1605 réponses à ce sujet

[EmissaryofLies]

Nor would it be hard to turn people against the templars entirely. The Red Templars can easily be seen as the templar-equivalent of Tevinter and sold that way. Get a few heralds to tell the tales of Red Templar atrocities, mix in a little hyperbole, season liberally with a pinch of Varic Tethras, and you have a recipe to make the templars look just as bad as the worst magister. 

 

I can see that. Though it would take some time and serious convincing. You'd definitely have to sell the betrayal of the people bit pretty hard. Once the ball got rolling, knowing how petty Andrastians are, it would not be stopping. As you indicated.

[TheKomandorShepard]

She's the Divine, she is a powerful political player and she still has the seekers in her pocket, like it or not. I see little reason to believe that she's so hated as to destroy her ability to fight. The Templars are nothing more than a setback. Whether they join back up or not remains to be seen but it seems to be of little consequence in the grand scheme of things.

 

Check the codex on Leliana. She's back whether you killed her or not. Seems to be close to the Divine.

 

I have no reason to emphatically conlclude that she has 'little support'.

 

I completely disagree.

 

Lol she doesn't have seekers most templars and seekers left her and went with lambert... she have hand of peoples loyal to her and no one will throw their country to burn just because divine have desire especially that she is disliked by every side even among chantry members not only mages or templars/seekers.

 

It doesn't matter leliana is no more that shady divine supporter that in society would hang for her activities among with divine especially that leliana is dumb enough to tell her name and for who she is working doing dirty job heh...

 

Templars and seekers were chantry army she doesn't have now any neither that she is liked among chantry members and she have very dirty account she could be easily destroyed by simple revealing of facts about her and she have not very compatible views with what chantry represents even among as i said chantry members...

 

So yes she is so desperate that she seeks someone who will clen her mess what i said many times she was counting on the warden or hawke she didn't find them so i guess she will try use inquisitor what in my pt i hope will be her doom...

[EmissaryofLies]

Lol she doesn't have seekers most templars and seekers left her and went with lambert... she have hand of peoples loyal to her and no one will throw their country to burn just because divine have desire especially that she is disliked by every side even among chantry members not only mages or templars/seekers.

'just because divine', she's not Elthina. Don't confuse the two. She rolls the nickels, she deals the cards. She is not defenseless, though I will not deny that she's in a bad position. However, given her political power that doesn't magically vanish because some of her pets choose to leave her side, I have no reason to believe that she's powerless.
 

It doesn't matter leliana is no more that shady divine supporter that in society would hang for her activities among with divine especially that leliana is dumb enough to tell her name and for who she is working doing dirty job heh...

In what society? By any chance have you somehow missed the people packed into the chantries over the two games? I hardly believe that 'society' would hang her or Leliana. Some of them undoubtedly don't like the Divine, that much is obvious. But to the degree that you insinuate is nothing more than headcanon.

Templars and seekers were chantry army she doesn't have now any neither that she is liked among chantry members and she have very dirty account she could be easily destroyed by simple revealing of facts about her and she have not very compatible views with what chantry represents even among as i said chantry members...

She's controversial is basically the gist of this? Understood. She still has her seekers, being led by powerful people. One of which will be fighting alongside the Inquisitor. For some reason, despite player protest, I see the next Dragon Age game benefitting the Chantry in some way, either known to the PC or not. Bottomline she is not without teeth, she can and will replace her pets if they continue to be bad dogs.

So yes she is so desperate that she seeks someone who will clen her mess what i said many times she was counting on the warden or hawke she didn't find them so i guess she will try use inquisitor what in my pt i hope will be her doom...

It's good that you hope that. But as other pro-Templars so smugly told me, I don't see that happening.

[Master Warder Z_]

I can see that. Though it would take some time and serious convincing. You'd definitely have to sell the betrayal of the people bit pretty hard. Once the ball got rolling, knowing how petty Andrastians are, it would not be stopping. As you indicated.

 

It would certainly take work for a third party to erode the whole "We protect normal folks for a thousand Years" Mantra that seems to circulate about them.

 

I grant you that.

[dragonflight288]

It would certainly take work for a third party to erode the whole "We protect normal folks for a thousand Years" Mantra that seems to circulate about them.

 

I grant you that.

 

If mixed in with enough reality of the Red Templars attacking villages and killing every man, woman and child like they did at PAX in Crestwood, it wouldn't take that long. 

[EmissaryofLies]

It would certainly take work for a third party to erode the whole "We protect normal folks for a thousand Years" Mantra that seems to circulate about them.
 
I grant you that.

True.

Though I hardly think that will make a difference when red templars raid their village.

