1605 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

@ SirJK

 

The point I was trying to make is the Anders may know of Justinia by name, however, that does not mean that they are more loyal to her then their own rulers. Shes a foreign leader that unknown to the masses other then nationality and title. She may be the Divine, but does that really affect the commoners life outside Val Royeaux or Orlais?

 

While the religious aspects of the Chantry appear to be wide spread in the Anderfels. WOT tells that outside the capital city the Anders look to the Wardens for authority not the Clergy.

 

Outside of the Orlesian Empire I have my doubts that the Justinia will have as much influence as local leaders. While the Chantry is the dominant religion, its starting to look like each nation varies its view about key things.

 

Going back to Asunder, wasn't the point of the Tranquil research to force a change within the Chantry itself as well as the Circle?        

Actually, the quote is that outside the capital the Anders look to the GW for protection more than the king.

The Anders are thought to be more pius than the Orlesians.  "Dedicated worship of the maker is all but expected among Anders, and breaking the Maker's laws-by extension, the kings laws-is often punishable by death in the capital."

 

The point is that yes they would.  They are extremely pius and they see the Divine as the living embodiment of Andraste on Thedas.  She isn't a monarch or ruler she is a living religious symbol and in a pius middle age world, those are extremely powerful.

[wcholcombe]

 

 

Going back to Asunder, wasn't the point of the Tranquil research to force a change within the Chantry itself as well as the Circle?        

As to this point, it isn't outright stated, but yes I believe the research was going to be the Divine's way to begin reforms.

[Rinshikai10]

Actually, the quote is that outside the capital the Anders look to the GW for protection more than the king.

The Anders are thought to be more pius than the Orlesians.  "Dedicated worship of the maker is all but expected among Anders, and breaking the Maker's laws-by extension, the kings laws-is often punishable by death in the capital."

 

The point is that yes they would.  They are extremely pius and they see the Divine as the living embodiment of Andraste on Thedas.  She isn't a monarch or ruler she is a living religious symbol and in a pius middle age world, those are extremely powerful.

 

Where does it say that people see her as the embodiment of Andraste? I can only remember Evageline saying something like that in Asunder, but she has met the Divine so that may have colored her view of the woman.

 

I still not convinced that the Anders would side with Justinia over the Wardens if such a situation happened. Just because she is the Divine doesn't mean much, if they are constantly fighting the Dark Spawn. 

[Sir JK]

@ SirJK

 

The point I was trying to make is the Anders may know of Justinia by name, however, that does not mean that they are more loyal to her then their own rulers. Shes a foreign leader that is unknown to the masses other then nationality and title. She may be the Divine, but does that really affect the commoners life outside Val Royeaux or Orlais?

 

While the religious aspects of the Chantry appear to be wide spread in the Anderfels. WOT tells that outside the capital city the Anders look to the Wardens for authority not the Clergy.

 

Outside of the Orlesian Empire I have my doubts that the Justinia will have as much influence as local leaders. While the Chantry is the dominant religion, its starting to look like each nation varies its view about key things.

 

Going back to Asunder, wasn't the point of the Tranquil research to force a change within the Chantry itself as well as the Circle?        

 

I think that Divine might just be one of the individuals who have influence beyond her homeland. Along with the empress of Orlais, the archon of the Tevinter senate, the First Warden, the leader of the Antivan Crows and a handful of others. She does not have absolute power, but she can practically reach any Chantry in andrastian thedas (through letters).

 

But more importantly... thanks to the Chantry... anyone could in theory reach her through letters as well. This makes her as "close" socially as the local lord is, often essentially closer than the king would be. She may be geographically distant, but her station allows her to maintain the illusion of social presence. Otto Alrik could write the Divine himself... and more importantly... got an answer. He may not have been an ordinary commoner, but he's hardly high society either. Even so that is a very powerful thing.

 

Just the hope that the Divine will hear you and intervene on your behalf is why she has reach outside the Grand Cathedral. Her voice is that of the entire faith. With it she can rebuke the wicked, recognice the brave, praise sacrefice and offer direction. And her organisation allows that to reach as far as northern Anderfels, distant Gwaren or remote Rivain.

 

Just the notion, however vain, that she could hear -you- is what gives her power. And it's very real and just as socially close as the local nobles (I dare say that getting the local revered mother to say she'll send your letter to the Divine is easier than getting an audience with your king).

[wcholcombe]

Where does it say that people see her as the embodiment of Andraste? I can only remember Evageline saying something like that in Asunder, but she has met the Divine so that may have colored her view of the woman.

 

I still not convinced that the Anders would side with Justinia over the Wardens if such a situation happened. Just because she is the Divine doesn't mean much, if they are constantly fighting the Dark Spawn. 

