1605 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

Perhaps...

I guess it depends what her mission is. If her mission is to investigate why Kirkwall is having problems, then as you say gathering information with the people in charge and in their organisations is prudent (on the other hand... nothing says she isn't, just that she has not talked to Elthina).

On the other hand... if the mission is, as she claims, to investigate rebellion and if it is spurned on by outside sources then visting the local market won't do a lot of good, will it? Whether Meredith is being too heavy-handed is not relevant to the question (other than making it a prime target for destabilizing elements)?

I wouldn't be so quick to call her incompetent since we know so little of her actual mission and what the office of the Divine does and does not know.

There's two other considerations:
First, is whether or not Meredith at that point actually have done something wrong according to Chantry law or not (and more crucially, whether it can be proven). Because if not, then no rebuke or dismissal can be ordered. And that also skewers the perception of Val Royeux from "what are we doing wrong here?" to "Why is it working better everywhere else? What is different with Kirkwall?".

The second one is if it lies within Justinia's jurisdiction to interfere personally in Templar affairs. She's at the top of the ladder, yes. But that does not mean it's her job to personally micromanage knight-commanders. There might very well be a rank inbetween her and knight commanders (the knigh-vigilant of White spire has been mentioned before) or fall in the jurisdiction of the Seekers.
At which point her sending and agent to investigate a templar would be like stepping on the toes of the entire establishment... with steelclad boots.

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK wrote...

On the other hand... if the mission is, as she claims, to investigate rebellion and if it is spurned on by outside sources then visting the local market won't do a lot of good, will it? Whether Meredith is being too heavy-handed is not relevant to the question (other than making it a prime target for destabilizing elements)?

I strongly disagree.  If you are there to investigate a rebellion, then you want to find out as much about the situation as you can including the causes and grievances of all sides.  This can require uncover and very passive observing roles that last months if not years.

I do know that had Lelianna spend even five minutes in the Gallows Market in the guise of a normal shopper, she could have learned from overhead conversation alone far more than she ever did by leaping to a conclusion and running with it.

So yes, I call her incompetant at least in the Faith quest which was very badly written.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK wrote...

There's two other considerations:
First, is whether or not Meredith at that point actually have done something wrong according to Chantry law or not (and more crucially, whether it can be proven). Because if not, then no rebuke or dismissal can be ordered. And that also skewers the perception of Val Royeux from "what are we doing wrong here?" to "Why is it working better everywhere else? What is different with Kirkwall?".

This is a big yes on two parts.  First of all, Meredith has taken unlawful secular power.  Templars aren't permitted (see Ser Irminric of DAO) to hold noble titles or noble power.  Meredith is holding the power of the Viscount and by her own admission is actively blocking any attempt to replace the Viscount.  While Templar interference has become (too) common in Kirkwall the last couple of centuries, it's still against Chantry law.

The other involves tranquility.  With Ser Alrik's letter and even a minimal amount of investigation, it's possible to prove that either Meredith has been using the Rite of Tranquility illegally or she should have known her subordinates were.  It's against the law to impose Tranquility on a Harrowed mage without the consent of the First Enchanter (which is something I think we can agree Orsino would never give).  Indeed I know this fact made it through to the Divine because it helped trigger the events of Asunder.

The second one is if it lies within Justinia's jurisdiction to interfere personally in Templar affairs. She's at the top of the ladder, yes. But that does not mean it's her job to personally micromanage knight-commanders. There might very well be a rank inbetween her and knight commanders (the knigh-vigilant of White spire has been mentioned before) or fall in the jurisdiction of the Seekers.
At which point her sending and agent to investigate a templar would be like stepping on the toes of the entire establishment... with steelclad boots.

If the people beneath you aren't getting the job done, then it's absolutely her job to step in, Steel-Clad boots and all, and start kicking posterior until the job DOES get done.  I blame much of what happened in Asunder on flat-out institutional failure, ie the Chantry didn't supervise and hold their Templars accountable for so long that when a Divine finally tried, the fecal matter hit the fan.

-Polaris

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

I strongly disagree.  If you are there to investigate a rebellion, then you want to find out as much about the situation as you can including the causes and grievances of all sides.  This can require uncover and very passive observing roles that last months if not years.

I do know that had Lelianna spend even five minutes in the Gallows Market in the guise of a normal shopper, she could have learned from overhead conversation alone far more than she ever did by leaping to a conclusion and running with it.

