1605 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

TK514 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EDIT: And thanks to Meredith jumping the gun and declaring a Right of Annulment on the most barebone of technicalities.

I think this was the most important thing that happened and the thing that finally 'broke' it for the Divine and maybe in general.  I also think (and iirc DG actually agreed with me on this), that it's a good thing Meredith did get killed because had word got back to the Divine, Meredith would have had hell to pay, technically justified or not.

-Polaris

I agree the Devine probably would have wanted to bring down sanctions, but I'm not sure it would have happened.  I thinkk Lambert would have shielded Meredith until the split, at which point what the Devine thinks no longer matters and Meredith becomes a valuable asset and loyal supporter.

Lambert didn't strike me as a man, who would shield a complete lunatic, who obviously misused her power. Lambert was very adamant at Templars doing their duty, and Meredith failed hers. I actually think Lambert would be rather disappointed in her.

And Lambert also tried to tried to kill Pharamond to prevent others from finding out that tranquility can be reversed. And Lambert went against the Divine's orders and outright attacked the mages in the college before a single vote on suceding from the chantry could be passed (and thus guaranteed the survivors, whether by be libertarians or loyalists to realize that no matter what happened, they would always have the short end of the stick and would probably be killed anyway, ensuring they would vote to remove themselves from the Chantry) and ordered them to give investigation of Rhys over to him whenthe Divine said they could handle it.

Yup, paragon of upholding templar ideals, that one.

He wanted to prevent an illegal vote of mage rebellion. I'd say that sounds like something a Templar would do. I know that you aren't a follower of Xil's "natural" morality, but it is only one page ago, that Xil claimed that Adrian was fully justified in killing Pharamond, and then framing Rhys. I see no reason, following Xil's, who is apparently the Empress of all natural order and undertanding, reasoning, that Lamert shouldn't be allowed to do the same, to do what he believes is right.

[Rinshikai10]

@EmperorSahlertz

It was my understanding that Lambert is a Seeker not a Templar. Who's job is to weed out corruption within the Chantry and Templar Ranks. Not act as a Templar Vigilant, and do basically the opposite of what his Order's name sack is, which is to find the truth, not hide it. He is allowing personal feelings get in the way of his duty. Which IMHO makes him as Idealistic as both Wynne and The Divine. Seeing what could happen rather then what is happening.

[Rinshikai10]

Its too early to speculate but...

The new trailer makes me wonder if the Chantry even exists in the next game.(Faith lays in Ashes) A possible foreshadowing of the Chantrys destruction.

Could the survey talking about the Chantry leadership being destroyed be true? Could Justinia be dead from a magical explosion?

Any thoughts?

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 11 juin 2013 - 11:36 .

[azarhal]

The war room map in the trailer shows a single tent on Val-Royaux and a trebuchet, which seems to mean under siege, toward the city. Beside the camps north there are no "ids" on the one south, so hard to say who's who on that map.

Although, I really doubt that Cassandra would be leading a siege on something if the Grand Cathedral was under siege itself and the Chantry still existed. Well, unless she was leading the siege on the Grand Cathedral because it was taken over by heretics. It's also possible Cassandra isn't affiliated with the Chantry anymore. :/

[Rinshikai10]

I find it hard to believe that Cassandra would leave the Divine after all that has happened.

If Val-Royaux is under attack, I think there is a strong chance that its the Grand Dukes forces trying to take the Capital when Celene is gone. (Possibly near Jadar.) If Justinia is alive I would guess that she is in the capital.

As for the map I think that big Camp in the north is the Wardens, that statue in the back looks like a Gryphon to me. There also appears to be a fleet in the Waking Sea, acting as a bottle neck. My guess would be the Qunari. I see a the Circle camp north of Waking Sea, but I have no idea what that one in the corner is.

That's just my opinion at this point. I really want more info.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 12 juin 2013 - 03:01 .

[Rinshikai10]

With all this Warden vs Seeker debating on the forums, I guess I'll add my own theory to this one.

If there is a conflict between the two groups, it will likely be going to happen at the Adamant fortress in the Western Approach.

