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[TTTX]

 Yeah they protected suspected criminal and tried go their own way totally fine *lambert passes by group of magisters that try visit black city second time waves his hand and says* heh not my job im to watch templars you can continue.   

He could have waited to take Rhys after the meeting and he doesn't lead the Templars in other words he could just take in the commander of Templar of the white tower and make him do what he should do take in Rhys and let them do their job, but instead he decides to become a mage B**** because he followed the tone of Adrian's violin and takes the actions that leads rebellion.

 

 

Incorrect, The Divine ordered Lambert to give them a conclave to discuss the tranquility "cure".

 

He did, He didn't order it closed until the topic of sedition came up.

 

Off Topic, Against the Law, its like the Parliament of Britain discussing the breaking away of London from the United Kingdom into it's own city state.

breaking away is something mages have been discussion for years at that point, personally I doubt they would have voted for breaking from the circle let alone the chantry most mages knows that's a bad idea, even Anders acknowledged that in DA:A and he is/was pretty anti circle back then. People like Fiona and Adrian fuel the flames of war inside the circle along with people like Lambert and Meredith doesn't make a situation better it actually it makes it worse mostly because they are so easily goatee into making the wrong decisions.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Except if you leave your family members, you can either write to them at least to let them know you are okay. Most communication in the Circles is implied to be read by the Templars before being sent or recieved, hence why they are often forced to find other ways to smuggle out messages to people. Unless you are able to send a missive to your friends in another Circle and hope it gets there, they'll likely never know if you were alive or dead?

 

And how can you say Mages live like Kings?

 

Last time I looked, Kings were able to freely roam around where and when they wished and not under permanent house arrest? Sure both have guards looking over them, but the differnce is that most guards with a King are going to protect him, rather than want to protect people from him like Templars do with Circle Mages (even if protecting them is also in their mandate).

 

Kings also aren't forced to bathe with over a dozen other people present, not thrown in the dungeon if they sneak out in the middle of the night for a midnight snack, or forced to find a dark corner or empty room they can have a quickie in before someone inevitably will show up to ruin the mood?

 

We know they can write to others so well.

 

They live like kings pretty much as they have such standarts save just with that they can't leave...

 

Another pro-mage lie just to make circle make seem at least little tiny little bit abusive we know it is false with bath as they bath in private there are even empty rumors that templars secretly watch them so well kicked out.Besides mages above rank of apprentice have own rooms.Ehh i love crush pro-mages illusions

 

 

He could have waited to take Rhys after the meeting and he doesn't lead the Templars in other words he could just take in the commander of Templar of the white tower and make him do what he should do take in Rhys and let them do their job, but instead he decides to become a mage B**** because he followed the tone of Adrian's violin and takes the actions that leads rebellion.

 

Why he should wait when mages are arguing about leaving templars and chantry now it was crushing both problems with 1 action and he did. No the don't takes action that leads to rebelion he takes action that prevent rebelion if divine wouldn't set mages free mages would at best have rebellion in afterlife and rest would see they have no chance and better stay silent. 

[Sifr]

 

They live like kings pretty much as they have such standarts save just with that they can't leave...

 

Another pro-mage lie just to make circle make seem at least little tiny little bit abusive we know it is false with bath as they bath in private there are even empty rumors that templars secretly watch them so well kicked out.Besides mages above rank of apprentice have own rooms.Ehh i love crush pro-mages illusions

 

So being unable to leave and subject to curfews would make them more like prisoners, no? They're not even pampered enough to say that they live in the lap of luxury. Heck, Kinloch used to be an Avvar fortress and the Gallows was a Tevinter prison, hardly the sort of palatial barbie dream-houses you're painting them as?

 

Forgive me for being rude, but it seems naive to say that just because they're not in chains means that they're living in the height of luxury, comparable to that of the nobility. And as someone a few pages back said, a gilded cage is still a cage?

 

Rhys describes the room he bathed in Asunder as having several bath tubs, showing that communal bathing does happen, as was previously mentioned in Origins when the two apprentices mentioned that they're afraid the Templars watch them. Even if those above the rank of apprentice, do have private rooms, it really depends what Circle you belong to. In Kinloch, we saw that while they did have private rooms (and a bath tub), none of them had any doors...

