198 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

Renmiri1 wrote...

No not all the mages are dead. Hwke / Anders might survive and Bethany might and the only reason the mages story get told is because at least ONE survived.

Varic survives. The story is told regardless of whatever else happens.

[In Exile]

Renmiri1 wrote...
No not all the mages are dead. MageHawke / Anders might survive and Bethany survives if Hawke isnt a mage.

Bethany is very likely made tranquil. That's what surrendering to the templars means - DG confirmed it. And the idea that the Chantry actually wouldn't immediately torture and execute the abomination who nuked the chantry is nuts.

the mages story get told is because at least ONE survived.

What story? No one knows the actual story! Cassandra thinks Hawke engineered the whole thing to get the mage rebellion going (or alternatively to get to become Viscount). 

[Renmiri1]

Malanek999 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

No not all the mages are dead. Hwke / Anders might survive and Bethany might and the only reason the mages story get told is because at least ONE survived.

Varic survives. The story is told regardless of whatever else happens.

Merril survives

What story? No one knows the actual story! Cassandra thinks Hawke engineered the whole thing to get the mage rebellion going (or alternatively to get to become Viscount).

There is enough doubt that Cassandra asks Varric for the truth. Every other anulled circle story consists of 2 sentences:
- Mages did Blood magic
- Abominations  were put to death by valliant templars defending Thedas

Modifié par Renmiri1, 18 avril 2013 - 01:54 .

[Zelto]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Merril survives

She can apparently die, if Hawke sides with the templars and didn't bother completing her companion quests, never seen it personally though, so just going by what the wiki says.

Merrill

So it does seem that its possible that if you side with the templars all mages in Kirkwall can be killed during the annulment.

Modifié par Zelto, 18 avril 2013 - 02:58 .

[NorwegianPirate]

Zelto wrote...

She can apparently die, if Hawke sides with the templars and didn't bother completing her companion quests, never seen it personally though, so just going by what the wiki says.

For anyone who's up for a little heartbreak, here is the scene in question.

[Renmiri1]

Zelto wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Merril survives

She can apparently die, if Hawke sides with the templars and didn't bother completing her companion quests, never seen it personally though, so just going by what the wiki says.

Merrill

So it does seem that its possible that if you side with the templars all mages in Kirkwall can be killed during the annulment.

Hawke not-a-mage. Bethany dead on Deep Roads. Kill Anders. Let Merril die. Don't save Emille. = No known mages survive

But there are still mages with you when you get to the courtiard for the final battle with Meredith. Are you telling me none survived ?

[Zelto]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Hawke not-a-mage. Bethany dead on Deep Roads. Kill Anders. Let Merril die. Don't save Emille. = No known mages survive

But there are still mages with you when you get to the courtiard for the final battle with Meredith. Are you telling me none survived ?

Well the templars ordered the right of annulment, which means they are meant to kill all mages. With Meredith dead it may or may not have been carried out fully, I don't believe its ever stated.

Obviously any apostates still alive in Kirkwall will probably survive as the templars don't know about them but you can certainly say that very nearly all of Kirkwall's mages are dead due to Anders in this situation.

Therefore unless you support the mages all Anders achieves is the deaths of nearly every mage.

Either Hawke sides with the mages, resulting in some of them surviving (still a large number are killed, along with a large number of templars, some of whom likely never even abused the mages but just did their jobs) and therefore Anders managed to achieve his goal at the cost of hundreds of innocent lives.

Or Hawke doesn't in which case Anders simply managed to kill a bunch of civilians and as a result every known mage in Kirkwall is dead.

How was Anders helpful in this? How did that help the mages rise up? How did his actions help prevent the abuse of mages? How did he help save mages lives? Hawke can help by siding with them at the end, all Anders did was make it worse.

Modifié par Zelto, 19 avril 2013 - 11:32 .

[Renmiri1]

Zelto wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Hawke not-a-mage. Bethany dead on Deep Roads. Kill Anders. Let Merril die. Don't save Emille. = No known mages survive

But there are still mages with you when you get to the courtiard for the final battle with Meredith. Are you telling me none survived ?

Well the templars ordered the right of annulment, which means they are meant to kill all mages. With Meredith dead it may or may not have been carried out fully, I don't believe its ever stated.