The reasons why I believe this are
- Its a location that is affiliated with the Grey Warden Order.
-Its in Orlais which is from what we know so far, the location for the next game.
-It has a very thin veil that would only get thinner after roughly one thousand people dead there during Asunder.
- Their is a chance that Justinia does not want the public to know about what happened there (all the death due to her decisions). Because it can be used to turn the faithful masses against her.
- I doubt that the Wardens would leave one of their bases which could be connected to the Deep Roads in the hands of non Wardens. I'm willing to believe that they would have contacts there just to be safe, should the Darkspawn try anything. (After the events of Asunder, its possible that the Order sent Wardens to investigate, and Justinia sends Cassandra and wants left of the Chantry military to insure that nothing is found.

Its pure speculation at this point but, this is the closest hypothesis I can think of with how little we know.

Any thoughts?

[azarhal]

opinionated

Rinshikai10 wrote...

I find it hard to believe that Cassandra would leave the Divine after all that has happened.

and I don't. I guess we have a different perception of the character.

Rinshikai10 wrote...

There also appears to be a fleet in the Waking Sea, acting as a bottle neck.

I think they are stopping people from leaving Halamshiral by boat. It is under siege, see the little trebuchet/catapult toward it on the map. Of course, it could represent a general blockade over the Walking Sea as well.

As for the Grey Warden fortress being attacked. I suspect the trailer was edited to make it look like Cassandra was attacking it, but I suspect it is not the case.

[Rinshikai10]

Would you being willing to elaborate on your views of Cassandra azarhal? At this point I don't have a good perception of her other then the DotS movie. Which did not sell me on her character as a whole.

If Justinia is revealed to be alive when the game is released I don't see why Cassandra would leave her post. However, if Justinia is killed is a magical blast like the survey says about the chantry leadership. I could see her wanting revenge, and doing that jumping to conclusions act that she seems to do.

When it comes to the map shown in the trailer, I have a hard time seeing some of the pieces.

I agree with you that trailer may just be showing various scenes from different battles. However, at the same time I would not put it past the Seekers or Templars to attack the Wardens. They have non chantry controlled Mages within their ranks. Some of them even being Blood Mages.
This gets backed up by some of the events in DAOA (Rylock) and DA2 (Cassandra).

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 16 juin 2013 - 12:36 .

[azarhal]

I see Cassandra as a pragmatic interested in the truth and "stability" well before being a Divine/Chantry-loyalist. She's also a loose cannon. See Mary Kirby's tweet for the expression, I used to go with "rebellious" before I saw what might be a joke, but I think it fit. We already had her "leave the Chantry" to solve a conspiracy in DotS. She shouldn't have any problem doing that again.

And I do not believe that Cassandra jumps to conclusion. DA2 interrogation would have been quite different if it have been the case. The only thing Cassandra was asked to do is find where Hawke is (as per the ending cinematic) and not find the truth of what happened in Kirkwall 3 years ago (and cross-check all the stories she heard on the subject). I can't decide if it was badly presented or if we are supposed to think something doesn't add up between the ending cinematic and the interrogation. :/

[Rinshikai10]

You make a good point Azarhal, I see Cassandra having a inquisitive nature when it comes to looking for the Champion. However, I see her DotS version leaving the Chantry due to being framed for murder. Unless that situation happens again or, if Justinia dies I see very little reason for her to leave the Chantry's service.

The reason why I believe she jumps to conclusions is some of the dialogue during her scenes show her going on about the champion knowing what the Idol was, or that players companions come with them from Fereldan. Its been quite a while since I have played DA2 so most of this is coming from YouTube clips. So if I am wrong please correct me.

I agree with you on the ending, its not very clear. At this point I can't decide if Justinia, Cassandra, and Leliana do have a grand plan or if they a just desperate to try and gain some of the ground they lost due to a lack of action, and poor governing of the Chantry branches.

[Sir JK]

Rinshikai10 wrote...
I agree with you on the ending, its not very clear. At this point I can't decide if Justinia, Cassandra, and Leliana do have a grand plan or if they a just desperate to try and gain some of the ground they lost due to a lack of action, and poor governing of the Chantry branches.

