1605 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

I have intentionally tried not to read the ME preview as I don't want to read snippets of it before I get my hands on the book proper. So I cannot debate there.

 

But what I meant with it being unstoppable is that given the people involved and how it has run thus far it was not going to stop. Even if certain people were replaced, that'd be more akin to a security valve rather than getting the pressure to drop. All the things you mention played part yes. All made sure it happened in 9:40, as opposed to say... 9:60 or 10:25. But short of sweeping reform, the circles were going to explode sooner or later.

 

The reason I said it went back well beyond 100 years is that it probably does. Beatrix was chosen 75 years prior, and her long life played part. That's the earliest point one can directly point at. But really, I'm sure the doom of the circles was more or less set into motion when the Rights of Annulment was instituted. Everything else is just symtom. It could have been avoided many times and probably was, but the key bit being that at least since the beginning of the dragon age... it wasn't.

I disagree, mages are no more equipped to rebel now then they ever were, in fact arguably they are in a worse position to rebel now.  If it had been a long standing problem there were many times in the past they could have rebelled.  Personally, if there was a driving need for it, I would have chosen during one of the divine marches against the Qunari or Tevinter.

 

Sorry I just reject the idea that the rebellion has been some unavoidable certainty that is going to occur.

 

Heck, as I said if the mages had cooperated with Justinia it very likely wouldn't have happened period.

 

The templars may have rebelled, but then the mages would have had the moral high ground as the templars were directly opposing the will of the Divine.

[EmissaryofLies]

The templars are still opposing the will of the Divine and she can sell it as a betrayal if need be. 

 

Suppose it's too much to ask for the Chantry and Templars to simply murder each other. 

[dragonflight288]

The templars are still opposing the will of the Divine and she can sell it as a betrayal if need be. 

 

Suppose it's too much to ask for the Chantry and Templars to simply murder each other. 

 

 

Not going to happen. At least, not instantly.

 

Besides, any templar that left the Chantry are now rogue agents. They have no political or religious organization backing them. Say you get some periferal support from a bann or arl or something, but without backing from the international chantry or the monarchs of individual countries, they really are nothing more than mercenaries or armed rogues. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Not going to happen. At least, not instantly.

 

Besides, any templar that left the Chantry are now rogue agents. They have no political or religious organization backing them. Say you get some periferal support from a bann or arl or something, but without backing from the international chantry or the monarchs of individual countries, they really are nothing more than mercenaries or armed rogues. 

 

That post is made in jest, dragon. I happen to agree. A man can dream though. 

[wcholcombe]

The templars are still opposing the will of the Divine and she can sell it as a betrayal if need be. 

 

Suppose it's too much to ask for the Chantry and Templars to simply murder each other. 

Yes, but now the mages are also seen as opposing the divine and if the mages had played it right, they would be in possession of the towers and lambert and such would be decorating the tops of orlesian pikes.  As it is, a great many mages will be killed in the process of killing a great many templars and it will be far more difficult for the divine to support one side over the other as they are both rebelling.

 

Considering the Divine is supporting the Mages, why exactly would you consider this a good thing?

 

The rogue templars will be ground to dust and the chantry will still be standing.

[dragonflight288]

That post is made in jest, dragon. I happen to agree. A man can dream though. 

 

True, but it does raise a fair question.

 

Without the chantry or any individual countries support, what gives the templars who left the Chantry any level of legitimacy to do a mage hunt?

[Sir JK]

Heck, as I said if the mages had cooperated with Justinia it very likely wouldn't have happened period.

 

I guess what I am trying to say that this thing you suggest didn't happened because things were so set in stone as they was

 

Mind... I am not trying to say it was destiny for the mages to rebel the time they did. It was momentum.

 

Could this rebellion have been avoided? Yes. But it didn't come to be because everyone involved (or just one of them) wanted to rebel now. It came to be because things had escalated and now the kettle had reached the boiling point (most likely not for the first time either).

[wcholcombe]

True, but it does raise a fair question.

 

Without the chantry or any individual countries support, what gives the templars who left the Chantry any level of legitimacy to do a mage hunt?

Most likely the outright fear said countries still have of the mages.

 

This is something that I hope is demonstrated in DAI, it isn't just the chantry that has made mages a source of fear. Superstitious uneducated people have a strong fear of things they don't understand.