 

I don't mind a good rebuttal, as it's part of what makes discussing things fun (even if we've been a little OT since this thread is meant to be about Justinia), but idealy, I'd be more convinced with evidence to back it up than saying it's either lies or simply pro-Mage proganda?

 

[Master Warder Z_]

we saw that while they did have private rooms (and a bath tub), none of them had any doors...

 

They had doors in the private rooms in the White Spire.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So being unable to leave and subject to curfews would make them more like prisoners, no? They're not even pampered enough to say that they live in the lap of luxury. Heck, Kinloch used to be an Avvar fortress and the Gallows was a Tevinter prison, hardly the sort of palatial barbie dream-houses you're painting them as?

 

Forgive me for being rude, but it seems naive to say that just because they're not in chains means that they're living in the height of luxury, comparable to that of the nobility. And as someone a few pages back said, a gilded cage is still a cage?

 

Rhys describes the room he bathed in Asunder as having several bath tubs, showing that communal bathing does happen, as was previously mentioned in Origins when the two apprentices mentioned that they're afraid the Templars watch them. Even if those above the rank of apprentice, do have private rooms, it really depends what Circle you belong to. In Kinloch, we saw that while they did have private rooms (and a bath tub), none of them had any doors...

 

I don't mind a good rebuttal, as it's part of what makes discussing things fun (even if we've been a little OT since this thread is meant to be about Justinia), but idealy, I'd be more convinced with evidence to back it up than saying it's either lies or simply pro-Mage proganda?

 

No it isn't naive we saw their conditions in ferelden as well description how luxury circle in orlais is.Gallows were only location you never saw in what conditions mages lived i doubt they had bad...

 

I don't remember that... not to mention that was nothing than an empty rumor as i said pretty much like that the warden had sex with isabela and nug that circle mages in witch hunt were spreading.

[Sifr]

 

I don't remember that... not to mention that was nothing than an empty rumor as i said pretty much like that the warden had sex with isabela and nug that circle mages in witch hunt were spreading.

 

But those female mages were talking about themselves in that instance, that they thought some of the Templars were watching them when they weren't supposed to during their bathing? If they're spreading a rumour, it's accidental at best because they thought it was true because it possibly happened to them as well?  The story about the nugs meanwhile is more of an obvious rumour, since it's origins can only have come as hearsay from someone else.

 

Given that those same female Mages talk about Cullen having a crush on a female Mage Warden as well, they're gossiping does contain some elements of truth? And since you can have sex with Isabela and end up in bed with a bunch of nugs as well, the rumour might be entirely true!

 

[TTTX]

Why he should wait when mages are arguing about leaving templars and chantry now it was crushing both problems with 1 action and he did. No the don't takes action that leads to rebelion he takes action that prevent rebelion if divine wouldn't set mages free mages would at best have rebellion in afterlife and rest would see they have no chance and better stay silent. 

because that's not the first time mages have talked about leaving the circle even the chantry for years before Asunder happened, it's probably why one of the reasons Justina decided find a way to appease the mages after all you push someone long enough sooner or later they will push back.

[TheKomandorShepard]

But those female mages were talking about themselves in that instance, that they thought some of the Templars were watching them when they weren't supposed to during their bathing? If they're spreading a rumour, it's accidental at best because they thought it was true because it possibly happened to them as well?  The story about the nugs meanwhile is more of an obvious rumour, since it's origins can only have come as hearsay from someone else.

 

Given that those same female Mages talk about Cullen having a crush on a female Mage Warden as well, they're gossiping does contain some elements of truth? And since you can have sex with Isabela and end up in bed with a bunch of nugs as well, the rumour might be entirely true!

 

And how the hell they would watch them and they didn't know that ? girl even said that it hope it isn't true what means they don't stand there and watch them unless i said secretly as i said pretty much nothing more than gossip and no you don't have to sleep with isabela and nugs yet still they think you did.

 

 

because that's not the first time mages have talked about leaving the circle even the chantry for years before Asunder happened, it's probably why one of the reasons Justina decided find a way to appease the mages after all you push someone long enough sooner or later they will push back.

First they shouldn't even discuss that in first place at it wasn't about that topic and divine failed spectacularly many times if that was her goal and ultimately caused mage-templar war then she was searching for someone to fix mess she caused... As i said pesants got their a** kicked that prevented them from future riots and if you tried appease them you only encouraged same here.

