198 réponses à ce sujet

[Zack_Nero]

Rpgfantasyplayer wrote...

I don't want to get long page of quotes, so I am just going to do it this way. @Zack_Nero I never romanced him. Just could not get past they way he changed in DA2 from Awakenings. So I missed out on that one part. It could be that Justice is still alive but in my head unless something else happens, he is dead. Anders is dead that I am certain about, if you killed him that is. ****SPOILER**** even in Asunder (which I know is not game canon) Anders is dead. So I don't think that if we killed him that he will be showing up. Justice may show up as a demon of some sort because I do believe as others on this thread do that he was one at least by the end of DA2. He may not have started that way, but I believe he ended up that way.

Am not saying that you are wrong, am just saying that their might still be a small difference between the two.  I will agree with the fact the Justice maybe a demon because of Anders rage.  And what has become of Justice is it's own story, that being if he is a new kind of demon or that of going back to a spirit.  Just my opinion.

Also I haven't read the third book yet, am just now finishing number two.

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Another view is that Anders killed members of an organization who subjugated and enslaved mages for nearly a millennia. It's why there are always threads where this issue is debated by fans, and not everyone agrees about the view on who Anders is.

He could have simply killed the Grand Cleric, but he didn't. I certainly walked with him into the Chantry enough times for him to do it. It's not as if Elthina was well-guarded. But that wasn't enough for him. It wouldn't create the kind of reaction he wanted. He wanted destruction and death and mayhem and he got it. 

Do you think that the lay sisters at the Chantry deserved to die? Did they enslave and subjugate mages? They didn't. Anders did manage to kill the person who didn't reign in Meredith, but he killed far more who had nothing to do with any of the Templar's policies. That's a cowardly, stupid, and short-sighted act and to argue that it's anything but is severely misguided. It frankly doesn't even make for a very good story.

[10K]

I don't think Anders big plan was to kill Elthina (even though it was a part of it), initially it was to provoke. He wanted to start some type of uprising by his extreme action, and I believe he also relies on Meredith rashness to help escalate the situation. If Meredith was in her right mind I don't think things would have gone as far as they did. She would have just killed Anders and things would've been stopped right there.

Modifié par mosesarose, 17 avril 2013 - 04:09 .

[Senya]

^^

In the end, the ends justified the means for him.

I also don't want to think about the damage blowing up a huge building like that would have on the rest of Kirkwall or any non-Chantry citizens simply worshiping there or killed because the explosion damaged or destroyed their homes or the building they were in if it was near enough to the Chantry.

Not to mention the mages themselves. Most are said to be dead. Many of them turned into abominations because of the stress of the moment. That destroyed/mutilated their very souls. And for what? For a large, bloody war that may or may not end how he intends it to?

[Nightdragon8]

well considering the mage/templar war was in the making, he pretty much lit the fuse himself to get the war started.

[EdwinLi]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

In the end, the ends justified the means for him.

I also don't want to think about the damage blowing up a huge building like that would have on the rest of Kirkwall or any non-Chantry citizens simply worshiping there or killed because the explosion damaged or destroyed their homes or the building they were in if it was near enough to the Chantry.

Not to mention the mages themselves. Most are said to be dead. Many of them turned into abominations because of the stress of the moment. That destroyed/mutilated their very souls. And for what? For a large, bloody war that may or may not end how he intends it to?

Just be glad in DA3 you have to choice to stop the war before it begins or escolate it towards Templar or Mages winning the war.

I'm going for the Stop the War before it begins because from the beginning I believe both sides have been at faught.

Templars imprison mages in the circle because of the fear from the damage Mages can cause but it does not justify imprisoning all of them.

Mages have turn been unjustly treated but there are some who have abused there power.

[Zeldrik1389]

EdwinLi wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

In the end, the ends justified the means for him.

I also don't want to think about the damage blowing up a huge building like that would have on the rest of Kirkwall or any non-Chantry citizens simply worshiping there or killed because the explosion damaged or destroyed their homes or the building they were in if it was near enough to the Chantry.