[Sir JK]

True, but it does raise a fair question.

 

Without the chantry or any individual countries support, what gives the templars who left the Chantry any level of legitimacy to do a mage hunt?

 

Now I think you understimate the templars. Their legitimacy comes from tradition and from conservative value. It comes from family and friends in the nobility (like Bann Alfstanna in Ferelden). It comes from having an army at their disposal and a thousand years of keeping the peace.

 

The Divine might hold the de jure authority over the chantry. But not everyone will like the modern wind with shich she steers her ship. Some will plain like Lambert (or whomever) better.

[wcholcombe]

Now I think you understimate the templars. Their legitimacy comes from tradition and from conservative value. It comes from family and friends in the nobility (like Bann Alfstanna in Ferelden). It comes from having an army at their disposal and a thousand years of keeping the peace.

 

The Divine might hold the de jure authority over the chantry. But not everyone will like the modern wind with shich she steers her ship. Some will plain like Lambert (or whomever) better.

Some will like and agree with Lambert. The majority would if put in the position of choosing between Divine and Templar choose Divine, however that isn't the choice as the mages have seen fit to make themselves just as big of a group of rebels as the templars are so the Divine at this point can't choose a side to support as neither side is cooperating.

[Sir JK]

Some will like and agree with Lambert. The majority would if put in the position of choosing between Divine and Templar choose Divine, however that isn't the choice as the mages have seen fit to make themselves just as big of a group of rebels as the templars are so the Divine at this point can't choose a side to support as neither side is cooperating.

 

I'm fairly certain that most people actually would choose neither. They'll stay out until one side seems to be winning... then they'll choose that one. The ones that are likely to choose a side probably already has.

[EmissaryofLies]

True, but it does raise a fair question.

 

Without the chantry or any individual countries support, what gives the templars who left the Chantry any level of legitimacy to do a mage hunt?

 

Suppose it depends on which groups in power happen to hate mages the most or have taken to drinking the Chantry's koolaid. 

 

As it stands now, Thedas will still see them as their saviors, at least right out of the gate. As the game progresses it will likely change depending upon mage and red templar actions. 

[dragonflight288]

Now I think you understimate the templars. Their legitimacy comes from tradition and from conservative value. It comes from family and friends in the nobility (like Bann Alfstanna in Ferelden). It comes from having an army at their disposal and a thousand years of keeping the peace.

 

The Divine might hold the de jure authority over the chantry. But not everyone will like the modern wind with shich she steers her ship. Some will plain like Lambert (or whomever) better.

 

In the traditionalist view, certainly, but unless those same templars get supplies of lyrium, food, ways to maintain their arms and armor, or some sort of sponsor, they really are nothing more than an army without a master or a general. And when the soldiers start suffering lyrium withdrawal, hunger pangs, when their equipment needs to be repaired or replaced, what then? Do they go back to the Chantry and live within the Chantry's rules even if they disagree?

 

No, they left the chantry over an ideology difference on whether mages had the right to vote to leave, or if they should be stripped of those rights, and I say it this way because the Chantry decided to respect the mages decision to leave, and Lambert and the templars decided they'd rather leave the Chantry than allow that to happen. So that means they need monetary support from banns, arls, Viscounts and monarchs. Without that, in order to complete the mission they set for themselves, they would have no choice but to resort to banditry, raiding, and ultimately be no better than your common bandit or thug. 

 

Do this enough times, and they would lose any public support generated by years of tradition. They already are losing support because they aren't seen as defenders so much anymore, and if they raid villages and murder every man, woman and child like they did at PAX (and this was supposedly in opposition to the inquisition setting up shop there according to the devs) and they will be just as feared as mages. 

 

The moment they resort to banditry, pillaging or so forth, like they did in PAX, they lose any supposed moral high ground they held. Templars exist to protect the world from mages and mages from the world. If they need to slaughter non-mages just to oppose mages, they then have absolutely no room to contend that they are actually defending people and fulfilling the calling templars supposedly accomplish. 

 

Therefore, in my view, they lose any credibility as an organization if that's what they'll stoop to. If it's just Red Templars and regular templars decide to stay within the Chantry or whatever, that's a completely different thing. I suppose my point is that it won't take that much for the templars who left the chantry to pretty much prove themselves no better than even the worst of mages. 

