[wcholcombe]

@Wcholcombe

 

I'm a little skeptical that her idea's for change could vastly improve the situation. We know that the Chantry as a whole is not united behind her. Which IMHO is one of the most important steps to changing something. 

 

In the six years since she has become Divine I can't really see what she has truly changed. Other then losing a bulk of the Chantry powers.

 

IMO she should have had Fiona come to her so she could keep her around like Lambert. However, I doubt that Justinia would listen Fiona, due to conflicting ideals. Even though as Grand Enchanter it is her job to advise the Divine and speak on behalf of the Circle of Magi.

 

I'm starting to see the M/T war as a coin being flipped on a perfectly flat surface. Heads or Tails. 

The issue here is the idea that ya'll think Justina is losing power.  The templars aren't her power. Neither are the GC and high mukity mucks of the Chantry.  It is the faithful.  The people of Thedas who see her as the divine embodiment of Andraste on Thedas.  Its just like the most powerful and influential Popes in history, their power came from the Catholic faithful not the kings/cardinals/swiss guard. 

 

If the templars publicly set themselves up in opposition to the Divine, they will lose the public's support.  People aren't rational about religion, especially in the time period we are speaking of and especially in regards to their divine figure heads.

 

Example of this, look at Pope Julius II and John Paul II, both were two of the most influential and powerful popes in history.  Both were extremely unpopular with the powers that be in the Catholic Church in their time.  Both were also extremely popular with the catholic faithful. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The issue here is the idea that ya'll think Justina is losing power.  The templars aren't her power. Neither are the GC and high mukity mucks of the Chantry.  It is the faithful.  The people of Thedas who see her as the divine embodiment of Andraste on Thedas.  Its just like the most powerful and influential Popes in history, their power came from the Catholic faithful not the kings/cardinals/swiss guard. 

 

If the templars publicly set themselves up in opposition to the Divine, they will lose the public's support.  People aren't rational about religion, especially in the time period we are speaking of and especially in regards to their divine figure heads.

 

Example of this, look at Pope Julius II and John Paul II, both were two of the most influential and powerful popes in history.  Both were extremely unpopular with the powers that be in the Catholic Church in their time.  Both were also extremely popular with the catholic faithful. 

Indeed. I think this is going to be one of the things that will put Templars and mages on equal footing in the Mage-Templar War. 

[Rinshikai10]

The issue here is the idea that ya'll think Justina is losing power.  The templars aren't her power. Neither are the GC and high mukity mucks of the Chantry.  It is the faithful.  The people of Thedas who see her as the divine embodiment of Andraste on Thedas.  Its just like the most powerful and influential Popes in history, their power came from the Catholic faithful not the kings/cardinals/swiss guard. 

 

If the templars publicly set themselves up in opposition to the Divine, they will lose the public's support.  People aren't rational about religion, especially in the time period we are speaking of and especially in regards to their divine figure heads.

 

Example of this, look at Pope Julius II and John Paul II, both were two of the most influential and powerful popes in history.  Both were extremely unpopular with the powers that be in the Catholic Church in their time.  Both were also extremely popular with the catholic faithful. 

 

I have never once heard anyone call her that.

 

A while back I had a discussion with Dragonflight288 about Justinia. Outside of Orlais chances are the commoners/faithful know next to nothing about her other then that she is Orlesian and the Divine. Other then that it likely has no real affect on their lives. Its like the civil war between Celene and Gaspard. Does it really matter to the commoners who sides on the throne? It will affect the nobles that interact with them, but I have my doubts life will really change for the masses.  

 

To say that she has no power over the Templar, Mages, or Grand Clerics is like saying a General in not responsible for the men under them. That's not how leadership works. When soldiers lack discipline the fault lies with the commanding officer.

 

If she wasn't losing power and influence she would not have Cassandra and Leliana looking for the Warden and Hawke.   

 

That just my opinion though.       

