Again, it's not betrayal if she was betrayed first.
The betrayal in question that really wasn't a betrayal given the Templar oath is to safeguard mankind from magic, and not to be the private army of the Divine, anyway it didn't even happen so how exactly is proposed action a betrayal in truth?
Do you consider Operation Sea Lion an historical account of seaborne invasion despite it never being launched?
I stated that she was moving down this path because of events that were leading up to Asunder, the Empire was sick of the turmoil and was going to step in. Whether or not she was planning her betrayal of the Chantry and Templars beforehand isn't important.
What is important that recent events forced her hand, and that's how things exploded in her face.
Considering she is the head of the Chantry and the templars serve her, how can she betray herself???
It isn't like there is some chantry constitution we are aware of that limits the powers of the divine. There may be, but at this point such would be head canon. True the Nevarran accord exists, but the only thing we know that it states is the following-"In 1:20 Divine, the Nevarran Accord was signed, and the Inquisition agreed to lower its banner and submit to the authority of the Chantry.["
Thereby the templars submit to the authority of the chantry as such, it is totally in the powers of the divine to reform or remake or eliminate such a group.
You can't accuse her of betraying the organization she is basically the end all be all word in the chantry with to our knowledge no limit on what she can do in what she considers the chantry's best interest. As already demonstrated when it was a divine, not a templar or seeker, who gave the ability for the Right of Annulment to be used, and that it must be given by the Grand Cleric, not someone within the templar organization.
Because it threatened the stability of the circle when it needed it more then it ever had before in the nine hundred years since its inception, The Divine can contemplate notions of improving conditions and freedoms all she wishes from her throne, she doesn't have to manage a circle, she doesn't have to watch and guard over mages.
So is it a Betrayal? I don't view it as such given that Lambert wasn't made aware of this research, the Order it self wasn't made aware of this research until it was confirmed something ill had occurred with it, so riddle me this.
Is it better to possibly have to kill three mages, or a thousand?
How much are you willing to pay to maintain order and stability? The Divine led the world to war as much as Fiona or Lambert. In fact I'd argue she set the course for it with that blasted research, said as much before too, in this very thread.
It's betrayal, because it wasn't his call to begin with. Lambert was Lord Seeker, and the Seekers' first duty is to the Divine herself. A Divine that was also very aware of the dangers of announcing a cure, so she kept in secret. Imagine the chaos otherwise.
Seekers don't manage Circles, don't watch over mages. Lamber did only because the mage that tried to kill the Divine was from the White Spire.
The betrayal in question that really wasn't a betrayal given the Templar oath is to safeguard mankind from magic, and not to be the private army of the Divine, anyway it didn't even happen so how exactly is proposed action a betrayal in truth?
But Lambert, as many forget, was not a Templar. He was a Seeker. Worse, he was a traumatized ex-Tevinter Templar with a grudge that still thought of himself as a Templar instead of a Seeker. He failed hard at his supposed duties by trying to play a role that wasn't his. That's my problem with Lambert; he was a good Templar, but a bad Seeker.
Considering she is the head of the Chantry and the templars serve her, how can she betray herself???
It isn't like there is some chantry constitution we are aware of that limits the powers of the divine. There may be, but at this point such would be head canon. True the Nevarran accord exists, but the only thing we know that it states is the following-"In 1:20 Divine, the Nevarran Accord was signed, and the Inquisition agreed to lower its banner and submit to the authority of the Chantry.["
Thereby the templars submit to the authority of the chantry as such, it is totally in the powers of the divine to reform or remake or eliminate such a group.
You can't accuse her of betraying the organization she is basically the end all be all word in the chantry with to our knowledge no limit on what she can do in what she considers the chantry's best interest. As already demonstrated when it was a divine, not a templar or seeker, who gave the ability for the Right of Annulment to be used, and that it must be given by the Grand Cleric, not someone within the templar organization.
You seek to confound the matter with a runaround? Templars as they exist now do serve the Chantry as well as the Order, And yes the Chantry has authority over the order, but the Order and Chantry are two separate individual things. Both have their own Leadership and Hierarchies and both have mission statements and set area's of control, this is confirmed and i'l never argue my personal speculation over where and how these things mesh, but i will say this.