Not to mention the mages themselves. Most are said to be dead. Many of them turned into abominations because of the stress of the moment. That destroyed/mutilated their very souls. And for what? For a large, bloody war that may or may not end how he intends it to?

Just be glad in DA3 you have to choice to stop the war before it begins or escolate it towards Templar or Mages winning the war.

I'm going for the Stop the War before it begins because from the beginning I believe both sides have been at faught.

Templars imprison mages in the circle because of the fear from the damage Mages can cause but it does not justify imprisoning all of them.

Mages have turn been unjustly treated but there are some who have abused there power.

Wait, is it possible to stop the war before it begins? I never heard anything about that? I thought DA:I was about Olais civil war mix in with the beginning of Mage / Templar conflict.
Anyhow, I agree that both side are wrong. Imprison and abuse people for sth they MIGHT do is wrong, even though mages' power and their constantly being tempted by demon is very dangerous. Still, many apostates went crazy and killed innocent people, that kind of things didn't improve mages' reputation :/
Though it's kinda hard to stop this war. Going back to the old system is pretty much impossible at this point. Creating another Mages rulling nation like Tevinter? Maybe.

[EdwinLi]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...



Wait, is it possible to stop the war before it begins? I never heard anything about that? I thought DA:I was about Olais civil war mix in with the beginning of Mage / Templar conflict.
Anyhow, I agree that both side are wrong. Imprison and abuse people for sth they MIGHT do is wrong, even though mages' power and their constantly being tempted by demon is very dangerous. Still, many apostates went crazy and killed innocent people, that kind of things didn't improve mages' reputation :/
Though it's kinda hard to stop this war. Going back to the old system is pretty much impossible at this point. Creating another Mages rulling nation like Tevinter? Maybe.

Yes you can stop the Mage vs Templar war before it begins in DA3 or escolate it towards one side. That is the Main mission of the Inquisitor.

DA3 will have you dealing with the civil war with Olais and stuff but the main focus and plot of DA:I is to stop or escolate the Mage vs Templar war. 

This is why The Inquisitor will have to travel to different countries so he or she can stop the Mage vs Templar war from escolating by asking the country he or she helped to aid in stopping the war before it escolates or he or she can escolate it him or herself by siding with Mages or Templars by giving one side more support (through the countries support and etc.)

Modifié par EdwinLi, 17 avril 2013 - 04:41 .

[Rawgrim]

EdwinLi wrote...

Zeldrik1389 wrote...



Wait, is it possible to stop the war before it begins? I never heard anything about that? I thought DA:I was about Olais civil war mix in with the beginning of Mage / Templar conflict.
Anyhow, I agree that both side are wrong. Imprison and abuse people for sth they MIGHT do is wrong, even though mages' power and their constantly being tempted by demon is very dangerous. Still, many apostates went crazy and killed innocent people, that kind of things didn't improve mages' reputation :/
Though it's kinda hard to stop this war. Going back to the old system is pretty much impossible at this point. Creating another Mages rulling nation like Tevinter? Maybe.

Yes you can stop the Mage vs Templar war before it begins in DA3 or escolate it towards one side. That is the Main mission of the Inquisitor.

DA3 will have you dealing with the civil war with Olais and stuff but the main focus and plot of DA:I is to stop or escolate the Mage vs Templar war. 

This is why The Inquisitor will have to travel to different countries so he or she can stop the Mage vs Templar war from escolating by asking the country he or she helped to aid in stopping the war before it escolates or he or she can escolate it him or herself by siding with Mages or Templars by giving one side more support (through the countries support and etc.)

Is this confirmed somewhere?

[EdwinLi]

Rawgrim wrote...


Is this confirmed somewhere?