I think it's the latter... and I'm not so sure it's because of "poor governing" as much as centuries of politics, shifting power blocs, factional disputes and ad-hoc solutions. When there weren't strong Divines, there were others acting through them.
The "big problem" (it's really not solvable either) is that every time a Divine dies and a new one is chosen, the entire ruling clique gets replaced. And they quickly finish up any outstanding business to pursue their own goals. To their detriment.

[azarhal]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

The reason why I believe she jumps to conclusions is some of the dialogue during her scenes show her going on about the champion knowing what the Idol was, or that players companions come with them from Fereldan. Its been quite a while since I have played DA2 so most of this is coming from YouTube clips. So if I am wrong please correct me.

You are not wrong about what you remember, but I never took these comments as jumping to conclusion. For three reasons, the first one is that she mention at some point that "none of these match the stories I heard" (she had intel from multiple sources on Hawke's life). The second one is that she was looking for a "big bad" (see Faith quest for what might have prompted this).  The third one is that there was not point in asking Varric about the 'truth' if she already has a conclusion.

I agree with you on the ending, its not very clear. At this point I
can't decide if Justinia, Cassandra, and Leliana do have a grand plan or
if they a just desperate to try and gain some of the ground they lost
due to a lack of action, and poor governing of the Chantry branches.

They probably have different point-of-views on how to deal with it. Justinia and Leliana seem like moderate people who would prefer to reach a compromise (which means reform), but Cassandra is an hardliner* (about the Chantry's laws and she's following Justinia which is rather interesting in itself). The main issue here is that the Chantry doesn't have the manpower to do anything drastic. They can't use force, they need to use diplomacy (or other less noble tactics that bards are trained for).

*I just watched the Dawn of the Seeker featurette (called Backstage Pass with Mark, Mike and other BioWare dev), some interesting stuff in there about the Seekers and Cassandra.

[Rinshikai10]

azarhal wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

The reason why I believe she jumps to conclusions is some of the dialogue during her scenes show her going on about the champion knowing what the Idol was, or that players companions come with them from Fereldan. Its been quite a while since I have played DA2 so most of this is coming from YouTube clips. So if I am wrong please correct me.

You are not wrong about what you remember, but I never took these comments as jumping to conclusion. For three reasons, the first one is that she mention at some point that "none of these match the stories I heard" (she had intel from multiple sources on Hawke's life). The second one is that she was looking for a "big bad" (see Faith quest for what might have prompted this).  The third one is that there was not point in asking Varric about the 'truth' if she already has a conclusion.

I agree with you on the ending, its not very clear. At this point I
can't decide if Justinia, Cassandra, and Leliana do have a grand plan or
if they a just desperate to try and gain some of the ground they lost
due to a lack of action, and poor governing of the Chantry branches.

They probably have different point-of-views on how to deal with it. Justinia and Leliana seem like moderate people who would prefer to reach a compromise (which means reform), but Cassandra is an hardliner* (about the Chantry's laws and she's following Justinia which is rather interesting in itself). The main issue here is that the Chantry doesn't have the manpower to do anything drastic. They can't use force, they need to use diplomacy (or other less noble tactics that bards are trained for).

*I just watched the Dawn of the Seeker featurette (called Backstage Pass with Mark, Mike and other BioWare dev), some interesting stuff in there about the Seekers and Cassandra.

I fully agree with you that a diplomatic approach to this conflict is the only way that Justinia can act without alienating possible alliances.(Ironically the Chantry appears to be more about force in the last 700 years). But, if she does try to use Leliana as she did in Kirkwall. This could backfire horribly, and create more distrust for her and the Chantry.

I personally believe that if Justinia miscalculates even once, then she will not get that second chance to build a bridge of trust she really needs at this point.

@ Sir JK

You make some very well thought out points. IMHO I feel that the management structure of the Chantry's is its greatest weakness.

It a shame that Justinia did not get Grand Enchanter Fiona, the Lord Seeker and head of the Templars to come to her side and act as the advisers of the respected group. Which from what I have read in WOT is there job, especially the Grand Enchanter.