[azarhal]

@Rinshikai10

 

The Divine is seen as the metaphorical bride of the Maker, that was mentioned somewhere in one of the games. Might have been from Leliana in DAO. I think her crowning ceremony is a wedding even, but I might be transposing a theory here and it was never written/mentioned in game (I just remember reading that, but not where I read it).

 

Her faithfuls knows who she is and probably who all the Grand Clerics are as well (by their office, which is all that matter in a religion). World of Thedas even called Cassandra famous for being the right hand of the Divine. The Chantry assure the educations of the commoners, even the city elves. They are in all level of the society from the poor to the very rich. Chantry mothers are the power in smaller cities (like in Lothering). Even in larger cities, like Kirkwall, they have considerable power over everyone. The Chantry is what Christianity was in Medieval Europe or close to what Christianity is in South America or Muslim is in some countries. If you want a fantasy equivalent, it's like the Faith of the Seven in A Song of Ice and Fire. The Divine just has to brand the Templars has heretics for the majority population to see them as such.

 

The Thedasians are Andrastians first, not Templars supporter first. DA2 suggested that the population was starting to turn their backs on Templars more and more (mentioned by Cullen and not just in Kirkwall) and that was before their ditched the Chantry. And now the Templars have a problem anyway, the order is a creation of the Chantry, they are defectors, but they cannot return to what they were before that, because someone else called dibs on the Inquisition first...

 

By the way, the Divine didn't not send Cassandra and Leliana to find the Warden and/or Hawkes, that wasn't the "original plan" as Cassandra puts it. On top of that, Gaider said there was more to the interrogation than finding Hawkes, so it's possible they were not looking for them for the reasons fans believe they are (aka gain influence).

[TheKomandorShepard]

Divine in reality have now very little power no one will listen her besides perhaps lower class that have 0 influence and more fanatical nobles she don't have army besides few who stayed loyal to her ,she caused world war and have dirty account reveal what she did and she is done as divine... rest of the world have own problems to deal so no one will let their country sink because divine have desire and needs help.

 

She was looking for hawke and warden so i guess she need influence that she don't have and she will be desperate to resurrect inquisition and made guy who may be totally hostile toward chantry leader if arts are true...

 

Besides she is navie it won't be hard destroy her for my inq assuming that devs won't pull another stupidity is only option...

 

She is incompetent leader and lack charisma , cleverness and common sense to be one...

[wcholcombe]

I have never once heard anyone call her that.

A while back I had a discussion with Dragonflight288 about Justinia. Outside of Orlais chances are the commoners/faithful know next to nothing about her other then that she is Orlesian and the Divine. Other then that it likely has no real affect on their lives. Its like the civil war between Celene and Gaspard. Does it really matter to the commoners who sides on the throne? It will affect the nobles that interact with them, but I have my doubts life will really change for the masses.

To say that she has no power over the Templar, Mages, or Grand Clerics is like saying a General in not responsible for the men under them. That's not how leadership works. When soldiers lack discipline the fault lies with the commanding officer.

If she wasn't losing power and influence she would not have Cassandra and Leliana looking for the Warden and Hawke.

That just my opinion though.

The Chantry is modeled off the Roman Catholic church. The Divine is the in game version of the pope. Justina's name is most likely mentioned weekly in services in the chantries. Every country outside of Qunari, Tevinter, dalish, and dwarves the chantry is the dinant faith. Being middle to dark ages based the Chantry is the source of education and most any assistance the common people receive. It is actually more likely the commoners are more loyal to the Divine than to their own ruler. I never said she wwasn't responsible for templars and such, just that they weren't the source of her power. And yes, just like the pope in the roman catholic church, the divine is seen as a divine representative chosen by andraste or the maker or some such.

