198 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

...

Hawke gives his / her reason to side with Templars: Keep casualties to a minimum.  Does that sound to you like someone who will hunt each and every innocent mage after Meredith is defeated ?

 Keep casualties to a minimum = Hawke DOES NOT kill all mages. Even when siding with templars.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 avril 2013 - 08:08 .

[Monica21]

Renmiri1 wrote...
Actually I really liked the similarities to RL. Did you notice the Chantry had twin towers ? I found it really bold and GOOD WRITING. It is amazing that Bioware managed to bring up something so recent and so traumatic in a work of art, and not be crucified by it.

This is a huge load of crap. If BioWare deliberately put twin towers on the Kirkwall Chantry to even make it remotely resemble the WTC, then I'll have to lay even more shame and blame at their feet. Second, it's TERRIBLE writing. Terrrorism is the coward's way of making a point and to think anything but is the sign of a lazy, complacent mind, both for the writer and for person who "really liked" it.

That they managed to pull it off, only a decade after 9/11 is a testament to their talent as writers. And a much needed reminder that terrorism isn't born in a vacuum. The Boston bombers from this Tuesday have just been identified as from Chechnya. A country brutalized by the soviet union and by Putin. Hamas suicide bombers ? Just look at Palestinian refugee camps.

Except they didn't pull it off. Not long after DA2 was released the killings in Norway happened by... who? That's right. A guy named Anders who tossed grenades and killed 82 people. Every single thread questioning any relationship between the two was shut down. They utterly and completely failed. Second, the marathon bombers were born in Chechnya, grew up in Kyrgyzstan, and emigrated to the United States about 10 years ago. Whatever it is you think may have happened to them in Chechnya did not happen.

Does terrorism happen in a vacuum? Of course not. Does that make terrorism okay? Never.

[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

...

Hawke gives his / her reason to side with Templars: Keep casualties to a minimum.  Does that sound to you like someone who will hunt each and every innocent mage after Meredith is defeated ?

 Keep casualties to a minimum = Hawke DOES NOT kill all mages. Even when siding with templars.

Meredith orders the execution of every mage in Kirkwall, which is explicitly made clear in the link you have provided; she is condemning hundreds of people to death for the actions of a man standing right in front of her. "As Knight-Commander of Kirkwall, I hereby invoke the Right of Annulment. Every mage in the Circle is to be executed - immediately!"

How can pro-Meredith Hawke expect to save lives when he's helping the Knight-Commander kill them? There's a reason that Varric only mentions there being "many survivors" if Hawke protects the mages from Meredith.

[Renmiri1]

Whatever it is you think may have happened to them in Chechnya did not happen.

Same for shoe bomber, London bombers, etc.. Curiously enough, usually it is the sons who have grown outside of the hellhole that bring terrorism to EU and US. People educated in good schools that never starved or were exposed to the ghastly things their countrymen / ethnic group were are more likely to lash out at us here in the West. The ones on Palestine, Chechnya, etc.. attack the actual oppressors or someone close to them.

Which shows they are cowards. It is easy to go to an unarmed and unprepared city and drop a few bombs in a leisure gathering like a race. If they really had guts they would fly to Chechnya and join the fight there.

Anders was a coward too, he should have bombed the Gallows. But it would be harder, and it would risk killing mages so he went for unprotected unsuspecting Elthina.

But see, you say Biware didn't pull it off but they have not been subject to harassment like the Dixie Chicks or anyone who has criticized the War on Terror waged by Bush. And here we are debating terror.

They pulled it off and I think you, me and everyone else who played the game and thought about the real life paralells is better off for it. It let us see the horror of terrorism from a different angle. I can see it bothers you but I also see it made you think about terror, what it means, where does it come from. Making people think is one of the noblest functions of the Arts. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 avril 2013 - 08:25 .

[Monica21]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Whatever it is you think may have happened to them in Chechnya did not happen.

Same for shoe bomber, London bombers, etc.. Curiously enough, usually it is the sons who have grown outside of the hellhole that bring terrorism to EU and US. People educated in good schools that never starved or were exposed to the ghastly things their countrymen / ethnic group were are more likely to lash out at us here in the West. The ones on Palestine, Chechnya, etc.. attack the actual oppressors or someone close to them.

Which shows they are cowards. It is easy to go to an unarmed and unprepared city and drop a few bombs in a leisure gathering like a race. If they really had guts they would fly to Chechnya and join the fight there.

So, first the marathon bombers are like Anders and now they're not? And of course they're cowards. Terrorism is cowardly which is what I've been saying for four pages, and you still think it's great writing. Good job making completely indelicate and nonsensical posts.

