1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Mage leaders who were voting for a secession, not a war. It wasn't even the first time they tried to do that, and the voting always turned out to be negative. Maybe Justinia was naive for thinking it would happen again (even Wynne was surprised the Libertarians were getting so much support lately), but she had precedents to make an informed decision.

This is a distinction with no difference: everyone is well aware that a vote for secession would lead to a conflict. A unilateral vote for secession is synonymous with a expecting and accepting a war.

 

There would be a relevant distinction if there were a credible reason to expect a different result- say the Circles had negotiated with the Chantry and/or Templars who agreed in advance to respect the outcome. But there was none.

[Mistic]

This is a distinction with no difference: everyone is well aware that a vote for secession would lead to a conflict. A unilateral vote for secession is synonymous with a expecting and accepting a war.

 

There would be a relevant distinction if there were a credible reason to expect a different result- say the Circles had negotiated with the Chantry and/or Templars who agreed in advance to respect the outcome. But there was none.

 

In practical terms, yes, you're right. According to casus belli? No. The mages could always say "we were doing this pacifically and according to the rules, until Templars started attacking us" and they would be right. Ok, they knew they would cause a war, but it's not the same as calling for one.

 

However, the important thing here is the expected outcome. Even after Kirkwall, everyone, except the extremists, expected the vote to be negative. Adrian's ploy was precisely to change that expected outcome. Since there have been previous votings with the same result, a knowledgeable Divine may assume that it was just this stupid thing some Libertarians try to do over and over again, with no result, but letting them vote in vain keeps them happy for a while.

 

In fact, given the precedents, it's understandable for the Divine to be more worried about Templars, after Meredith's trip with red lyrium and the Knight-Commander's treason in Dawn of the Seeker.

[Dean_the_Young]

There are no rules for mage secession, though- the Mages abandoned the pretext of legal perogative when they left the Circle system.

 

The rest of your post needs far more support from the lore to be credible. None of the mage secession votes in Asunder were sanctioned- what do you have to support that they were intended to fail to work against the cause?

[dragonflight288]

There are no rules for mage secession, though- the Mages abandoned the pretext of legal perogative when they left the Circle system.

 

The rest of your post needs far more support from the lore to be credible. None of the mage secession votes in Asunder were sanctioned- what do you have to support that they were intended to fail to work against the cause?

 

It was sanctioned in the end ultimately because the Chantry decided to honor the mages decision to leave and not force a conflict, and Lambert got his knickers in a twist over that decision and declared the Nevarran Accord to be void so he could force the issue anyway. 

[Mistic]

There are no rules for mage secession, though- the Mages abandoned the pretext of legal perogative when they left the Circle system.

 

Isn't that a circular argument? They can only vote to abandon the Circle system before they leave the Circle system, not after, so they can use the "legal prerogative" card until then.

 

The rest of your post needs far more support from the lore to be credible. None of the mage secession votes in Asunder were sanctioned- what do you have to support that they were intended to fail to work against the cause?

 

According to Asunder, the Grand Enchanter has the prerogative to put forward a motion for his or her peers to vote. In the conclave in Cumberland, also mentioned in Awakening, happened the same and there was neither a Templar army to cut them down nor a retaliation from the Chantry just for proposing it. In Evangeline's words: "The conclave has always existed to allow the mages to decide their own path".

 

However, there seems to be a catch to stop the mages for getting dangerous ideas. For what we've seen in Asunder, it's the Divine who can give the mages the right to hold conclave (Fiona: "This is no treason. The Divine gave us leave to hold conclave and you've no right to tell us what we may or may not do with it"). Wynne warns Fiona against derailing the conclave in the White Spire because of that ("If you derail this conclave, Fiona, we'll never get another", followed by Fiona cursing against the Divine).

 

Fiona also uses the expression "our lawful conclave" when facing Lambert.

 

In fact, since Wynne's cameo in Awakening I found strange that the Mages had those prerogatives and could hold such elections. After reading Asunder, though, I think that the rules of the Circles had less to do with Chantry-only law and more with the Nevarran Accord, who Lambert himself mentions as casus belli to break from the Chantry. I hope we know more about how the Circles, the Seekers and the Templars were created in the upcoming DA:I.

