1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Get out

 

You dare command me?!

 

I will Shrina Tensei your face!

[EmissaryofLies]

Petrice is a freak. I know my freaks when I see 'em. 

[Hellion Rex]

You dare command me?!

 

I will Shrina Tensei your face!

And I'll Rasengan your a**.

[wcholcombe]

I'm still banking on the Chantry being in Shism as of DAI, Petrice's words would be so fitting, given the differing approaches and views of the various Mothers, Clerics and what have you, I can see the Divine maintaining some of her support, but she wasn't overly popular with either the Templars nor the Clerics according to some speculation gleaned in Asunder.

 

And that would effectively split the Chantry response to the loss of the Templars, you could in some instances see the Seperation conveyed as a Negative, While having another branch state that they are doing the Maker's Will, i can see how the division within the Church could effect their message regionally and that's what matters in this conflict, unless if my mage stratagem for the Templars War Plan actually sees the light of day, but...That would actually require Bioware implementing real military mindscape to their battles, and thus far they haven't done so.

Schism in the Grand Clerics and such with the Divine sure.  Schism among the rank and file regarding the divine?  No way.  Look at history.  At times uppity monarchs and such have gone against the Pope, but the popes have historically almost always enjoyed popular support from the faithful.  The templars can claim they are doing the makers will, but it will be a hard sell as long as they are in opposition to the divine symbol of Andraste on Thedas.

 

Yes, that's the argument in favour of the Divine. She has moral and legal legitimacy here. They rebelled against her orders. She let the mages go, they refused to comply.

 

But power isn't that easy. What if the templars start winning? What if they force her on the run? What if she dies and one of her enemies and a supporter of the templars is voted into office? All that could happen, and then suddenly every single one that supported Justinia would be an enemy of the Chantry. That's why they'll wait until Justinia starts winning. She may have the support of the masses (her powerbase), but it's the nobles' support that weighs the most. And they do not gamble on someone else's schemes (their own, certainly, but not someone else's). Support the wrong person and you'll fall out of grace... and that's a death sentence for nobles.

Just look at the Thrennolds in Kirkwall. Just look at the Vaels. They happened to just be related to the wrong person. Can you imagine what would happen if you openly supported one?

But see, I don't see the Chantry putting itself publicly supporting one side or the other. Publicly as far as Justinia is concerned both sides are in rebellion.  Officially as the divine she has never said the mages could leave. Plus, the templars left the chantry to go after the mages, they aren't in open conflict with the Chantry.

 

Also, she still have enough power to apparently make both sides sit down at a peace conference during the prologue to the game.

[AresKeith]

You dare command me?!

 

I will Shrina Tensei your face!

 

Look at my avi, you have no chance lol

[Mistic]

But power isn't that easy. What if the templars start winning? What if they force her on the run? What if she dies and one of her enemies and a supporter of the templars is voted into office? All that could happen, and then suddenly every single one that supported Justinia would be an enemy of the Chantry. That's why they'll wait until Justinia starts winning. She may have the support of the masses (her powerbase), but it's the nobles' support that weighs the most. And they do not gamble on someone else's schemes (their own, certainly, but not someone else's). Support the wrong person and you'll fall out of grace... and that's a death sentence for nobles.

Just look at the Thrennolds in Kirkwall. Just look at the Vaels. They happened to just be related to the wrong person. Can you imagine what would happen if you openly supported one?

 

Not really a problem if the countries were in a good shape. After all, remember: even if they don't like the Divine, Templars and Mages are rogue supoer powered people waging war in their lands. They won't like it.

 

BUT we know that Orlais is in the middle of a civil war, Ferelden is still recovering from the Blight, Nevarra is facing a succession crisis, the Anderfels are Ferelden squared, Antiva is a city, Rivain is a mess and the Free Marches... well, they're the Free Marches.

 

So, yeah, they probably will say:

"Sorry, we'd like to help, but we can't right now. However, if some adventurous adventurer would help us with our problem, maybe we could do something..."

[Master Warder Z_]

And I'll Rasengan your a**.

 

NOT THE WINDBALL!

 

  Takes forever to repair the damage the stupid thing causes, even the King of Hell doesn't like reparing the damage the stupid thing does.

 

Also Konan likes that aspect of my physical body so no touchy!

