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[Sir JK]

Or maybe they both had the same teacher. Both Celene and Dorothea knew Marjolaine and I think there was more than it was mentioned in Leliana's Song.

 

Really? Marjorlaine and Dorothea I knew, but Celene? Do you have a source for that I can look up?

 

Well, the Grand Clerics all knew Dorothea was formerly a bard and it was apparently a big disagreement if such a person who had lived such a previous life should be allowed to become divine.

 

Did they know she was formerly a bard (for that matter, do we?)? I thought they objected to that she was a "mere" Revered Mother and they expected one of them to be chosen.

 

Also... why they ultimately respected Beatrix III's will is another good question.

[wcholcombe]

Really? Marjorlaine and Dorothea I knew, but Celene? Do you have a source for that I can look up?

 

 

Did they know she was formerly a bard (for that matter, do we?)? I thought they objected to that she was a "mere" Revered Mother and they expected one of them to be chosen.

 

Also... why they ultimately respected Beatrix III's will is another good question.

We know from Masked Empire preview Celene was trained as a bard, don't think she ever was actually one though. It wouldn't make sense for a noble in line to rule Orlais to waste time as a bard, whereas being trained as a bard would be very useful in playing the great game.

 

Before her ascension to Divine, Justinia V was known as Dorothea, an Orlesian Revered Mother. After Divine Beatrix III died from a stroke in 9:34 Dragon, she left behind the name of her preferred successor, Dorothea, as tradition dictated. Dorothea was elected Divine, though with some controversy among the Grand Clerics due to her colourful past.^[2]

[Master Warder Z_]

Less then ten years on the Throne and she bungles things so bad they go from cases of remote corruption to full blown hostilities.

 

._. Beatrix obviously wasn't of sound mind putting her there.

[LobselVith8]

Nah, that would just require individual groups of unpleasant people. The way the Red Templars have been presented, they seem like a major new unfolding threat. And I think the schism will come primarily from the Reds themselves.

 

They seem to be a threat in Ferelden, which is strange, unless Greagoir is no longer in charge. I'd imagine that Justina would protest the path that the Red Templars have embarked on, considering the track record of lyrium. Red lyrium makes you hear voices and go insane. If these templars are anything like Bartrand was, I can see it causing a big problem for both the mages and the regular templars on both sides of the schism.

 

Justina may send Leliana to investigate the situation, unless there are more urgent problems because of the schism and the fallout with the veil tears that demand their attention elsewhere.

[wcholcombe]

Some other interesting info I have uncovered from the Wiki. Some I figured, but to have an actual source I find interesting:

 

Dragon, following a string of small mage revolts, Justinia V dispatches a trusted agent to Kirkwall to gather information on the threat, believing its problems were spurred on by outside groups. After assessing the situation and assassinating threats, the agent passes the Divine's message along to the Champion of Kirkwall and Sebastian Vael: Kirkwall is no longer a safe place for Grand Cleric Elthina, so she must flee to the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux. The Grand Cleric, however, declines the Divine's offer and ultimately becomes the first casualty of the Mage-Templar War (with her death being arguably its trigger). Three years later, Justinia sends a contingent of Seekers still loyal to her to Kirkwall to locate its Champion, who was present during the events during and leading up to the outbreak of the war.

 

 

Shortly after her installment as Divine, Justinia discreetly began to investigate the treatment of mages by the Chantry. She believed in improving the Circle of Magi, but centuries of Chantry tradition prevented her from simply commanding the templars to follow her vision, which many would resist. To this end, she had secretly ordered a Tranquil named Pharamond to research ways to protect weaker mages from demonic possession without resorting to the Rite of Tranquility. Arch-Mage Wynne was charged with monitoring Pharamond's progress. Five years later, Wynne learned that Pharamond had become possessed by a demon—something that theoretically cannot happen to a Tranquil. Justinia authorized Wynne to rescue the man and discover the results of his experiments, leading to Wynne's expedition to the Adamant fortress.

[wcholcombe]

Less then ten years on the Throne and she bungles things so bad they go from cases of remote corruption to full blown hostilities.

 

._. Beatrix obviously wasn't of sound mind putting her there.

Jeez you sound like TKS-no that wasn't a compliment-She was obviously dedicated to improving the chantry and willing to take the risks necessary to see such changes through.