[azarhal]

In fact, since Wynne's cameo in Awakening I found strange that the Mages had those prerogatives and could hold such elections. After reading Asunder, though, I think that the rules of the Circles had less to do with Chantry-only law and more with the Nevarran Accord, who Lambert himself mentions as casus belli to break from the Chantry. I hope we know more about how the Circles, the Seekers and the Templars were created in the upcoming DA:I.

 

Gaider answered that in the old forum.

[Mistic]

Gaider answered that in the old forum.

 

Many thanks!   But that only explains how the Circle system expanded, and also answers the question in the thread, "why did the Circles submit to the Chantry?" (answer: because there were no Circles at first). But who came up with the idea of the Circle system to begin with? In the codex entry History of the Circle, Sister Petrine claims it was a nice solution after a mage strike, but Lambert in Asunder and the codex entry The Seekers of Truth imply its real origin lies in the original Inquisition.

 

It was such an interesting age. The Inquisition hunting blood mages, a young Drakon building the Orlesian Empire, the origins of the Chantry, the Circles, the Templars and the Seekers, the elves trying to rebuild their civilization in the Dales, Tevinter purging the Old God remnants, and then the Second Blight. I'm going to be very disappointed if there isn't a good deal of codex entries about those times.

 

Now I can really picture a meeting between Divine Justinia and the Inquisitor with the former explaining the later how the Chantry came to be and the role of the Inquisition in it. "If you want to use that name, you first have to know all that it means".

[LobselVith8]

Many thanks!   But that only explains how the Circle system expanded, and also answers the question in the thread, "why did the Circles submit to the Chantry?" (answer: because there were no Circles at first). But who came up with the idea of the Circle system to begin with? In the codex entry History of the Circle, Sister Petrine claims it was a nice solution after a mage strike, but Lambert in Asunder and the codex entry The Seekers of Truth imply its real origin lies in the original Inquisition.

 

I think that historical account was the inception to the Circle Towers (given how peaceful protest against their lack of rights lead to the mages being segregated from the rest of society), as opposed to the Circles of Magi.

 

It was such an interesting age. The Inquisition hunting blood mages, a young Drakon building the Orlesian Empire, the origins of the Chantry, the Circles, the Templars and the Seekers, the elves trying to rebuild their civilization in the Dales, Tevinter purging the Old God remnants, and then the Second Blight. I'm going to be very disappointed if there isn't a good deal of codex entries about those times.

 

Now I can really picture a meeting between Divine Justinia and the Inquisitor with the former explaining the later how the Chantry came to be and the role of the Inquisition in it. "If you want to use that name, you first have to know all that it means".

 

It was an interesting time, indeed.

 

I think any relationship the Inquisitor has with the Chantry would be optional, given the repeated emphasis on the player dictating who the Inquisition will ally with, and what kind of organization it will be.

[Mistic]

I think that historical account was the inception to the Circle Towers (given how peaceful protest against their lack of rights lead to the mages being segregated from the rest of society), as opposed to the Circles of Magi.

 

Interesting perspective. I'm rereading Petrine's entry. Petrine says "Outside of normal society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history". It's the only time the word "Circle" is mentioned and it does allow for the interpretation that the event was about Circles living apart for the first time, not being created.

 

I think any relationship the Inquisitor has with the Chantry would be optional, given the repeated emphasis on the player dictating who the Inquisition will ally with, and what kind of organization it will be.

 

I disagree. I think that alliances will be optional, not relationships. Even the most pro-Templar and Chantry-fanatic Warden had to deal with Flemeth, having her save them and listen to her speeches, so I can see the same happening with the Divine and a nice chat at Val Royeaux.

 

Of course, I'm sure you will remind me that in the end the Warden could "kill" Flemeth, so the same could happen to the Divine too

[Dean_the_Young]

Isn't that a circular argument? They can only vote to abandon the Circle system before they leave the Circle system, not after, so they can use the "legal prerogative" card until then.

 

 

Not really- secession can be a prerogative of a system and agreed upon/allowed before the secession vote occurs. Canada and the United Kingdom are two examples of this in practice, in which subordinate regions have been granted the right to vote on their secession. There's no indication the mages have ever had that right.