How she can betray an organization in service to the Chantry is quite simple.
She can decide to aid their charges against the Wardens set to keep them in place.
You seek to confound the matter with a runaround? Templars as they exist now do serve the Chantry as well as the Order, And yes the Chantry has authority over the order, but the Order and Chantry are two separate individual things. Both have their own Leadership and Hierarchies and both have mission statements and set area's of control, this is confirmed and i'l never argue my personal speculation over where and how these things mesh, but i will say this.
How she can betray an organization in service to the Chantry is quite simple.
She can decide to aid their charges against the Wardens set to keep them in place.
"In 1:20 Divine, the Nevarran Accord was signed, and the Inquisition agreed to lower its banner and submit to the authority of the Chantry.["
They were absorbed into the Chantry. They are also described as being the military wing of the ....guess what....Chantry. As such they are under the authority of the Divine. This is no more a run around then saying the Navy Seals are under the command of the President of the United states as he is the Commander in Chief. Just as the Divine would be in the Chantry.
You seek to confound the matter with a runaround? Templars as they exist now do serve the Chantry as well as the Order, And yes the Chantry has authority over the order, but the Order and Chantry are two separate individual things. Both have their own Leadership and Hierarchies and both have mission statements and set area's of control, this is confirmed and i'l never argue my personal speculation over where and how these things mesh, but i will say this.
How she can betray an organization in service to the Chantry is quite simple.
She can decide to aid their charges against the Wardens set to keep them in place.
Even with that, Lambert's treason came first, when he overstepped his "area of control" as a Seeker.
It's betrayal, because it wasn't his call to begin with. Lambert was Lord Seeker, and the Seekers' first duty is to the Divine herself. A Divine that was also very aware of the dangers of announcing a cure, so she kept in secret. Imagine the chaos otherwise.
Seekers don't manage Circles, don't watch over mages. Lamber did only because the mage that tried to kill the Divine was from the White Spire.
It wasn't his call?
There is something within most Organizations and Governments and Militaries that i do believe we need discuss NOW.
When it becomes evident a commander is unfit for leadership, they need be relieved, it isn't unlawful not to carry out their directives or even to move against them should their be cause to do so.
It's betrayal, because it wasn't his call to begin with. Lambert was Lord Seeker, and the Seekers' first duty is to the Divine herself. A Divine that was also very aware of the dangers of announcing a cure, so she kept in secret. Imagine the chaos otherwise.
Seekers don't manage Circles, don't watch over mages. Lamber did only because the mage that tried to kill the Divine was from the White Spire.
But Lambert, as many forget, was not a Templar. He was a Seeker. Worse, he was a traumatized ex-Tevinter Templar with a grudge that still thought of himself as a Templar instead of a Seeker. He failed hard at his supposed duties by trying to play a role that wasn't his. That's my problem with Lambert; he was a good Templar, but a bad Seeker.
I don't recall saying he was? He was however a templar formally so if any one could comprehend the duties and need of one it would be him. And you seem to be more speculative on how in so far he failed, did he move against whom he was sworn to serve? Yes, only however once she proved unfit for command, Did he undermine her efforts or seek to do so? When they threatened magic being let loose upon Thedas? Yes.
The Templars exist to safeguard Mages and the Seeker exists to make sure the Templars do their duty, I'd say he fulfilled that role and more.
And again the action he proposed never was carried out, He can suggest a course of action, but he himself didn't undertake it, you're basically going off the concept of Precogs here or what could have beens, Planning for ultimatums to maintain international stability isn't a fault, and i'd say had those mages just "disappeared" out in the Wastes, the cure research never revealed? We may see a very different future, my point is this.
Words are not action.
"In 1:20 Divine, the Nevarran Accord was signed, and the Inquisition agreed to lower its banner and submit to the authority of the Chantry.["
They were absorbed into the Chantry. They are also described as being the military wing of the ....guess what....Chantry. As such they are under the authority of the Divine. This is no more a run around then saying the Navy Seals are under the command of the President of the United states as he is the Commander in Chief. Just as the Divine would be in the Chantry.