Obviously any apostates still alive in Kirkwall will probably survive as the templars don't know about them but you can certainly say that very nearly all of Kirkwall's mages are dead due to Anders in this situation.

Therefore unless you support the mages all Anders achieves is the deaths of nearly every mage.

Either Hawke sides with the mages, resulting in some of them surviving (still a large number are killed, along with a large number of templars, some of whom likely never even abused the mages but just did their jobs) and therefore Anders managed to achieve his goal at the cost of hundreds of innocent lives.

Or Hawke doesn't in which case Anders simply managed to kill a bunch of civilians and as a result every known mage in Kirkwall is dead.

How was Anders helpful in this? How did that help the mages rise up? How did his actions help prevent the abuse of mages? How did he help save mages lives? Hawke can help by siding with them at the end, all Anders did was make it worse.

You are making the assumption that a pro-Templar Hawke would stand by idly letting Templars kill every surviving mage, after Meredith is defeated. Which is completely off base. Hawke had a mage father and a mage sister and joins the Templars for many reasons but genocide for mages isn't one.

And Cullen rebels against Meredith's radicalism so I doubt he would go on to kill all surving mages as well. Would Aveline support annulment of people who had nothing to do with Anders act ? The only one defending and pushing annulment is Meredith, who is revealed to be possessed by a demonic force herself.

There is no annulment after Meredith dies. Anders act saved mages lives.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 avril 2013 - 02:52 .

[Zelto]

Renmiri1 wrote...

You are making the assumption that a pro-Templar Hawke would stand by idly letting Templars kill every surviving mage, after Meredith is defeated. Which is completely off base. Hawke had a mage father and a mage sister and joins the Templars for many reasons but genocide for mages isn't one.

And Cullen rebels against Meredith's radicalism so I doubt he would go on to kill all surving mages as well. Would Aveline support annulment of people who had nothing to do with Anders act ? The only one defending and pushing annulment is Meredith, who is revealed to be possessed by a demonic force herself.

There is no annulment after Meredith dies. Anders act saved mages lives.

You make just as many assumptions. Merediths sister was a mage, she hates mages, Hawkes mother was killed by a mage, if he is willing to kill a companion he knows well, his sister and countless other mages, you really think he will care about a few mages he doesn't even know. Cullen is not convinced it is required yes, but at the same time he only rebels when Meredith trys to kill Hawke, also Cullen is shown to follow Hawkes advice so if Hawke said they should all be killed then Cullen may very well follow his advise again.

Besides that, Anders causes the annulment, he causes the deaths of all of the mages up till Meredith is killed regardless of whether they continue the annulment or not. Those mages would not necessary have died without Ander's actions. The right of annulment only starts after the chantry is blown up.

Anders causes the death of every templar, mage and civilian that are killed in the fighting after the chantry is blown up.

[Vit246]

*EDIT*

Zelto wrote...
Anders causes the death of every templar, mage and civilian that are killed in the fighting after the chantry is blown up.

Let me put it this way. 

Templars are expected to die if necessary in their duties.

Mages in the Circle have already been getting killed for 9 centuries now. A lot of them early deaths at the hands of Templars through an annual Right of Annulment. And there was very little sign of any of it changing. So they might as well fight since they have nothing else to lose. All they needed was a final catalyst. A Cortez who burned all the ships.

And I'm not sure what civilians you're talking about exactly. Inside the Kirkwall Chantry, there were no civilians. Only Elthina, and few Templars, and presumably a couple clergywomen. All Chantry gov't officials. Not really civilians. Remember the Chantry was blown up at night, and the Chantry is normally closed to the public at night. Also, before the explosion, Templar death squads were already willing to kill civilians for sheltering and feeding mage.

As for the outside streets, well it sucks and its unlikely that there are no dead civilians. And for that Anders is completely willing to die for his actions. But then again, lots of innocent blood have already been spilt for 9 centuries.

Modifié par Vit246, 19 avril 2013 - 05:41 .

[andy6915]

More mages survived then anyone in here seems to realize.

"MANY lived to tell the tale"




Observe 1:40 to 1:48

Now stop acting like almost none survived if Hawke helps them.