So yes, I call her incompetant at least in the Faith quest which was very badly written.

I can agree with that the presentation could be better. Leliana does very little to give us confidence in that scene on it's own. Mostly because, as you point out, it is incredibly doubtful that the Resolutionists are the true cause (and if they were, then we needed a lot more spotlight on them to show this) and very unclear what she's actually there for.

The latter is though why I refrain from agreeing to call her incompetent. I can't say someone's doing a bad job if I do not know what they're supposed to be doing. All I know is that she's there investigating something to do with the unrest in Kirkwall. But I find it very unclear if it is the unrest itself, threats to Elthina specifically or outside interference. They all strike me as equally likely.

IanPolaris wrote...

This is a big yes
on two parts.  First of all, Meredith has taken unlawful secular power. 
Templars aren't permitted (see Ser Irminric of DAO) to hold noble
titles or noble power.  Meredith is holding the power of the Viscount
and by her own admission is actively blocking any attempt to replace the
Viscount.  While Templar interference has become (too) common in
Kirkwall the last couple of centuries, it's still against Chantry law.

The
other involves tranquility.  With Ser Alrik's letter and even a minimal
amount of investigation, it's possible to prove that either Meredith
has been using the Rite of Tranquility illegally or she should have known
her subordinates were.  It's against the law to impose Tranquility on a
Harrowed mage without the consent of the First Enchanter (which is
something I think we can agree Orsino would never give).  Indeed I know
this fact made it through to the Divine because it helped trigger the
events of Asunder.

Do you have a source saying that templars cannot hold secular power? I cannot find anything that supports that. I agree that it seems to be that way, but I cannot find anything that outright confirms this is so. Circles are neutral, but must templars be?

But even so, Meredith is not actually declaring herself Viscount nor is Kirkwall legally beholden to her. True, noone can be elected without her support and thus de facto she's holding the city hostage. But such things are difficult to prove. It cannot be demonstrated that she's violated Chantry law until she's actually outright given the order to do so. The city being too paralyzed in fear of her intervention to elect a viscount is not against Chantry law per se.

And that's the tricky bit, which also extends to Meredith. Much like with her assuming power, can it be proven that she allowed the tranquilisations to happen? We know it happened yes. But can we prove it? And what if Alrik used trumped up charges? I absolutely agree that Orsino would never agree to give his consent on a whim... but can he argue against Meredith if faked evidence is supplied?
Depending on how well organised the whole thing in, that can make it very difficult to stop legally. Given that we don't know the details of neither law nor the exact ongoings behind the closed walls of the Gallows, it's difficult to argue whether there was a case against Meredith at all or not.

If the people
beneath you aren't getting the job done, then it's absolutely her job to
step in, Steel-Clad boots and all, and start kicking posterior until
the job DOES get done.  I blame much of what happened in Asunder on
flat-out institutional failure, ie the Chantry didn't supervise and hold
their Templars accountable for so long that when a Divine finally
tried, the fecal matter hit the fan.

-Polaris

Oh I agree... there definantely was some sort of institutional failure. Whether it was weak leadership, outright corruption (ie. the lower ranks aren't telling the high ups what is happening), intentionally letting things slip or a combination of all factors is however something I do not have insight it. My guess would be the combination.

That however, does not mean that the Divine can go in and replace a knight commander herself just like that (unless they all directly answer to her). If there is a chain of command, then the "appropriate" way (that's not saying morally right or efficient) to handle it is to put pressure on the higher officers to solve the problem.

Embarrassing men with power... that just gets you enemies. This is in fact exactly what happened in Asunder. It may not have caused the conflict, but the fact that the divine clearly went behind the templar's and seeker's backs clearly enraged them.

[dragonflight288]

IanPolaris wrote....


I strongly disagree. If you are there to investigate a rebellion, then you want to find out as much about the situation as you can including the causes and grievances of all sides. This can require uncover and very passive observing roles that last months if not years.

I do know that had Lelianna spend even five minutes in the Gallows Market in the guise of a normal shopper, she could have learned from overhead conversation alone far more than she ever did by leaping to a conclusion and running with it.

So yes, I call her incompetant at least in the Faith quest which was very badly written.

I usually agree with your posts, but here I'm not sure of.

First, Neither Elthina or Leliana is very forthcoming. Elthina says the Divine is sending an agent to observe the situation, but fears the implications. We don't know exactly which situation is being investigated at the time, or what the Divine is actually planning. Only what Elthina fears will happen.

