1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

My opinion is that the Red Templars will be the minor, rogue faction (like a Templar equivalent of the blood mages). Lambert already put together fifteen Knight-Commanders and the Templars are very militarized, so I suppose they won't find it difficult to find a replacement for their leader.

 

But the addiction is a problem, yes. I suppose it will be adressed in the game.

Nah, that would just require individual groups of unpleasant people. The way the Red Templars have been presented, they seem like a major new unfolding threat. And I think the schism will come primarily from the Reds themselves.

[Master Warder Z_]

My opinion is that the Red Templars will be the minor, rogue faction (like a Templar equivalent of the blood mages). Lambert already put together fifteen Knight-Commanders and the Templars are very militarized, so I suppose they won't find it difficult to find a replacement for their leader.

 

But the addiction is a problem, yes. I suppose it will be adressed in the game.

 

I already offered my speculation on this.

 

I'd assume the senior most Seeker assumed the place of Lambert as acting head of the collation after his disappearance.

 

With the Individual Knight Commanders acting as regional heads of their efforts.

[Mistic]

I already offered my speculation on this.

 

I'd assume the senior most Seeker assumed the place of Lambert as acting head of the collation after his disappearance.

 

With the Individual Knight Commanders acting as regional heads of their efforts.

 

That would make sense. There seems to be some kind of confusion about the Templars having a Knight-Vigilant or a Knight-Divine, so for simplicity's sake it would be better to have a Seeker as the chief.

 

Now wondering who could be. Dean suggested the possibility of he or she being the one in charge of the Annulment in Rivain. Now that I think about it, it was the Seekers who found out the truth about the Circle in Darsmuid, and then they brought a small army of Templars. The "hero" of that Annulment could well become Lambert's successor. Maybe Cassandra stands higher in the hierarchy, but since she's still loyal to the Divine, she doesn't count.

[wcholcombe]

I already offered my speculation on this.

 

I'd assume the senior most Seeker assumed the place of Lambert as acting head of the collation after his disappearance.

 

With the Individual Knight Commanders acting as regional heads of their efforts.

 

That would make sense. There seems to be some kind of confusion about the Templars having a Knight-Vigilant or a Knight-Divine, so for simplicity's sake it would be better to have a Seeker as the chief.

 

Now wondering who could be. Dean suggested the possibility of he or she being the one in charge of the Annulment in Rivain. Now that I think about it, it was the Seekers who found out the truth about the Circle in Darsmuid, and then they brought a small army of Templars. The "hero" of that Annulment could well become Lambert's successor. Maybe Cassandra stands higher in the hierarchy, but since she's still loyal to the Divine, she doesn't count.

While some of that makes sense, to me the regional thing doesn't quite make sense.  The templars themselves probably don't outnumber the mages they watch by a significant amount.  As we have learned there were only a few hundred mages from the circles.  Rhys is unclear on this as he first states there are just over 100 of them at Andoral's reach and then that there are a few hundred there when they had the vote, but irregardless, even if there are 3 templars for every mage, that would maybe put the templars at over 1000 in number.  A significant force yes, but not if you have them spread all over southern Thedas, especially since it is believed that the red templars are splintered, and then you have to factor in the numbers of seekers and templars who decided to stick with the Chantry/divine.

 

I don't see the Templars being able to act as a multi regional group.  They are going to want to keep their power consolidated I would imagine.  Could they have 2 or 3 groups of Templar forces out and about, yes, but with the loss of numbers to the red templars and the chantry/divine they don't have the numbers to even attempt to maintain the presence they had and still be a commanding presence without the political support of the Chantry.

[Master Warder Z_]

While some of that makes sense, to me the regional thing doesn't quite make sense.  The templars themselves probably don't outnumber the mages they watch by a significant amount.  As we have learned there were only a few hundred mages from the circles.  Rhys is unclear on this as he first states there are just over 100 of them at Andoral's reach and then that there are a few hundred there when they had the vote, but irregardless, even if there are 3 templars for every mage, that would maybe put the templars at over 1000 in number.  A significant force yes, but not if you have them spread all over southern Thedas, especially since it is believed that the red templars are splintered, and then you have to factor in the numbers of seekers and templars who decided to stick with the Chantry/divine.

 

I don't see the Templars being able to act as a multi regional group.  They are going to want to keep their power consolidated I would imagine.  Could they have 2 or 3 groups of Templar forces out and about, yes, but with the loss of numbers to the red templars and the chantry/divine they don't have the numbers to even attempt to maintain the presence they had and still be a commanding presence without the political support of the Chantry.