You seriously didn't know the Inquisitor's mission is to stop or escolate the Mage vs Templar war? It was shown at the end of DA2 that with Hawke and the Warden missing someone else has to interfer and stop the war. Even the strategy guide said at the final line "Will some kind of inquisition be at the heart of events of the next Dragon Age title?"

Basically the Inquisitor has to fix everything Hawke broke in DA2.

Modifié par EdwinLi, 17 avril 2013 - 05:45 .

[10K]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Not to mention the mages themselves. Most are said to be dead. Many of them turned into abominations because of the stress of the moment. That destroyed/mutilated their very souls. And for what? For a large, bloody war that may or may not end how he intends it to?

I think Anders really just wants the mages to start fighting for their freedoms. He's tired of seeing the templars abuse their power harming mages without cause, just because they can. And I think he believes mages have just accepted this, believing the maker hates them because of their magic or whatever. Everyone's eyes were on kirkwall as Leliana said, so basically it was taking the lead. Whatever happens there will spread throughout Thedas.

Anders uses this stunt to give the mages no other choices but to fight, and as I said he relies on Meredith for this also. And sure some mages may have died, some may have turned into abomination, and innocents my have been caught in all this mess. But sacrifices must be made in any conflict, and Kirkwall is that sacrifice. Now circles are rebelling all over Thedas for their freedoms, and I think that's what Anders wanted most and he he got it.

Modifié par mosesarose, 17 avril 2013 - 06:24 .

[Senya]

^^

How is that any different than Meredith saying that they must "amputate a limb" to save the whole? Anders did not have to do it this way. Thrask had a better way, though he was killed because he trusted Grace and outside blood mages.

Anders would have been better off trying to come up with a better way rather than, "let's start a war".

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Another view is that Anders killed members of an organization who subjugated and enslaved mages for nearly a millennia. It's why there are always threads where this issue is debated by fans, and not everyone agrees about the view on who Anders is.

He could have simply killed the Grand Cleric, but he didn't. I certainly walked with him into the Chantry enough times for him to do it. It's not as if Elthina was well-guarded. But that wasn't enough for him. It wouldn't create the kind of reaction he wanted. He wanted destruction and death and mayhem and he got it.

He wanted to end slavery. And the Circles broke free. In Kirkwall, many mages survive if Hawke protects them from Meredith (as Varric mentions), and Aveline has her guards protecting the civilians.

Monica21 wrote...

Do you think that the lay sisters at the Chantry deserved to die? Did they enslave and subjugate mages? They didn't. Anders did manage to kill the person who didn't reign in Meredith, but he killed far more who had nothing to do with any of the Templar's policies. That's a cowardly, stupid, and short-sighted act and to argue that it's anything but is severely misguided. It frankly doesn't even make for a very good story. 

Anders' actions lead to the Circles breaking free from the Chantry. Some people think it was worth it.

[10K]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

How is that any different than Meredith saying that they must "amputate a limb" to save the whole? Anders did not have to do it this way. Thrask had a better way, though he was killed because he trusted Grace and outside blood mages.

Anders would have been better off trying to come up with a better way rather than, "let's start a war".

Let's say thrask did have his way. Do you really think the Chantry or the Templar order would accept it. I don't. Thrask was just an idealist, and as you saw it cost him at the end. the truth is All mages can't be treated equally and Anders also understands this, Thrask does not and accepts the help of crazy blood mages.

As for him trying a similar solution, that wouldn't be possible either IMO because how many Templars will go along with a mage's plan. There's still a lot of mistrust on either side for that to happen.

Modifié par mosesarose, 17 avril 2013 - 07:07 .

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

How is that any different than Meredith saying that they must "amputate a limb" to save the whole? Anders did not have to do it this way. Thrask had a better way, though he was killed because he trusted Grace and outside blood mages.

Thrask was killed to railroad the player. Grace attacking Thrask when Hawke helped her and opposed Meredith made that quest nonsensical on a pro-mage run.

almostinsane99 wrote...

Anders would have been better off trying to come up with a better way rather than, "let's start a war".