Then we meet Leliana and the resolutionists. Now this is the only time in the game we meet the resolutionists, and Leliana talks about them as if they're widespread, so I'm pretty sure they are world-wide, and will likely be the mage group in Inquisition who give mages a bad name, but not really essential to the chaos of the situation in Kirkwall as we know (seeing as we're at the center of it.)

However, Leliana doesn't tell Hawke what she's doing. She only tells Hawke information relevant to the task at hand, and only tells him about the resolutionists because they tried to kill Hawke. She simply says all eyes are on Kirkwall and that the Divine is taking the situation very seriously....but doesn't actually say what the situation is. It could be the tension with mages and templars. It could be Meredith being the defacto viscount....similar to how interested the First Warden was in the Grey Warden being the arl of Amaranthine in Awakening, didn't care about the town but about the implications.

Leliana doesn't say she's investigating Meredith, Orsino, the situation with blood mages or templars abusing their power. She gives a brief, and rather vague rundown of the situation, and gives us a message to pass onto Elthina.

Were resolutionists more involved? I don't know. I don't think so otherwise we should have seen more of them. Was Meredith abusing power the reason that Leliana was there? I have no idea. The large number of blood mages in act 3? I have no idea. I don't know what situation that Leliana and Elthina were actually talking about.

On the other hand, it could easily have been executed better in the game, because I felt sort of clue-less and I don't like relying on assumptions about a game before I'm supposed to have an opinion of it.

But I felt that Leliana only gave Hawke the information Hawke needed to do what Elthina asked him to do, and not a scrap of information more than that. I don't call that incompetence, I call that caution. And it's smart not telling people the full scope of what you're doing on a top secret mission.

Of course, whatever the situation actually was probably didn't matter in the end anyway thanks to Anders' actions.

EDIT: And thanks to Meredith jumping the gun and declaring a Right of Annulment on the most barebone of technicalities.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 06 juin 2013 - 03:52 .

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK wrote...

Oh I agree... there definantely was some sort of institutional failure. Whether it was weak leadership, outright corruption (ie. the lower ranks aren't telling the high ups what is happening), intentionally letting things slip or a combination of all factors is however something I do not have insight it. My guess would be the combination.

I think a combination of the above is the safest guess.

That however, does not mean that the Divine can go in and replace a knight commander herself just like that (unless they all directly answer to her). If there is a chain of command, then the "appropriate" way (that's not saying morally right or efficient) to handle it is to put pressure on the higher officers to solve the problem.

The Divine is the Chantry equivalent of the Pope and in the Roman Catholic Church, the Pope most certainly does have the authority to strip any Roman Catholic of religious titles, and i've seen nothing in Dragon Age that suggests the Divine's Power is any less (including excommunicating those that disagree which she did with the Black Divine).

Now, I'll agree that such authority needs to be used carefully and sparingly, but the threat of it is essential.  In this particular case, you had rot and an entrenched sense of entitlement in the Templars that ran all the way to the very top (Lambert).  At some point, if you are in charge, you have to act.

Embarrassing men with power... that just gets you enemies. This is in fact exactly what happened in Asunder. It may not have caused the conflict, but the fact that the divine clearly went behind the templar's and seeker's backs clearly enraged them.

Justina is an idiot.  The problem is that Justina clearly felt that whatever her authority was, she didn't have the clout to directly confront the Seekers and Templars and tried to be cute.  Unsuprisingly, it blew up in her face.  This is often a result of weak leadership, and I consider Justina to be a weak leader at best.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EDIT: And thanks to Meredith jumping the gun and declaring a Right of Annulment on the most barebone of technicalities.

I think this was the most important thing that happened and the thing that finally 'broke' it for the Divine and maybe in general.  I also think (and iirc DG actually agreed with me on this), that it's a good thing Meredith did get killed because had word got back to the Divine, Meredith would have had hell to pay, technically justified or not.

-Polaris

[TK514]

IanPolaris wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EDIT: And thanks to Meredith jumping the gun and declaring a Right of Annulment on the most barebone of technicalities.

I think this was the most important thing that happened and the thing that finally 'broke' it for the Divine and maybe in general.  I also think (and iirc DG actually agreed with me on this), that it's a good thing Meredith did get killed because had word got back to the Divine, Meredith would have had hell to pay, technically justified or not.