[wcholcombe]

That is a very nice analysis of the steps that have leaded to the current situation. I still believe there's some kind of conspiration, according to the promotional material, so 2, 4, 5 (as the result of 2) and 8 can have been caused by manipulative elements.

 

Still, it wasn't unavoidable per se, but some people, willing or not, took every decision possible to make it so.

 

 

What you are referring to is popular support. That can be a source of legitimacy, but it's not the only one.

 

Your question was: "Without the chantry or any individual countries support, what gives the templars who left the Chantry any level of legitimacy to do a mage hunt?". According to Lambert himself in the epilogue of Asunder, there are two sources of legitimacy:

 

-God. "Where even the Chantry had failed, the Seekers of Truth would stand triumphant in the eyes of the Maker". The Chantry is not fit to do the Maker's will. Rememeber, those who think god is on their side don't tend to doubt that their cause is just.

-Law. According to him, the Chantry broke the Nevarran Accord, so neither Seekers nor Templars feel obligated to serve the Divine. They probably consider themselves the heirs of the old Inquisition, an organization that predates the Chantry by 100 years.

 

Of course, the new Inquisition is going to appear and point 2 is going to become a problem.

Regarding this.  The templars have always been viewed as part of the Chantry and subservient to the Divine.  They may think they are doing god's will, but the people of thedas who see them in open opposition to the Divine probably won't.

[Master Warder Z_]

Look at my avi, you have no chance lol

 

I fear not fat white man in horn hat!

[TheKomandorShepard]

I always thought it was Lambert when he defied the Divine's orders again.

 

 

Lambert was one who stopped the war how do you ask first he defeated mages before war even started then when situation was stable divine helped mages escape what lead to world war 

 

So not only she provoked both sides but also when 1 side was defeated she let them go and do i have add that she let walking bombs roam free?

 

So yep when lambert won divine let mages back to game then war started.

 

And no mages wouldn't rise why first because they didn't had any chance and they know it second colossal defeat of mages by lambet would be sigin for mages that discourages mages from taking hostile move toward templars and third divine behavior gave mages hope and thats major factor that allow start war.

 

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Schism in the Grand Clerics and such with the Divine sure.  Schism among the rank and file regarding the divine?  No way.  Look at history.  At times uppity monarchs and such have gone against the Pope, but the popes have historically almost always enjoyed popular support from the faithful.  The templars can claim they are doing the makers will, but it will be a hard sell as long as they are in opposition to the divine symbol of Andraste on Thedas.

 

You think she would enjoy that popular support in regions were Grand Clerics have denounced her and called her unworthy?

 

I have a feeling people will folow their local leadership in the Chruch over a Divine they have never even seen, Such as when you had the Protestant Reformation in 16th century Europe, you had entire sects of the Catholic Religion abandon the Pope for local Leadership in a new Faith. There is historical presdience for this sort of thing.

[Sir JK]

Schism in the Grand Clerics and such with the Divine sure.  Schism among the rank and file regarding the divine?  No way.  Look at history.  At times uppity monarchs and such have gone against the Pope, but the popes have historically almost always enjoyed popular support from the faithful.  The templars can claim they are doing the makers will, but it will be a hard sell as long as they are in opposition to the divine symbol of Andraste on Thedas.

 

But see, I don't see the Chantry putting itself publicly supporting one side or the other. Publicly as far as Justinia is concerned both sides are in rebellion.  Officially as the divine she has never said the mages could leave. Plus, the templars left the chantry to go after the mages, they aren't in open conflict with the Chantry.

 

Also, she still have enough power to apparently make both sides sit down at a peace conference during the prologue to the game.

 

Of course. She isn't weak. Of the three factions she's still the most powerful of them. By a long shot.

 

The templars aren't going to roll over defeated after a week though... they're much stronger than that. Still... if the Divine demands you come for talks, then you come for talks. Just to put on a show if nothing else.

 

Not really a problem if the countries were in a good shape. After all, remember: even if they don't like the Divine, Templars and Mages are rogue supoer powered people waging war in their lands. They won't like it.

 

BUT we know that Orlais is in the middle of a civil war, Ferelden is still recovering from the Blight, Nevarra is facing a succession crisis, the Anderfels are Ferelden squared, Antiva is a city, Rivain is a mess and the Free Marches... well, they're the Free Marches.