[Master Warder Z_]

Jeez you sound like TKS-no that wasn't a compliment-She was obviously dedicated to improving the chantry and willing to take the risks necessary to see such changes through.

 

She gambled and lost friend, don't oversell it.

 

She went against the direction of politics, Chantry teaching, And the Templar order knowing it likely things COULD explode in her face.

 

She did it anyway, to me its a pretty evident blunder.

[wcholcombe]

She gambled and lost friend, don't oversell it.

 

She went against the direction of politics, Chantry teaching, And the Templar order knowing it likely things COULD explode in her face.

 

She did it anyway, to me its a pretty evident blunder.

But see, the game isn't over yet.  If she crushes the templar and mage revolts, brings the chantry into the Dragon Age, and improves the situation overall, she still wins and no one cares about the events in Asunder much more than Operation Market Garden is really viewed as a giant blunder today. It is a minor foot note in the history of the war.

[Mistic]

Really? Marjorlaine and Dorothea I knew, but Celene? Do you have a source for that I can look up?

 

Of course. Here, the preview for chapter 1 of The Masked Empire. Celene says that Marjolaine told her that "we are always at war".

 

She gambled and lost friend, don't oversell it.

 

She went against the direction of politics, Chantry teaching, And the Templar order knowing it likely things COULD explode in her face.

 

She did it anyway, to me its a pretty evident blunder.

 

As wcholcombe has said, the war has just begun. She lost a battle, she can recover. Also, the real problem was that every party thought that the conflict was unavoidable. Heck, even Celene and Gaspard thought so before the events in Asunder. If it was really unavoidable or not in the end doesn't matter, because it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

The Divine wasn't just trying to avoid a war. She knew war could happen. What she was trying to do was to stop mages and templars from being killed by the Orlesian army, by brokering a deal. She wanted to save them all, but neither templars nor mages are aware of that.

[Master Warder Z_]

But see, the game isn't over yet.  If she crushes the templar and mage revolts, brings the chantry into the Dragon Age, and improves the situation overall, she still wins and no one cares about the events in Asunder much more than Operation Market Garden is really viewed as a giant blunder today. It is a minor foot note in the history of the war.

 

So excuse the fact she failed, because she has the chance to possibly fix her failing?

 

Alright, fair enough.

 

We will see how things play out.

[wcholcombe]

Of course. Here, the preview for chapter 1 of The Masked Empire. Celene says that Marjolaine told her that "we are always at war".

 

 

As wcholcombe has said, the war has just begun. She lost a battle, she can recover. Also, the real problem was that every party thought that the conflict was unavoidable. Heck, even Celene and Gaspard thought so before the events in Asunder. If it was really unavoidable or not in the end doesn't matter, because it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

The Divine wasn't just trying to avoid a war. She knew war could happen. What she was trying to do was to stop mages and templars from being killed by the Orlesian army, by brokering a deal. She wanted to save them all, but neither templars nor mages are aware of that.

Shortly after her installment as Divine, Justinia discreetly began to investigate the treatment of mages by the Chantry. She believed in improving the Circle of Magi, but centuries of Chantry tradition prevented her from simply commanding the templars to follow her vision, which many would resist.

 

She was wanting to reform independent of all of that.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Divine wasn't just trying to avoid a war. She knew war could happen. What she was trying to do was to stop mages and templars from being killed by the Orlesian army, by brokering a deal. She wanted to save them all, but neither templars nor mages are aware of that.

 

Never minding the fact the very reason that the Orlaisian Empire was considering getting involved in the management of the circle within their borders was due to the unrest caused by mage action at Kirkwall, or Seeker inaction or however you wish to portray it, Ultimately the war began because at least in part the Divine tried to play both sides.

 

And rather then jumping that hurdle she was impaled upon it.

[wcholcombe]

So excuse the fact she failed, because she has the chance to possibly fix her failing?

 

Alright, fair enough.

 

We will see how things play out.

So the U.S.A. failed prior to WW2 when they decided to stop giving resources to Japan which lead to Japan attacking Pearl Harbor/the Phillipines/etc?

 

Sorry this is a limited perspective. When you are playing on a board this size you can't look at it that way.

 

She tried to make the changes through diplomacy, knowing that it was entirely likely the changes would require violence, but was willing to make the effort anyway.

