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[Monica21]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...
EDIT: And wtf is that with Terrorist??? Terrorist is what the opresor called opresed that tried to fight back. The same way opresed called opresor Tyrant. You think that his actions aren't justified, but the world isn't black and white, the Templars are brutal and merciless,  Meredith, despite her madness was a 'good girl' litterally compare to some other templars, and we haven't seen all of the circles where it can be much worse for the mage. (Think of Ser Alric - turning girls tranquil and then gang raping them)

What Anders (but mostly the writers) did was purely the mark of a coward, and that's what terrorists do. Anders didn't attack his oppressors. He didn't blow up the Gallows. He didn't attack the Templars. He went after the neutrals and the innocents. You may not agree with the Chantry or be an Andrastian, but Templar policies are not and were not Elthina's policies. And by that I mean that she did not create the policies of the Templar order in Kirkwall.The people who died because of the explosion were also unlikely to be involved directly in Templar politics.

Anders didn't attack his "oppressor" and never claimed to want to. He tells you as early as Act I that everyone is going to be forced to make a choice and Anders became the instigator of that choice. He's a coward and a murderer, and yes, a terrorist. Too bad if you don't like it, but that's exactly what he is, and only because that's exactly what BioWare wrote.

[garrusfan1]

I think what he did was horrible and he dies in all my playthrughs. what he did was basically him saying all mages will be fre or will be killed. something needed to be done but what he did was beyond stupid

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Why would anyone want that crappy character alive, killing him was one of the very few good bits of DA2.

[EdwinLi]

So let put it simple...

You punish someone by giving him the one thing he wants the most?

Anders wanted to die but before he does that he wanted to finally put the last drop that would cause the jar to finally overflow which would of happened no matter what.

[LobselVith8]

DinoSteve wrote...

Why would anyone want that crappy character alive, killing him was one of the very few good bits of DA2.

I kept Anders alive. His symbiosis with Justice is interesting. I wish I could encourage him to go to the kingdom of Rivain and meet with the seers who have bonded with spirits from the Fade for over a millennia. They might be able to help him cope.

[Senya]

Monica21 wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...
EDIT: And wtf is that with Terrorist??? Terrorist is what the opresor called opresed that tried to fight back. The same way opresed called opresor Tyrant. You think that his actions aren't justified, but the world isn't black and white, the Templars are brutal and merciless,  Meredith, despite her madness was a 'good girl' litterally compare to some other templars, and we haven't seen all of the circles where it can be much worse for the mage. (Think of Ser Alric - turning girls tranquil and then gang raping them)

What Anders (but mostly the writers) did was purely the mark of a coward, and that's what terrorists do. Anders didn't attack his oppressors. He didn't blow up the Gallows. He didn't attack the Templars. He went after the neutrals and the innocents. You may not agree with the Chantry or be an Andrastian, but Templar policies are not and were not Elthina's policies. And by that I mean that she did not create the policies of the Templar order in Kirkwall.The people who died because of the explosion were also unlikely to be involved directly in Templar politics.

Anders didn't attack his "oppressor" and never claimed to want to. He tells you as early as Act I that everyone is going to be forced to make a choice and Anders became the instigator of that choice. He's a coward and a murderer, and yes, a terrorist. Too bad if you don't like it, but that's exactly what he is, and only because that's exactly what BioWare wrote.

This.

Nonetheless, I felt sorry for him and spared him in one playthrough to see if he gets better. If I find him causing more trouble in Dragon Age III, I will be forced to kill him. Or imprison him in my castle dungeon. With former Tempalr guards.

[Major Crackhead]

Putting Anders' aside, I liked the fact that supporting Avernus' research "completely" in Origins had a positive effect in DAII. Bioware should have grey/evil options provide a benefit more often, as that actually enhances the "heroism" of refusing that option, from a roleplay perspective anyway.

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

What Anders (but mostly the writers) did was purely the mark of a coward, and that's what terrorists do. Anders didn't attack his oppressors. He didn't blow up the Gallows. He didn't attack the Templars. He went after the neutrals and the innocents.