[Renmiri1]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

...

Hawke gives his / her reason to side with Templars: Keep casualties to a minimum.  Does that sound to you like someone who will hunt each and every innocent mage after Meredith is defeated ?

 Keep casualties to a minimum = Hawke DOES NOT kill all mages. Even when siding with templars.

How can pro-Meredith Hawke expect to save lives when he's helping the Knight-Commander kill them? There's a reason that Varric only mentions there being "many survivors" if Hawke protects the mages from Meredith.

He says it. Shall I give you the time stamp on the video ? 5:15-5:30

He does it to minimize casualties and to avoid a furious lynch mob forming on Kyrkwall.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 avril 2013 - 08:31 .

[Renmiri1]

Monica21 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Whatever it is you think may have happened to them in Chechnya did not happen.

Same for shoe bomber, London bombers, etc.. Curiously enough, usually it is the sons who have grown outside of the hellhole that bring terrorism to EU and US. People educated in good schools that never starved or were exposed to the ghastly things their countrymen / ethnic group were are more likely to lash out at us here in the West. The ones on Palestine, Chechnya, etc.. attack the actual oppressors or someone close to them.

Which shows they are cowards. It is easy to go to an unarmed and unprepared city and drop a few bombs in a leisure gathering like a race. If they really had guts they would fly to Chechnya and join the fight there.

So, first the marathon bombers are like Anders and now they're not? And of course they're cowards. Terrorism is cowardly which is what I've been saying for four pages, and you still think it's great writing. Good job making completely indelicate and nonsensical posts.

Yes tehy are.. you missed my edit, I think. Anders does the same, goes for the easy kill.

[wright1978]

Monica21 wrote...

This is a huge load of crap. If BioWare deliberately put twin towers on the Kirkwall Chantry to even make it remotely resemble the WTC, then I'll have to lay even more shame and blame at their feet. Second, it's TERRIBLE writing. Terrrorism is the coward's way of making a point and to think anything but is the sign of a lazy, complacent mind, both for the writer and for person who "really liked" it.

.....

Does terrorism happen in a vacuum? Of course not. Does that make terrorism okay? Never.

While i despise terrorism, i fully applaud Dragon Age for having the guts to deal with the subject of terrorism through Anders, and the horrendous methods they use, no matter how pious they claim their idealogy to be.

[Renmiri1]

wright1978 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

This is a huge load of crap. If BioWare deliberately put twin towers on the Kirkwall Chantry to even make it remotely resemble the WTC, then I'll have to lay even more shame and blame at their feet. Second, it's TERRIBLE writing. Terrrorism is the coward's way of making a point and to think anything but is the sign of a lazy, complacent mind, both for the writer and for person who "really liked" it.

.....

Does terrorism happen in a vacuum? Of course not. Does that make terrorism okay? Never.

While i despise terrorism, i fully applaud Dragon Age for having the guts to deal with the subject of terrorism through Anders, and the horrendous methods they use, no matter how pious they claim their idealogy to be.

Agreed 100%

[Monica21]

Cool, editing after posting. 

Renmiri1 wrote...
Anders was a coward too, he should have bombed the Gallows. But it would be harder, and it would risk killing mages so he went for unprotected unsuspecting Elthina.

You're making the argument that he should bomb the Gallows for the crimes of a few Templars? Let's not forget the Templars who help you find Keran, Keran himself, Emeric, Thrask, and Cullen. In addition to the fact that Meredith didn't approve of the "Tranquil Solution" plot Anders thought everyone was up to.

But see, you say Biware didn't pull it off but they have not been subject to harassment like the Dixie Chicks or anyone who has criticized the War on Terror waged by Bush. And here we are debating terror.

The Dixie Chicks was a far bigger scale. Most of the attempts at debate happened on BioWare's forum and was shut down by BioWare. 

They pulled it off and I think you, me and everyone else who played the game and thought about the real life paralells is better off for it. It let us see the horror of terrorism from a different angle. I can see it bothers you but I also see it made you think about terror, what it means, where does it come from. Making people think is one of the noblest functions of the Arts. 

If you think they pulled it off because that's how the game finished, I strongly disagree. I do not and have never denied that there are reasons people become terrorists. There are also reasons people are pedophiles. One thing I won't do is sit down and try to figure out what's wrong with me because someone else decided that murdering innocents and inciting chaos is the answer.

(Oh, and seriously? The ARTS? DA2 is ART now? Child, please.)