[Renmiri1]

 Anders causes the death of every templar, mage and civilian that are killed in the fighting after the chantry is blown up

Yes he does but those would have died just the same if Meredith used the right of annulment. She had already asked for it. Kirkwall was a powder keg and so is Thedas. Asunder shows us there are other hot headed mages fed up with the Templar's abuse that would go to extremes - even killing another mage - to provoke the mage rebellion 

re: Hawke killing all mages - I don't agree with you that Hawke would, he / she is not Meredith. In the "Last Straw" quest Hawke's companions are evenly divided in the need to help Templars. But ALL companions are 100 percent against killing innocent people. You may have role-played your Hawke as a mass murderer but the game options and mechanics and writing was not made for that extreme. 

We can argue hipotheticals until we are blue in the face but the FACT is that there is a very narrow set of circunstances that allows your theory of no mages on Hawke's party. Hawke needs to be non-mage, needs to have lost Bethany on the deep roads and needs to have ignored Merril's loyalty quest. Hawke also needs to have killed Emille on Act 3.

So FACT is that no mages on Hawke's party  is not a common ending of the game. FACT is that no companion is on the side of killing the tower mages, that we all know are innocent of the Chantry bombing. FACT is that Cullen refuses to follow Merediths orders. FACT is that Cullen has shown a respect for justice and has been merciful to innocent mages all through DA2.

Your theory that Cullen, Hawke and his /her companions would all of a sudden complete Meredith's orders after killing her and seeing she was not in her right mind, and knowing the tower mages are innocent is very unplausible. I'd say completely wrong but I know you won't agree. So please do dig up some instance on the entire DA2 supporting your case. A scene where Hawke, companions and Cullen have displayed a wish to kill all mages regardless of fault or guilt.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 avril 2013 - 03:51 .

[Renmiri1]

andy69156915 wrote...

More mages survived then anyone in here seems to realize.

"MANY lived to tell the tale"




Observe 1:40 to 1:48

Now stop acting like almost none survived if Hawke helps them.

+1,000,000

[andy6915]

Renmiri1 wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

More mages survived then anyone in here seems to realize.

"MANY lived to tell the tale"




Observe 1:40 to 1:48

Now stop acting like almost none survived if Hawke helps them.

+1,000,000

You know what's funny? I also once thought all the mages died regardless of Hawke's choice, but then the person I was arguing with posted that exact video to prove me wrong. I remembered that thanks to this current discussion about how many surived, and found the link in that thread to post here.

[Renmiri1]

Look, I absolutely get that many think terrorists must die and terrorism is awful. Believe it or not, so do I

Renmiri1 wrote... (on this very thread)

Heh today is not a good day to debate Anders. 2 bombs exploded at Boston Marathon just now :/

But that is RL. In a videogame I kill pixel people, I steal, I am buddies and BFF with assassins, pirates and serial killers. Terrorists are not that different. And IMHO, killing for money or status is much worse than killing to prevent the systematic raping, lobotomizing and enslaving of your people.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 avril 2013 - 03:59 .

[erilben]

Renmiri1 wrote...

By acting first he saved some mages' lives. All other anulled circles had no mages left alive to tell their side of the story. Anders didn't give Meredith the opportunity to do that in Kirkwal. And that is how all Thedas heard about Meredith's madness and abuse.

Anders was willing to sacrifice the Kirkwall Circle mages. He kills the Elthina which gives Meredith the authority to call for a Right of Annulment. Anders could have killed Meredith, and Cullen probably would have became the knight-commander, and there wouldn't be a Right of Annulment. He didn't want that though.

As for how many mages live, it seems just to depend on who Hawke sides with. On the templar side, you don't get the "many lived" and Meredith actually delcares the Annulment to be done before she turns on Hawke.

Modifié par erilben, 19 avril 2013 - 04:24 .

[andy6915]

erilben wrote...

As for how many mages live, it seems just to depend on who Hawke sides with. On the templar side, you don't get the "many lived" and Meredith actually delcares the Annulment to be done before she turns on Hawke.

Yeah, Hawke is the difference maker. If Hawke sides with the Templars, the slaughter is thorough and total. If Hawke sides with the mages, many live to see the next day. Eitther way it's all because of how much ass Hawke kicks for whoever he/she helps out.