 

 By "Regional" I meant in so far as maintaining the MAJOR advantage they have over the Circle Mages thus far from my perspective, Rivain, the Circle there was annulled that has been mentioned, But that isn't the advantage, it gives them access to the sea, it also hems in the Antivan Circle. It prevents the collapse of the Northlands while the War rages its proper course through the South, From my perspective? That control of the mobility of their foe will likely be a major reason why the Templars ultimately win.

 

Add in the fact that apart from being able to watch for Sea Traffic they can also have a steady transit system from Orlais to the other fronts as they open or close, basically they can dictate where and when they fight.

 

The Mages unless if they stumble on to an Armada likely will have to book ships, assuming they can garner the coin.

[wcholcombe]

 By "Regional" I meant in so far as maintaining the MAJOR advantage they have over the Circle Mages thus far from my perspective, Rivain, the Circle there was annulled that has been mentioned, But that isn't the advantage, it gives them access to the sea, it also hems in the Antivan Circle. It prevents the collapse of the Northlands while the War rages its proper course through the South, From my perspective? That control of the mobility of their foe will likely be a major reason why the Templars ultimately win.

 

Add in the fact that apart from being able to watch for Sea Traffic they can also have a steady transit system from Orlais to the other fronts as they open or close, basically they can dictate where and when they fight.

 

The Mages unless if they stumble on to an Armada likely will have to book ships, assuming they can garner the coin.

I can see that, I just don't see that aspect of it being that vital. It isn't like the mages and templars are recognized countries. The templars may be closer, but you aren't going to be able to blockade the mages in, they will just hop on a random sea going vessel-hopefully without a staff on their back and the templars won't even know they are there.  I don't see the sea being vital to the mages.  Especially with the use of sending stones they will have far better communication than the templars.  If they have half a clue they will fortify their position and take advantage of their strengths.  Trying to fight a conventional conflict with the templars would be folly.

[Master Warder Z_]

I can see that, I just don't see that aspect of it being that vital. It isn't like the mages and templars are recognized countries. The templars may be closer, but you aren't going to be able to blockade the mages in, they will just hop on a random sea going vessel-hopefully without a staff on their back and the templars won't even know they are there.  I don't see the sea being vital to the mages.  Especially with the use of sending stones they will have far better communication than the templars.  If they have half a clue they will fortify their position and take advantage of their strengths.  Trying to fight a conventional conflict with the templars would be folly.

 

It enables control of traffic in the sea, Rivain hasn't been confirmed to have an access point to the deeproads and even if they had one, it likely will be so infested with Darkspawn it would be impassable, Lyrium trade is vital to both sides of the conflict and through Rivain they likely could control it fairly well if they so desired. Individual mages certainly, but it prevents things from escalating further inland if things go bad in the South, That's my view of it the control of the sea will likely prevent random seaborne invasion, That's my point if, things actually do come down to individual armies clashing, rather then mass skirmishes across the continent.

 

It wouldn't be over much advantage in counter insurgency and thus its importance likely will not be over relevant to the Plot, its just i look through the eyes of a military tactician and cannot help but see the advantage here, preventing Lyrium traffic to former circle mages, corralling the North and having a steady logistical and access point to both North and South would be invaluable to any war effort.

[wcholcombe]

It enables control of traffic in the sea, Rivain hasn't been confirmed to have an access point to the deeproads and even if they had one, it likely will be so infested with Darkspawn it would be impassable, Lyrium trade is vital to both sides of the conflict and through Rivain they likely could control it fairly well if they so desired. Individual mages certainly, but it prevents things from escalating further inland if things go bad in the South, That's my view of it the control of the sea will likely prevent random seaborne invasion, That's my point if, things actually do come down to individual armies clashing, rather then mass skirmishes across the continent.

 

It wouldn't be over much advantage in counter insurgency and thus its importance likely will not be over relevant to the Plot, its just i look through the eyes of a military tactician and cannot help but see the advantage here, preventing Lyrium traffic to former circle mages, corralling the North and having a steady logistical and access point to both North and South would be invaluable to any war effort.

I fully see that, but like I said, the mages would be utter fools if they try to wage a conventional war against the templars.  Any conflict they engage in, they have to have a means of keeping the templars at distance, and lining up their armies to go at each other would be madness.  The mages best hope for victory is indeed the same as the South's in the ACW, recognition from someone strong enough to give their cause legitimacy.  Where the Annaconda Plan doesn't apply is that the mages aren't trying to export things to gain legitimacy they will be seeking it through a moral argument.

[Master Warder Z_]

The mages best hope for victory is indeed the same as the South's in the ACW, recognition from someone strong enough to give their cause legitimacy.  Where the Annaconda Plan doesn't apply is that the mages aren't trying to export things to gain legitimacy they will be seeking it through a moral argument.

 

Long live the Confederacy!