I'll save time and present the usual rebuttals of "we don't know why" or "it's not normal", even though we know exactly what long term exposure to Red Lyrim does to people. We also do not know how big of a faction they will be.

Though I have no reason to believe that they would even be introduced as an important or secondary faction if they were simply a small party of rebels.

[Master Warder Z_]

True.

Though I hardly think that will make a difference when red templars raid their village.

I'll save time and present the usual rebuttals of "we don't know why" or "it's not normal", even though we know exactly what long term exposure to Red Lyrim does to people. We also do not know how big of a faction they will be.

Though I have no reason to believe that they would even be introduced as an important or secondary faction if they were simply a small party of rebels.

 

Fair enough.

[TheKomandorShepard]

'just because divine', she's not Elthina. Don't confuse the two. She rolls the nickels, she deals the cards. She is not defenseless, though I will not deny that she's in a bad position. However, given her political power that doesn't magically vanish because some of her pets choose to leave her side, I have no reason to believe that she's powerless.
 

In what society? By any chance have you somehow missed the people packed into the chantries over the two games? I hardly believe that 'society' would hang her or Leliana. Some of them undoubtedly don't like the Divine, that much is obvious. But to the degree that you insinuate is nothing more than headcanon.


She's controversial is basically the gist of this? Understood. She still has her seekers, being led by powerful people. One of which will be fighting alongside the Inquisitor. For some reason, despite player protest, I see the next Dragon Age game benefitting the Chantry in some way, either known to the PC or not. Bottomline she is not without teeth, she can and will replace her pets if they continue to be bad dogs.


It's good that you hope that. But as other pro-Templars so smugly told me, I don't see that happening.

 

1.Eee not rly? that reason why she seeks for someone who everyone will listen to? If she had power she would use that nor desperately clean her mess as i said...

2.First divne have to have clear hands and look pretty for such monkey business leliana would be hanged along with divine thats why even in orlais nobles have pretend they have clean hands if such person is caught is crushed by opponest pointing corruption so for divine it is end... Not rly it is mentioned by codex and peoples in-universe that divine views made her many hostiles in chantry...

3.As i said seekers left with templars and few peoples loyal to her stayed so no she doesn't have seekers she have only hand of peoples... Yeah alistair was in party despite protest as well doesn't mean that he was powerfull...  And no she can't replace her "pets" because she never had ones just peoples that she pissed and left her so they weren't her pets and second if she could she would already did it not seek for help influential peoples that will clean her mess she would replace her pets and destroy everyone on her way if she was so invincible...

 

 

True.

Though I hardly think that will make a difference when red templars raid their village.

I'll save time and present the usual rebuttals of "we don't know why" or "it's not normal", even though we know exactly what long term exposure to Red Lyrim does to people. We also do not know how big of a faction they will be.

Though I have no reason to believe that they would even be introduced as an important or secondary faction if they were simply a small party of rebels.

 

 

I don't peoples are so retarded... and i have low opinion about peoples already... first red templars have different symbol than normal templars , second red templars are monsters that shoot with magic so no there is little similarities besides they are called red templars and yes red not normal templars...

[EmissaryofLies]

1.Eee not rly? that reason why she seeks for someone who everyone will listen to? If she had power she would use that nor desperately clean her mess as i said...
2.First divne have to have clear hands and look pretty for such monkey business leliana would be hanged along with divine thats why even in orlais nobles have pretend they have clean hands if such person is caught is crushed by opponest pointing corruption so for divine it is end... Not rly it is mentioned by codex and peoples in-universe that divine views made her many hostiles in chantry...
3.As i said seekers left with templars and few peoples loyal to her stayed so no she doesn't have seekers she have only hand of peoples... Yeah alistair was in party despite protest as well doesn't mean that he was powerfull...  And no she can't replace her "pets" because she never had ones just peoples that she pissed and left her so they weren't her pets and second if she could she would already did it not seek for help influential peoples that will clean her mess she would replace her pets and destroy everyone on her way if she was so invincible...

1. Explain to me how being at least peripherially involved with the organization that will likely save Thedas equates to 'not powerful'. Explain how her seekers do not matter. Explain how you know enough to be certain of the fact that she's powerless despite not having all the pieces to the puzzle quite yet.

2. As always, believe what you want. I have not a single reason to believe a thing beyond the fact that some oppose her.

3. Prove that she only has a 'handful' of people. The many seekers/templars/warriors that Cassandra had with her at the end of DA II, brings that claim into question; she can replace her pets. Do not be so quick to claim an imaginary victory when your opponent has not yet revealed her cards.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1. Explain to me how being at least peripherially involved with the organization that will likely save Thedas equates to 'not powerful'. Explain how her seekers do not matter. Explain how you know enough to be certain of the fact that she's powerless despite not having all the pieces to the puzzle quite yet.

