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[Sutamina]

In a nutshell its Visionary vs Idealist.

Harrowmont is a traditionalist
Bhelen will do anything to achieve his goals
Justinia does not come across as a traditionalist or do what ever it takes to achieve her goals

Also the original plan that Cassandra talks about, makes me curious about what Justinia was doing before the search for the Warden and Hawke began.
Any opinions?

probably doing things behind the scenes, planing ahead, trying to set up situations to manipulate people into willing make choices they would otherwise would not make.

[BioFan (Official)]

The new divine is a blood mage, calling it now!
#semiconfirmedrumor

[Rinshikai10]

Sutamina wrote...

In a nutshell its Visionary vs Idealist.

Harrowmont is a traditionalist
Bhelen will do anything to achieve his goals
Justinia does not come across as a traditionalist or do what ever it takes to achieve her goals

Also the original plan that Cassandra talks about, makes me curious about what Justinia was doing before the search for the Warden and Hawke began.
Any opinions?

probably doing things behind the scenes, planing ahead, trying to set up situations to manipulate people into willing make choices they would otherwise would not make.

Could you elaborate on this Sutamina? 

[Sutamina]

for example letting a mage that is a libertarian get loose and baited to come to a gathering of nobles to express their feelings so that those in power become aware of the feelings of many (but not all) mages.
As a safeguard rely on the templars to provide protection against the same mage should the mage become violent.
Use the scary situation created by that mage to emotionally manipulate the nobles and other important people into recognizing a problem that has to be address.
After recongnizing a problem then hopefully use it as an opportunity to guide the people in power to support changes to the circle.

Modifié par Sutamina, 27 mai 2013 - 02:56 .

[Rinshikai10]

@Sutamina

In the example you are providing, I don't see how this would make the Circle any better for the Mages. From that event in Asunder, it can be speculated that this would insight a harsher view on the Mages, and making the Templars look better. Which would work against what Wynne claims the Divine wants.

From what I can gather, the Nobles at that ball are more concerned with their own personal advancement then changing anything. Which kind of makes Justinina's speech pointless.

IMHO that event in Asunder shows just how far the situation has fallen due to Justinias hesitation in taking action. Her lack of trust in others and their lack of trust in her is a recipe for failure.

[Rinshikai10]

An interesting point was made on The Logistics of the Mage-Templar War thread about the Divine possibly using the Chantry faith as a weapon against the rogue Templars.

My one concern being, is the Divine the voice of the Chantry, or is the Chantry the voice of the Divine? At this point can it be said that Justinia's words are considered the will of the faith?

Any thoughts?

[lil yonce]

Well, the Divine is the final arbiter of the Chant of Light, but she's also the Chantry mouthpiece and those responsibilities don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, and the latter is arguably most integral to her position. Her opinion on certain sections of the Chant and current Chantry doctrine differ and that has put her in hot water with the Seekers, Templars, Clergy, and Orlais. I think she's skating on thin ice with everyone and if she can't reconcile the situation with the Templars and Magi quickly enough she may be removed or assassinated by those affiliated with the Chantry-- those who have the most to lose by her leniency. So does she speak for the faithful? No, I don't think so presently. But does her opinion match Andraste's intent in the Chant of Light? Yes, I think so.

[Dave of Canada]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

My one concern being, is the Divine the voice of the Chantry, or is the Chantry the voice of the Divine? At this point can it be said that Justinia's words are considered the will of the faith?

Considering Justinia is hated by her peers, the Chantry might act independently from what Justinia wants if enough pressure is put on it. Technically, she's only kept in place because of tradition and the fact that the peasantry doesn't really care what the Divine says or does but regards her with praise.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 mai 2013 - 02:48 .

[Rinshikai10]

Sutamina wrote...

In a nutshell its Visionary vs Idealist.

Harrowmont is a traditionalist
Bhelen will do anything to achieve his goals
Justinia does not come across as a traditionalist or do what ever it takes to achieve her goals

Also the original plan that Cassandra talks about, makes me curious about what Justinia was doing before the search for the Warden and Hawke began.
Any opinions?

probably doing things behind the scenes, planing ahead, trying to set up situations to manipulate people into willing make choices they would otherwise would not make.

What I was trying to get at Sutamina, was like Harrowmont, Justinia appears to believe in the foundations of her system. Even though they are the cause of the problems to begin with.

From what I have seen, Harrowmont believes that the strict caste system is the only way Dwarves will survive the Darkspawn. While IMHO is more likely he and many other noble caste Dwarves don't want to lose their power to lower castes who may be able to prove themselves.

In Justinias case, the only type of change we see her doing is a possible ROT that only removes magic but not emotions. From this it could be speculated that she does believe is the Circle and only wants to change it to make it less disliked by the Mages.