The Order of Templars is the military arm of the Chantry. Knight-Commander Meredith is the subordinate of Grand Cleric Elthina. The person who has the authority to reign in Meredith is Elthina. I don't see how you can view the members of the Chantry as "innocents" or "neutrals" when they are in charge of the Chantry controlled Circles and control the lyrium supply the templars are dependent on.

Monica21 wrote...

You may not agree with the Chantry or be an Andrastian, but Templar policies are not and were not Elthina's policies. And by that I mean that she did not create the policies of the Templar order in Kirkwall.The people who died because of the explosion were also unlikely to be involved directly in Templar politics.

Grand Cleric Elthina was responsible for the actions of her subordinate, who she refused to reign in for three years.

Monica21 wrote...

Anders didn't attack his "oppressor" and never claimed to want to. He tells you as early as Act I that everyone is going to be forced to make a choice and Anders became the instigator of that choice. He's a coward and a murderer, and yes, a terrorist. Too bad if you don't like it, but that's exactly what he is, and only because that's exactly what BioWare wrote. 

Another view is that Anders killed members of an organization who subjugated and enslaved mages for nearly a millennia. It's why there are always threads where this issue is debated by fans, and not everyone agrees about the view on who Anders is.

[Dave of Canada]

I hope we get to see Anders even further gone if left alive, Justice making him go full bat-****.

[Stella-Arc]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Stella-Arc wrote...

Anders is dead in all my playthroughs. I can never let him live. He disgusts me. I even romanced that guy on my first ever playthrough and halfway through the story I was horrified. Then the idiot had to blow up the chantry.

1. Anders condemned the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. He saw his first love turned into a tranquil for writing letters, informing him about the horrors that were taking place in the Circle of Kirkwall. Mages have been tortured, raped, and murdered. I didn't hold it against Anders that he wanted to put an end to the Chantry controlled Circles, and emancipate his people from a millennia of servitude to the Chantry.

Stella-Arc wrote...

Seriously, if the majority of the mages are made up of people like Anders, Fiona and Adrian, I might just say "**** you all" and join whatever faction appears less stupid.

2. While I'd rather support people who are interested in helping maintain mage autonomy, rather than bending knee to the Chantry and the templars.

1. Yes, because only the mages experience such horrors and not *coughelvescough*. That aside, the circle needs to be reformed but the situation isn't so black and white. Blowing up a chantry was wrong no matter what horrors he felt or experienced. After all, he became the very thing he despised; a murderer. 

You don't dismantle the masters house with the master's tools. 

2. Once again, it's not so black and white. Some people prefer a balance, some are supporters, others just want to isolate themselves while some want to break off completely. If the mage rebellion is being led by people like Anders, Fiona, and Adrian, then nothing but blood will be spilled for a very long time and mistrust will only be cemented. 

I don't want the circles to be like they were before; I want a compromise and a way to educate both the mages and mundanes. Violence will only generate more violence.

Ander should pay for what he did. He knew what he did was wrong. What disgusted me even more was that, if didn't romance him, he will say that the sooner he dies the sooner he can become a martyr to many mages. 

Talk about having a large ego. DA: A Anders died the day he merged with Justice. 

[LobselVith8]

Stella-Arc wrote...

1. Yes, because only the mages experience such horrors and not *coughelvescough*.

I think the elves have gotten a raw deal throughout history because of Tevinter and the Andrastian Chantry. That's why I made a thread recently where I speculated on the idea of helping the elves reclaim the Dales in the new Dragon Age game, instead of aiding the bickering Orlesian politicians I could care less about.

Stella-Arc wrote...

That aside, the circle needs to be reformed but the situation isn't so black and white. Blowing up a chantry was wrong no matter what horrors he felt or experienced. After all, he became the very thing he despised; a murderer.

The fact that people have debated Anders' actions for years shows that it's not everyone thinks it was wrong for Anders to destroy the Chantry and kill the Grand Cleric. You can read through the countless threads where no one reached a consensus on the matter of whether Anders was right or wrong to kill Grand Cleric Elthina. Some think he was right; others think he was wrong. I doubt this thread will be any different on the matter of Anders' actions in Kirkwall.

Stella-Arc wrote...