Well, considering the Chantry is based off the Roman Catholic Church and the Divine is based off the Pope and the Pope, especially in the middle ages, is literal divine embodiment on earth.

 

Would they march against the Wardens.....maybe maybe not, dependent on the situation and how presented.  But that only matters if she was going against the Wardens.  I think they would definitely respond if she declared a divine march on the templars.  And if she went after the Wardens, it wouldn't so much matter what the sparsely populated anderfels did.  The other faithful of Thedas would answer the call.

[Mistic]

Her faithfuls knows who she is and probably who all the Grand Clerics are as well (by their office, which is all that matter in a religion). World of Thedas even called Cassandra famous for being the right hand of the Divine. The Chantry assure the educations of the commoners, even the city elves. They are in all level of the society from the poor to the very rich. Chantry mothers are the power in smaller cities (like in Lothering). Even in larger cities, like Kirkwall, they have considerable power over everyone. The Chantry is what Christianity was in Medieval Europe or close to what Christianity is in South America or Muslim is in some countries. If you want a fantasy equivalent, it's like the Faith of the Seven in A Song of Ice and Fire. The Divine just has to brand the Templars has heretics for the majority population to see them as such.

 

Agreed. However, it's pretty normal for some people, in DA and in real life, to underestimate 'soft power'.

 

When Justinia says "Idealism is our stock-in-trade, Lambert. A religion without ideas is tyranny. As for the price, that is what I intend to discover", it's telling more about Lambert's naivety than Justinia's. Of course she has part of the fault here; she sucks at using 'hard power'.

 

And the Inquisition may benefit from it. If Justinia makes Templars and Mages the heretics and declares the Inquisitor the new champion of all that is good and holy, what do people think is going to happen? Andrastian countries choosing rogue super people over the head of their religion?

 

Going back to Asunder, wasn't the point of the Tranquil research to force a change within the Chantry itself as well as the Circle?        

 

Yes, it was, a discreet attempt at first just to know more about Tranquility. The research worked even better than expected, although at a heavy price. And then Lambert butted in.

 

Justinia seems to me as well to be attempting to work with both mages and templars in Asunder, recognizing them both. IMO she appears to be trying to do the most good she reasonably can for them in an extremely difficult situation (and without tipping her hand too much), trying to make strides to atone for the past. Some recent developer comments have made me curious as well if she might potentially attempt to build bridges with the Dalish and elven population in general:

 

Yes, why not? Some people seem to think that Chantry = Templars, or Chantry = Orlesian Empire. There's more to that. And the Dalish have also the Vir Atish'an (the way of peace), although is sadly true that even the codex mentions that the majority tends to prefer the more agressive Vir Tanadhal (the way of three trees).

[Rinshikai10]

@SirJK

 

While I agree with you that letters may be a great way for Justinia to have outside influence. There is the problem of unity within the Chantry it self. We as Readers/Player know that she is not universally loved by the Grand Clerics and others which could a catastrophic for her outside Orlais. At this point I don't believe that Justinia or we the audience know which of those within the Chantry ranks are with her or against her. 

 

Letters sent to possible allies may be a good way to gain influence. However, these can be intercepted, altered, and destroyed if they are not transported by trusted hands. The Civil War will only make these even harder to send.

 

@Misticsan

 

Can you explain how the research went better then expected? From my POV it looked like it was all but an complete failure. I thought that the goal was to see if  the Rite could  be altered so that a Mage could have their magic taken away without losing their emotions. While the rite can now be reversed, the damaged has taken its toll on the afflicted, and several hundreds died as a result.  

[Sir JK]

@SirJK

 

While I agree with you that letters may be a great way for Justinia to have outside influence. There is the problem of unity within the Chantry it self. We as Readers/Player know that she is not universally loved by the Grand Clerics and others which could a catastrophic for her outside Orlais. At this point I don't believe that Justinia or we the audience know which of those within the Chantry ranks are with her or against her. 

 

Letters sent to possible allies may be a good way to gain influence. However, these can be intercepted, altered, and destroyed if they are not transported by trusted hands. The Civil War will only make these even harder to send. 

 

We the audience, no. But I'm fairly certain Justinia knows which lot isn't her friends and which lot is (allthough, sycophants and career-"friends" probably counts as friends in this case). But yeah... that sort of power only goes so far... but it's no small thing. But even so... her enemies lie on Grand Cleric level... and the people devoted to her is far from that game and their letters are uninteresting.

 

A letter from Justinia to Empress Celene has a high risk of being intercepted. A letter from a farmer asking her to pray for his sick son will only get intercepted if someone robs the transport carrying it.