2. As always, believe what you want. I have not a single reason to believe a thing beyond the fact that some oppose her.

3. Prove that she only has a 'handful' of people. The many seekers/templars/warriors that Cassandra had with her at the end of DA II, brings that claim into question; she can replace her pets. Do not be so quick to claim an imaginary victory when your opponent has not yet revealed their cards.

 

Do you mean inquisition please we don't have to work with her it will be your personal preference if you want helping her not necessity and devs even said that we will be able work in opposition to chantry if we want so well her life is dependent on inquisitor... And once again seekers left i tell you that 1000 times she doesn't have seekers only hand of peoples so stop ignoring reality... because she is so desperate that see seeks peoples to fix things that she screwd?

 

2.Well you are one who love refuse beliving in reality and ignore word of god claming that circles are slavery so well your call im just saying how things are... 

 

3. many you mean dozen or two peoples in kirkwall please if that is many for you well thats all i can tell as i said i don't know if you read asunder because it looks like you don't because there most templars as well seekers went with lord seeker lambert  who was leader of seekers and as well had huge authority among templars that is true leader not divine...

She screwd everything we saw she could screw she doesn't have card she is incompetent...

[Dean_the_Young]

True.

Though I hardly think that will make a difference when red templars raid their village.

I'll save time and present the usual rebuttals of "we don't know why" or "it's not normal", even though we know exactly what long term exposure to Red Lyrim does to people. We also do not know how big of a faction they will be.

Though I have no reason to believe that they would even be introduced as an important or secondary faction if they were simply a small party of rebels.

 

Actually, I think the Templar PR is a bit weaker than many people think. Not because of mage abuses (that's a niche interst to mage supporters, and I doubt commoners care) but rather just a lack of institutional validation to the public.

 

The Templars aren't exactly unpopular, but their regard seems to have been tied more to the Chantry than on their own right. According to DA2 in act 1 (Cullen, I believe- maybe Thrask), Templars have decreased in standing in recent years. I doubt that was at the instigation of the conspiracy, but rather for a lack of public vindication: there haven't exactly been any Exalted Marches or major mage-crises or other incidents to lionize the Templar Order as defenders of the weak. A military order without action is little more than a resource sink and fancy guards: Templars might be Chantry Guards and do the occasional brave feat of heroism (or abuse), but otherwise they just don't earn the reputation or respect.

 

Some of this is being a victim of their own success. Mages are out of sight, out of mind. Apostates take pains to stay low and out of sight. The more successful they are at preventing or stopping abominations, the less people will appreciate it. There's been no excitement. Sure, the Templars might be appreciated more if there were a rash of maleficar cabals about or heightened fear of mages, but the system is working well enough that this isn't happening.

 

But part of this was also creeping institutional corruption and complacency. The Rivain Circle basically got taken over by the mages without anyone mattering. Prestige and recruitment are down. Kirkwall was extremely corrupt and allowed political influence to shelter mages, and was the first major polity in known history to actually try and expell the Templars from a city with a chantry.

 

Kirkwall from this perspective isn't simply a story of Meredith overreaching a steady state of Templar power- in some respects she was leading a rebirth of Templar power, gaining standing and influence (and more recruits and resources) while tackling serious corruption and complacency that had set in the Circle, where smugglers are bringing lyrium in and mages out and anyone with enough money can make a mage above the law. Even though things seemed to get worse, Templars standing increased because they were needed: Templars cracking down on corrupt nobles, Templars helped save the city from the Qunari, Templars cracking down on maleficars and blood mages in the streets at night, Templars avenging the sins of magic in a murderous affair. It's easy on the meta-level to declare Meredith a primary villain and cause of the troubles, but outside of the mage (social) circles Meredith's tenure saw a significant rise in the standing of Templars... except, of course, where they were cracking down and catching people who later wouldn't share the same views.

 

 

So the Templars aren't the bad guys to Thedas... but they aren't the heroes of old either. The atrocities of war are going to discredity them quickly- though not necessarily to the advantage of the mages, who will face their own issues once Thedas is forced to remember mages exist (and no, they aren't moral supermen).

[EmissaryofLies]

Do you mean inquisition please we don't have to work with her it will be your personal preference if you want helping her not necessity and devs even said that we will be able work in opposition to chantry if we want so well her life is dependent on inquisitor... And once again seekers left i tell you that 1000 times she doesn't have seekers only hand of peoples so stop ignoring reality... because she is so desperate that see seeks peoples to fix things that she screwd?
 