You don't dismantle the masters house with the master's tools. 

2. Once again, it's not so black and white. Some people prefer a balance, some are supporters, others just want to isolate themselves while some want to break off completely. If the mage rebellion is being led by people like Anders, Fiona, and Adrian, then nothing but blood will be spilled for a very long time and mistrust will only be cemented. 

I don't want the circles to be like they were before; I want a compromise and a way to educate both the mages and mundanes. Violence will only generate more violence.

I'm aware of the variety among the Fraternity of the Enchanters, but I don't think it's realistic to reach a compromise when templars think they have dominion over mages by divine right, and many mages are likely fighting to keep their autonomy. And I think it would be fairly meaningless if the plot railroaded the protagonist into putting the mages back under Chantry and templar control. There are plenty of people who would prefer to help the mages maintain their autonomy from an anti-mage religious organization.

My Surana Warden asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence. My apostate Hawke fought to overthrow the templars (as he told Anders) and free the mages (which is why he helped the mage underground). I'd like to build on that by having a protagonist who can help the mages maintain their autonomy from the Chantry and the templars.

I'm sure there are other players who feel differently, of course, and they should be able to pursue their own pro-templar paths with their characters.

Stella-Arc wrote...

Ander should pay for what he did. He knew what he did was wrong. What disgusted me even more was that, if didn't romance him, he will say that the sooner he dies the sooner he can become a martyr to many mages.

While I think fighting for mage autonomy from the Chantry was the right thing to do. I suppose we can agree to disagree on this.

Stella-Arc wrote...

Talk about having a large ego. DA: A Anders died the day he merged with Justice.

Frankly, I prefer the proactive Anders who wanted to free the mages from the Chantry.

[Zelto]

LobselVith8 wrote...

While I think fighting for mage autonomy from the Chantry was the right thing to do. I suppose we can agree to disagree on this.

He didn't do anything to promote mage freedom by blowing up
the Chantry.

He simply forces moderate mages to rebel against the templars because they started
to crackdown on the mages. He took away the freedom of those other mages to try
and work towards a compromise. What gave him the right to choose the path every
other mage must now follow or suffer the consequences of his actions.

Add to that he didn't actually attack his oppressors as the Grand Cleric is
clearly shown to be powerless against the templars and appears to want to try
and resolve the matter. He blew them up to prevent her intervention as he knew
she was the only one that might be able to calm the situation therefore ruining
his hopes of freedom.

Modifié par Zelto, 16 avril 2013 - 08:41 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Anders by blowing up the chantry is actually hurting the cause of mage rights, he is doing exactly what ordinary people and Templers fear a apostate would do.

He is only a terrorist not a freedom fighter, plus he sucks at terrorism.

[andy6915]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

On his fate, i am 100% sure he will be in Inquisition if he survived Kirkwal - you had to join mages for that, as otherwise he comes back in Gallows and fight you to death there. Probably with insurgence mages - Rhys, Evangeline, Fiona and the rest.

Actually, you're wrong about needing to side with the mages for him to survive. If you hit max rivalry with him and helped him with all his requests in his act 3 quest, you make him realize how much worse he's made things and you can convince him to help the Templars to kill the mages if you side with the Knight Commander. I got him to help with the ROA on a previous playthrough once.

[BouncyFrag]

andy69156915 wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

On his fate, i am 100% sure he will be in Inquisition if he survived Kirkwal - you had to join mages for that, as otherwise he comes back in Gallows and fight you to death there. Probably with insurgence mages - Rhys, Evangeline, Fiona and the rest.

Actually, you're wrong about needing to side with the mages for him to survive. If you hit max rivalry with him and helped him with all his requests in his act 3 quest, you make him realize how much worse he's made things and you can convince him to help the Templars to kill the mages if you side with the Knight Commander. I got him to help with the ROA on a previous playthrough once.

I'm gonna give that a go on my next playthrough.

[andy6915]

Proof-

[10K]

andy69156915 wrote...

Proof-

Wow, seeing this actually makes me feel conflicted towards Anders now. That's crazy that Vengeance caused him to do this act, I always thought he does it on his own. BW what have you done to Anders?