[Sir JK]

A while back I had a discussion with Dragonflight288 about Justinia. Outside of Orlais chances are the commoners/faithful know next to nothing about her other then that she is Orlesian and the Divine. Other then that it likely has no real affect on their lives. Its like the civil war between Celene and Gaspard. Does it really matter to the commoners who sides on the throne? It will affect the nobles that interact with them, but I have my doubts life will really change for the masses. 

 

I'm sorry, but this is a nonsensical claim. The commoners of Thedas will absolutely know who the current Divine is (barring the first few months as the news is travelling). Not only because their local Chantry will know (and tell them) but also because most of them will care and it's one of the few pieces of world news that actually reaches them (and as such it's automatically interesting). It's also one of the changes on a societal level that people will notice as the Divine sets the agenda ("right now I'd like that we focus on combatting poverty").

 

News may be slow, but they won't be nonexistent. Besides... we've already seen that news of an attempted assassination reached commoners, why wouldn't her name?

[wcholcombe]

Divine in reality have now very little power no one will listen her besides perhaps lower class that have 0 influence and more fanatical nobles she don't have army besides few who stayed loyal to her ,she caused world war and have dirty account reveal what she did and she is done as divine... rest of the world have own problems to deal so no one will let their country sink because divine have desire and needs help.

 

She was looking for hawke and warden so i guess she need influence that she don't have and she will be desperate to resurrect inquisition and made guy who may be totally hostile toward chantry leader if arts are true...

 

Besides she is navie it won't be hard destroy her for my inq assuming that devs won't pull another stupidity is only option...

 

She is incompetent leader and lack charisma , cleverness and common sense to be one...

The wikia disagrees with you Shepard, as does the fact that incompetent people don't usually assend to such powerful positions.

 

"Divine Justinia V is the current Divine of the Andrastian Chantry, since her ascension in 9:34 Dragon. Given her past, and her dealings with the bards of Orlais, Justinia V is reputed to be one of the finest players of The Grand Game.["

 

Plus, I think an incompetent, non charismatic, unclever, and common sense lacking bard in orlais would be a dead bard.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The wikia disagrees with you Shepard, as does the fact that incompetent people don't usually assend to such powerful positions.

 

"Divine Justinia V is the current Divine of the Andrastian Chantry, since her ascension in 9:34 Dragon. Given her past, and her dealings with the bards of Orlais, Justinia V is reputed to be one of the finest players of The Grand Game.["

 

Plus, I think an incompetent, non charismatic, unclever, and common sense lacking bard in orlais would be a dead bard.

 

Hmm yes she was screwd by marjolene she totally screwd up mage-templar war situation , she made everyone she could her enemy , she caused world war... it is far from competent person she was chosen because previous divine chose her... don't mention that her assassins tell their real name and for who they are working random peoples including future terrorist that will go against the chantry good job divine , even lambert outsmarted her...

 

Marjolene paranoid bard with lack of common sense? Leliana naive and gullible bard?

[wcholcombe]

Hmm yes she was screwd by marjolene she totally screwd up mage-templar war situation , she made everyone she could her enemy , she caused world war... it is far from competent person she was chosen because previous divine chose her... don't mention that her assassins tell their real name and for who they are working random peoples including future terrorist that will go against the chantry good job divine , even lambert outsmarted her...

 

Marjolene paranoid bard with lack of common sense? Leliana naive and gullible bard?

Hey she is changing the world.  When she makes an omelet that big she is going to break some eggs. The only one that she actually made an enemy of was Lambert.  The templars aren't marching on the Grand Cathedral, a break doesn't make them enemies.  As for the mages, if they consider Justinia and enemy...they are dumber than Lambert. I think we will find the Justinia will come out on top vs. both the mages and the templars. I don't think Lliana is naive or gullible and Marjolene may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean she lacks common sense.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hey she is changing the world.  When she makes an omelet that big she is going to break some eggs. The only one that she actually made an enemy of was Lambert.  The templars aren't marching on the Grand Cathedral, a break doesn't make them enemies.  As for the mages, if they consider Justinia and enemy...they are dumber than Lambert. I think we will find the Justinia will come out on top vs. both the mages and the templars. I don't think Lliana is naive or gullible and Marjolene may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean she lacks common sense.