You keep reciting that line despite me never arguing against the validity of it, I never said the Chantry and Templars weren't connected, i even went so far as to say the Chantry directed them, But i also pointed out that there are structures within both, rules and regulations within both, Mindsets and opinions within both. They are separate entities even if one was beholden to the other.
And this Militant organization unlike your allegory has the right to dissolve its attachment to said Commander and chief, it had the right to become its own beholden master again.
Even with that, Lambert's treason came first, when he overstepped his "area of control" as a Seeker.
Isn't treason to decide Orders aren't worth following anymore from an inept commander.
You keep reciting that line despite me never arguing against the validity of it, I never said the Chantry and Templars weren't connected, i even went so far as to say the Chantry directed them, But i also pointed out that there are structures within both, rules and regulations within both, Mindsets and opinions within both. They are separate entities even if one was beholden to the other.
And this Militant organization unlike your allegory has the right to dissolve its attachment to said Commander and chief, it had the right to become its own beholden master again.
I was referring to the fact that they submitted to the Chantry IE became part of it. How did it work out for the Confederate states of America when they thought they could dissolve their attachment?
The templars are in no way shape or form separate from the chantry.
Isn't treason to decide Orders aren't worth following anymore from an inept commander.
Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do and die:
And again the action he proposed never was carried out, He can suggest a course of action, but he himself didn't undertake it, you're basically going off the concept of Precogs here or what could have beens, Planning for ultimatums to maintain international stability isn't a fault, and i'd say had those mages just "disappeared" out in the Wastes, the cure research never revealed? We may see a very different future, my point is this.
Words are not action.
Well, in a way, yes he can. But he decided to get cute and play the Divine's game.
He lost, and now here we are.
It wasn't his call?
There is something within most Organizations and Governments and Militaries that i do believe we need discuss NOW.
When it becomes evident a commander is unfit for leadership, they need be relieved, it isn't unlawful not to carry out their directives or even to move against them should their be cause to do so.
It isn't an individual's call to judge whether a leader is fit or unfit to be in charge and move against them. Not to carry out orders can be accepted, sometimes (and only in modern times; try to say you were a conscientious objector in the past). If Lambert felt as bad, he should have resigned or asked for a post according to his station. Did he do so? No, he didn't. Instead, abused his position as Lord Seeker to sabotage the Divine.
I don't recall saying he was? He was however a templar formally so if any one could comprehend the duties and need of one it would be him. And you seem to be more speculative on how in so far he failed, did he move against whom he was sworn to serve? Yes, only however once she proved unfit for command, Did he undermine her efforts or seek to do so? When they threatened magic being let loose upon Thedas? Yes.
When I was mentioning Lambert's betrayal, you said "The betrayal in question that really wasn't a betrayal given the Templar oath is to safeguard mankind from magic, and not to be the private army of the Divine, anyway it didn't even happen so how exactly is proposed action a betrayal in truth?". So then, or you were assuming Lamber was a Templar, or you were saying that the ones betraying were the Templars.
What did the Divine do? Ah, yes, researching a cure for Tranquility in secret. That's not even illegal, especially with sanction from the Divine. And he gave the order before knowing about what really happened there, so where was his evidence that the Divine was "unfit for command"?
And again the action he proposed never was carried out, He can suggest a course of action, but he himself didn't undertake it, you're basically going off the concept of Precogs here or what could have beens, Planning for ultimatums to maintain international stability isn't a fault, and i'd say had those mages just "disappeared" out in the Wastes, the cure research never revealed? We may see a very different future, my point is this.
Words are not action.
He gave an order. An order is an action. That the order was acarried out or not in the end doesn't matter, because giving the order in itself is treason.
I was referring to the fact that they submitted to the Chantry IE became part of it. How did it work out for the Confederate states of America when they thought they could dissolve their attachment?
The templars are in no way shape or form separate from the chantry.
How did it work out? Several Former States had clauses installed in place that allowed them to legally leave the Union.
So they did, end of story as far as the "legality" of it goes.
If you're inferring that irregardless of separatist intent that eventually they would rejoin the Union, i'd say there is more then enough alternate examples to see separations within Nations become far more convoluted and complex.
Need i mention i mention Yugoslavia?