[dragonflight288]

They had doors in the private rooms in the White Spire.

 

But not in Kinloch Hold, and mages were kept in cells in the Gallows. 

 

Saying that mages in the heart of Orlais and the Chantry have doors does not take away the fact that based on what we've seen in two games the mages don't have privacy, and how they're treated is always dependent on how much a Knight-Commander is willing to crack down on his own men. 

 

Gregoire seemed alright, especially since he was willing to take Irving's word over Cullen's, but Meredith didn't accept anyone's word other than her own and turned a blind eye to the clear abuses the mages under her charge were suffering, and then used their acts of desperation as justification for being so hard on them in the first place. 

 

Any system that allows such abuses, even if it is dependent on those in charge is not a system worth defending. 

 

Simply bringing up doors in the White Citadel does not take away the fact that Kinloch Hold does not have doors and in Kirkwall mages are kept in cells. 

[Master Warder Z_]

But not in Kinloch Hold

 

Incorrect, in the Calling it was quite clearly pointed out that the room Duncan had coitus with the young female mage  possessed a door, and was in fact a private room.

 

Granted this what...two decades before hand, but it is clearly pointed out that Kinloch hold at one point had doors, this could be a rendering design choice by the game developers, it could have been many things that don't go beyond an anesthetic choice.

 

 

and mages were kept in cells in the Gallows. 

 

Given we only see a tiny portion of the circle at Kirkwall, i'd say we as gamers do not know what the living conditions were in truth, even in the final battle we only see a bit of it.

 

Do you honestly think the first enchanter, the senior enchanters and senior magi all were housed in cells?

 

I strongly doubt it.

 

 

does not take away the fact that based on what we've seen in two games the mages don't have privacy

 

Given what results when they have privacy, i can understand that reasoning.

 

Crud as a citizen of the western hemisphere i figure you would grasp that concept, the privacy it seems Americans are entitled to is that of their own head these days.

 

 

Any system that allows such abuses, even if it is dependent on those in charge is not a system worth defending. 

 

According to you and your position, perhaps.

 

 

Simply bringing up doors in the White Citadel does not take away the fact that Kinloch Hold does not have doors and in Kirkwall mages are kept in cells. 

 

In the same regard that you bringing up the hyperbole and inaccuracy of both those situations does not take away that the circle keeps the common people safe from the dangers of magic the majority of the time.

[Rinshikai10]

Also in her defense, she did at least try to diffuse the situation. But the mages saw it as too little too late and the Seekers, specificially Lambert saw it as a betrayal of everything they stood for as they didn't want the mags getting any new rights or privileges at all. 

 

Well said. It's a shame that it ended they way it did, but the price of change is high, and no one is exempt from paying this toll

[Master Warder Z_]

Well said. It's a shame that it ended they way it did, but the price of change is high, and no one is exempt from paying this toll

 

That reminded me of this.

 

[Rinshikai10]

I'm not really a fan of country music fan, but this is alright.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm not really of country music fan, but this is alright.

 

I figured a parody would suit Justinia well.

 

Given she is an ineffective, weak Divine who will not do her divine given duty.

[Gervaise]

I'd just like the point out here that I think the reason the Circles continued as they did for so long is largely down to the fact that the children of nobility are treated differently there from the children of peasants.   

 

The children of nobility are allowed to keep contact with their families, I suspect that their families can pay for them to have better living conditions.   A noble in Cumberland gifted the premises that were used for the Circle simply so her daughter could live in the state to which she was accustomed.   They can arrange/bribe for them to have specific Templars as their guards.  They can visit them on a regular basis, so on the whole are based near to their family home.  After Connor went to the Circle, Eamon was able to arrange for him to be sent to Tevinter for specialised training.     Naturally one would assume that if the child of a noble was abused or mistreated, their family would hear of it.   I doubt if the child of a noble could be made tranquil against their will.

 

Children of peasants never see their family again.   They are often sent deliberately far away so there is no chance of a visit.  They are not permitted to maintain contact with their families even by letter.    If they are mistreated/abused the only person they can look to for protection is the First Enchanter and if that person is not bothered, hard lines.   They can be made tranquil against their will; Jowan did not want to be made tranquil and they were planning to do so simply because they thought he posed a risk. They only get sent to Tevinter as part of an official party, never able to go by choice. 