 

Yeah breaking eggs and blowing up entire house are 2 different things... She pissed off mages first now they hate her then when mages were on edge she started ****** off templars and brought both on edge and both see her as enemy... Yep they want kick out her when they will destroy/capture mages that pretty much enemy... and mages are smart they don't trust her considering how deals with chantry ends and how she acted before asunder she is very shady figure...

 

She is one bottom currently and seeks desperately someone who will clean her mess that would explain warden hawke and now inquisitor...

 

of course leliana is naive and gullible marjolene screwd her first and then the warden can easily and her blind naivety in chantry counts as well...

well yes she attacked grey warden and leliana because she left chantry and thought she is more important than blight definitely common sense...

[wcholcombe]

Yeah breaking eggs and blowing up entire house are 2 different things... She pissed off mages first now they hate her then when mages were on edge she started ****** off templars and brought both on edge and both see her as enemy... Yep they want kick out her when they will destroy/capture mages that pretty much enemy... and mages are smart they don't trust her considering how deals with chantry ends and how she acted before asunder she is very shady figure...

 

She is one bottom currently and seeks desperately someone who will clean her mess that would explain warden hawke and now inquisitor...

 

of course leliana is naive and gullible marjolene screwd her first and then the warden can easily and her blind naivety in chantry counts as well...

well yes she attacked grey warden and leliana because she left chantry and thought she is more important than blight definitely common sense...

lol Shepard you are entertaining.  Justinia still has enough power to bring both sides to the table of a peace conference in DAI.  Again, what happens if she declares a Divine March on the Templars?  She won't, but she can and guess what?  The roughly 60% of the population of Thedas that is loyal to the Chantry would answer the call.  The Divine March isn't a threat to use templars against you, it is to use the combined power of the Chantry faithful against you.  The simple fact that the word Divine is in front of her name gives her unimaginable power politically and culturally. 

 

Lambart and his templars leaving is about as cripiling as as the ash warriors leaving ostagar, ie not that much. Especially when there are indications that not all of them, or possibly even the majority left.  It is entirely possible the Red Templars are the ones who left and the rest are still loyal to the chantry. 

 

But again, your view point of Justinia is entertaining, keep it up.

[wcholcombe]

Yeah breaking eggs and blowing up entire house are 2 different things... She pissed off mages first now they hate her then when mages were on edge she started ****** off templars and brought both on edge and both see her as enemy... Yep they want kick out her when they will destroy/capture mages that pretty much enemy... and mages are smart they don't trust her considering how deals with chantry ends and how she acted before asunder she is very shady figure...

 

She is one bottom currently and seeks desperately someone who will clean her mess that would explain warden hawke and now inquisitor...

 

of course leliana is naive and gullible marjolene screwd her first and then the warden can easily and her blind naivety in chantry counts as well...

well yes she attacked grey warden and leliana because she left chantry and thought she is more important than blight definitely common sense...

Oh, btw I don't think Cassandra is looking for Hawke and company for the mage war, she is looking for them because Justinia is wanting to find out who is pulling the strings but has her hands full making the templars and mages sit down and play nice.

 

 

BTW, Lelianna believing what people she is in love with tell her isn't gullible, it means she believes the best about the people she loves.  The fact that you as a warden treat her like dirt says more about you than it does her.  Faith in the Chantry isn't gullible either it is faith.

[TheKomandorShepard]

lol Shepard you are entertaining.  Justinia still has enough power to bring both sides to the table of a peace conference in DAI.  Again, what happens if she declares a Divine March on the Templars?  She won't, but she can and guess what?  The roughly 60% of the population of Thedas that is loyal to the Chantry would answer the call.  The Divine March isn't a threat to use templars against you, it is to use the combined power of the Chantry faithful against you.  The simple fact that the word Divine is in front of her name gives her unimaginable power politically and culturally. 