[Sir JK]

Rinshikai10 wrote...
I fully agree with you that a diplomatic approach to this conflict is the only way that Justinia can act without alienating possible alliances.(Ironically the Chantry appears to be more about force in the last 700 years). But, if she does try to use Leliana as she did in Kirkwall. This could backfire horribly, and create more distrust for her and the Chantry.

I personally believe that if Justinia miscalculates even once, then she will not get that second chance to build a bridge of trust she really needs at this point.

Too late. That bridge has already collapsed with what transpired in Asunder. Now she has to start over from the foundations, and that takes much longer. Luckily, she has unlimited number of do-overs until she dies. Downside is that it becomes increasingly difficult every time she fails.

You make some very well thought out points. IMHO I feel that the management structure of the Chantry's is its greatest weakness.

It a shame that Justinia did not get Grand Enchanter Fiona, the Lord Seeker and head of the Templars to come to her side and act as the advisers of the respected group. Which from what I have read in WOT is there job, especially the Grand Enchanter.

You do realise it's how all politics work? You'd have to find an immortal dictator with immortal advisors to ever achieve something else.

And I think she did get them to "advise". The problem was that they're in positions of power and had their own ideas on what to do. Fiona had her libertarian agenda and background as a grey warden, which clashed poorly with Lambert's background in Tevinter. He was not going to let the control of the circles loosen pretty much ever, because like Fenris he had a firm idea of what would happen if they relaxed security a bit. The Knight-Vigilant seemed to be a weak, ineffectual administrator, controlled by the strongest voice in the room.

Add on top of this Kirkwall, that proved to the mages that the circle does not work (no, does not matter that Meredith abused her position) and to templars that mages are too dangerous to tolerate (no, does not matter that the circle was largely innocent... not that anyone knew).

So when they did advise, they advised completely opposite ideas from one another. Had they been in the same room I fully expect the Divine would have to spend more time calming them down than getting useful tips. And to be honest, it could have gone no other way. Fiona and Lambert were utterly incompatible with one another, and probably with Justinia herself as well.
To make things worse, Fiona seemed to have a "too little, too late"-opinion of the Divine and in Asunder Lambert completely lost his trust in her (largely, because she tried to salvage her own plans instead of passively allowing Lambert to do as he pleased).

[Rinshikai10]

@Sir JK
At this point I don't believe that met the Knight Vigilant yet. (Can't remember is they were in Asunder.)

While I agree with you that Lambert and Fiona don't share views. We do know that Lambert spoke to Justinia to advise her. Yet we never hear about the Divine asking for the advice from the Circle's elected leader Fiona or her predecessor the Hossberg First Enchanter. Justinia's only real Mage advice comes from a Mage who doesn't even really belong to the Circle any longer. Whos actions have left her is a situation where she can't truly speak for the Circles to the Divine.

While many may not agree with me on this. I agree with Fiona in the "too little, too late" stand. I understand Lambert experienced first hand the results of self governed Mages. However, this is a problem resulting from a cultural standpoint IMHO.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 20 juin 2013 - 01:42 .

[IanPolaris]

In some ways Justina's actions remind me of the actions of the last Romanovs of Russia. At the very end Czar Nicholas and his predecessors really were well meaning rulers (even liberals for their class and time) who really did try to make things better, but the system had become so old and ossified, that even the Czar no longer knew who to ask for for workable advice and the old hatreds had become too entrenched, and the pressures too high to be safely relieved.

Once WWI broke the statement, it was all over for the Romanovs. By contrast Great Britain is a country that more-or-less did it right by a gradual transition that was clearly well underway by the early 19th century. Before Queen Victoria, monarches in Britain had a great deal of power. After Victoria, while monarchs may have that power in theory, they don't in practice. The big difference? In Britian, the gradual approach was tried soon enough (stating really in the 15th century) and the examples of extremism (France) were extreme enough that gradual reform worked. In Russia neither was true.

Of course there are many more complexities than this, but in hindsight I think Anders was in fact correct by the time of DA2. There was no longer any peaceful solution possible. [This by no means indicates that I endorse what Anders did.]