2.Well you are one who love refuse beliving in reality and ignore word of god claming that circles are slavery so well your call im just saying how things are... 
 
3. many you mean dozen or two peoples in kirkwall please if that is many for you well thats all i can tell as i said i don't know if you readed asunder because it looks like you don't because there most templars as well seekers went with lord seeker lambert  who was leader of seekers and as well had huge authority among templars that is true leader not divine...
She screwd everything we saw she could screw she doesn't have card she is incompetent...

I am not ignoring anything. I've acknowledged that she's in bad spot. Bad spot does not mean powerless. Muhammad Ali was in a bad spot against Foreman, look how that turned out, get the point?

About not working with the Chantry. One word. Cassandra, sent by the divine herself with Leliana to investigate the Hawke and the Warden. You will be working with the Chantry by virtue of working with Cassandra unless of course you believe that she'll drop her lifelong loyalty to the institution and not find some way for her work to benefit them. Just because the player doesn't have to work with the Chantry does not mean that he or she will not unwittingly aid it by accident or that his companions will not work with the Chantry. After all, Anders helps the mage underground regardless of the most Meredith of Pro-Templar Hawkes. Not all the seekers left. Lambert's seekers left, there's a difference.

You are the one who willingly fills in imaginary gaps and then claims them as fact. It is absolutely exhausting having to sift through some of this rubbish.

Yes because she brought all of the forces under her command to the Hawke estate in Kirkwall. Even so, you do not know enough about the Divine at this point to draw the conclusion that she is utterly powerless and has no allies to call upon. Given that she is the Chantry, historically I am inclined to believe otherwise. This all of course remains to be seen in DA I, I will likely be correct in my opinion and you can continue with your headcanon.


I'll save us both some time. You will reply insisting upon your headcanon or ill informed opinion as the absolute gospel despite not having all of the facts. I will point this out. You will repeat.

You spin me right round, baby, right round....

[TheKomandorShepard]

I am not ignoring anything. I've acknowledged that she's in bad spot. Bad spot does not mean powerless. Muhammad Ali was in a bad spot against Foreman, look how that turned out, get the point?

About not working with the Chantry. One word. Cassandra, sent by the divine herself with Leliana to investigate the Hawke and the Warden. You will be working with the Chantry by virtue of working with Cassandra unless of course you believe that she'll drop her lifelong loyalty to the institution and not find some way for her work to benefit them. Just because the player doesn't have to work with the Chantry does not mean that he or she will not unwittingly aid it by accident or that his companions will not work with the Chantry. After all, Anders helps the mage underground regardless of the most Meredith of Pro-Templar Hawkes. Not all the seekers left. Lambert's seekers left, there's a difference.

You are the one who willingly fills in imaginary gaps and then claims them as fact. It is absolutely exhausting having to sift through some of this rubbish.

Yes because she brought all of the forces under her command to the Hawke estate in Kirkwall. Even so, you do not know enough about the Divine at this point to draw the conclusion that she is utterly powerless and has no allies to call upon. Given that she is the Chantry, historically I am inclined to believe otherwise. This all of course remains to be seen in DA I, I will likely be correct in my opinion and you can continue with your headcanon.


I'll save us both some time. You will reply insisting upon your headcanon or ill informed opinion as the absolute gospel despite not having all of the facts. I will point this out. You will repeat.

You spin me right round, baby, right round....

 

Yep you are many things she turned into spot that every with voice that matters hate her so well...

 

Not rly it doesn't make inquisition work with or for chantry as devs said you will be forced into alliances with orginsiation that you don't want so not wokring for/with chantry , mages or templars if you don't want to and no cassandra isn't leader of inquisition only inquisitor cassandra can be or not be enforced companion but inquisitor isn't obligated to please her and do what cassandra wants... but well it isn't first what you ignored so well...

 

So no unless you decide help them there is no real reason to think that inquisition will work with/for chantry as devs said they won't it is like saying if vivienne is companion so you will be forced to work with mages or support them...

 

So yeah most seekers left and hand supports divine and what thats give her oragniastion went with lambert...

 

Not rly you are one who constantly ignores what devs said refusing belive in that as was with that you claimed that mages are slaves or aren't walking bombs and now you refuse belive in what devs said about inquisition...

 

And yeah it was huge forces yeah i will go now and brought all my forces (sound impressive hmm?) and by all my forces i mean 5 peoples yeah im so powerfull

 

Bah spare me about headcanon with your "mages are slaves" which is ultimate truth that even devs said it isn't truth... but of course it didn't stopped from calling mages slaves

[dragonflight288]

Actually, I think the Templar PR is a bit weaker than many people think. Not because of mage abuses (that's a niche interst to mage supporters, and I doubt commoners care) but rather just a lack of institutional validation to the public.