 

Lambart and his templars leaving is about as cripiling as as the ash warriors leaving ostagar, ie not that much. Especially when there are indications that not all of them, or possibly even the majority left.  It is entirely possible the Red Templars are the ones who left and the rest are still loyal to the chantry. 

 

But again, your view point of Justinia is entertaining, keep it up.

 

Hah and who will join her ferelden that have heal wound after the blight and will help chantry who supported orlais in ferelden-orlesian war? Orlais that is corrupted and leaders fight for own power when country is in middle civil war? Nevarra that face that same? rivain that is mostly populated by followers of the qun? No one will support her everyone have own problems if she would do that she would do that to stop war no search someone who have respect and peoples will listen to... she barely breathing just kick her out of the chair what should be easy because she have a lot dirt behind her ears... 

 

Eee most templar and seekers left divine very few stayed with her...

 

this isn't view thats are fact she screwd up everything she could...

 

 

Oh, btw I don't think Cassandra is looking for Hawke and company for the mage war, she is looking for them because Justinia is wanting to find out who is pulling the strings but has her hands full making the templars and mages sit down and play nice.

 

 

BTW, Lelianna believing what people she is in love with tell her isn't gullible, it means she believes the best about the people she loves.  The fact that you as a warden treat her like dirt says more about you than it does her.  Faith in the Chantry isn't gullible either it is faith.

 

Well they were lookin for them as well the warden if she is playing nice now she is dumber than i thought...

 

Eehh of course it makes her gullible love/emotions are just reasons behind it... she is blind and well i played many times and many types of characters i treated her differently in every pt but i can say that she have those traits.Faith in traitor that betrays isn't gulliable it is faith ups wait it is...   

[Rinshikai10]

The Chantry is modeled off the Roman Catholic church. The Divine is the in game version of the pope. Justina's name is most likely mentioned weekly in services in the chantries. Every country outside of Qunari, Tevinter, dalish, and dwarves the chantry is the dinant faith. Being middle to dark ages based the Chantry is the source of education and most any assistance the common people receive. It is actually more likely the commoners are more loyal to the Divine than to their own ruler. I never said she wwasn't responsible for templars and such, just that they weren't the source of her power. And yes, just like the pope in the roman catholic church, the divine is seen as a divine representative chosen by andraste or the maker or some such.

 

My question is this. (Example) Will Herman the Anders be more loyal to the Divine, a foreign priest that lives a thousand miles south, or will he be more loyal to the local Grey Wardens that fight to keep him safe?

[WardenWade]

Hey she is changing the world.  When she makes an omelet that big she is going to break some eggs. The only one that she actually made an enemy of was Lambert.  The templars aren't marching on the Grand Cathedral, a break doesn't make them enemies.  As for the mages, if they consider Justinia and enemy...they are dumber than Lambert. I think we will find the Justinia will come out on top vs. both the mages and the templars. I don't think Lliana is naive or gullible and Marjolene may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean she lacks common sense.

Justinia seems to me as well to be attempting to work with both mages and templars in Asunder, recognizing them both. IMO she appears to be trying to do the most good she reasonably can for them in an extremely difficult situation (and without tipping her hand too much), trying to make strides to atone for the past. Some recent developer comments have made me curious as well if she might potentially attempt to build bridges with the Dalish and elven population in general:

 

 
Sounds to me like a fun opportunity to subvert the extreme position? To recognize that circumstances come up that show that collaboration comes up?
 
 

There's nothing suggesting that the short term goals of the Divine, and the short term goals of the Dalish Inquisitor, cannot be in alignment.