[Monica21]

 I honestly don't get the thinking that Anders is justified in any way, shape, or form. I do get the "it's a videogame" argument, but the actions mirror far too many real life events that have taken place just in the past 10 or 15 years for it leave anything but the taste of bile in the back of my throat. Anders created a magical fertilizer bomb and killed innocents to start a war. It's lazy, sloppy writing and I expected better of BioWare than to create such a scenario. If it looks too much like real life, then don't ****ing do it.

There is no good argument for this.

[Vit246]

Monica21 wrote...

 I honestly don't get the thinking that Anders is justified in any way, shape, or form. I do get the "it's a videogame" argument, but the actions mirror far too many real life events that have taken place just in the past 10 or 15 years for it leave anything but the taste of bile in the back of my throat. Anders created a magical fertilizer bomb and killed innocents to start a war. It's lazy, sloppy writing and I expected better of BioWare than to create such a scenario. If it looks too much like real life, then don't ****ing do it.

There is no good argument for this.

He did not kill innocents. Not intentionally anyway as collateral damage. His target was always the Chantry. The Grand Cleric, the Templars, the Kirkwall Chantry, the entire Chantry, were not innocent. And he did not start a war. That war already started over 900 years ago. And the mentioned people are responsible for it. Anders was actually trying to end it in a way. Either the Circles will be massacred again like always before with annual Annulments and executions for over 900 years or this time they will finally break free from the Chantry's hold.

I find it to be sloppy lazy writing that Bioware actually made Anders create a magical bomb and blow up a building in a way that invokes that buzzword "terrorism". Its cheap and too easy.

Modifié par Vit246, 19 avril 2013 - 05:57 .

[Monica21]

Vit246 wrote...
He did not kill innocents. Not intentionally anyway as collateral damage. His target was always the Chantry. The Grand Cleric, the Templars, the Kirkwall Chantry, the entire Chantry, were not innocent. And he did not start a war. That war already started over 900 years ago. And the mentioned people are responsible for it. Anders was actually trying to end it in a way. Either the Circles will be massacred again like always before with annual Annulments and executions for over 900 years or this time they will finally break free from the Chantry's hold.

I find it to be sloppy lazy writing that Bioware actually made Anders create a magical bomb and blow up a building in a way that invokes that buzzword "terrorism". Its cheap and too easy.

He did kill innocents. The Grand Cleric was the only person who could have told Meredith what to do. If she was his target then fine, but he didn't just kill her, nor did he even bother targeting Templars. He killed the people who lived and worked in the Chantry. You think lay sisters have houses? No, they live in the Chantry. What did those people do? Guilt by association doesn't work here. I'm not a guilty party if my boss is an embezzler, and the Chantry as a whole is not guilty for the treatment of the mages in the Kirkwall Circle.

[Zelto]

Vit246 wrote...

He did not kill innocents. Not intentionally anyway as collateral damage. His target was always the Chantry. The Grand Cleric, the Templars, the Kirkwall Chantry, the entire Chantry, were not innocent. And he did not start a war. That war already started over 900 years ago. And the mentioned people are responsible for it. Anders was actually trying to end it in a way. Either the Circles will be massacred again like always before with annual Annulments and executions for over 900 years or this time they will finally break free from the Chantry's hold.

I find it to be sloppy lazy writing that Bioware actually made Anders create a magical bomb and blow up a building in a way that invokes that buzzword "terrorism". Its cheap and too easy.

Right of Annulment

17 times in over 900 years is hardly annual!

Modifié par Zelto, 19 avril 2013 - 06:47 .

[wright1978]

Zelto wrote...

Firstly this clearly has spoilers for Dragon Age 2 so don't
read if you want to play it!

Having just replayed Dragon Age 2 and chose to kill Anders (again) at the end
as I totally disagree with the actions he takes at the end.

Since DA:I will import from DA:2 I really hope that the consequences of that
choice are not negative. I really do not want to see that siding with a
terrorist or allowing them to escape unpunished is somehow the optimal choice
in DA:I.

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.

[Angrywolves]

Dead as my Hawke stabbed him. Good riddance.

[Renmiri1]

Monica21 wrote...