 

 

 

 

 

According to Asunder, the Grand Enchanter has the prerogative to put forward a motion for his or her peers to vote. In the conclave in Cumberland, also mentioned in Awakening, happened the same and there was neither a Templar army to cut them down nor a retaliation from the Chantry just for proposing it. In Evangeline's words: "The conclave has always existed to allow the mages to decide their own path".

 

 

Ignoring the credibility of the source, there's a practical reason for this: the Templars and Chantry don't punish people for wanting to escape the system. That's a different issue from actually attempting to escape the system.

 

 

However, there seems to be a catch to stop the mages for getting dangerous ideas. For what we've seen in Asunder, it's the Divine who can give the mages the right to hold conclave (Fiona: "This is no treason. The Divine gave us leave to hold conclave and you've no right to tell us what we may or may not do with it"). Wynne warns Fiona against derailing the conclave in the White Spire because of that ("If you derail this conclave, Fiona, we'll never get another", followed by Fiona cursing against the Divine).

 

Fiona also uses the expression "our lawful conclave" when facing Lambert.

 

In fact, since Wynne's cameo in Awakening I found strange that the Mages had those prerogatives and could hold such elections. After reading Asunder, though, I think that the rules of the Circles had less to do with Chantry-only law and more with the Nevarran Accord, who Lambert himself mentions as casus belli to break from the Chantry. I hope we know more about how the Circles, the Seekers and the Templars were created in the upcoming DA:I.

 

 

There's also the point that Fiona was hardly being an impartial actor here- she was pushing an agenda contrary to what the purpose of the Conclave actually was to be. I'd accept her claim that there are no limits on the Conclave about as much as I'd believe her claims on being impartial on the subject of mage revolt.

 

 

It was sanctioned in the end ultimately because the Chantry decided to honor the mages decision to leave and not force a conflict, and Lambert got his knickers in a twist over that decision and declared the Nevarran Accord to be void so he could force the issue anyway. 

 

Not enforcing a law isn't the same as a legal sanction, as you should be well aware. The Chantry not putting up a fight has nothing to do with the legality- it just means the mages would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those nosy Templars.

 

But, as in most conflicts, legality has nothing to do with it. If reputable scholars conclusively decided that the mages were legally wrong and had no right to do what they did, they would still do it anyway- they're pursuing goals, not laws that might get in the way.

[Mistic]

Not really- secession can be a prerogative of a system and agreed upon/allowed before the secession vote occurs. Canada and the United Kingdom are two examples of this in practice, in which subordinate regions have been granted the right to vote on their secession. There's no indication the mages have ever had that right.

 

No, no, I agree with that. It's just that the wording you used before made me think you were talking about another thing.

 

But who says the mages don't have that right? You're assuming that the law governing the Circles came from the Chantry, but what if it came from the Nevarran Accord? Lambert uses the violation of the Nevarran Accord as a rightful casus belli to secede from the Chantry, so there are in fact sources of law in Thedas that precede the Chantry's canon law.

 

Ignoring the credibility of the source, there's a practical reason for this: the Templars and Chantry don't punish people for wanting to escape the system. That's a different issue from actually attempting to escape the system.

 

Then, why not assume the same scenario in Asunder? Before Lambert started cracking down on them, it was a mere wish of the Grand Enchanter, not a real attempt. Only if the voting had been favorable could we start talking about "Traitors! Seccession!"

 

There's also the point that Fiona was hardly being an impartial actor here- she was pushing an agenda contrary to what the purpose of the Conclave actually was to be. I'd accept her claim that there are no limits on the Conclave about as much as I'd believe her claims on being impartial on the subject of mage revolt.

 

She's as hypocrite as Lambert, that's for sure. The Divine gave leave to celebrate the conclave on the condition that they would speak about the cure for Tranquility, nothing more, nothing less. Last time a Libertarian tried to do the same, the Divine took years to allow another conclave.

 

Not enforcing a law isn't the same as a legal sanction, as you should be well aware. The Chantry not putting up a fight has nothing to do with the legality- it just means the mages would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those nosy Templars.