 

 

I know what i propose isn't likely to occur, but as i said it merely comes from me glancing at the situation via a tacticians eye, although i admit my hand at that isn't the best, its likely subpar i just know the economics and logistics of warfare. I don't have enough of the regional situations to give an accurate assessment, i just point to it being a Templar advantage.

 

Course what a former Infantryman knows about theater warfare is subjective no?

[Sir JK]

The Mages unless if they stumble on to an Armada...

 

Like the Felissima Armada? Who is deeply involved in lyrium and mage smuggling? Many of which are non-andrastians and on occasion even employs mages? And also won't like the templars interfering with their business at all...

 

Oh... and Rivain's their hometurf.

 

That Armada?

[Master Warder Z_]

Like the Felissima Armada? Who is deeply involved in lyrium and mage smuggling? Many of which are non-andrastians and on occasion even employs mages? And also won't like the templars interfering with their business at all...

 

Oh... and Rivain's their hometurf.

 

That Armada?

 

The one that the Templars likely have just as good a connection to due to their "policing" of lyrium smuggling?

 

You're forgetting that the Templars tend to not do their jobs when Lyrium smuggling comes to their attention, they merely want a cut.

 

I think the Armada would be conflicted, furthermore it isn't a united entity unless pressed.

 

So sure, some of it could back Mages, they could get a Merchant prince or two on their side, but what happens when others support the Templars? The Templars of the Region already possess a former circle and all the resources and wealth contained within, i think they would have more to bargain with in Rivain then say, wandering bands of Apostates.

[Mistic]

It enables control of traffic in the sea, Rivain hasn't been confirmed to have an access point to the deeproads and even if they had one, it likely will be so infested with Darkspawn it would be impassable, Lyrium trade is vital to both sides of the conflict and through Rivain they likely could control it fairly well if they so desired. Individual mages certainly, but it prevents things from escalating further inland if things go bad in the South, That's my view of it the control of the sea will likely prevent random seaborne invasion, That's my point if, things actually do come down to individual armies clashing, rather then mass skirmishes across the continent.

 

It wouldn't be over much advantage in counter insurgency and thus its importance likely will not be over relevant to the Plot, its just i look through the eyes of a military tactician and cannot help but see the advantage here, preventing Lyrium traffic to former circle mages, corralling the North and having a steady logistical and access point to both North and South would be invaluable to any war effort.

 

Although I agree that having dealt with the Rivaini mages is a good strategic advantage for the Seekers-Templars, I don't think it is in the way you are thinking.

 

Access to the sea is good for their mobility, but not to the control of the trade routes. They can't, they don't have the means or the manpower. Those waters infested with pirates from the Felicisima Armada who, as Sir JK has pointed out, wouldn't want some skirts trying to break their trade and has enough manpower to face the Qunari fleet. Also, the other only important magic centers in the north are Antiva (just a city, can be overlooked), Anderfels (too dangerous and with the danger of pissing off the Grey Wardens) and Tevinter (no, just...no), so the Templars don't gain anything by trying to control the north.

 

BUT with Rivain controlled, they can send those extra Seekers and Templars to the south, to reinforce their brethren, so yeah, it is an advantage. They will probably try to take some keeps for themselves, to have lands > food & money for the war effort. Of course, then some strange human/elf/dwar/qunari will appear wearing a very ominous symbol that looks eerily similar to the Seekers' and Templars' and say: "Nice castle. I'll take it".

 

I agree with wcholcombe, the mages can't win using conventional warfare. So that means diplomacy, unconventional warfare or some mages doing a very stupid thing to win that can cause the end of the world or something.

[Master Warder Z_]

As i said i am looking at it through a perspective Bioware never would.

 

Applying actual Military tactical theater principles to a conflict.

 

Bioware's set stratagem for such things thus far has been "lulmasscharge" or "lulmagicalbombardment then mass charge"

 

There hasn't been over much concern for the mindset that comes with waging a war, little lone an international one.

 

So sure, i credit the Templars an advantage in that spectrum, i already as much that it likely wouldn't make over much difference in the actual events given that isn't how Bioware operates in this context.

[Sir JK]

I think the Armada would be conflicted, furthermore it isn't a united entity unless pressed.

 

So sure, some of it could back Mages, they could get a Merchant prince or two on their side, but what happens when others support the Templars? The Templars of the Region already possess a former circle and all the resources and wealth contained within, i think they would have more to bargain with in Rivain then say, wandering bands of Apostates.

 

You're probably right about the former. I just thought it was amusing that you happen to say that the mages would have to find an Armada in the one country that operates one (a pirate one).

 

About the latter though... remember that it was the Antivan templars that burned Darsmuíd circle. They actually had to sail away from Rivain to get what they needed (implying that the Rivaini templars weren't going to play ball... which fits with what we know given the reason for the annulment). Rivain is only nominally andrastian and has considerable qunari minorities and a pantheist majority.