[Sir JK]

In the traditionalist view, certainly, but unless those same templars get supplies of lyrium, food, ways to maintain their arms and armor, or some sort of sponsor, they really are nothing more than an army without a master or a general. And when the soldiers start suffering lyrium withdrawal, hunger pangs, when their equipment needs to be repaired or replaced, what then? Do they go back to the Chantry and live within the Chantry's rules even if they disagree?

 

No, they left the chantry over an ideology difference on whether mages had the right to vote to leave, or if they should be stripped of those rights, and I say it this way because the Chantry decided to respect the mages decision to leave, and Lambert and the templars decided they'd rather leave the Chantry than allow that to happen. So that means they need monetary support from banns, arls, Viscounts and monarchs. Without that, in order to complete the mission they set for themselves, they would have no choice but to resort to banditry, raiding, and ultimately be no better than your common bandit or thug. 

 

Do this enough times, and they would lose any public support generated by years of tradition. They already are losing support because they aren't seen as defenders so much anymore, and if they raid villages and murder every man, woman and child like they did at PAX (and this was supposedly in opposition to the inquisition setting up shop there according to the devs) and they will be just as feared as mages. 

 

The moment they resort to banditry, pillaging or so forth, like they did in PAX, they lose any supposed moral high ground they held. Templars exist to protect the world from mages and mages from the world. If they need to slaughter non-mages just to oppose mages, they then have absolutely no room to contend that they are actually defending people and fulfilling the calling templars supposedly accomplish. 

 

Therefore, in my view, they lose any credibility as an organization if that's what they'll stoop to. If it's just Red Templars and regular templars decide to stay within the Chantry or whatever, that's a completely different thing. I suppose my point is that it won't take that much for the templars who left the chantry to pretty much prove themselves no better than even the worst of mages. 

 

Absolutely. There's a million ways or more then can absolutely ruin their reputation (same applies to the mages mind). In all likelyhood they probably will.

 

Though I'm fairly certain that they control the Lyrium infrastructure the Chantry previously held (they were the armed branch after all... who else would have protected the shipments?). The only thing the Chantry can do is withhold payment... which means both Orzammar and Kal Sharok will be forced to look for new customers.

 

Things are going to suck for the surface dwarves

[wcholcombe]

I'm fairly certain that most people actually would choose neither. They'll stay out until one side seems to be winning... then they'll choose that one. The ones that are likely to choose a side probably already has.

Yes, because they are currently choosing between two rogue groups opposing the Chantry.

 

If you are meaning between the chantry and the templars you are kidding yourself.  To most of Thedas the Templars are under the Chantry and in service to the Divine.  Them rebelling against the spiritual leader of the most dominant religion on Thedas wouldn't go well for them.  But as it is currently a debate between the rebelling Templars and the rebelling mages, I think the templars will get support, I don't see the mages getting much.

[EmissaryofLies]

The templars' position in the war almost solely depends upon how the Chantry chooses to react to their disobedience. 

 

They'll get their support from somewhere, I'm sure. The point of the matter being that it won't be nearly as strong as the Chantry's. 

[Mistic]

This was a process that had reasons for occurring:

1) The issues at kirkwall-Meredith, Anders, Bloodmages, abusive templars,etc.  You remedy a few of these issues and DA2 doesn't occur and Asunder doesn't occur.

2) Hardliner templars getting in positions of leadership

3) Justinia's predecessor being an old emfeebled woman who was afraid of her own shadow

4) The Seekers being asleep at the wheel regarding kirkwall and templar abuses

5) Lambert being the one to take over at the White Spire.

6) Adrian's plots and machinations

7) Fiona's thumbing her nose at all logic about the state of events and demanding the vote when she did

8) Radical elements gaining power in the mage fraternaties

 

That is a very nice analysis of the steps that have leaded to the current situation. I still believe there's some kind of conspiration, according to the promotional material, so 2, 4, 5 (as the result of 2) and 8 can have been caused by manipulative elements.

 

Still, it wasn't unavoidable per se, but some people, willing or not, took every decision possible to make it so.

 

The moment they resort to banditry, pillaging or so forth, like they did in PAX, they lose any supposed moral high ground they held. Templars exist to protect the world from mages and mages from the world. If they need to slaughter non-mages just to oppose mages, they then have absolutely no room to contend that they are actually defending people and fulfilling the calling templars supposedly accomplish. 