 

So, yeah, they probably will say:

"Sorry, we'd like to help, but we can't right now. However, if some adventurous adventurer would help us with our problem, maybe we could do something..."

 

Exactly. There'll be excuses and apologies all along until all countries are ready to pick a side for one reason or another. Both because they're busy and because they like to see where the chips falls.

[wcholcombe]

You think she would enjoy that popular support in regions were Grand Clerics have denounced her and called her unworthy?

 

I have a feeling people will folow their local leadership in the Chruch over a Divine they have never even seen, Such as when you had the Protestant Reformation in 16th century Europe, you had entire sects of the Catholic Religion abandon the Pope for local Leadership in a new Faith. There is historical presdience for this sort of thing.

True, there is also historical history of when Henry the VIII left the Catholic church to large revolts by his own people.

Sorry, I don't see a grand cleric publicly denouncing the Divine in the 1st place. I could see them plotting against her, but not publicly denouncing her.

[Master Warder Z_]

True, there is also historical history of when Henry the VIII left the Catholic church to large revolts by his own people.

Sorry, I don't see a grand cleric publicly denouncing the Divine in the 1st place. I could see them plotting against her, but not publicly denouncing her.

 

That really isn't comparable...Him declaring himself sovereign of the religion merely to instill the practice of martial seperation isn't comparable finding corruption within a Chruch's Heirachy and calling it out on it.

 

The Divine may be the overall head of the religion, but for the most part The Grand Clerics are the most visable portion of the religion to the individual Nations, you may or may not see wide spread success through denouncing the Divine but i have no fear that if it was done, it would incite much of official or worship based response, when the Woman who has led you're city in prayer for the last two decades decides to tell you that the Divine has overstepped her station and forsaken her vows to the Chruch, i figure most people would at least listen.

 

Perhaps not agree, that after all is a matter of perspective, but i don't think its a matter of perspective to say that the Clerics are the National face of the religion and thus would be recieved.

[Mistic]

Regarding this.  The templars have always been viewed as part of the Chantry and subservient to the Divine.  They may think they are doing god's will, but the people of thedas who see them in open opposition to the Divine probably won't.

 

True, but I wasn't talking about the legitimacy others may give to them, but the legitimacy they themselves think they have.

 

You think she would enjoy that popular support in regions were Grand Clerics have denounced her and called her unworthy?

 

I have a feeling people will folow their local leadership in the Chruch over a Divine they have never even seen, Such as when you had the Protestant Reformation in 16th century Europe, you had entire sects of the Catholic Religion abandon the Pope for local Leadership in a new Faith. There is historical presdience for this sort of thing.

 

You're ssuming she was denounced like that. Apart from some Clerics being dissatisfied, there's no evidence to point out a deeper schism, since that happens every time a new leader is appointed.

 

However, if the Divine died during the game...

 

As for the Reformaiton, you forget the important part: it was part opf a power play between the Holy Roman Emperor and the feudal lords. Schisms have only triumphed when there was a political backing behind them (the Byzantine Empire in the East-West Schism, the German states in the Reformation). There were many, many attempts before, but they ended up crushed. Who will back that in Thedas right now?

 

Exactly. There'll be excuses and apologies all along until all countries are ready to pick a side for one reason or another. Both because they're busy and because they like to see where the chips falls.

 

Well, I think the reason is the former rather than the later, but I agree. After all, we wouldn't have quests to do if every country did the right thing, would we?
 

[Master Warder Z_]

You're ssuming she was denounced like that. Apart from some Clerics being dissatisfied, there's no evidence to point out a deeper schism, since that happens every time a new leader is appointed.

 

However, if the Divine died during the game...

 

As for the Reformaiton, you forget the important part: it was part opf a power play between the Holy Roman Emperor and the feudal lords. Schisms have only triumphed when there was a political backing behind them (the Byzantine Empire in the East-West Schism, the German states in the Reformation). Who will back that in Thedas right now?

 

 

Losing the Templars likely cost her freinds, add in the fact she basically allowed the Mages to orgnize themselves for war and i see her Chruch just about ready to not have her within it, Add in a freshly minted Templar Inquistion and you have a flag for these Hardline Chantry Clerics to follow and support, And the Templar Order as you well know is conected, wealthy and has Holdings through out Thedas. They could push for Reformation if they tried to do so, At least as Backers for the Clerics who seek to depose the Divine.