 

It is perhaps the one country where the Templars will have it the most difficult. Because here Tevinter magisters are welcome (according to WoT) and "a band of apostates" had so much power they cound recruit out of the circles themselves.

 

But regardless... let's take templar tactics to their own thread (or PM:s and steer this back to Justinia, shall we?

[Master Warder Z_]

But regardless... let's take templar tactics to their own thread

 

Templars have their own thread?

[Sir JK]

Templars have their own thread?

 

True... we tend to try to highjack threads touching on them... it's just that the pro-mages do too and they're better.

 

But more seriously: Make a new one?

[Master Warder Z_]

True... we tend to try to highjack threads touching on them... it's just that the pro-mages do too and they're better.

 

But more seriously: Make a new one?

 

Pro Mages hijack anything that can promote their continental instability and anarchy.

 

And i might just do that, unsure really.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Templars have their own thread?

They had many to be honest some were locked but most just lost interest because peoples didn't write there anymore it was on old forum

[EmissaryofLies]

Wasn't that hilarious 'Templar Perspective' post the templar thread? Might have been something else, happy digging. 

[Mistic]

As i said i am looking at it through a perspective Bioware never would.

 

Applying actual Military tactical theater principles to a conflict.

 

Bioware's set stratagem for such things thus far has been "lulmasscharge" or "lulmagicalbombardment then mass charge"

 

There hasn't been over much concern for the mindset that comes with waging a war, little lone an international one.

 

Well, yeah, Hollywood tactics. But, hey, some people still think that Loghain made a sound strategic decision, so the bar isn't set too high.

 

But Sir JK is right, this thread is supposed to be about Justinia. Or Dorothea, as Celene calls her. I have the feeling those two may share a story. Think about it, some years ago Dorothea was probably like Leliana. How did she end up in the Chantry and holding so much power?

[wcholcombe]

Well, yeah, Hollywood tactics. But, hey, some people still think that Loghain made a sound strategic decision, so the bar isn't set too high.

 

But Sir JK is right, this thread is supposed to be about Justinia. Or Dorothea, as Celene calls her. I have the feeling those two may share a story. Think about it, some years ago Dorothea was probably like Leliana. How did she end up in the Chantry and holding so much power?

Or some years ago Dorothea was the Bard who trained Celene?

 

There is room for lots of suppositions. 

 

I will say this, there has been a great deal of development towards Justinia, we have much more awareness of her than we do most if not all people in positions of true power-you could argue Allistaire, but in reality I don't feel we really know Allistaire that well, I think bioware has plans for her and she isn't going to be walking off stage any time soon.

[Sir JK]

But Sir JK is right, this thread is supposed to be about Justinia. Or Dorothea, as Celene calls her. I have the feeling those two may share a story. Think about it, some years ago Dorothea was probably like Leliana. How did she end up in the Chantry and holding so much power?

 

That is a very good question. Leverage on the right people is almost certainly a given. But I do hope we learn more about this enigmatic Divine

[Mistic]

Or some years ago Dorothea was the Bard who trained Celene?

 

Or maybe they both had the same teacher. Both Celene and Dorothea knew Marjolaine and I think there was more than it was mentioned in Leliana's Song.

 

Also, how did she become the woman Beatrix III trusted to become the next Divine? It was Beatrix's will, more than anything, that made her the Divine. Few knew of her past, she didn't seem very important, and everyone knew that poor, senile Beatrix was being manipulated by her ambitious assistants. Yet she had enough force of will to choose Dorothea before she died. Why her?

 

What if Dorothea worked for Beatrix as Leliana now works for her? In the shadows, carrying out the projects the rest of the Chantry shouldn't know about? Like the research about Tranquility. If Faramond had been working for 5 years, that means he started just a year after Dorothea became the Divine.

[wcholcombe]

Or maybe they both had the same teacher. Both Celene and Dorothea knew Marjolaine and I think there was more than it was mentioned in Leliana's Song.

 

Also, how did she become the woman Beatrix III trusted to become the next Divine? It was Beatrix's will, more than anything, that made her the Divine. Few knew of her past, she didn't seem very important, and everyone knew that poor, senile Beatrix was being manipulated by her ambitious assistants. Yet she had enough force of will to choose Dorothea before she died. Why her?

 

What if Dorothea worked for Beatrix as Leliana now works for her? In the shadows, carrying out the projects the rest of the Chantry shouldn't know about? Like the research about Tranquility. If Faramond had been working for 5 years, that means he started just a year after Dorothea became the Divine.

Well, the Grand Clerics all knew Dorothea was formerly a bard and it was apparently a big disagreement if such a person who had lived such a previous life should be allowed to become divine.