People had a millennia to try other ways. Anders' way worked; the Circles broke away from the Chantry, and the mages have their autonomy.

[10K]

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

How is that any different than Meredith saying that they must "amputate a limb" to save the whole? Anders did not have to do it this way. Thrask had a better way, though he was killed because he trusted Grace and outside blood mages.

Thrask was killed to railroad the player. Grace attacking Thrask when Hawke helped her and opposed Meredith made that quest nonsensical on a pro-mage run.

almostinsane99 wrote...

Anders would have been better off trying to come up with a better way rather than, "let's start a war".

People had a millennia to try other ways. Anders' way worked; the Circles broke away from the Chantry, and the mages have their autonomy.

Yes this. You said it better then I could:D

[Zeldrik1389]

EdwinLi wrote...

Zeldrik1389 wrote...



Wait, is it possible to stop the war before it begins? I never heard anything about that? I thought DA:I was about Olais civil war mix in with the beginning of Mage / Templar conflict.
Anyhow, I agree that both side are wrong. Imprison and abuse people for sth they MIGHT do is wrong, even though mages' power and their constantly being tempted by demon is very dangerous. Still, many apostates went crazy and killed innocent people, that kind of things didn't improve mages' reputation :/
Though it's kinda hard to stop this war. Going back to the old system is pretty much impossible at this point. Creating another Mages rulling nation like Tevinter? Maybe.

Yes you can stop the Mage vs Templar war before it begins in DA3 or escolate it towards one side. That is the Main mission of the Inquisitor.

DA3 will have you dealing with the civil war with Olais and stuff but the main focus and plot of DA:I is to stop or escolate the Mage vs Templar war. 

This is why The Inquisitor will have to travel to different countries so he or she can stop the Mage vs Templar war from escolating by asking the country he or she helped to aid in stopping the war before it escolates or he or she can escolate it him or herself by siding with Mages or Templars by giving one side more support (through the countries support and etc.)

Hmm interesting. Though I hope we will have some kind of official confirmation soon :| There's still so little information available at the moment :|

[In Exile]

mosesarose wrote...
I think Anders really just wants the mages to start fighting for their freedoms. He's tired of seeing the templars abuse their power harming mages without cause, just because they can.  

What about mages that don't value that? Like Flynn (or whatever his name was) from Witch Hunt? He outright tells you that he doesn't want to go out of the Tower, even though he was free to do so for a very long time. 

Anders uses this stunt to give the mages no other choices but to fight, and as I said he relies on Meredith for this also. And sure some mages may have died, some may have turned into abomination, and innocents my have been caught in all this mess. But sacrifices must be made in any conflict, and Kirkwall is that sacrifice. Now circles are rebelling all over Thedas for their freedoms, and I think that's what Anders wanted most and he he got it.

What gives Anders the right to decide that every mage in Kirkwall has to die for the sake of his Crusade? There is an insane gulf between standing up against systemic abuse and engineering the massacre of innocents to force people into a war. 

And Anders actions amounted to exactly meaningless slaughter. The mages were clearly up in arms about the Chantry already, and seemed to be on the verge of pushing out the Chantry anyway. People like Fiona didn't need Anders conspiring to bring about another (potentially justified, in the eyes of some) Annulment. 

The very reason that Leliana was in Kirkwall to begin with was the paranoid fear of the Chantry that groups like the Libertarians would push to break free from the Chantry. As early as DA:A we had Wynne tell us that the mages wanted to move for greater freedom, even outright separation from the Chantry.

So I ask you again - other than at the very least engineering the painful physical and spiritual mutiliation of a group of already abused mages in Kirkwall, not to mention their (probable) violent death at the hands of the templars, just what did Anders change?

[10K]

In Exile wrote...

mosesarose wrote...
I think Anders really just wants the mages to start fighting for their freedoms. He's tired of seeing the templars abuse their power harming mages without cause, just because they can.  