The key problem is by the time she puts her plan into action, both groups are already demanding blood. Making her plans and ideals worthless in the grant scheme.

Thats just my option though.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 05 juin 2013 - 01:42 .

[azarhal]

Justinia have only been Divine for 3-4 years at the start of Asunder (became Divine in 9:34), while the Mages have been trying to leave the Chantry in 9:31 (DA:A/Wynne) and we don't really know what the Templars were thinking back then, but they might have been trying to squeeze harder already (Alrik's Tranquil Solution was proposed in 9:34, DA2 Act 2 year).

The power keg was pretty much already full and ready to blow when she got the Divine's seat.

[Rinshikai10]

Sorry to nitpick, but Justinia has been in power for a total of 5-6 years by Asunder. I don't disagree with you on the powder keg being full by the time she became Divine. However, she knew about the Kirkwall problems since she become Divine in 9:34 when Sir Alrik sent her a letter about the Tranquil Solution. Yet as far as we know no investigation was done into the problems until three years later. Putting more into the already overflowing powder keg.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 05 juin 2013 - 02:34 .

[LolaLei]

Either way, I bet she ends up getting killed in DA3. They nearly managed to bump her off before, there's only so many times the old gal can cheat death.

I'm calling it now, if that survey leak was legit and something does go boom, or the veil tears open and demons pour out, the Divine will be the first one to kick the bucket, and I'll be she'll look totally peaceful and accepting about it as the massive demon looms over her in slow-mo or whatever.

Then Cassandra will be all RAWR and join the party to avenge her death.

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Sorry to nitpick, but Justinia has been in power for a total of 5-6 years by Asunder. I don't disagree with you on the powder keg being full by the time she became Divine. However, she knew about the Kirkwall problems since she become Divine in 9:34 when Sir Alrik sent her a letter about the Tranquil Solution. Yet as far as we know no investigation was done into the problems until three years later. Putting more into the already overflowing powder keg.

Asunder start in 9:38 (38-34= 4).

My point with Alrik's letter was that the Templars were trying to squeeze more before she was appointed Divine. Also, she never learned about Alrik's proposal, you pick that unsent letter from his dead body.

Also, she only sent an agent to investigate a group of mages you never knew existed until that quest is almost done, yet they were considered dangerous enough to call an Exalted March on them. That sound like being feed false information to me (iit looks like an overreaction). Yet, in the same time period, the Templars are never investigated despite taking control of the town for 3 years, trying to replace the guards with themselves, killing nobles opposing their rule and killing people helping runaway mages...

The Divine doesn't have omniscient powers, if the Grand Cleric and Knight-Commanders are telling her that everything is going fine, that is all that she knows...

[IanPolaris]

azarhal wrote...

The Divine doesn't have omniscient powers, if the Grand Cleric and Knight-Commanders are telling her that everything is going fine, that is all that she knows...

Yes, but this is why the Divine has agents like Lelianna (and IRL the Popes had Jesuits who had many of the same duties as well as secular spies).  The fact is Lelianna was mind-numbingly incompentant since five minutes in the gallows should have been enough to tell her how things were going to pot in Kirkwall, why, and who was responsible.

-Polaris

[azarhal]

IanPolaris wrote...

azarhal wrote...

The Divine doesn't have omniscient powers, if the Grand Cleric and Knight-Commanders are telling her that everything is going fine, that is all that she knows...

Yes, but this is why the Divine has agents like Lelianna (and IRL the Popes had Jesuits who had many of the same duties as well as secular spies).  The fact is Lelianna was mind-numbingly incompentant since five minutes in the gallows should have been enough to tell her how things were going to pot in Kirkwall, why, and who was responsible.

-Polaris

Leliana didn't bother talking to Elthina, I don't see why she would have visited the Gallows. It wasn't the goal of her visit to Kirkwall.

[IanPolaris]

azarhal wrote...

Leliana didn't bother talking to Elthina, I don't see why she would have visited the Gallows. It wasn't the goal of her visit to Kirkwall.

How about doing her damn job one of which was to gather intelligence for the Divine.  That is why Lelianna is incompetant.  How can she gather intel if she doesn't even bother to talk or at least try to gather data on the most important players in the theatre?

-Polaris

[Rinshikai10]

LolaLei wrote...

Either way, I bet she ends up getting killed in DA3. They nearly managed to bump her off before, there's only so many times the old gal can cheat death.

I'm calling it now, if that survey leak was legit and something does go boom, or the veil tears open and demons pour out, the Divine will be the first one to kick the bucket, and I'll be she'll look totally peaceful and accepting about it as the massive demon looms over her in slow-mo or whatever.

Then Cassandra will be all RAWR and join the party to avenge her death.