-Polaris

I agree the Devine probably would have wanted to bring down sanctions, but I'm not sure it would have happened.  I thinkk Lambert would have shielded Meredith until the split, at which point what the Devine thinks no longer matters and Meredith becomes a valuable asset and loyal supporter.

[IanPolaris]

TK514 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EDIT: And thanks to Meredith jumping the gun and declaring a Right of Annulment on the most barebone of technicalities.

I think this was the most important thing that happened and the thing that finally 'broke' it for the Divine and maybe in general.  I also think (and iirc DG actually agreed with me on this), that it's a good thing Meredith did get killed because had word got back to the Divine, Meredith would have had hell to pay, technically justified or not.

-Polaris

I agree the Devine probably would have wanted to bring down sanctions, but I'm not sure it would have happened.  I thinkk Lambert would have shielded Meredith until the split, at which point what the Devine thinks no longer matters and Meredith becomes a valuable asset and loyal supporter.

The Red Lyrium Sword of corruption and doom says hi.  No matter what I think of Lambert (and it's not complementary), he would not abide by that.  I also think that even Lambert would be hard pressed to protect Meredith.  (Even DG seemed to imply that the fecal matter would have hit the rotory air impeller had she lived.)  I think Lambert could have kept her in the Templars and shielded her from the worst of the Divine's wrath (possibly reassigning her to another luckless circle) but only if the Red Lyrium Sword of Doom wasn't revealed.

-Polaris

[TK514]

I see your point. However, even with The CrazyMaker, she's still a valuable tool. She's just relegated to the sort of tool you point in a direction and get out of the way.

I guess it partially depends on what Lambert's ultimate goal is. Does he really want to return rebel mages to the fold, or would he be just as happy to wipe them all out and start over? If it's the latter, then just give Meredith a pack of his craziest zealots, stick them on the front line and let them be an independent raiding force/big lunatic distraction. If it's the former, then he'd be well served to clandestinely spare her from the Divine's Wrath so that he could be shown to discipline her himself. It's really a win/win for him. Either he's got a Red Lyrium blender to help make puree'd Mage, or he's got a sacrificial lamb to show he's become sensitive to their grievances and understands that they were pushed too far by the crazy mean lady and her ilk.

Then again, it's just as possible he takes The CrazyMaker from her and goes just as bonkers as she did.

I guess in the end it's just as well she turned into a burning statue.

[dragonflight288]

It's a nice thought to think of. The Divine would call retribution on Meredith, would the head of the Seekers Lambert try and protect Meredith? In the end it doesn't matter as she did die. I think Lambert would've tried to keep her from Aeonar or serious demotions, but would want to keep her in a position of some authority because their views are so similar.

As for Leliana and the Resolutionists, I'm willing to wait for Inquisition and hopefully get a lot more answers, but I have to say, I really, REALLY want some answers on that front.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

Do you have a source saying that templars cannot hold secular power? I cannot find anything that supports that. I agree that it seems to be that way, but I cannot find anything that outright confirms this is so. Circles are neutral, but must templars be? 

If I recall correctly, people have brought up Irminric, the templar brother to Bann Alfstanna of the Waking Sea who was imprisoned by Arl Howe.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Do you have a source saying that templars cannot hold secular power? I cannot find anything that supports that. I agree that it seems to be that way, but I cannot find anything that outright confirms this is so. Circles are neutral, but must templars be? 

If I recall correctly, people have brought up Irminric, the templar brother to Bann Alfstanna of the Waking Sea who was imprisoned by Arl Howe.

Yup.  Irminric was forced to give up his rights to Waking Sea in favor of his sister when he joined the Chantry (and the Templars).

-Polaris

[esper]

It is hard to judge Justina when I have never read Asunder, but what I saw in da2 has already soured me on her.

It doesn't matter what her true intention was, she led Grand Cleric Elthina think that she was planning on an Exalthed March, now Elthina isn't the most political accomplished person in Thedas, but for her to think that an Elxalthed March is coming either the Divine cannot communicate (which is a serious problem for a leader) or the Divine did plan an exalthed march.

As for Leliana. Her whole mage line is stupid. Yes, she was attacked by resolutionist, but any competent spy would have known that 'mage' was a polorizing word in Kirkwall, and thus potentially could risk alienating Hawke from the chantry. And since Hawke is the nobles go to person and the city's protector, the whole city by extentention. Since she doesn't change her words according to Hawke's stand (could be derived according to who Hawke sided with at the start of act 3) I can only conclude she didn't bother investigating. Which again mean that either Justina (and thus by extention her left hand) did mean that mages were behind the problems in Kirkwall or Leliana is a serious inept spy that cannot say 'We think that there er serious problems in Kirkwall and would like to get Elthina to safety.'