 

What you are referring to is popular support. That can be a source of legitimacy, but it's not the only one.

 

Your question was: "Without the chantry or any individual countries support, what gives the templars who left the Chantry any level of legitimacy to do a mage hunt?". According to Lambert himself in the epilogue of Asunder, there are two sources of legitimacy:

 

-God. "Where even the Chantry had failed, the Seekers of Truth would stand triumphant in the eyes of the Maker". The Chantry is not fit to do the Maker's will. Rememeber, those who think god is on their side don't tend to doubt that their cause is just.

-Law. According to him, the Chantry broke the Nevarran Accord, so neither Seekers nor Templars feel obligated to serve the Divine. They probably consider themselves the heirs of the old Inquisition, an organization that predates the Chantry by 100 years.

 

Of course, the new Inquisition is going to appear and point 2 is going to become a problem.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm still banking on the Chantry being in Shism as of DAI, Petrice's words would be so fitting, given the differing approaches and views of the various Mothers, Clerics and what have you, I can see the Divine maintaining some of her support, but she wasn't overly popular with either the Templars nor the Clerics according to some speculation gleaned in Asunder.

 

And that would effectively split the Chantry response to the loss of the Templars, you could in some instances see the Seperation conveyed as a Negative, While having another branch state that they are doing the Maker's Will, i can see how the division within the Church could effect their message regionally and that's what matters in this conflict, unless if my mage stratagem for the Templars War Plan actually sees the light of day, but...That would actually require Bioware implementing real military mindscape to their battles, and thus far they haven't done so.

[Hellion Rex]

I'm still banking on the Chantry being in Shism as of DAI, Petrice's words would be so fitting, given the differing approaches and views of the various Mothers, Clerics and what have you, I can see the Divine maintaining some of her support, but she wasn't overly popular with either the Templars nor the Clerics according to some speculation gleaned in Asunder.

 

And that would effectively split the Chantry response to the loss of the Templars, you could in some instances see the Seperation conveyed as a Negative, While having another branch state that they are doing the Maker's Will, i can see how the division within the Church could effect their message regionally and that's what matters in this conflict, unless if my mage stratagem for the Templars War Plan actually sees the light of day, but...That would actually require Bioware implementing real military mindscape to their battles, and thus far they haven't done so.

We do not speak that creature's name!

[Sir JK]

Yes, because they are currently choosing between two rogue groups opposing the Chantry.

 

If you are meaning between the chantry and the templars you are kidding yourself.  To most of Thedas the Templars are under the Chantry and in service to the Divine.  Them rebelling against the spiritual leader of the most dominant religion on Thedas wouldn't go well for them.  But as it is currently a debate between the rebelling Templars and the rebelling mages, I think the templars will get support, I don't see the mages getting much.

 

Yes, that's the argument in favour of the Divine. She has moral and legal legitimacy here. They rebelled against her orders. She let the mages go, they refused to comply.

 

But power isn't that easy. What if the templars start winning? What if they force her on the run? What if she dies and one of her enemies and a supporter of the templars is voted into office? All that could happen, and then suddenly every single one that supported Justinia would be an enemy of the Chantry. That's why they'll wait until Justinia starts winning. She may have the support of the masses (her powerbase), but it's the nobles' support that weighs the most. And they do not gamble on someone else's schemes (their own, certainly, but not someone else's). Support the wrong person and you'll fall out of grace... and that's a death sentence for nobles.

 

Just look at the Thrennolds in Kirkwall. Just look at the Vaels. They happened to just be related to the wrong person. Can you imagine what would happen if you openly supported one?

 

Power is many things... but it's not forgiving. Especially not when it was seized.

[Master Warder Z_]

We do not speak that creature's name!

 

...I liked Petrice...

 

[EmissaryofLies]

I'll bet money that Vernell can tell stories for days about that Petrice. 

 

 

 

Edit: Of course you did, Warder. 

[Hellion Rex]

...I liked Petrice...

 

[AresKeith]

...I liked Petrice...

 

 

Get out

[Master Warder Z_]

 

._. Anti Mage, Anti Qunari and Pro Chantry, Why wouldn't i support said personage?

 

Just because i disagree with whom sits upon the throne doesn't change my view of it being a good orginization to it being a bad one.