 

But, as in most conflicts, legality has nothing to do with it. If reputable scholars conclusively decided that the mages were legally wrong and had no right to do what they did, they would still do it anyway- they're pursuing goals, not laws that might get in the way.

 

In the end, law is the rule that can be defended by force. Scholars will write what the victor says, and will use beautiful words to do so. That's a rule in Thedas and in real life. After all, nobody cares nowadays that the American Revolution was an unlawful act of unilateral secession, do they?

[Rinshikai10]

An opinions about Justinia from The Masked Empire teaser?

[Mistic]

An opinions about Justinia from The Masked Empire teaser?

 

According to the preview, the Divine was being pressured by the Orlesian Empress to find a peaceful solution to the Mage-Templar tensions. If not, the empire was going to intervene. The ball at the beginning of Asunder was actually Celene's idea, but then the assassination attempt derailed it.

 

That means it wasn't just a choice between mages or templars. It was a choice between calming them or having the empire take care of things, with the prospect of legions of chevaliers marching to the Circles and putting both mages and templars to the sword.

 

We don't know if Justinia will appear in the book, though. The poor woman has already got too many problems to deal with

[Rinshikai10]

@Misticsan

 

I remember reading that bit from the discussion Celene had with Leliana. It almost sounds like Justinia was waiting for the perfect time to reveal her Tranquil research, and was not capable of adapting to the ever changing situation. I'm starting to see Leliana becoming very defensive about Justinia, maybe we will see more of this when Inquisition comes out. 

 

It's starting to sound like Justinia does share some of Elthina tendencies, when dealing with problems. 

 

I'm having a hard time seeing Celene killing the Templars as well as the Mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I told you

 

@Misticsan

 

I remember reading that bit from the discussion Celene had with Leliana. It almost sounds like Justinia was waiting for the perfect time to reveal her Tranquil research, and was not capable of adapting to the ever changing situation. I'm starting to see Leliana becoming very defensive about Justinia, maybe we will see more of this when Inquisition comes out. 

 

It's starting to sound like Justinia does share some of Elthina tendencies, when dealing with problems. 

 

I'm having a hard time seeing Celene killing the Templars as well as the Mages.

Well it turned as i said

[Mistic]

@Misticsan

 

I remember reading that bit from the discussion Celene had with Leliana. It almost sounds like Justinia was waiting for the perfect time to reveal her Tranquil research, and was not capable of adapting to the ever changing situation. I'm starting to see Leliana becoming very defensive about Justinia, maybe we will see more of this when Inquisition comes out. 

 

It's starting to sound like Justinia does share some of Elthina tendencies, when dealing with problems.

 

Agreed. It's lampshaded by Celene herself: "If Dorothea proposes to do nothing to unite the templars and the mages, she is following in the footsteps of Grand Cleric Elthina, who waited and prayed while Kirkwall tore itself apart". Of course, by the time the Divine tried to do something, it was already too late.

 

And yes, Leliana is always very defensive of the people she appreciates. The same happened with Marjolaine in Leliana's Song, and it was a very bad call. Wonder what will happen if you mention the Warden and Leliana was his/her friend or lover.

 

I'm having a hard time seeing Celene killing the Templars as well as the Mages.

 

Celene seems to have a hard time imagining herself doing that, but it's clear that the Empress and Gaspard will put Orlais first. I can't blame them for that, given how unreasonable mages and templars have become. Those two factions are so blinded against each other that they can't see the danger of pissing off not the Chantry, but the countries they live in and that won't be too keen on having superpowered individuals waging war in their territories.

[wcholcombe]

According to the preview, the Divine was being pressured by the Orlesian Empress to find a peaceful solution to the Mage-Templar tensions. If not, the empire was going to intervene. The ball at the beginning of Asunder was actually Celene's idea, but then the assassination attempt derailed it.

 

That means it wasn't just a choice between mages or templars. It was a choice between calming them or having the empire take care of things, with the prospect of legions of chevaliers marching to the Circles and putting both mages and templars to the sword.