 

My point is this, it isn't a far fetched notion also if the Divine did die, well i can see the Templars actually rejoining the Chantry a good deal sooner if some one with agreeable politics ended up in charge, that would certainly mend a few fences.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

My point is this, it isn't a far fetched notion also if the Divine did die, well i can see the Templars actually rejoining the Chantry a good deal sooner if some one with agreeable politics ended up in charge, that would certainly mend a few fences.

Of course it would. Lambert would love to have a Yes Woman as a Divine. 

[wcholcombe]

That really isn't comparable...Him declaring himself sovereign of the religion merely to instill the practice of martial seperation isn't comparable finding corruption within a Chruch's Heirachy and calling it out on it.

 

The Divine may be the overall head of the religion, but for the most part The Grand Clerics are the most visable portion of the religion to the individual Nations, you may or may not see wide spread success through denouncing the Divine but i have no fear that if it was done, it would incite much of official or worship based response, when the Woman who has led you're city in prayer for the last two decades decides to tell you that the Divine has overstepped her station and forsaken her vows to the Chruch, i figure most people would at least listen.

 

Perhaps not agree, that after all is a matter of perspective, but i don't think its a matter of perspective to say that the Clerics are the National face of the religion and thus would be recieved.

Actually it is comparable.  Henry the VIII used corruption as part of his argument, he didn't just say you didn't give me a devource I am leaving the faith. And he was also a fairly popular king up to that point.

 

Grand clerics have power, but I don't see them denouncing the divine. It is counter productive to them. They are far better off to scheme against her behind the scenes and seek to gain her throne.  Denouncing her in public only weakens the chantry.  Its like the cardinals, they very rarely openly criticize the pope historically.  Most on Thedas probably don't know who their grand cleric even is, but they will know who the Divine is.

[Sir JK]

Of course it would. Lambert would love to have a Yes Woman as a Divine. 

 

Yeah... and the next Nevarran accord would be skewed massively in the Templars favour.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Of course it would. Lambert would love to have a Yes Woman as a Divine. 

 

To be honest for world it would be better if she was yes woman because at least world war was avoided and her actions would have sense not just be stupid decisions.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah... and the next Nevarran accord would be skewed massively in the Templars favour.

 

There is a problem with this?

 

The Templars should have more authority over the Chruch, at least in matters pertaining to the Circle.

[Sir JK]

There is a problem with this?

 

The Templars should have more authority over the Chruch, at least in matters pertaining to the Circle.

 

It's one of those perspective things, but yeah... I do believe there'd be a problem with it. Ultimately, the templars are supposed to serve the faith and the common good. If a templar sycophant is put on the sacred throne, it'd be the faith serving the templars in practise. No checks and balances, Those things tend to crash and burn.

[Hellion Rex]

There is a problem with this?

 

The Templars should have more authority over the Chruch, at least in matters pertaining to the Circle.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is a problem with this?

 

The Templars should have more authority over the Chruch, at least in matters pertaining to the Circle.

Considering no side should have more power than the others, yes there is a problem with this.

[Master Warder Z_]

Actually it is comparable.  Henry the VIII used corruption as part of his argument, he didn't just say you didn't give me a devource I am leaving the faith. And he was also a fairly popular king up to that point.

 

Grand clerics have power, but I don't see them denouncing the divine. It is counter productive to them. They are far better off to scheme against her behind the scenes and seek to gain her throne.  Denouncing her in public only weakens the chantry.  Its like the cardinals, they very rarely openly criticize the pope historically.  Most on Thedas probably don't know who their grand cleric even is, but they will know who the Divine is.

 

Both Grand Clerics presented thus far have had massive Political power vested within their Station, Even Elithina whom was in only a singular Freemarch city was quite strong in the affinity of being able to direct events, My point is this. There isnt' anything to suggest that the Divine would be more popular or known by default then a Grand Cleric in most Andrastian Nations, Given most would likely see the Cleric far more often then the Divine, and likely hear their pronoucements again far more often then the Divine, the only singular duty a Divine has that spreads the message across Thedas is the pronoucing of a new Age.

 

And Denoucing may or may not occcur, i am of the mind it isn't overly far fetched but it need be done, Ignoring the Chantry in Orlais and telling a diffrent message regionally would be enough.