[Divine Justinia V]

We the audience, no. But I'm fairly certain Justinia knows which lot isn't her friends and which lot is (allthough, sycophants and career-"friends" probably counts as friends in this case). But yeah... that sort of power only goes so far... but it's no small thing. But even so... her enemies lie on Grand Cleric level... and the people devoted to her is far from that game and their letters are uninteresting.

 

A letter from Justinia to Empress Celene has a high risk of being intercepted. A letter from a farmer asking her to pray for his sick son will only get intercepted if someone robs the transport carrying it.

 

I agree, and I think she's a lot more clever than people give her credit for.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I agree, and I think she's a lot more clever than people give her credit for.

yeah she is genius she caused only world war and lost made hostile every peoples she could and now she have to count that "hero" will clean her mess... 

[Divine Justinia V]

yeah she is genius she caused only world war and lost made hostile every peoples she could and now she have to count that "hero" will clean her mess... 

 

How did I know you'd be the first to comment on that post, TKS?

 

I never claimed she was a genius, but I do think she is very clever. You can't take that away from her, though I know you want to.

[TheKomandorShepard]

How did I know you'd be the first to comment on that post, TKS?

 

I never claimed she was a genius, but I do think she is very clever. You can't take that away from her, though I know you want to.

 

Causing world war and making everyone hate you isn't clever it is pure stupidity unless she is agent of chaos so yes in that case i can admit she is clever otherwise everything she did to that point is only prove of her stupidity and naivety mixed... and do i rly have to add she was screwd by marjolene almost causing orlesian-ferelden war to add more of her failures?  

[Divine Justinia V]

Causing world war and making everyone hate you isn't clever it is pure stupidity unless she is agent of chaos so yes in that case i can admit she is clever otherwise everything she did to that point is only prove of her stupidity and naivety mixed... and do i rly have to add she was screwd by marjolene almost causing orlesian-ferelden war to add more of her failures?  

 

So, wait, now she caused the world war? I thought it was Fiona? Wait, no, I thought it was Anders. Hey wait a second, I thought it was Adrian?

Which is it? You cannot put sole blame on a Mage or mage supporter, it's preposterous to do so.

 

Considering she is one of the best players at the game, it's safe to say she's clever without adding all of your personal opinions about her.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So, wait, now she caused the world war? I thought it was Fiona? Wait, no, I thought it was Anders. Hey wait a second, I thought it was Adrian?

Which is it? You cannot put sole blame on a Mage or mage supporter, it's preposterous to do so.

 

Considering she is one of the best players at the game, it's safe to say she's clever without adding all of your personal opinions about her.

And who set them free? of course divine after templars imprisoned them lambert had everything in control just divine killed templars (well her assassin) so yes she caused war because if she didn't set them free they wouldn't do that...

 

Yes best players that ends screwed by everyone it is only rumor that she is best because as far she sucks and was screwd by marjolene and lambert and yep she make both sides hate her caused world war and almost ferelden-orlesian war so she sucks...

[Divine Justinia V]

And who set them free? of course divine after templars imprisoned them lambert had everything in control just divine killed templars (well her assassin) so yes she caused war because if she didn't set them free they wouldn't do that...

 

Yes best players that ends screwed by everyone it is only rumor that she is best because as far she sucks and was screwd by marjolene and lambert and yep she make both sides hate her so she sucks...

 

It's no rumor, it has been said.

So that's your final answer? Justinia is the cause of the war?

We'll see.

I give a day or two before I see you in the Uneven thread blaming Fiona again

 

also, your constant mention of "getting screwed by Marjolaine" makes me think that's all you have on her? If so

[Master Warder Z_]

It's no rumor, it has been said.

So that's your final answer? Justinia is the cause of the war?

We'll see.

I give a day or two before I see you in the Uneven thread blaming Fiona again

 

also, your constant mention of "getting screwed by Marjolaine" makes me think that's all you have on her? If so

 

Note me and TKS rarely agree but i do have to point out one thing.

 

She is the only Divine in the history of the Chantry to lose them their Templars.

 

Just putting that out there, That likely didn't win her any friends at all.

[Lulupab]

Note me and TKS rarely agree but i do have to point out one thing.

 

She is the only Divine in the history of the Chantry to lose them their Templars.

 

Just putting that out there, That likely didn't win her any friends at all.

 

Lambert is as responsible in that. Yes promote a Templar who has been lashed like a dog in Tevinter to lord seeker. Its a very good idea. He won't be biased and his mind is at rest. 

[EmissaryofLies]

She's the Chantry. She has the influence to gain more friends than she's lost.

 

Also, who's to say the junkies will not come crawling back begging for their fix?

[Master Warder Z_]

She's the Chantry. She has the influence to gain more friends than she's lost.

 

Also, who's to say the junkies will not come crawling back begging for their fix?

 

Given their responsibilities for policing Lyrium Smuggling, Connections to said smuggling to begin with and their large pockets...I doubt that will be a motivating factor for their return personally.