 

We don't know if Justinia will appear in the book, though. The poor woman has already got too many problems to deal with

I don't know that that is entirely accurate of the book.  Justina was already seeking to deal with the issues, Celene was just letting her know where the situation stood.  The banquet was Celene's idea sure, but I don't necessarily think that means that we can assume Justina wasn't already acting to try and handle the situation.  In fact, we know she was already taking steps by the fact that Pharamond had been at his research for a while prior to all this.  We don't know how long, we know this wasn't Wynne's first trip to Adamant with him there, but you can hardly accuse Justina of sitting and twiddling her thumbs and not doing anything.

 

What I actually found more interesting there, is the distinct possibility that Celene and Justina may have an older connection to each other than we realize given the fact that Justina was a bard, Celene was trained as a bard, and Celene had no issue referring to Justina as Dorothea, awfully familiar reference.

 

Anyway, again, I think Justina will surprise some of you with her abilities and her long term goals. Provided at least she isn't killed in the opening prologue of DAI.

 

Edit: Actually we do know how long Pharamond was at his work-5 years. So Justinia has been proactive in Mage issues.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't know that that is entirely accurate of the book.  Justina was already seeking to deal with the issues, Celene was just letting her know where the situation stood.  The banquet was Celene's idea sure, but I don't necessarily think that means that we can assume Justina wasn't already acting to try and handle the situation.  In fact, we know she was already taking steps by the fact that Pharamond had been at his research for a while prior to all this.  We don't know how long, we know this wasn't Wynne's first trip to Adamant with him there, but you can hardly accuse Justina of sitting and twiddling her thumbs and not doing anything.

 

What I actually found more interesting there, is the distinct possibility that Celene and Justina may have an older connection to each other than we realize given the fact that Justina was a bard, Celene was trained as a bard, and Celene had no issue referring to Justina as Dorothea, awfully familiar reference.

 

Anyway, again, I think Justina will surprise some of you with her abilities and her long term goals. Provided at least she isn't killed in the opening prologue of DAI.

 

Edit: Actually we do know how long Pharamond was at his work-5 years. So Justinia has been proactive in Mage issues.

 

Yeah if her long-term plan wasn't start world war and destroy world im not impressed with her she screwd every thing she could to screw and as elthina she was waiting and praying for maker solve her problems she did very little and when she did something it was something that pissed off one side and she did it with 2 sides.Pretty much celene gloriously summed up her as i did before here.She is like morrigan wrong painted character when morrigan supposed to be pragmatic finally came as stupid evil when divine was supposed to be chessmaster she ended as  chessmaster wannabe that failed in everything she could.Do i have mention that she was ultimately one who lead to war that she had to stop.   

 

[wcholcombe]

Yeah if her long-term plan wasn't start world war and destroy world im not impressed with her she screwd every thing she could to screw and as elthina she was waiting and praying for maker solve her problems she did very little and when she did something it was something that pissed off one side and she did it with 2 sides.Pretty much celene gloriously summed up her as i did before here.She is like morrigan wrong painted character when morrigan supposed to be pragmatic finally came as stupid evil when divine was supposed to be chessmaster she ended as  chessmaster wannabe that failed in everything she could.Do i have mention that she was ultimately one who lead to war that she had to stop.   

 

TKS, we won't agree, but if Lambert is still alive, I personally predict that Justinia will in the end be standing over him and his hardliner templars corpse when all is said and done.  Reform will occur, the circles will be reformed, and Justinia will be hailed as one of the greatest Divine's in history.

 

In short, she is playing a much longer game than the events of Asunder.

 

Of course, she could also die in the prologue.

[TheKomandorShepard]

TKS, we won't agree, but if Lambert is still alive, I personally predict that Justinia will in the end be standing over him and his hardliner templars corpse when all is said and done.  Reform will occur, the circles will be reformed, and Justinia will be hailed as one of the greatest Divine's in history.

 

In short, she is playing a much longer game than the events of Asunder.

 

Of course, she could also die in the prologue.

 

Not rly not without inquisitor (someone competent who will actually solve things) and i doubt that supporting her is enforced for now she is desperately seeks for someone who will clean mess she did so hardly chessmaster instead foolish woman and incompetent person. 

 

so no it isn't bigger scheme when she is super genius like aizen or madara...

 

Simple waiting for someone competent to clean mess you did doesn't make you competent.