-Polaris

[Rinshikai10]

At the rate things are going, Justinia may meet an end similar to Nicolas II and his family. If the survey holds any truth to it.

[Rinshikai10]

@IanPolaris

Correct me if I'm getting this wrong. In your example above about Great Britain and the gradual transition from a absolute monarchy to and symbolic monarchy.

Do you believe that due to the very limited change that the Chantry has gone through over seven hundred years, that they will meet an end similar to the Romanovs?

Looking at where Justinia is by the end of Asunder, I have to wonder if she believed the role of the Divine was more literal power then symbolic. If so, IMHO this may have been the major problem from the get go. Believing one has the literal power, when in practice it's more a less a title.

but that's just my opinion from what I have seen.

(edits) my first question was worded poorly, due to a lack of time.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 26 juin 2013 - 10:58 .

[Eveangaline]

If what the OP says is true I'm guessing she's rather anti-mage?

I don't see this ending well.

Modifié par Eveangaline, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:11 .

[Rinshikai10]

@Eveangaline

I don't believe that Justinia is really anti-mage, pro-chantry and pro-security definitely. However, I do believe that she is an Idealist. Who thought that her way was the only way change was going to work. Which in the end backfired and cost her the loyalty and trust of the Mages, most Templars, and most of the Seekers.

Though I do agree with you that things will not end well for her or the Chantry.

(Edit)
I would guess that the Chantry would loss most of its literal power (becoming solely symbolic), or it losses all central power permanently and each nation has its own Chantry. With different views on Magic, and how it should be regulated.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 06 juillet 2013 - 06:19 .

[Rinshikai10]

Has anyone heard any news relating to the Chantry or the Divine at Pax Australia (or other events,tweets etc)? Or was it just the same info we heard since the official trailer release?

[Rinshikai10]

Well its a slow week so I'll start a new discussion. I believe that it was Sir JK that pointed out to me that Justinia will have to be very careful, with how she approaches the situation that Thedas now faces.

She can't go in guns blazing, so that would leave her with peaceful negotiations as the best method to gain support for her faction.

Any suggestions on how she could go about this?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Well its a slow week so I'll start a new discussion. I believe that it was Sir JK that pointed out to me that Justinia will have to be very careful, with how she approaches the situation that Thedas now faces.

She can't go in guns blazing, so that would leave her with peaceful negotiations as the best method to gain support for her faction.

Any suggestions on how she could go about this?

She can't why she is incompetent leader and she lost trust of mages and templars for playing on both sides saying nice things to them but kicking them in ass , as i m pro mage but i have to admit it lambert is better leader than she is and if you bunch fanatical guys leaves you for old psycho it is sign that she should stay playing the game with horny nobles ,she lost and is desperate and ends with small groupe peoples who serves her.  

[Rinshikai10]

The point I'm trying to get at is, yes, Justinia dropped the ball and now she is in a really bad situation. Where trying to impose her view, or the use of heavy handed tactics will do more harm then good. Leaving her only the possibility to negotiate with nations leaders, to try and fix the problems which now plague the Chantry and Orlais.

I guess the question should be, how would Justinia try to gain support from the nations of Thedas. After the events of Asunder.

Any thoughts?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

The point I'm trying to get at is, yes, Justinia dropped the ball and now she is in a really bad situation. Where trying to impose her view, or the use of heavy handed tactics will do more harm then good. Leaving her only the possibility to negotiate with nations leaders, to try and fix the problems which now plague the Chantry and Orlais.

I guess the question should be, how would Justinia try to gain support from the nations of Thedas. After the events of Asunder.

Any thoughts?

Well she should give situation in more competent hands (probably Inquisitor) first she need's take side in conflict nation what she want support no one like neutrals especially when you digging under both sides (what is even worse than what elthina did).She don't have charisma and skills to be peacemaker and she intervened only when mages rebelion was knocking to her door ingnoring what meredith and other templars did in kirkwall for many years and when she never support mages in any way after this years she helped them once and expected that they will love them in mage-templar conflict she is deleted she screwd there. Every nation have now own problems if you want allies solve this problems like warden did but she is too incompetent to solve them. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 31 juillet 2013 - 04:21 .