[Rinshikai10]

If you get the chance Esper, I would recommend reading Asunder. I found that it gives players a chance to learn more about who Justinia is.

Which has resulted in quite a few different views about her.

[esper]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If you get the chance Esper, I would recommend reading Asunder. I found that it gives players a chance to learn more about who Justinia is.

Which has resulted in quite a few different views about her.

I don't mix medias. And it is completely irrellevant. The way the Kirkwall chantry was handled from official side was so bad that I don't care where Justina stand morally.

Either she is much like Elthina, a good person but utterly incapable of understanding leadership. (Such as trying to go behind your armies back without securing that you have allies in the army.) Or she is morally bankrupt.

Either way it doesn't matter if I like her or not, she has proved that she cannot handle leadership and thus she is a danger. The chantry stands a very good chance of splitting into at least two fractions under her. In fact with the templars going rouge it has already happened.

[EmperorSahlertz]

TK514 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EDIT: And thanks to Meredith jumping the gun and declaring a Right of Annulment on the most barebone of technicalities.

I think this was the most important thing that happened and the thing that finally 'broke' it for the Divine and maybe in general.  I also think (and iirc DG actually agreed with me on this), that it's a good thing Meredith did get killed because had word got back to the Divine, Meredith would have had hell to pay, technically justified or not.

-Polaris

I agree the Devine probably would have wanted to bring down sanctions, but I'm not sure it would have happened.  I thinkk Lambert would have shielded Meredith until the split, at which point what the Devine thinks no longer matters and Meredith becomes a valuable asset and loyal supporter.

Lambert didn't strike me as a man, who would shield a complete lunatic, who obviously misused her power. Lambert was very adamant at Templars doing their duty, and Meredith failed hers. I actually think Lambert would be rather disappointed in her.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Do you have a source saying that templars cannot hold secular power? I cannot find anything that supports that. I agree that it seems to be that way, but I cannot find anything that outright confirms this is so. Circles are neutral, but must templars be? 

If I recall correctly, people have brought up Irminric, the templar brother to Bann Alfstanna of the Waking Sea who was imprisoned by Arl Howe.

Yup.  Irminric was forced to give up his rights to Waking Sea in favor of his sister when he joined the Chantry (and the Templars).

-Polaris

As I recall, it is never specified who of the two is the eldest. Or even that Irminric gave up anything to become a Templar. So that whole quest doesn't really shed any light on the issue.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TK514 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EDIT: And thanks to Meredith jumping the gun and declaring a Right of Annulment on the most barebone of technicalities.

I think this was the most important thing that happened and the thing that finally 'broke' it for the Divine and maybe in general.  I also think (and iirc DG actually agreed with me on this), that it's a good thing Meredith did get killed because had word got back to the Divine, Meredith would have had hell to pay, technically justified or not.

-Polaris

I agree the Devine probably would have wanted to bring down sanctions, but I'm not sure it would have happened.  I thinkk Lambert would have shielded Meredith until the split, at which point what the Devine thinks no longer matters and Meredith becomes a valuable asset and loyal supporter.

Lambert didn't strike me as a man, who would shield a complete lunatic, who obviously misused her power. Lambert was very adamant at Templars doing their duty, and Meredith failed hers. I actually think Lambert would be rather disappointed in her.

And Lambert also tried to tried to kill Pharamond to prevent others from finding out that tranquility can be reversed. And Lambert went against the Divine's orders and outright attacked the mages in the college before a single vote on suceding from the chantry could be passed (and thus guaranteed the survivors, whether by be libertarians or loyalists to realize that no matter what happened, they would always have the short end of the stick and would probably be killed anyway, ensuring they would vote to remove themselves from the Chantry) and ordered them to give investigation of Rhys over to him whenthe Divine said they could handle it.

Yup, paragon of upholding templar ideals, that one.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Do you have a source saying that templars cannot hold secular power? I cannot find anything that supports that. I agree that it seems to be that way, but I cannot find anything that outright confirms this is so. Circles are neutral, but must templars be? 

If I recall correctly, people have brought up Irminric, the templar brother to Bann Alfstanna of the Waking Sea who was imprisoned by Arl Howe.