 

pretty much she reminds me lord british

[Mistic]

I don't know that that is entirely accurate of the book.  Justina was already seeking to deal with the issues, Celene was just letting her know where the situation stood.  The banquet was Celene's idea sure, but I don't necessarily think that means that we can assume Justina wasn't already acting to try and handle the situation.  In fact, we know she was already taking steps by the fact that Pharamond had been at his research for a while prior to all this.  We don't know how long, we know this wasn't Wynne's first trip to Adamant with him there, but you can hardly accuse Justina of sitting and twiddling her thumbs and not doing anything.

 

That's more or less what Leliana said, stating that quick decisions are left for a war, not for normal politics. But Celene answers (and I give her the reason) that they are always at war, in one way or another. The fact is that even if the Divine had already been planning a solution for some years now, she was too slow in her reaction. Lambert, Fiona, Celene and Gaspard had been much, much faster.

 

What I actually found more interesting there, is the distinct possibility that Celene and Justina may have an older connection to each other than we realize given the fact that Justina was a bard, Celene was trained as a bard, and Celene had no issue referring to Justina as Dorothea, awfully familiar reference.

 

Yes, that's interesting. I hope we'll know more about Dorothea's past in the upcoming game.

 

Do i have mention that she was ultimately one who lead to war that she had to stop.   

 

I always thought it was Lambert when he defied the Divine's orders again.

[wcholcombe]

That's more or less what Leliana said, stating that quick decisions are left for a war, not for normal politics. But Celene answers (and I give her the reason) that they are always at war, in one way or another. The fact is that even if the Divine had already been planning a solution for some years now, she was too slow in her reaction. Lambert, Fiona, Celene and Gaspard had been much, much faster.

 

 

Yes, that's interesting. I hope we'll know more about Dorothea's past in the upcoming game.

 

 

I always thought it was Lambert when he defied the Divine's orders again.

You do realize that Masked Empire starts before Asunder?  Reforming and addressing the issues of a 900 year old institution takes time.  At this point the main issue was just that apostates were fleeing the towers at increased numbers, the templars were cracking down, and Kirkwall had occurred. There was not yet an open rebellion.

 

As for starting the war, TKS will disagree, but you could blame Lambert, Fiona, or Adrian for the war happening.

 

1) Lambert for marching into the conclave and demanding they cease the vote and surrender Rhys.

2) Fiona for calling for the vote in the 1st place.

3) Adrian for setting up Rhys and sparking the issue.

 

TKS will argue that it was because the Divine distracted Lambert and allowed the mages to flee.  Personally by that point the cat was out of the bag, the circles weren't going to stand for all of their 1st enchanters being arrested and in at least one case killed while surrendering-not with the state of things, and I believe Justinia had decided that forcing the issue was the best way to get it resolved. 

[Sir JK]

TKS will argue that it was because the Divine distracted Lambert and allowed the mages to flee.  Personally by that point the cat was out of the bag, the circles weren't going to stand for all of their 1st enchanters being arrested and in at least one case killed while surrendering-not with the state of things, and I believe Justinia had decided that forcing the issue was the best way to get it resolved. 

 

Indeed. Nothing would have put circles "back into their restive state" following Wynne's "broadcast". Arresting all the First enchanters was a completely idiotic move because it would all but guarantee that every single circle would rise up. Lambert could probably annull one of them, but all of them at the same time? Not a chance. Similarily, not calling the conclave after that broadcast would only have undermined the Divine's authority in the circle, quite possibly led to rebellion as well. Not pursuing the research in the first place would not have changed anything.

 

Really... the mage rebellion has been an unstoppable avalance that started well over a hundred years ago. Justinia didn't start it. Lambert didn't start it. Adrian and Fiona didn't start it. Wynne didn't start it. Not even Anders started it (he just made people notice it was coming). When the story begins in DAO, it was more or less inevitable we'd reach this point.

[wcholcombe]

Indeed. Nothing would have put circles "back into their restive state" following Wynne's "broadcast". Arresting all the First enchanters was a completely idiotic move because it would all but guarantee that every single circle would rise up. Lambert could probably annull one of them, but all of them at the same time? Not a chance. Similarily, not calling the conclave after that broadcast would only have undermined the Divine's authority in the circle, quite possibly led to rebellion as well. Not pursuing the research in the first place would not have changed anything.