[Monica21]

wright1978 wrote...
While i despise terrorism, i fully applaud Dragon Age for having the guts to deal with the subject of terrorism through Anders, and the horrendous methods they use, no matter how pious they claim their idealogy to be.

I feel the need to again point out that Bioware did NOT deal with the subject of terrorism. Any thread linking the Norway killings to the game was locked. Very likely this thread will be locked for being off topic. It is not dealt with and Bioware has made no claims they intended Anders to be a social justice character. They created a character who's an unapologetic mass murderer. That's not "dealing" with terrorism.

[Renmiri1]

Monica21 wrote...

 Terrorism is cowardly which is what I've been saying for four pages, and you still think it's great writing. Good job making completely indelicate and nonsensical posts.

I can see discussing evil deeds like terrorism bothers you. My intent is not to offend, it is to debate a game and it's writing. Just because it broaches a subject you are not confortable with it doesn't mean it is badly written. On the contrary. It managed to get you past your obvious disconfort about the topic enough to wait for a new game from the same writers, and brave enough to discuss the topic that bothers you so much. 

That is what good writing does. Makes people think and face topics they would like to avoid. But not talking about evil doesn't make it go away. Understanding it's causes, understanding what makes some people hide terrorists in their houses - Eric Rudolf the Atlanta Olympics bomber hid in plain sight for years - is what gives us power to fight them.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 avril 2013 - 08:38 .

[mousestalker]

In DA:I all I want to see of Anders is a dejected blond mage shackled to a dejected whiny dark haired mage (Jowan) shackled to a dejected whiny blond elf (Cammen).

The only interaction the PC should be able to have with any of them is to be able to ask them, in turn, "Who's the big boy?"

[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

How can pro-Meredith Hawke expect to save lives when he's helping the Knight-Commander kill them? There's a reason that Varric only mentions there being "many survivors" if Hawke protects the mages from Meredith.

He says it. Shall I give you the time stamp on the video ? 5:15-5:30

He does it to minimize casualties and to avoid a furious lynch mob forming on Kyrkwall. 

Which still makes absolutely no sense. Hawke is going to "minimize casualities" by helping Meredith when she has ordered the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children? That's ridiculous.

[Renmiri1]

Monica21 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
While i despise terrorism, i fully applaud Dragon Age for having the guts to deal with the subject of terrorism through Anders, and the horrendous methods they use, no matter how pious they claim their idealogy to be.

I feel the need to again point out that Bioware did NOT deal with the subject of terrorism. Any thread linking the Norway killings to the game was locked. Very likely this thread will be locked for being off topic. It is not dealt with and Bioware has made no claims they intended Anders to be a social justice character. They created a character who's an unapologetic mass murderer. That's not "dealing" with terrorism.

I though we agreed that Anders commited a terrorist act ? At least you told me just above you have been saying Anders is a terrorist and terrorist are cowards for 4 pages.

What you can argue is how well Bioware dealt with the fact that a common name in Sweeden happened to be the name of a terrorist in RL, only months after they published a game with a terrorist like character with the same name. Locking threads was perhaps heavy handed but judging by how we still have people like you confusing the fact that a RL terrorist having a name as common as "Eric" in his country had the same name as a fictional character in a game means anything.

Shall we go protest any TV station that has ever had an evil character named Eric, like Eric Rudolph ? Timothy, like Timothy McVeigh ?

PS: OMG we had TIM on Mass Effect and he is eeevil just like McVeigh. Burn Bioware for siding with the daycare bomber!!! <_<

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 avril 2013 - 08:51 .

[Renmiri1]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

How can pro-Meredith Hawke expect to save lives when he's helping the Knight-Commander kill them? There's a reason that Varric only mentions there being "many survivors" if Hawke protects the mages from Meredith.

He says it. Shall I give you the time stamp on the video ? 5:15-5:30

He does it to minimize casualties and to avoid a furious lynch mob forming on Kyrkwall. 

Which still makes absolutely no sense. Hawke is going to "minimize casualities" by helping Meredith when she has ordered the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children? That's ridiculous.

Makes no sense to you but is game canon buddy. Hawke did not go around hunting mages after Meredith died. We have proof now.

but just to be nice.. I think IMHO that a pro-templar Hawke feared the entire city forming a linch mob to kill mages and all the violence and death that would result from mages defending themselves against non-mage civilians. So his /her goal was to restore order and have some kind of lawful response to the Chantry bombing, before things got taken out of everyones hands by a city wide riot. So he /she DID save lives, not only of mages, but of Kirkwal citizens.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 avril 2013 - 08:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Renmiri1 wrote...
That is what good writing does. Makes people think and face topics they would like to avoid. But not talking about evil doesn't make it go away. Understanding it's causes, understanding what makes some people hide terrorists in their houses - Eric Rudolf the Atlanta Olympics bomber hid in plain sight for years - is what gives us power to fight them.