If I recall correctly, that survey blast that kills the Chantry leadership is magical in origin. That being said, if Justinia is killed by said blast and Cassandra joins to avenge her. Wouldn't that turn her right back into that Mage hater we see in DotS?

@Azarhal
I can't believe that I did not realize the letter was never sent. LOL!

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 06 juin 2013 - 12:20 .

[azarhal]

IanPolaris wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Leliana didn't bother talking to Elthina, I don't see why she would have visited the Gallows. It wasn't the goal of her visit to Kirkwall.

How about doing her damn job one of which was to gather intelligence for the Divine.  That is why Lelianna is incompetant.  How can she gather intel if she doesn't even bother to talk or at least try to gather data on the most important players in the theatre?

-Polaris

Leliana's job wasn't to gather intel on people. She was in Kirkwall, incognito, to evaluate if the Revolutionists group that just moved into the city was worthy of an Exalted March or not.

[IanPolaris]

azarhal wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Leliana didn't bother talking to Elthina, I don't see why she would have visited the Gallows. It wasn't the goal of her visit to Kirkwall.

How about doing her damn job one of which was to gather intelligence for the Divine.  That is why Lelianna is incompetant.  How can she gather intel if she doesn't even bother to talk or at least try to gather data on the most important players in the theatre?

-Polaris

Leliana's job wasn't to gather intel on people. She was in Kirkwall, incognito, to evaluate if the Revolutionists group that just moved into the city was worthy of an Exalted March or not.

Her job was to gather intelligence on what was happening in Kirkwall.  She could have bought apples in the Gallows markets for five minutes and learned more about what was really going on.  Instead she jumped to conclusions and didn't even bother to ask the people that were there what was really going on.

Please don't bother to defend this.  Lelianna in FAITH was incompetant.  Period.

-Polaris

[TK514]

IanPolaris wrote...

Her job was to gather intelligence on what was happening in Kirkwall.  She could have bought apples in the Gallows markets for five minutes and learned more about what was really going on.  Instead she jumped to conclusions and didn't even bother to ask the people that were there what was really going on.

Please don't bother to defend this.  Lelianna in FAITH was incompetant.  Period.

-Polaris

I have to agree.  I like Leliana as much as the next, and think the idea of her as the shadow agent of the Divine is a neat direction for the character, but Faith was a terribly written quest put in for no other reason than an extended, and unnecessary,  cameo.

[LobselVith8]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If I recall correctly, that survey blast that kills the Chantry leadership is magical in origin. That being said, if Justinia is killed by said blast and Cassandra joins to avenge her. Wouldn't that turn her right back into that Mage hater we see in DotS?

Considering that the protagonist can be a mage, and possibly pro-mage since the developers claim we won't be forced to work for the Chantry or the templars in Inquisition, then wouldn't Cassandra take issue with following the main character if he's a mage?

[Rinshikai10]

I would believe so Lobsel. I'm simply trying to understand LolaLei POV. If the survey does have some weight to it, I'd like to understand why Cassandra would get revenge. IMHO it seems that would bring her right back to her character in DotS.

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

Her job was to gather intelligence on what was happening in Kirkwall.  She could have bought apples in the Gallows markets for five minutes and learned more about what was really going on.  Instead she jumped to conclusions and didn't even bother to ask the people that were there what was really going on.

Please don't bother to defend this.  Lelianna in FAITH was incompetant.  Period.

-Polaris

And yet the Resolutionists did try to assassinate her. I wonder... is it Leliana that does not have the full picture? Or is it us?

By all means, Meredith's heavy-handed methods and her less than moral co-workers is cetainly a primary reason that Kirkwall is so incredibly unstable... but if the Resolutionists are in town and pushing for a fight then replacing her will do no good. The next one cannot clean ranks when someone else is working to undermine him or her.

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Her job was to gather intelligence on what was happening in Kirkwall.  She could have bought apples in the Gallows markets for five minutes and learned more about what was really going on.  Instead she jumped to conclusions and didn't even bother to ask the people that were there what was really going on.

Please don't bother to defend this.  Lelianna in FAITH was incompetant.  Period.

-Polaris

And yet the Resolutionists did try to assassinate her. I wonder... is it Leliana that does not have the full picture? Or is it us?

By all means, Meredith's heavy-handed methods and her less than moral co-workers is cetainly a primary reason that Kirkwall is so incredibly unstable... but if the Resolutionists are in town and pushing for a fight then replacing her will do no good. The next one cannot clean ranks when someone else is working to undermine him or her.

The fact that the Resolutionists are stirring the pot doesn't suprise me in the slightest.  However, in FAITH Lelianna seems to believe that outside forces are the sole reason tht Kirkwall is having issues to the extend that she has stopped looking at new data and doesn't even bother to ask those that live there.

For an intelligence agent, that's incompetance.

-Polaris