Oh and as of 9:40 Dragon? They are, Officially.
I didn't realize this was a Lambert thread now.
How did it work out? Several Former States had clauses installed in place that allowed them to legally leave the Union.
So they did, end of story as far as the "legality" of it goes.
If you're inferring that irregardless of separatist intent that eventually they would rejoin the Union, i'd say there is more then enough alternate examples to see separations within Nations become far more convoluted and complex.
Need i mention i mention Yugoslavia?
Oh and as of 9:40 Dragon? They are, Officially.
Actually no. Only Texas had the legal authority to leave the Union, which the supreme court ruled in 1869 we no longer have, but we did join an illegal rebellion of the other southern states.
You say they left, I say Lambert attempted a coup, whichever side wins will I guess determine the truth of it.
It's about who calls the shots or who should call the shots. An arguably incompetent Divine or a nutjob zealot? You decide! Today on.... WHO'S THAT LEADER!
It isn't an individual's call to judge whether a leader is fit or unfit to be in charge and move against them. Not to carry out orders can be accepted, sometimes (and only in modern times; try to say you were a conscientious objector in the past). If Lambert felt as bad, he should have resigned or asked for a post according to his station. Did he do so? No, he didn't. Instead, abused his position as Lord Seeker to sabotage the Divine.
it isn't? He is the highest ranking authority known with the Seeker Order, add in the fact that he has the authority to dismiss Knight Commanders and assume their Station and I'd say he would be about the person to be able to question the Divine and her orders. It's no diffrent from me then Donitz the Coward Arguing with Hitler, You have people of rank and authority that can push their opinions to the highest echelons of power, and when certain scenario's arise, they can actually achieve command,No more so then she sabotaged the Templars and Seekers ultimately.
When I was mentioning Lambert's betrayal, you said "The betrayal in question that really wasn't a betrayal given the Templar oath is to safeguard mankind from magic, and not to be the private army of the Divine, anyway it didn't even happen so how exactly is proposed action a betrayal in truth?". So then, or you were assuming Lamber was a Templar, or you were saying that the ones betraying were the Templars.
Or i literally meant what i said, The Templar Oath has nothing within it about subservience to the Chantry, And everything to do with being the safeguard against magic, yes the ceremony occurs within a Chantry, but that doesn't negate the fact that they pledge allegiance to the Order and its mission, not the Chantry. And to see their cooperation and history with the Chantry to be so discarded by the Divine? Yes I'd view it as a betrayal and i'd assume so would most Templars.
What did the Divine do? Ah, yes, researching a cure for Tranquility in secret. That's not even illegal, especially with sanction from the Divine. And he gave the order before knowing about what really happened there, so where was his evidence that the Divine was "unfit for command"?
He gave an order. An order is an action. That the order was acarried out or not in the end doesn't matter, because giving the order in itself is treason.
He gave the suggestion to the Knight Captain that under the scenario that results had been achieved, it would be for the best they remain lost,furthermore I'm starting to question if you have even read his reasoning for giving the assignment to Evangeline in the first place. He made it perfectly clear that while the research in his eye likely would possibly be continued under careful templar monitoring if it proved useful, the situation as it sat wouldn't be a good place for its introduction, and magically what do you know? He was right.
The world was too unstable for such a dramatic shift of power from the Templars to the uncertainty of one of their most surefire weapons no longer being effective.
He never gave an order by the way, He never did give a direct command on the issue.
He just prompted that the Knight Captain be aware of the situation, he put too much faith in that failure, it blew up in his face, had he actually given an order? Who knows what would have happened.
I didn't realize this was a Lambert thread now.
Those Divine Supporters are just jealous of his Seeker Swag.
Those Divine Supporters are just jealous of his Seeker Swag.
Still a meatsuit 
Still a meatsuit
You know Elu if he ever appears and isn't possessed I'm going to point out how often you said that, you know.
Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do and die:
Seems to be more you're own mantra FOR them, rather then their own.
I say you he ded.
...THE COLONEL!
You know Fiona and Lambert are literally the same character in different sides. They have so much in common.
Its fanaticism to support one without seeing the other one's point. Though Fiona has been an author's favorite but that's not the point.
Retour en haut