 

The Templars aren't exactly unpopular, but their regard seems to have been tied more to the Chantry than on their own right. According to DA2 in act 1 (Cullen, I believe- maybe Thrask), Templars have decreased in standing in recent years. I doubt that was at the instigation of the conspiracy, but rather for a lack of public vindication: there haven't exactly been any Exalted Marches or major mage-crises or other incidents to lionize the Templar Order as defenders of the weak. A military order without action is little more than a resource sink and fancy guards: Templars might be Chantry Guards and do the occasional brave feat of heroism (or abuse), but otherwise they just don't earn the reputation or respect.

 

Some of this is being a victim of their own success. Mages are out of sight, out of mind. Apostates take pains to stay low and out of sight. The more successful they are at preventing or stopping abominations, the less people will appreciate it. There's been no excitement. Sure, the Templars might be appreciated more if there were a rash of maleficar cabals about or heightened fear of mages, but the system is working well enough that this isn't happening.

 

But part of this was also creeping institutional corruption and complacency. The Rivain Circle basically got taken over by the mages without anyone mattering. Prestige and recruitment are down. Kirkwall was extremely corrupt and allowed political influence to shelter mages, and was the first major polity in known history to actually try and expell the Templars from a city with a chantry.

 

Kirkwall from this perspective isn't simply a story of Meredith overreaching a steady state of Templar power- in some respects she was leading a rebirth of Templar power, gaining standing and influence (and more recruits and resources) while tackling serious corruption and complacency that had set in the Circle, where smugglers are bringing lyrium in and mages out and anyone with enough money can make a mage above the law. Even though things seemed to get worse, Templars standing increased because they were needed: Templars cracking down on corrupt nobles, Templars helped save the city from the Qunari, Templars cracking down on maleficars and blood mages in the streets at night, Templars avenging the sins of magic in a murderous affair. It's easy on the meta-level to declare Meredith a primary villain and cause of the troubles, but outside of the mage (social) circles Meredith's tenure saw a significant rise in the standing of Templars... except, of course, where they were cracking down and catching people who later wouldn't share the same views.

 

 

So the Templars aren't the bad guys to Thedas... but they aren't the heroes of old either. The atrocities of war are going to discredity them quickly- though not necessarily to the advantage of the mages, who will face their own issues once Thedas is forced to remember mages exist (and no, they aren't moral supermen).

 

You know, I think you just added a whole new perspective to Meredith and the role of templars that has seriously been lacking. I know I never considered any of these points before now simply because they never occurred to me.

 

Doesn't mean I agree with her, but given this new perspective, I think I'll entertain myself and think this through very carefully before I respond to anything. 

 

A post as in depth as what you posted deserves all the attention to detail, consideration and hopefully, a healthy debate where people emerge enlightened.

[Dean_the_Young]

You know, I think you just added a whole new perspective to Meredith and the role of templars that has seriously been lacking. I know I never considered any of these points before now simply because they never occurred to me.

 

Doesn't mean I agree with her, but given this new perspective, I think I'll entertain myself and think this through very carefully before I respond to anything. 

 

A post as in depth as what you posted deserves all the attention to detail, consideration and hopefully, a healthy debate where people emerge enlightened.

 

You want another rare and often unwelcome perspective of Kirkwall while you're at it?

 

Hawke and company, especially the kind/diplomatic Hawke with maximum friendships for companions, is one of the most corrupt actors and forces we see in the city, while Meredith is one of the most strident anti-corruption actors in the setting.

 

Hawke and family head to Kirkwall with the intent of taking refuge in the corruption of the nobility, and it only gets worse from there, especially in 'let's be nice and appreciated' playthroughs. Smugglers, raiders, murderers, thieves, apostate networks: Hawke not only kills them all, Hawke is them all. Your companions only aid and abett you further: Aveline will routinely bend and break rules in yours and the party's favor, Varric is a prefessional agent of corruption, Anders runs a resistence network of sorts, Fenris is basically squating and planing an assassination of a foreign official, Merrill is secretly practicing blood magic and demonology, Isabella is a smuggler and will betray and enable slavers for a boat, and the siblings are their own can of worms. Hawke is routinely engaging or exploiting, even encouraging or relying upon, systemic corruption for personal and party advancement. Rules are for losers, not champions.

 

And this is all portrayed benignly and benevolently, while the force cracking down on corruption the most is regularly villified for doing so.