Yea, if only DA2 actually did that, and not have everything be dictated one way or the other by tear in the veil, a sleeping darkspawn dreaming, demons, idol, and crazy spirits.

I undoubtedly say that what Anders did was the best thing that happened in Act 3 (which is not saying much at all). But to claim that they dealt with terrorism in a meaningful and indepth way? No, they did not.  

Had we seen the mage resistance in person, see how it's being split between moderates and the more extremists. Had we actually explored the resolutionists and not just massacre them. Had we seen with more depth how Anders reacts to them. Had we read bits of Anders' manifesto instead of being told he's writing something. Had we interacted with Justice / Vengeance more. Had there been no demons, tear in the veil, idol bs. Then, I would have agreed with you. 

But as it stands, the game does not deal with terrorism. It just puts it there to move the plot. 

I know games that portray terrorism in a much more in-depth and intelligent manner. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2013 - 09:08 .

[Monica21]

Renmiri1 wrote...
I can see discussing evil deeds like terrorism bothers you. My intent is not to offend, it is to debate a game and it's writing. Just because it broaches a subject you are not confortable with it doesn't mean it is badly written. On the contrary. It managed to get you past your obvious disconfort about the topic enough to wait for a new game from the same writers, and brave enough to discuss the topic that bothers you so much. 

That is what good writing does. Makes people think and face topics they would like to avoid. But not talking about evil doesn't make it go away. Understanding it's causes, understanding what makes some people hide terrorists in their houses - Eric Rudolf the Atlanta Olympics bomber hid in plain sight for years - is what gives us power to fight them.

I'm not afraid to talk about terrorism, I just don't think this is the forum for it. That said, the reason I called it indelicate is because the first act of terrorism that I can remember and being absolutely horrified by happened almost 20 years ago today. It was the Oklahoma City bombing. I know why Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building, but I still don't care because he was wrong and because the only thing I know about what he did is that it meant he lacked any degree of empathy. I don't care what happened to him or why he was mad. All I know is that he lashed out at a federal building, killing children in a daycare, because the government's response to the assault on the Branch Davidian compound a few years earlier angered him. I don't care that he was angry. I care about how he chose to direct that anger. 

And that doesn't make Anders' actions in DA2 "good writing. It's copycat writing. They couldn't think of anything else so they had him blow up a building, and that's what terrorists do. They can't think of anything better so they debliberately attempt to seed chaos. 

And that said, here's a quote from Christpher Hitchens who was far more eloquent on evey subject than I will ever hope to be: "These Al-Quada chaps, these killers and sadists and nihilists and producers of indiscriminate explosions, wouldn't be this way if we weren't so mean to them... Now this is masochism, but it's being offered to you by sadists."  So go ahead and give yourself 40 lashes or blame the American government for being so mean, and I'll continue to blame the perpetrators of terror for indiscriminate killing.

Modifié par Monica21, 19 avril 2013 - 08:56 .

[Renmiri1]

No argument about how shallow Act 3 was, and no arguments about your suggestions, it would have rocked.

But judging by the Monica's and others reactions here where the mere mention of it was an offense, I don't think Bioware would have gotten away with what you described. It is still a very raw topic and I was floored that they got away with the little that they included.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 avril 2013 - 09:02 .

[wright1978]

Monica21 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
While i despise terrorism, i fully applaud Dragon Age for having the guts to deal with the subject of terrorism through Anders, and the horrendous methods they use, no matter how pious they claim their idealogy to be.

I feel the need to again point out that Bioware did NOT deal with the subject of terrorism. Any thread linking the Norway killings to the game was locked. Very likely this thread will be locked for being off topic. It is not dealt with and Bioware has made no claims they intended Anders to be a social justice character. They created a character who's an unapologetic mass murderer. That's not "dealing" with terrorism.

Why wouldn't they lock an illogical linking of real life events to the events in their story?

(unapologetic mass murderer), That's pretty much a definition of a terrorist and it is up to the player to decide if he should die for his actions or try to atone for them(as far as i recall). There's a real life quandary behind his abhorrent actions just like there are in real life, which is how to deal with the subject.

[Monica21]

wright1978 wrote...
Why wouldn't they lock an illogical linking of real life events to the events in their story?

