25 réponses à ce sujet

[CptPatch]

Any specilations about how long it might take a newly-born darkspawn to mature to where it can conduct combat in a Blight?  Where does it get its combat skills?  Where does it acquire its weapons and armor?  How does it ever develop enough finesse to best even a marginally competent human, elf, or dwarf Warrior?

Had this been an Army of the Dead, one could argue that the resurrected Warrior still retained much of his in-Life experience.  But darkspawn could ONLY be relying on "racial memory", essentially passed down in whatever passes as DNA in this fantasy setting.  I can see that working on a somewhat crude level, but finesse can only come from experience.

About the ONLY thing that I can see that would make the Blight successful is a _total_ reliance on tidal wave tactics.  That is, defenders simply get overrun by numbers.  That would seem to suggest that all of the snazzy hack-and-slash cutscenes are fairly bogus.  It would also suggest that even three-to-one odds aren't much of anything to worry about (as Oghren is worried about, storming the gates).

Where's the finesse coming from?

[Bhatair]

They pop out of the Broodmother fully grown.



They share a 'hive mind'



Their arms and armor are usually crafted by humans (maybe dwarves?) who become ghouls and wander down into the deep roads to find them.

[mousestalker]

The finesse is what the archdemon brings to the party. Without it, the darkspawn apparently operate on instinct. Ghouls (Ruck is almost one) make stuff for the darkspawn. Alphas, Emissaries, Ancients and Forgemaster darkspawn have more wits about them to varying degrees.

[StaticSilence]

-They are soul-less. Thus, would not retain any memory of their former selves.

-No capacity for communication (with the exception of a certain upcoming expansion called Awakenings) All the low level darkspawn just grunt and squel.

-They build their crap weapons and armor-  ala Darkspawn Forgemaster.

Pretty sure the codex says:
-Hurlocks used to be Human.
-Genlocks were Dwarves
-Ogres were Qunari.
-Shrieks were Elves *thanks Aezeal for the correction!*

Modifié par StaticSilence, 15 janvier 2010 - 10:46 .

[Aezeal]

Not true, read better.



Hurlocks where Humans and Ogres Qunari, that is true. The somewhat stealthy genlocks come from dwarves (no that doesn't explian the stealth one bit, on the contrary, but it does explian the small stature.)

From elves Shriek are spawned.



It's all in the codex

[StaticSilence]

bah, you are correct. my bad.   it's fixed now.

Modifié par StaticSilence, 15 janvier 2010 - 10:45 .

[ArathWoeeye]

StaticSilence wrote...

-They are soul-less. Thus, would not retain any memory of their former selves.

Do we actually know that they are soulless? Or do we just assume that?

Because I remember some guy with darkspawn taint somewhere in the game that goes (about the archdemon) "he called.. so beatiful" or something like that. Doesn't seem like "demon call, me go, me smash" sorta mindless soulless creature.

[StaticSilence]

If slain by a non-warden, the archdemon's soul will hop to the next nearest darkspawn, because they are empty. Riordan says so.

Hence when the warden makes the killing blow, the arch demon tries to hop into the warden (being tainted and all) 2 souls + 1 body = 1 massive soul supernova. goodbye archdemon, and goodbye warden.

A ghoul isn't quite a darkspawn, just a person tainted- quite heavily.  Branka's assistant near the broodmother was a ghoul.  Ruck was a ghoul (he ate darkspawn corpses to survive)  A warden takes just a little of the blood to taint himself to hear and feel the darkspawn.  Eventually the taint spreads after 30 years, you hear "The Calling" poooof, congratulations you are a ghoul now also.

Modifié par StaticSilence, 15 janvier 2010 - 11:55 .

[ArathWoeeye]

I may have gotten you wrong but if you are saying

"AD can hop into a darkspawn so it must not have a soul"

then if AD can hop into a Grey Warden... either wardens lack soul or that logic is flawed.

[Bhatair]

They hop to the nearest being that carries the Darkspawn taint.
If it's a souless darkspawn it just generates a new Archdemon. Since apparently two souls can't be contained in the same vessel, if it jumps to a Grey Warden they both go kablooey.