 I honestly don't get the thinking that Anders is justified in any way, shape, or form. I do get the "it's a videogame" argument, but the actions mirror far too many real life events that have taken place just in the past 10 or 15 years for it leave anything but the taste of bile in the back of my throat. Anders created a magical fertilizer bomb and killed innocents to start a war. It's lazy, sloppy writing and I expected better of BioWare than to create such a scenario. If it looks too much like real life, then don't ****ing do it.

There is no good argument for this.

Actually I really liked the similarities to RL. Did you notice the Chantry had twin towers ? I found it really bold and GOOD WRITING. It is amazing that Bioware managed to bring up something so recent and so traumatic in a work of art, and not be crucified by it. 

That they managed to pull it off, only a decade after 9/11 is a testament to their talent as writers. And a much needed reminder that terrorism isn't born in a vacuum. The Boston bombers from this Tuesday have just been identified as from Chechnya. A country brutalized by the soviet union and by Putin. Hamas suicide bombers ? Just look at Palestinian refugee camps. 

Sure it is awful that they came here, to my country, to kill innocent people as some sort of revenge / attention ploy for the horrors that happen on Chechya. No, I don't think it is fair what they did, I don't condone terrorism. But to pretend it comes out of nowhere is to bury our head in the sand.

On DAO Bioware "explains" to us how someone can have a good heart and still be an assassin - Zevran is sold into slavery to the crows when just a kid. On DA2 Bioware shows to us how someone with a good heart - a healer that spends 7 years treating poor people for free and helping refugees - can turn into a monster that throws a bomb. They highly suggest that it involves mental illnes/ madness with the Justice bit. I wish it was that simple, some RL terrorists are quite lucid.

DA2 is one of the few mass market works of art that dares to "go there" and make people think about where terrorism comes from. I am grateful for it because I think wrapping ourselves in a flag and going to "kill all towelheads" has brought US nothing but grief and failure. We need to gorw up and see this as adults. Like UK (IRA), Italy (Red Brigades), Germany (Bader Meinhoff) and others who managed to defeat terrorism without carpet bombing an entire country. 

[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

You are making the assumption that a pro-Templar Hawke would stand by idly letting Templars kill every surviving mage, after Meredith is defeated. Which is completely off base. Hawke had a mage father and a mage sister and joins the Templars for many reasons but genocide for mages isn't one.

I'm not inclined to say pro-templar, because the choice really has nothing to do with whether one agrees or disagrees with the mages or templars. It's a choice of siding with Meredith, or siding against Meredith to protect the mages. I know some pro-templar players sided against Meredith because her actions to condemn the entire Circle to death make no sense when Anders alone destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry.

As for that choice, Hawke siding with Meredith against hundreds of men, women, and children who did nothing wrong is an issue. The Knight-Commander is condemning all the mages to death for the actions of one man - who happens to be standing right in front of her (and who she proceeds to pretty much handwave in the process). The fact that Hawke sided with her in the first place is an issue, since the Champion is helping Meredith kill hundreds of people who are innocent of Anders' actions. Given how Varric only notes that "many survivors" transpires if Hawke protects the mages from Meredith, I wouldn't be surprised if Hawke continued to help kill the mages after Meredith had been killed. Even Cullen didn't oppose the Right of Annulment until Meredith explicitly threatened Hawke.

Renmiri1 wrote...

And Cullen rebels against Meredith's radicalism so I doubt he would go on to kill all surving mages as well.

Cullen goes against Meredith when she threatens Hawke, which really makes no sense for a pro-mage Hawke who has been killing templars to protect the mages - especially since the Champion hasn't surrendered to the Knight-Commander.

Renmiri1 wrote...

Would Aveline support annulment of people who had nothing to do with Anders act ? The only one defending and pushing annulment is Meredith, who is revealed to be possessed by a demonic force herself.

Aveline initially wants to help Meredith, and sides against her if Hawke decides to protect the mages because of how asinine the Knight-Commander's plan is. Even Awakening showed players that you don't give in to a mob - much less a hypothetical one (in this case).

Renmiri1 wrote...

There is no annulment after Meredith dies. Anders act saved mages lives. 

There are only many survivors from Kirkwall if Hawke decides to protect them against Meredith and her templars, and he becomes a hero to the mages in the process. I do think that Anders' actions changed things for the mages across Thedas.