 

Add in the fact she's unpopular already amongst some of the Chantry due to her not being biddable enough and her losing the Templars may just cast the Chantry into flux as i said before.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's no rumor, it has been said.

So that's your final answer? Justinia is the cause of the war?

We'll see.

I give a day or two before I see you in the Uneven thread blaming Fiona again

 

also, your constant mention of "getting screwed by Marjolaine" makes me think that's all you have on her? If so

 

 

No it is rumor as i far it was mentioned by evangeline in asunder that supposedly she is one nothing more she may play game and well she is doing that but she is far from competent person to be even averge player in it...

And yes if you want argue she caused things went naturally and lead to templar victory before war started then divine let mages escape what gave them opportunity to star war... So ultimately divine caused that because fiona was neutralized by templars so at best fiona was going for war and she lost and was imprisoned and who let her escape divine...

 

Eee not all? did you missed another massive example of her incompetence like loosing her peoples and making peoples that she want have on her side hate her or starting world war?
 

[EmissaryofLies]

Given their responsibilities for policing Lyrium Smuggling, Connections to said smuggling to begin with and their large pockets...I doubt that will be a motivating factor for their return personally.

 

Add in the fact she's unpopular already amongst some of the Chantry due to her not being biddable enough and her losing the Templars may just cast the Chantry into flux as i said before.

 

Maybe, maybe not. I wonder what those Red Junkies will be up to though... If the white hats want to maintain their image they will likely confront said Templars sooner or later, by choice or chance. I wonder how the reds will retaliate. I wonder if some of the white hats will try the red lyrium...

 

Not likely, this is more than likely a temporary setback. She's still got Cassandra's seekers and Leliana. Wouldn't be hard to smear the templars as traitors to the Chantry.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Maybe, maybe not. I wonder what those Red Junkies will be up to though... If the white hats want to maintain their image they will likely confront said Templars sooner or later, by choice or chance. I wonder how the reds will retaliate. I wonder if some of the white hats will try the red lyrium...

 

Not likely, this is more than likely a temporary setback. She's still got Cassandra's seekers and Leliana. Wouldn't be hard to smear the templars as traitors to the Chantry.

 

First templars hate her , second mages hate her , thrid many chantry members hate her as well , fourth she have dirty past and her current status isn't better it won't be hard prove... and who is leliana she may or not be party member that helped hero of ferelden leliana is for dirty job that divine would be torn apart if that was published so she is nothing more than shady figure and cassandra with her few peoples who stayed with divine started question divine at least what i heard so divine have little support that mean nothing.

[dragonflight288]

Maybe, maybe not. I wonder what those Red Junkies will be up to though... If the white hats want to maintain their image they will likely confront said Templars sooner or later, by choice or chance. I wonder how the reds will retaliate. I wonder if some of the white hats will try the red lyrium...

 

Not likely, this is more than likely a temporary setback. She's still got Cassandra's seekers and Leliana. Wouldn't be hard to smear the templars as traitors to the Chantry.

 

Nor would it be hard to turn people against the templars entirely. The Red Templars can easily be seen as the templar-equivalent of Tevinter and sold that way. Get a few heralds to tell the tales of Red Templar atrocities, mix in a little hyperbole, season liberally with a pinch of Varic Tethras, and you have a recipe to make the templars look just as bad as the worst magister. 

[Divine Justinia V]

Given their responsibilities for policing Lyrium Smuggling, Connections to said smuggling to begin with and their large pockets...I doubt that will be a motivating factor for their return personally.

 

Add in the fact she's unpopular already amongst some of the Chantry due to her not being biddable enough and her losing the Templars may just cast the Chantry into flux as i said before.

You're right but as EOL said, she does have the influence that is needed to sway them back.

Also, it's foolish to only blame her for this war. She hasn't lost all of the Templars if I remember correctly.

[EmissaryofLies]

First templars hate her , second mages hate her , thrid many chantry members hate her as well , fourth she have dirty past and her current status isn't better it won't be hard prove... and who is leliana she may or not be party member that helped hero of ferelden leliana is for dirty job that divine would be torn apart if that was published so she is nothing more than shady figure and cassandra with her few peoples who stayed with divine started question divine at least what i heard so divine have little support that mean nothing.

 

She's the Divine, she is a powerful political player and she still has the seekers in her pocket, like it or not. I see little reason to believe that she's so hated as to destroy her ability to fight. The Templars are nothing more than a setback. Whether they join back up or not remains to be seen but it seems to be of little consequence in the grand scheme of things.

 

Check the codex on Leliana. She's back whether you killed her or not. Seems to be close to the Divine.

 

I have no reason to emphatically conlclude that she has 'little support'.

 

I completely disagree.