Yup.  Irminric was forced to give up his rights to Waking Sea in favor of his sister when he joined the Chantry (and the Templars).

-Polaris

As I recall, it is never specified who of the two is the eldest. Or even that Irminric gave up anything to become a Templar. So that whole quest doesn't really shed any light on the issue.

If you have Alistair with you, he adds a few things on the situation in, mainly mentioning the lyrium withdrawal, but Imniric does say that he felt unqualified to be the heir, and became a templar and allowed Alfstanna to become Bann, because as a templar he would have no authority to wield secular power.

He doesn't say it in those words but it's made pretty clear that's the case. Ah well, I'm replaying Origins again at the moment as a way to prepare for Inquisition (I'm saving on the Cloud, as I suspect that's how we're going to transfer data) and when I get to that point, I'll be able to say more accurately what is actually said.

[Rinshikai10]

esper wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

If you get the chance Esper, I would recommend reading Asunder. I found that it gives players a chance to learn more about who Justinia is.

Which has resulted in quite a few different views about her.

I don't mix medias. And it is completely irrellevant. The way the Kirkwall chantry was handled from official side was so bad that I don't care where Justina stand morally.

Either she is much like Elthina, a good person but utterly incapable of understanding leadership. (Such as trying to go behind your armies back without securing that you have allies in the army.) Or she is morally bankrupt.

Either way it doesn't matter if I like her or not, she has proved that she cannot handle leadership and thus she is a danger. The chantry stands a very good chance of splitting into at least two fractions under her. In fact with the templars going rouge it has already happened.

The bold is basically my view on Justinia up until this point. An ok person at first glance, but lacks the foreknowledge to make wise decisions when they matter. I find what she says, and what she does contradict one another only making things worse then they already are.

Thats just my opinion, and until I can see her do something effectively with her position, I'm unlikely to side her her no matter who good her intentions were.         

[Rinshikai10]

@Esper
Just to get a clear understanding, are you saying that Justinia chose her allies poorly? Or am I reading this wrong?

[esper]

@Rinskikai10.
The Divine chooses poorely in general. It is hard to see where precisely the faulty decision lies, sicne we doesn't see the precise mechanism. We just see the end result:
Grand Cleric Elthina thinks an Exalted Marci was coming (Not clear if it actually was or not), Leliana made a poor job of representing the Divine(did not check the situation and risked alienating the champion from the chantry) and in the end the mages and templars broke free from the chantry and Justina risks that some Mothers actually agrees with the templars (or just plain is unsatisfasfied with her) and thus breaking free too.

If there is one thing the Divine has not shown it is leadership skills.

[Rinshikai10]

Do you care if I reveal any info from Asunder Esper? 

Because IMHO one of her biggest blunders was believing that Wynne could be her voice to the Mages. Instead of talking to the Grant Enchanter who is in practice the voice of the Circle and adviser to the Divine.

Wynne IMHO has a borderline apologist mindset, that worked against her after she lead the vote not to separate. Earning her the distrust of her fellow Mages.(Who same called a trader after the Battle of Kirkwall.)

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 08 juin 2013 - 08:42 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Do you have a source saying that templars cannot hold secular power? I cannot find anything that supports that. I agree that it seems to be that way, but I cannot find anything that outright confirms this is so. Circles are neutral, but must templars be? 

If I recall correctly, people have brought up Irminric, the templar brother to Bann Alfstanna of the Waking Sea who was imprisoned by Arl Howe.

Yup.  Irminric was forced to give up his rights to Waking Sea in favor of his sister when he joined the Chantry (and the Templars).

-Polaris

As I recall, it is never specified who of the two is the eldest. Or even that Irminric gave up anything to become a Templar. So that whole quest doesn't really shed any light on the issue.

If you have Alistair with you, he adds a few things on the situation in, mainly mentioning the lyrium withdrawal, but Imniric does say that he felt unqualified to be the heir, and became a templar and allowed Alfstanna to become Bann, because as a templar he would have no authority to wield secular power.

He doesn't say it in those words but it's made pretty clear that's the case. Ah well, I'm replaying Origins again at the moment as a way to prepare for Inquisition (I'm saving on the Cloud, as I suspect that's how we're going to transfer data) and when I get to that point, I'll be able to say more accurately what is actually said.

So basically he gave up his inheritance because he wanted to be Templar, and not because he was a Templar, and thus this case proves nothing, and cant be used as an example of the Templars' incapability to hold secular power.