 

To my mind part of the reason the nobility support the system is because they don't want mages among the peasantry possibly challenging their power.   It is noticeable that in Tevinter the Magisters get round this problem by immediately promoting mages, even from non mage families, to the nobility.   Elsewhere of course those in power are not mages and obviously want to keep it that way. 

 

Justinia was treading dangerous ground because she was upsetting the status quo.   That is why noble and Templars were conspiring against her at the beginning of Asunder (the mage could never have accessed the ball without the assistance of both nobles and Templars).   

 

I might also ask how Fiona ever became Grand Enchanter?    She was not a First Enchanter or even still part of the Circle system.   Yet she claims she left the Grey Wardens with the specific purpose of engineering change.   How did she know she would get voted in?    Why did she get voted in?    Why did the Chantry/Templars allow it?   Was this another of Justinia's little schemes to try and bring about change from behind the scenes?

[Mistic]

I might also ask how Fiona ever became Grand Enchanter?    She was not a First Enchanter or even still part of the Circle system.   Yet she claims she left the Grey Wardens with the specific purpose of engineering change.   How did she know she would get voted in?    Why did she get voted in?    Why did the Chantry/Templars allow it?   Was this another of Justinia's little schemes to try and bring about change from behind the scenes?

 

Those are very good questions. Of course, we don't know what happened in the 30 years between The Calling and Asunder. It's enough time to get back to the Circle, become an Enchanter and then get voted in a conclave. 

 

The real problem is that she was an open Libertarian, while the Aequitarians are the majority. The only other major fraternity is the Loyalist, and they would never vote a Libertarian as Grand Enchanter, so the Aequitarians had to support her. Why? A power play? A change of heart? A way to pressure the Loyalists or calm down the Libertarians?

 

One of the major theories so far is that many of the strange and too coincidental events that appeared in the books are part of a large conspiracy, including the failed assassination attempt on the Divine you mentioned. And no, not a noble-elitist conspiracy, but an Hydra-like conspiracy. The cult of the Elder One now is the main suspect.

[Rinshikai10]

@Gervaise

 

If I had to guess how Fiona became Grand Enchanter, I'd guess that it was the Wardens that helped to got her in. Briaus the last Grand Enchanter is from Hossberg in the Anderfels, and likely had contact with the Wardens on a regular basis. It may even be possible that Fiona went to the Circle in Hossberg to recruit Mages, and saw that things needed to change.

 

I'm betting that like some nobles in Orlais, the Wardens in the Anderfels have influence within the Circle.

 

But I could be entirely wrong.  

[Master Warder Z_]

The cult of the Elder One now is the main suspect.

 

I blame the elves

[TheJediSaint]

I blame the elves

You always blame the elves.

[Hellion Rex]

 

One of the major theories so far is that many of the strange and too coincidental events that appeared in the books are part of a large conspiracy, including the failed assassination attempt on the Divine you mentioned. And no, not a noble-elitist conspiracy, but an Hydra-like conspiracy. The cult of the Elder One now is the main suspect.

Yup. It's all coming together now.

[Master Warder Z_]

You always blame the elves.

 

More often then not i am right though!

 

The reason for the circle of kirkwall's corruption? An Elf!

 

The reason Hawke was so distracted by another man's posterior!  he was an Elf!

 

The Idiotic Grand Enchanter who kicked off a world war? An Elf!

 

The elf who let Ser Michel deserve the ward stone and free a forbidden one? An Elf!

 

Who wishes to prolong the Orlesian civil war to supposedly benefit elves? An Elf!

 

Elves are the root of every problem in Thedas!

[TheJediSaint]

Elves are the root of every problem in Thedas!

So what do you get if you Square an Elf?

[Master Warder Z_]

So what do you get if you Square an Elf?

 

What?

[TheJediSaint]

What?

Math joke.  You said Elves were the root of all problems and I made a joke about squaring them.  Because squar-root.  Nevermind.

[Master Warder Z_]

Math joke.

 

I was asking what was an elf squared.

 

I gathered that it was relating to mathematics, i was curious to see where you would take it.