What about mages that don't value that? Like Flynn (or whatever his name was) from Witch Hunt? He outright tells you that he doesn't want to go out of the Tower, even though he was free to do so for a very long time. 

The cirlcle is all Finn knows. He accept his role as a cirlcle mage (This is what Anders dislike, mages accepting their place in the circle when they know nothing else of the outside word). Finn is one of those mages whom are lucky enough not to have been abuse, or harrased by the templars. You asked me what about Finn or other mages who accept their place in the circle. But what about those mages who are abused by the templars? What about those mages who want to have a family one day but can't? What about those mages who are forced into tranquilty with no say in the matter? Mages can't do anything without Chantry or Templar permission and that's what really makes Anders unhappy, mages have no say over their own lives.

In Exile wrote...

Anders uses this stunt to give the mages no other choices but to fight, and as I said he relies on Meredith for this also. And sure some mages may have died, some may have turned into abomination, and innocents my have been caught in all this mess. But sacrifices must be made in any conflict, and Kirkwall is that sacrifice. Now circles are rebelling all over Thedas for their freedoms, and I think that's what Anders wanted most and he he got it.

What gives Anders the right to decide that every mage in Kirkwall has to die for the sake of his Crusade? There is an insane gulf between standing up against systemic abuse and engineering the massacre of innocents to force people into a war. 

And Anders actions amounted to exactly meaningless slaughter. The mages were clearly up in arms about the Chantry already, and seemed to be on the verge of pushing out the Chantry anyway. People like Fiona didn't need Anders conspiring to bring about another (potentially justified, in the eyes of some) Annulment. 

The very reason that Leliana was in Kirkwall to begin with was the paranoid fear of the Chantry that groups like the Libertarians would push to break free from the Chantry. As early as DA:A we had Wynne tell us that the mages wanted to move for greater freedom, even outright separation from the Chantry.

So I ask you again - other than at the very least engineering the painful physical and spiritual mutiliation of a group of already abused mages in Kirkwall, not to mention their (probable) violent death at the hands of the templars, just what did Anders change?

I never said Anders had the right to do what he's done. I said he do what he's done to get what HE WANTS, and that is to stop mages from accepting the circle as their entire life. He dislike mages conforming to the Chantry and Templars demands and he uses Kirkwall as a tool to achieve this. And to answer your question on what Anders changed. He change the mages, he caused them to not accept the lives they are given within the circle. He causes them to rebel and fight for their freedom, what is Ultimately what he wanted in the first place.   

Modifié par mosesarose, 17 avril 2013 - 08:42 .

[bmwcrazy]

I actually liked him in Awakening, but I just had to kill him after what happened in DA2.

[Dabrikishaw]

I've yet to kill Anders, I'm going to try that in my Templar run.

[Rawgrim]

EdwinLi wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


Is this confirmed somewhere?

You seriously didn't know the Inquisitor's mission is to stop or escolate the Mage vs Templar war? It was shown at the end of DA2 that with Hawke and the Warden missing someone else has to interfer and stop the war. Even the strategy guide said at the final line "Will some kind of inquisition be at the heart of events of the next Dragon Age title?"

Basically the Inquisitor has to fix everything Hawke broke in DA2.

And how do you know we will be playing an inquisitor?

[Rawgrim]

Anders died in Amaranthine, in my playthrough. About the same time he was also heading into the deep roads with Hawke. The guy has plot armour.

[NorwegianPirate]

I'm guessing players who spared Anders will get something out of it, if even just a cameo or a mention. Perhaps the choice of sparing him will end up being either detrimental or beneficial depending on which faction you choose to support, like choosing to overwrite the heretics is beneficial if you side with the geth in ME3 and vice versa. Or something.

[Fast Jimmy]

Rawgrim wrote...

Anders died in Amaranthine, in my playthrough. About the same time he was also heading into the deep roads with Hawke. The guy has plot armour.

Apparently, the timeline in The World of Thedas clears some of this up.