(unapologetic mass murderer), That's pretty much a definition of a terrorist and it is up to the player to decide if he should die for his actions or try to atone for them(as far as i recall). There's a real life quandary behind his abhorrent actions just like there are in real life, which is how to deal with the subject.

Your idea of "dealing with the subject" is whether or not your character decides to kill Anders?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Renmiri1 wrote...

No argument about how shallow Act 3 was, and no arguments about your suggestions, it would have rocked.

But judging by the Monica's and others where the mere mention of it was an offense, I don't think Bioware would have gotten away with what you described. It is still a very raw topic and I was floored that they got away with the little that they included.

Other games did far more than what DA2 did. 

Alpha Protocol gave us the option to ally with a terrorist, Shaheed, and even form mutual respect (he can even grow to respect an American patriot who's against the military-industrial complex). Heck, Shaheed can become an integral part of your end game plan. Add the whole military-industrial complex's machinations, the US government using terrorism for its geo-political interests, Shaheed's own rethoric, and many plot points in the game, and you can even understand where he's coming from. 

The Witcher 1 had the Scoia'Tael and Yaevinn, terrorists fighting other religiously motivated racist terrorists, and we see the radicalism and violence increasing on both sides in a vicious cycle spanning 4 chapters (what DA2 tried and failed miserably at). 

And The Witcher 2 had Iorveth, a mass murderering terroist that Anders wouldn't dream of becoming like, who they managed to make potentially sympathetic and on the course of changing his ways and embrace a cause higher than pointless acts of terror. 

Those three examples are daring and intelligent portrayals of terrorism. DA2 did nothing of this sort. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2013 - 09:03 .

[wright1978]

Monica21 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Why wouldn't they lock an illogical linking of real life events to the events in their story?

(unapologetic mass murderer), That's pretty much a definition of a terrorist and it is up to the player to decide if he should die for his actions or try to atone for them(as far as i recall). There's a real life quandary behind his abhorrent actions just like there are in real life, which is how to deal with the subject.

Your idea of "dealing with the subject" is whether or not your character decides to kill Anders?

That's ultimately the way the game gives you(the player) the chance to respond to the terrorist and his act of terror.

The game itself presents the issue of the 'mage repression' seriously which is the reason Anders cites for his atrocity. If they just had him doing it for kicks i'd be annoyed that they weren't taking terrorism seriously. As it is i kill Anders as i'm very much of Bono's opinion on terrorists(1987 IRA).

"They don't talk about the glory of killing for the revolution. What's the glory in taking a man from his bed and gunning him down in front of his wife and his children? Where's the glory in that? Where's the glory in bombing a Remembrance Day parade of old age pensioners, their medals taken out and polished up for the day. Where's the glory in that? To leave them dying or crippled for life or dead under the rubble of the revolution, that the majority of the people in my country don't want. No more!"

Modifié par wright1978, 19 avril 2013 - 09:09 .

[Renmiri1]

Monica21 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Why wouldn't they lock an illogical linking of real life events to the events in their story?

(unapologetic mass murderer), That's pretty much a definition of a terrorist and it is up to the player to decide if he should die for his actions or try to atone for them(as far as i recall). There's a real life quandary behind his abhorrent actions just like there are in real life, which is how to deal with the subject.

Your idea of "dealing with the subject" is whether or not your character decides to kill Anders?

No Monica. Is putting up the topic for thinking and discussion.

Hitchens was a very smart guy and he walked back a lot of the idiotic stuff he said while on the grip of shock from 9/11 including his support for the Iraq war.

To realize that terrorism comes from somewhere is not the same as "blame america". We in US are very messed up about terrorism. Europe has dealt with terrorists for decades without having to lock down cities every time a bomb goes off, or to want to carpet bomb a country every time they get hit. And they don't blame England or UK, they just are mature enough to discuss the terrorists mindsets, just as criminal profilers discuss serial killers motivations.

You don't think the guys at "CSI" blame the victims and think like the serial killers do you ? Yet they delve into the killers perceived motivations and his way of thinking TO BE ABLE TO CATCH KILLERS FASTER sooner, before someone else dies.

[TheBlackBaron]

DA isn't Mass Effect, which at least tried to place an emphasis on future actions having consequences (as to how well that worked, well ...). Dragon Age, being oriented around featuring different stories around the world (whether or not that's better than the "Shepard's story" model is irrelevant), pays much less attention to such things. You're allowed to fill out the storyline contours to some degree and maybe that nets you a cameo later on. But that's it.

Simply put, I doubt that Anders living will have a positive or negative effect on DA:I, simply because the game isn't oriented around that.