 

Really... the mage rebellion has been an unstoppable avalance that started well over a hundred years ago. Justinia didn't start it. Lambert didn't start it. Adrian and Fiona didn't start it. Wynne didn't start it. Not even Anders started it (he just made people notice it was coming). When the story begins in DAO, it was more or less inevitable we'd reach this point.

I disagree that it is unavoidable, except for with the writing of bioware for DA2.  And where do you get the more then 100 years ago?

 

This was a process that had reasons for occurring:

1) The issues at kirkwall-Meredith, Anders, Bloodmages, abusive templars,etc.  You remedy a few of these issues and DA2 doesn't occur and Asunder doesn't occur.

2) Hardliner templars getting in positions of leadership

3) Justinia's predecessor being an old emfeebled woman who was afraid of her own shadow

4) The Seekers being asleep at the wheel regarding kirkwall and templar abuses

5) Lambert being the one to take over at the White Spire.

6) Adrian's plots and machinations

7) Fiona's thumbing her nose at all logic about the state of events and demanding the vote when she did

8) Radical elements gaining power in the mage fraternaties

 

Look, you can agree or disagree with what the above individuals did and the events that occurred, but I refuse to believe that the mage war was inevitable.

 

Heck, even in Asunder, if certain people had chosen to play ball, the mages would have had their conclave about tranquility. Would have come to a conclusion, and reforms would have started while tempers and issues calmed down. But no, that couldn't be allowed to happen.

 

Even if the hard line templars had refused to go along with it, as we have seen in ME preview, Celene would have had no issue using Orlesian forces to back Justinia against rogue templars refusing to follow orders of the Divine. And guess what, there are a lot more Chevaliers and soldiers then there are Templars.

[Sir JK]

I disagree that it is unavoidable, except for with the writing of bioware for DA2.  And where do you get the more then 100 years ago?

 

This was a process that had reasons for occurring:

1) The issues at kirkwall-Meredith, Anders, Bloodmages, abusive templars,etc.  You remedy a few of these issues and DA2 doesn't occur and Asunder doesn't occur.

2) Hardliner templars getting in positions of leadership

3) Justinia's predecessor being an old emfeebled woman who was afraid of her own shadow

4) The Seekers being asleep at the wheel regarding kirkwall and templar abuses

5) Lambert being the one to take over at the White Spire.

6) Adrian's plots and machinations

7) Fiona's thumbing her nose at all logic about the state of events and demanding the vote when she did

8) Radical elements gaining power in the mage fraternaties

 

Look, you can agree or disagree with what the above individuals did and the events that occurred, but I refuse to believe that the mage war was inevitable.

 

Heck, even in Asunder, if certain people had chosen to play ball, the mages would have had their conclave about tranquility. Would have come to a conclusion, and reforms would have started while tempers and issues calmed down. But no, that couldn't be allowed to happen.

 

Even if the hard line templars had refused to go along with it, as we have seen in ME preview, Celene would have had no issue using Orlesian forces to back Justinia against rogue templars refusing to follow orders of the Divine. And guess what, there are a lot more Chevaliers and soldiers then there are Templars.

 

I have intentionally tried not to read the ME preview as I don't want to read snippets of it before I get my hands on the book proper. So I cannot debate there.

 

But what I meant with it being unstoppable is that given the people involved and how it has run thus far it was not going to stop. Even if certain people were replaced, that'd be more akin to a security valve rather than getting the pressure to drop. All the things you mention played part yes. All made sure it happened in 9:40, as opposed to say... 9:60 or 10:25. But short of sweeping reform, the circles were going to explode sooner or later.

 

The reason I said it went back well beyond 100 years is that it probably does. Beatrix was chosen 75 years prior, and her long life played part. That's the earliest point one can directly point at. But really, I'm sure the doom of the circles was more or less set into motion when the Rights of Annulment was instituted. Everything else is just symtom. It could have been avoided many times and probably was, but the key bit being that at least since the beginning of the dragon age... it wasn't.