I appreciate what she is trying to do, and I personally believe she has good intentions. Seeing her as Dorothea in Leliana's Song has made me think for some time--along with her taking the name of a former Tevinter slave* and friend to Andraste upon becoming Divine--that she is a Divine who believes in forgiveness, and perhaps in second chances?  I think she genuinely wants to improve things, both within the Chantry and for the regular citizens of Thedas, human and non-human. I look forward to seeing what she is able to accomplish, and helping out if possible.

 

*Though, in-game, choosing a name appears to be done by picking one at random, by way of the devs/writers of the series I imagine this choice is in reality much less random for the sake of the story.

[Sir JK]

My question is this. (Example) Will Herman the Anders be more loyal to the Divine, a foreign priest that lives a thousand miles south, or will he be more loyal to the local Grey Wardens that fight to keep him safe?

 

Anderfels is bad example now isn't it? Being posssibly the only country in the world more pious than Orlais is . Anderfels is described as having exactly two things people have confidence in: the Chantry and the Wardens.

[Master Warder Z_]

Anderfels is bad example now isn't it? Being posssibly the only country in the world more pious than Orlais is . Anderfels is described as having exactly two things people have confidence in: the Chantry and the Wardens.

 

Exactly!

 

Good upstanding folks who espouse the faith of Blessed Andraste.

 

And also go around hacking up Darkspawn, Not really a negative up there.

[wcholcombe]

Justinia seems to me as well to be attempting to work with both mages and templars in Asunder, recognizing them both. IMO she appears to be trying to do the most good she reasonably can for them in an extremely difficult situation (and without tipping her hand too much), trying to make strides to atone for the past. Some recent developer comments have made me curious as well if she might potentially attempt to build bridges with the Dalish and elven population in general:

 

I appreciate what she is trying to do, and I personally believe she has good intentions. Seeing her as Dorothea in Leliana's Song has made me think for some time--along with her taking the name of a former Tevinter slave* and friend to Andraste upon becoming Divine--that she is a Divine who believes in forgiveness, and perhaps in second chances?  I think she genuinely wants to improve things, both within the Chantry and for the regular citizens of Thedas, human and non-human. I look forward to seeing what she is able to accomplish, and helping out if possible.

 

*Though, in-game, choosing a name appears to be done by picking one at random, by way of the devs/writers of the series I imagine this choice is in reality much less random for the sake of the story.

Part of the issue with her portrayal in Asunder that I think would have made people like her more is that you don't see what all she is doing outside of the mage templar conflict. I can't imagine that she is trying to reform the circles and isn't making massive reforms in the Chantry as a whole.  I believe this is what Evageline is referring too when she talks about the grand clerics not liking the way Justinia thinks for herself.

[WardenWade]

Part of the issue with her portrayal in Asunder that I think would have made people like her more is that you don't see what all she is doing outside of the mage templar conflict. I can't imagine that she is trying to reform the circles and isn't making massive reforms in the Chantry as a whole.  I believe this is what Evageline is referring too when she talks about the grand clerics not liking the way Justinia thinks for herself.

 

I agree...that's an excellent point.  I wonder if we'll see more of what Justinia is working on and where she may be involved in The Masked Empire?

[Rinshikai10]

@ SirJK

 

The point I was trying to make is the Anders may know of Justinia by name, however, that does not mean that they are more loyal to her then their own rulers. Shes a foreign leader that is unknown to the masses other then nationality and title. She may be the Divine, but does that really affect the commoners life outside Val Royeaux or Orlais?

 

While the religious aspects of the Chantry appear to be wide spread in the Anderfels. WOT tells that outside the capital city the Anders look to the Wardens for authority not the Clergy.

 

Outside of the Orlesian Empire I have my doubts that the Justinia will have as much influence as local leaders. While the Chantry is the dominant religion, its starting to look like each nation varies its view about key things.

 

Going back to Asunder, wasn't the point of the Tranquil research to force a change within the Chantry itself as well as the Circle?        

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 11 mars 2014 - 08:10 .