Anyway, thanks for the vid. I never saw this conversation with him before.

[Stella-Arc]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Stella-Arc wrote...

1. Yes, because only the mages experience such horrors and not *coughelvescough*.

1. I think the elves have gotten a raw deal throughout history because of Tevinter and the Andrastian Chantry. That's why I made a thread recently where I speculated on the idea of helping the elves reclaim the Dales in the new Dragon Age game, instead of aiding the bickering Orlesian politicians I could care less about.

Stella-Arc wrote...

That aside, the circle needs to be reformed but the situation isn't so black and white. Blowing up a chantry was wrong no matter what horrors he felt or experienced. After all, he became the very thing he despised; a murderer.

2. The fact that people have debated Anders' actions for years shows that it's not everyone thinks it was wrong for Anders to destroy the Chantry and kill the Grand Cleric. You can read through the countless threads where no one reached a consensus on the matter of whether Anders was right or wrong to kill Grand Cleric Elthina. Some think he was right; others think he was wrong. I doubt this thread will be any different on the matter of Anders' actions in Kirkwall.

Stella-Arc wrote...

You don't dismantle the masters house with the master's tools. 

2. Once again, it's not so black and white. Some people prefer a balance, some are supporters, others just want to isolate themselves while some want to break off completely. If the mage rebellion is being led by people like Anders, Fiona, and Adrian, then nothing but blood will be spilled for a very long time and mistrust will only be cemented. 

I don't want the circles to be like they were before; I want a compromise and a way to educate both the mages and mundanes. Violence will only generate more violence.

3. I'm aware of the variety among the Fraternity of the Enchanters, but I don't think it's realistic to reach a compromise when templars think they have dominion over mages by divine right, and many mages are likely fighting to keep their autonomy. And I think it would be fairly meaningless if the plot railroaded the protagonist into putting the mages back under Chantry and templar control. There are plenty of people who would prefer to help the mages maintain their autonomy from an anti-mage religious organization.

My Surana Warden asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence. My apostate Hawke fought to overthrow the templars (as he told Anders) and free the mages (which is why he helped the mage underground). I'd like to build on that by having a protagonist who can help the mages maintain their autonomy from the Chantry and the templars.

I'm sure there are other players who feel differently, of course, and they should be able to pursue their own pro-templar paths with their characters.

Stella-Arc wrote...

Ander should pay for what he did. He knew what he did was wrong. What disgusted me even more was that, if didn't romance him, he will say that the sooner he dies the sooner he can become a martyr to many mages.

4. While I think fighting for mage autonomy from the Chantry was the right thing to do. I suppose we can agree to disagree on this.

Stella-Arc wrote...

Talk about having a large ego. DA: A Anders died the day he merged with Justice.

5. Frankly, I prefer the proactive Anders who wanted to free the mages from the Chantry.

1. I agree with you 100% on the elves issue. 

2. I suppose you are right. 

3. Just to be clear, I am in no way pro-Templar. I've only chose that path once and I hated it. I am pro-mage. My first ever warden was a female Surana and she too asked for the Ferelden's circle to be free from chantry rule and my canon archer!Hawke supported the mages (even helped the mage underground). However, because of how DA2 portrayed the mages (BLOOD MAGIC DERP), it made me bitter and I felt as if the devs were trying to potray the mages as victims (which they are) but then they show them as maniacs who cannot be reasoned with. Then Asunder came along and introduced Adrian and made Fiona an even more devout supporter of mage freedom with her "**** the Divine" sentiment (I like that quote by the way) and trying to force the college into seperating from the chantry. In my canon playthrough, my canon "Inquisitor" will be a female mage. I just hope that the plot won't paint a group as victims and then only potray a majority of them as maniacs. 

4. I am all for mage freedom but being a hyprocrite about it is another thing. And Grand Cleric Elthina was nuetral. Should she have done something? Yes. Did she deserve death along with a lot of other victims? No. Anders forced many mages to literally fight for lives. What happens to those who can barely light a candle, or mages who are just scholars or those who are content to be in the circle? Now they are running for their lives. And do you honestly believe that people will just welcome mages, especially after what a mage did to a chantry? Only Tevinter will and maybe Ferelden and that depends. The fight for mage freedom began with the death of innocents. 