 

True, Meredith doesn't prevent any and all corruption from taking place in the Templars: Sir Alrek remains for too long. But Meredith is responsible for increasingly cracking down on corruption inside and outside the Templars. Bribes to make a Templar turn a blind eye? The privileges and prerogatives of nobles to flout the widely accepted law? Lyrium smuggling into the Circle? Mage smuggling out of it? Freeing mages to become apostates rather arrest them out of personal sympathy? Even in act 3, when the Templars oh-so-evily seek control of the city guard, they do so by... looking to see if Aveline was corrupt and use that as grounds for dismissal. How heartless and unfair of them!

 

By the end, the city of Kirwall is having a long-overdue scouring of corrupt actors and entrenched interests and practices. Smugglers and bandits are off the streets, while Templars are being more professionalized as they can't be bribed are opposing opposing corruption in the city's governance while demonstrating less corruption themselves. The nobility is being brought to heel and under the rule of law without exceptions for money and power, a development that puts Kirkwall well ahead of, say alienage Banns in Ferelden or Orlesian slave-holding nobles or every met Tevinter magistrate. Distinctly non-benevolent blood mage networks are being directly confronted rather than left to stay hidden. Only the highest and most corrupt of actors are beyond the reach of the scouring: the Champion, and her own blood-mage harboring First Enchanter.

 

 

And yet... this is consistently treated as a bad thing, with no redeeming virtue in and of itself. Meredith's crackdowns are raising tensions- the fact that she cracks down on actual corrupt actors is not treated as a redeeming virtue. Hawke's corruption is sympathetic and admirable and treated as a virtuous person. Friending the companiosn frequently means aiding and abetting their own corruption, but is met with a smile and good cheer. Whereas Meredith's anti-corruption effects, removing doublestandards of power and wealth and making the well connected accountable both inside and outside the Templars, is considered a problem.

 

 

Just like the ME trilogy was a story disturbingly infatuated with the virtues of military authoritarianism, DA2 is a tale with an incredibly soft take on corrupt societies and turns some of the least corrupt people most opposed to the rampant and selfish corruption of Kirkwall into primary antagonists.

[Divine Justinia V]

You want another rare and often unwelcome perspective of Kirkwall while you're at it?

 

*snip*

 

That's a great way of looking at it and it's definitely something to think about.

Thank you for posting that. It's always nice to get fresh perspectives.

[dragonflight288]

@ Dean.

 

Thanks for that. I think a few years ago I participated in a debate that discussed that, but reading that gave me a flashback to that discussion. I think its focus was on Aveline and how she claims to be corrupt-free, she routinely side-steps the rules in favor of the Hawkes and company. I think that discussion got started when Etheral Writer was talking about how she and the templars are just plain incompetent, especially when it comes to Quentin and the evidence in Act 1 matching what we see in Act 2 before Quentin is finally caught upon Leandra's death. 

 

And when you think about it, everything you posted is 100% true. I think you just successfully did something that 3 years of debates with Lotion, Kommander, MisterJB and others have failed to do. Made me consider Meredith in a more sympathetic light. I'll likely bow out of this debate and give this matter a lot more thought tonight and come back in tomorrow. Just like with Loghain, when I did a playthrough and spared him, did return to Ostagar, listened to what he had to say, and it provided me with a perspective that actually makes me respect him and see sparing him as a more optimal solution than simply killing him out of hand, I have to seriously consider my stance on Meredith in regards to the fact that before the Idol, she actually isn't really that corrupt EXCEPT in the fact that she's way too involved with politics for my comfort zone, even before Hawke enters the city. 

 

I'll be honest, I doubt it'll change my stance on being pro-mage because I don't believe in punishing people for crimes they didn't commit or treat them as less than people for being what they are, which is something many templars do. Nor do I see any justification for the annulment itself in Act 3 since the Circle is not responsible for Anders actions, but I'll likely have a considerably easier time justifying making pro-templar decisions in future playthroughs. 

[Banxey]

It's been a while since I played DA2. But can't the majority of Meredith's good points be attributed to her paranoia? If so, she may have cleaned things up, but making Kirkwall a better place has little meaning if at the end of it all she becomes increasingly unstable and destroys it. I don't believe she was a villain, but she was overstepping her role before Hawke showed up and little good came of it until she went insane.

 

But I do believe she deserves the same amount of empathy as a mage who unwittingly becomes possessed by a demon.

[Banxey]

3. many you mean dozen or two peoples in kirkwall please if that is many for you well thats all i can tell as i said i don't know if you read asunder because it looks like you don't because there most templars as well seekers went with lord seeker lambert  who was leader of seekers and as well had huge authority among templars that is true leader not divine...

She screwd everything we saw she could screw she doesn't have card she is incompetent...

 

Asunder never says that the Seekers followed Lambert. Lambert makes an assumption that they will. But he makes quite a lot of assumptions fueled by bravado.