[wcholcombe]

Never minding the fact the very reason that the Orlaisian Empire was considering getting involved in the management of the circle within their borders was due to the unrest caused by mage action at Kirkwall, or Seeker inaction or however you wish to portray it, Ultimately the war began because at least in part the Divine tried to play both sides.

 

And rather then jumping that hurdle she was impaled upon it.

Actually both Gaspard and Celene both describe the actions of the templars as being just as much to blame as the mages.  They reference the mages fleeing the towers and the templars being all too eager to kill the mages.  Gaspards exact words are something to the effect of "Let our mages and templars kill someone else instead of each other." This isn't a kirkwall reference, this is what is going on in the circles in Orlais.

[wcholcombe]

Never minding the fact the very reason that the Orlaisian Empire was considering getting involved in the management of the circle within their borders was due to the unrest caused by mage action at Kirkwall, or Seeker inaction or however you wish to portray it, Ultimately the war began because at least in part the Divine tried to play both sides.

 

And rather then jumping that hurdle she was impaled upon it.

She wasn't playing both sides: Again from the Wiki:

Shortly after her installment as Divine, Justinia discreetly began to investigate the treatment of mages by the Chantry. She believed in improving the Circle of Magi, but centuries of Chantry tradition prevented her from simply commanding the templars to follow her vision, which many would resist.

[Master Warder Z_]

So the U.S.A. failed prior to WW2 when they decided to stop giving resources to Japan which lead to Japan attacking Pearl Harbor/the Phillipines/etc?

 

Sorry this is a limited perspective. When you are playing on a board this size you can't look at it that way.

 

She tried to make the changes through diplomacy, knowing that it was entirely likely the changes would require violence, but was willing to make the effort anyway.

 

To contribute to efforts to undermine one of their most prosperous and profitable trade partners, Yes.

 

I'd view that as a pretty evident, "come and get me if you dare" type challenge.

 

Anyway it isn't comparable, the Divine was trying to undermine both factions, She wanted Mages to have more authority and a possible counter to the rite of tranqulity, while at the same time trying to maintain the Templar balance of power, while combating the Lord Seeker at least twice on the management of the White Spire, but her usage of Chantry resources in instigating the escape of Rebel Mages?

 

She drew a line, I don't care for perspective beyond that, its not been elaborated on overly as of yet, but to me?

 

She picked a side in this conflict, we will see where it takes her.

[Master Warder Z_]

She wasn't playing both sides: Again from the Wiki:

Shortly after her installment as Divine, Justinia discreetly began to investigate the treatment of mages by the Chantry. She believed in improving the Circle of Magi, but centuries of Chantry tradition prevented her from simply commanding the templars to follow her vision, which many would resist.

 

How exactly isn't it playing both sides?

 

She seeks to undermine the Templars, She seeks to empower the Mages?

 

She made and broke promises to both factions.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So the U.S.A. failed prior to WW2 when they decided to stop giving resources to Japan which lead to Japan attacking Pearl Harbor/the Phillipines/etc?

 

Sorry this is a limited perspective. When you are playing on a board this size you can't look at it that way.

 

She tried to make the changes through diplomacy, knowing that it was entirely likely the changes would require violence, but was willing to make the effort anyway.

 

Yeah she started world war and pissed off both sides that she "wanted" reconcile it is ultimate stupidity woman cleary doesn't have idea what she was doing and in name of what to improve life of few she destroyed life of millions genius strikes and she screwd in doing that as well...

 

but well for someone that think she was realist when she was so naive and incompetent what i can say...

[wcholcombe]

How exactly isn't it playing both sides?

 

She seeks to undermine the Templars, She seeks to empower the Mages?

 

She made and broke promises to both factions.

Well, she isn't playing the mages, she is trying to improve their situation and she is ultimately seeking to improve the Chantry as a whole.  You also stated this is in response to Orlais threatening to step in, when in fact she proceeded down this path prior to Kirkwall even occuring.

[Mistic]

Shortly after her installment as Divine, Justinia discreetly began to investigate the treatment of mages by the Chantry. She believed in improving the Circle of Magi, but centuries of Chantry tradition prevented her from simply commanding the templars to follow her vision, which many would resist.

 

She was wanting to reform independent of all of that.

 

Fair enough. Still, she has taken her sweet time and that was a big failure, as Master Warder Z says. Ok, I'm with you, looking for reformation per se wasn't a bad move and she has the chance to recover what she lost, but it was a defeat for her slow approach.