5. Except "proactive" Anders isn't Anders from Awakening. In DA:A, he told Justice that he isn't interested because it's too much work. His personality fit it very well. Anders only existed in DA2 to blow up the chantry. That's it. That was his purpose by how things were presented. Velanna was the one who was suppose to take his place but in the end, it ended up being Anders. But then she's an elf so I guess Anders makes a little more sense with all those blood mages running around...

Modifié par Stella-Arc, 16 avril 2013 - 11:52 .

[andy6915]

mosesarose wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Proof-

Wow, seeing this actually makes me feel conflicted towards Anders now. That's crazy that Vengeance caused him to do this act, I always thought he does it on his own. BW what have you done to Anders?

Anyway, thanks for the vid. I never saw this conversation with him before.

You simply must 100% rival him at least once. It shows you a whole different side to him, and far more interesting then his friend path. I've done a friend and rivalry run with him several times both, and I much prefer the rival path.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I kept Anders alive. His symbiosis with Justice is interesting. I wish I could encourage him to go to the kingdom of Rivain and meet with the seers who have bonded with spirits from the Fade for over a millennia. They might be able to help him cope.

Indeed. J/V is fine letting Anders in charge as long as it agrees with Anders's methods and plans. The moment Anders tried to do something that J/V didn't like, it took full control of Anders's body, with the latter unable to stop him. It is obviously different from the normal abomination, where the demon fully controls the ho....oh wait.
Though regardless, the relationship is indeed interesting, since it's the first merge between a spirit and a human that we saw directly in-game, and it might be different thant the bonding that the seers do. I doubt we'll see a lot of Anders in the future, though I surelt hope to find more about the seers.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Frankly, I prefer the proactive Anders who wanted to free the mages from the Chantry.

I'm fine with a proactive Anders. I'm not fine with a obsessed Anders, which he was already in Act 1/2 before the quest, and become even worse after his quest. Though to be fair, his personality (until his quest in Act 2, after which his mood darkened a lot and he was completely obsessed by his goal) is the same as it was in DAA, as shown (a little) in dialogues, and a lot in banters.

[10K]

Filament wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

Wow, seeing this actually makes me feel conflicted towards Anders now. That's crazy that Vengeance caused him to do this act, I always thought he does it on his own. BW what have you done to Anders?

Anyway, thanks for the vid. I never saw this conversation with him before.

Well it depends. If you friended him, he becomes more as one with Vengeance. Whereas if you rival him, they stay more as discrete entities, and Vengeance becomes more volatile and unhinged from this rebuke. So if you friended him on your playthroughs it's not really that Vengeance made him do it. "Veanders" did it.

I'm sort of thinking the same thing right now. Because his dialogue is really different,depending on rather or not you befriended him. When you're his friend it seems as if he's more sure of himself at what he's doing, but in that vid he's doubting himself more. So I'm thinking Hawke's influence may have made a difference in how Anders handle the spirit inside himself.

But I don't know. I'm just really hoping Anders don't turn into one of those really crazy mages who can't think on their own. I want him to be able to control this spirit, because his character has become really interesting with it.

[The Elder King]

mosesarose wrote...


But I don't know. I'm just really hoping Anders don't turn into one of those really crazy mages who can't think on their own. I want him to be able to control this spirit, because his character has become really interesting with it.

If rival, Anders needs to go see the seers as soon as possible, since they'rje the only one with knowledge about spirit bonding, and J/V is heavily unstable at the point. He doesn't have full control over his body.
If friend, he doesn't have the same urgency. He's still in control. We don't know how the symbiosis will develop in the future. I'd say risk are present (unless Vengeance returned to its older self, which while still extreme was more reasonable), since J/V is unpredictable (in my opinion), and it's as extremist as it's possible.

[Todd23]

I want a chance to kill him in DA3I if you killed him in DA2.

[The Elder King]

Todd23 wrote...

I want a chance to kill him in DA3I if you killed him in DA2.

Do you mean J/V? Anders is surely dead if killed in DA2. Gaider confirmed it.