[EmissaryofLies]

Yep you are many things she turned into spot that every with voice that matters hate her so well...
 
Not rly it doesn't make inquisition work with or for chantry as devs said you will be forced into alliances with orginsiation that you don't want so not wokring for/with chantry , mages or templars if you don't want to and no cassandra isn't leader of inquisition only inquisitor cassandra can be or not be enforced companion but inquisitor isn't obligated to please her and do what cassandra wants... but well it isn't first what you ignored so well...
 
So no unless you decide help them there is no real reason to think that inquisition will work with/for chantry as devs said they won't it is like saying if vivienne is companion so you will be forced to work with mages or support them...
 
So yeah most seekers left and hand supports divine and what thats give her oragniastion went with lambert...
 
Not rly you are one who constantly ignores what devs said refusing belive in that as was with that you claimed that mages are slaves or aren't walking bombs and now you refuse belive in what devs said about inquisition...
 
And yeah it was huge forces yeah i will go now and brought all my forces (sound impressive hmm?) and by all my forces i mean 5 peoples yeah im so powerfull
 
Bah spare me about headcanon with your "mages are slaves" which is ultimate truth that even devs said it isn't truth... but of course it didn't stopped from calling mages slaves

Putting words into my mouth. Claiming things that are demonstrably untrue.

You're doing the Maker's work you know that right?

Off topic: The fact that I've had to defend the Chantry for a couple of pages requires that I cleanse myself in the waters of Lake Minnetonka

[TheKomandorShepard]

Asunder never says that the Seekers followed Lambert. Lambert makes an assumption that they will. But he makes quite a lot of assumptions fueled by bravado.

 

considering that lambert have authority among not only seekers but also templars shows he is good leader after all even peoples that he didn't commands follow him and he is lord seeker and even varric thinks that all templars and seekers left chantry so well if majority stayed with divine if would be otherwise when cassandra informs him that some stayed loyal to divine...  As far lambert is like meredith he always is right but no one want to listen.

 

 

Putting words into my mouth. Claiming things that are demonstrably untrue.

You're doing the Maker's work you know that right?

Off topic: The fact that I've had to defend the Chantry for a couple of pages requires that I cleanse myself in the waters of Lake Minnetonka

 

 

Where i put words in your mouth if that is in case im sorry and explain me where if you mean that you didn't called circles slavery ignoring wog for entire conversation in another topic and you kept calling circles slavery so well nope you did...

[EmissaryofLies]

Where i put words in your mouth if that is in case im sorry and explain me where if you mean that you didn't called circles slavery ignoring wog for entire conversation in another topic and you kept calling circles slavery so well nope you did...

Claiming that I refute what devs have said about Inquisition. I have not. I have simply indicated, with evidence, that because the protagonist is uninvolved with the Chantry does not mean that his/her companions will not be as well. I also claimed that Cassandra will find a way to help the Divine, thus helping the Chantry. There's no irrefutable reason to believe that is untrue, while I can reason that she's a seeker that stayed with the Divine, therefore it's fair to assume loyalty despite working with an anti Chantry Inquisitor. This also is not solid proof, just a logical likelihood given that DA II Anders works with the Mage Underground regardless of Hawke's actions or beliefs i.e. companions will have interests of their own and they are capable of being double agents.

The current Mage/Chantry relationship is a reflection of slavery. I see little reason to change my stance on the subject.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Claiming that I refute what devs have said about Inquisition. I have not. I have simply indicated, with evidence, that because the protagonist is uninvolved with the Chantry does not mean that his/her companions will not be as well. I also claimed that Cassandra will find a way to help the Divine, thus helping the Chantry. There's no irrefutable reason to believe that is untrue, while I can reason that she's a seeker that stayed with the Divine, therefore it's fair to assume loyalty despite working with an anti Chantry Inquisitor. This also is not solid proof, just a logical likelihood given that DA II Anders works with the Mage Underground regardless of Hawke's actions or beliefs i.e. ompanions will have interests of their own and they are capable of being double agents.

The current Mage/Chantry relationship is a reflection of slavery. I see little reason to change my stance on the subject.

So i misunderstood but still meaningless inquisition is organisation ruled by inquisitor not cassandra if we desire we can support chantry if not well you don't have to that so cassandra follow inq not inq her as i said varric can belive what he likes but that doesn't mean that inquisition supports carta because he belives in it same with cassandra she can scream about my choices then if she will do that expect do that to her not wait to point when she turns one me... Da 2 was one big "stupidity is only option" and pro-templars shuld have option to cut anders after we know that he is an abomnation hawke was big idiot so i hope that can't act instead sit on ass and wait for things to go badly... like with anders or petrice... 