 

In other times, more peaceful times, that approach would have been the right one. Sadly for her, this is the Dragon Agewe're talking about.

 

Anyway it isn't comparable, the Divine was trying to undermine both factions, She wanted Mages to have more authority and a possible counter to the rite of tranqulity, while at the same time trying to maintain the Templar balance of power, while combating the Lord Seeker at least twice on the management of the White Spire, but her usage of Chantry resources in instigating the escape of Rebel Mages?

 

Don't forget Lamber had already betrayed her before. Sometimes I wonder if people forget that Lambert ordered Evangeline to kill the mages if they found something in Faramond's research. That was treason, underhanded tactics and conspiration for assassination, yet it's Leliana's part in freeing the mages what should be condemned?

[wcholcombe]

To contribute to efforts to undermine one of their most prosperous and profitable trade partners, Yes.

 

I'd view that as a pretty evident, "come and get me if you dare" type challenge.

 

Anyway it isn't comparable, the Divine was trying to undermine both factions, She wanted Mages to have more authority and a possible counter to the rite of tranqulity, while at the same time trying to maintain the Templar balance of power, while combating the Lord Seeker at least twice on the management of the White Spire, but her usage of Chantry resources in instigating the escape of Rebel Mages?

 

She drew a line, I don't care for perspective beyond that, its not been elaborated on overly as of yet, but to me?

 

She picked a side in this conflict, we will see where it takes her.

No, to put a limit on the aggression of an expansionist militaristic regime that through its own stated propaganda seeks to kick you out of the east asian sphere of influence is actually a smart response. Japan was coming for the U.S. irregardless, the U.S. just decided to stop supplying them with oil, steel, and scrap metal.  Pearl Harbor was a failure yes, but that also didn't cost the U.S. the war.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, she isn't playing the mages, she is trying to improve their situation and she is ultimately seeking to improve the Chantry as a whole.  You also stated this is in response to Orlais threatening to step in, when in fact she proceeded down this path prior to Kirkwall even occuring.

 

I stated that she was moving down this path because of events that were leading up to Asunder, the Empire was sick of the turmoil and was going to step in. Whether or not she was planning her betrayal of the Chantry and Templars beforehand isn't important.

 

What is important that recent events forced her hand, and that's how things exploded in her face.

[Mistic]

I stated that she was moving down this path because of events that were leading up to Asunder, the Empire was sick of the turmoil and was going to step in. Whether or not she was planning her betrayal of the Chantry and Templars beforehand isn't important.

 

Again, it's not betrayal if she was betrayed first.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Fair enough. Still, she has taken her sweet time and that was a big failure, as Master Warder Z says. Ok, I'm with you, looking for reformation per se wasn't a bad move and she has the chance to recover what she lost, but it was a defeat for her slow approach.

 

In other times, more peaceful times, that approach would have been the right one. Sadly for her, this is the Dragon Agewe're talking about.

 

 

Don't forget Lamber had already betrayed her before. Sometimes I wonder if people forget that Lambert ordered Evangeline to kill the mages if they found something in Faramond's research. That was treason, underhanded tactics and conspiration for assassination, yet it's Leliana's part in freeing the mages what should be condemned?

 

What lambert did was trying prevent war at cost of few divine started world war for sake of few well pretty much big difference at funny part she did that in her incompetence when lambert knew what he was doing.

[Master Warder Z_]

Don't forget Lamber had already betrayed her before. Sometimes I wonder if people forget that Lambert ordered Evangeline to kill the mages if they found something in Faramond's research. That was treason, underhanded tactics and conspiration for assassination, yet it's Leliana's part in freeing the mages what should be condemned?

 

Because it threatened the stability of the circle when it needed it more then it ever had before in the nine hundred years since its inception, The Divine can contemplate notions of improving conditions and freedoms all she wishes from her throne, she doesn't have to manage a circle, she doesn't have to watch and guard over mages.

 

So is it a Betrayal? I don't view it as such given that Lambert wasn't made aware of this research, the Order it self wasn't made aware of this research until it was confirmed something ill had occurred with it, so riddle me this.

 

Is it better to possibly have to kill three mages, or a thousand?

 

How much are you willing to pay to maintain order and stability? The Divine led the world to war as much as Fiona or Lambert. In fact I'd argue she set the course for it with that blasted research, said as much before too, in this very thread.