 

Current society is reflection of slavery we are slaves oh my gosh we are slaves!   

[azarhal]

Actually, I think the Templar PR is a bit weaker than many people think. Not because of mage abuses (that's a niche interst to mage supporters, and I doubt commoners care) but rather just a lack of institutional validation to the public.

 

The Templars aren't exactly unpopular, but their regard seems to have been tied more to the Chantry than on their own right. According to DA2 in act 1 (Cullen, I believe- maybe Thrask), Templars have decreased in standing in recent years. I doubt that was at the instigation of the conspiracy, but rather for a lack of public vindication: there haven't exactly been any Exalted Marches or major mage-crises or other incidents to lionize the Templar Order as defenders of the weak. A military order without action is little more than a resource sink and fancy guards: Templars might be Chantry Guards and do the occasional brave feat of heroism (or abuse), but otherwise they just don't earn the reputation or respect.

 

It is Cullen and he especially said it was related to the mage plight. The image of a poor apprentice being abused by a Templar makes wonders for commoners to distrust said Templars.

 

And I doubt that Kirkwall's Templars murdering none-mages on the rumors they helped mage runaways is going to help their PR with the commoners (that happen in Act 3).

[Mistic]

As always, Dean_the_Young provides excellent and insightful perspectives about these issues, something that makes me wonder why DA2 couldn't do better (it's a rethorical question, by the way).

 

I never realized before that the Templars have been slowly dying of success. When they do their jobs properly, nobody notices they exist outside the Circles and the Chantry. With no religious war in the horizon, they also don't have many other chances to show their power. In a way, it's the same that has been happening to the Grey Wardens. No Blight? No respect. Before DA:O, the last Blight happened before the Qunari Wars, to the point some people thought of the Qunari as a greater threat than the Darkspawn.

 

Hawke and company, especially the kind/diplomatic Hawke with maximum friendships for companions, is one of the most corrupt actors and forces we see in the city, while Meredith is one of the most strident anti-corruption actors in the setting.

 

Hawke and family head to Kirkwall with the intent of taking refuge in the corruption of the nobility, and it only gets worse from there, especially in 'let's be nice and appreciated' playthroughs. Smugglers, raiders, murderers, thieves, apostate networks: Hawke not only kills them all, Hawke is them all. Your companions only aid and abett you further: Aveline will routinely bend and break rules in yours and the party's favor, Varric is a prefessional agent of corruption, Anders runs a resistence network of sorts, Fenris is basically squating and planing an assassination of a foreign official, Merrill is secretly practicing blood magic and demonology, Isabella is a smuggler and will betray and enable slavers for a boat, and the siblings are their own can of worms. Hawke is routinely engaging or exploiting, even encouraging or relying upon, systemic corruption for personal and party advancement. Rules are for losers, not champions.

 

And this is all portrayed benignly and benevolently, while the force cracking down on corruption the most is regularly villified for doing so.

 

I think it has to do with this fascination about vigilantes that comes from before the super hero comic books, that are the ultimate case of public approved vigilantism. It also relates to the concepts of justice and law. Law is not always just, while justice is not always lawful.

 

In DA:O was more palatable since the Wardens were actually walking with signed contracts that allowed them to take matters into their hands, while at the same time working with the legal representatives of each faction. And if there wasn't one, there were whole quests to find one (A Paragon of Her Kind, The Landsmeet).

 

However, before we start praising Meredith for her lawful attitude, we have to remember one very important thing: she has the same legal standing to 'crack down on corruption' as Hawke, that is, none at all. The only difference is that Hawke is a lone wolf with some friends, while Meredith has an army. That's an appeal to force, not an appeal to law.

 

In fact, had Meredith not stopped the nobles from electing a new Viscount, the game heavily implies that Hawke would have been the chosen one, thus making him the true authority in Kirkwall with the right to do what he does legally, while Meredith couldn't have defended her position without admitting her lack of legitimacy.

 

The Last Straw actually acknowldeges it by having Meredith using the "people will demand blood" argument for the Right of Annulment, a right that has nothing to do with public opinion but public security. That was the defense of someone who has put politics over duties, and Templars aren't supposed to do that.

 

Just like the ME trilogy was a story disturbingly infatuated with the virtues of military authoritarianism, DA2 is a tale with an incredibly soft take on corrupt societies and turns some of the least corrupt people most opposed to the rampant and selfish corruption of Kirkwall into primary antagonists.

 

In a way, they seem polar opposites, don't they? However, many tyrants have used the "fight against corruption" card in order to increase their power. Mussolini and his campaign against the Mafia in Sicily comes to mind.