[SusanStoHelit]

Yes - if the darkspawn had a soul, logically it would go 'kablooey' too.

[Darkemorrow]

ArathWoeeye wrote...

I may have gotten you wrong but if you are saying
"AD can hop into a darkspawn so it must not have a soul"
then if AD can hop into a Grey Warden... either wardens lack soul or that logic is flawed.

To clarify, when the Archdemon dies its soul goes into the nearest darkspawn, and remains intact because darkspawn have no souls. So even though its body is destroyed, its soul remains. Which is bad, since presumably it can still control the Blight even without being in its dragon form.

However, if the killing blow is struck by a Grey Warden, the Archdemon enters the Grey Warden instead. Because Wardens do have souls, the two souls clash with one another, and both are destroyed. Thus the Archdemon gets destroyed in both body and soul and the Blight is ended.

The whole logic of this depends on the fact that Grey Wardens have souls and darkspawn do not.

Modifié par Darkemorrow, 16 janvier 2010 - 12:20 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Darkemorrow wrote...

So even though its body is destroyed, its soul remains. Which is bad, since presumably it can still control the Blight even without being in its dragon form.

Not quite - the darkspawn who is taken over by the archdemon then turns into a dragon. Or that is my understanding - please correct me if I'm wrong.

[tetracycloide]

Doesn't the game really back all this up more than deny it? The warden regularly beats groups of darkspawn with 3 to 1 odds, in some cases 5 or even 7+ to 1. The story opens on the king and the wardens preparing for yet another wave of darkspawn having defeated every army that came before it handily yet the darkspawn always returned in greater numbers. It would appear from the events in the story that the darkspawn simply exhibit massively faster population growth than other humanoid species. By all accounts numbers are exactly what they use to overwhelm the populations of Thedas. Pretty much the only thing that makes no sense is the conservation of mass but magic pretty much avoids that mess entirely.

[SusanStoHelit]

StaticSilence wrote...

Pretty sure the codex says:
-Hurlocks used to be Human.
-Genlocks were Dwarves
-Ogres were Qunari.
-Shrieks were Elves

My understanding is that Hurlocks (as an example) were not once human. They didn't mutate from human to hurlock. They were born as hurlocks. They are the offspring of a broodmother who was once human.

The same is true for the others.

[SusanStoHelit]

However, I've been wondering if it isn't maybe a case of both - some were once human (or elf, or dwarf, etc.) and others were spawned from broodmothers of that race.

Case in point being Tamlen from the Dalish Elf origin - some resources online refer to him as a ghoul, but he was labeled in the game as a tormented shriek.

Not as far as I know. Tamlen is a ghoul. Ruck's on his way there - but he won't turn into a genlock, he'll become a ghoul. I think that's just an incorrect label for Tamlen. Unless someone has other information that I haven't come across.

[SusanStoHelit]

Genetically speaking, if it's even relevant it would work like this:

Broodmother who was once human gives birth to hurlocks. But the other half of the biological material (sperm) is donated by (insofar as I can tell) any darkspawn. That is, could be hurlock, genlock, etc. Regardless of who is the 'father', the darkspawn offspring is hurlock - but could be carrying genlock genes - or any of the other types too.

All you have to do is go back a couple of generations to see that any given darkspawn (regardless of what type they are) could be carrying genes from all the races of Thedas - in theory at least. This would then explain how a genlock can be an Emissary - the genlock was not once a dwarf; although it's (brood)mother was a dwarf, it's 'father' could have been a hurlock or a shriek and thus supplied 'magical genes'.

[Edited for typos.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 16 janvier 2010 - 01:24 .

[CptPatch]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Genetically speaking, ...

An area that we are overlooking is parthogenesis: birth from an unfertilized egg.

NOWHERE is there any mention of sexual congress between darkspawn.  There is the conversion of a humanoid female into a broodmother, and mention that over her lifetime she can create more than a thousand offspring.  But that very possibly could just be like a a hen laying eggs that hatch into new chickens.

Note that amongst the darkspawn, there is NO indication of gender.  There are _types_ (as pointed out earlier).  And a description of How To Make A Broodmother.  Emissaries and Alphas may simply be a product of genetic randomness; some offspring just happen to be smarter than the others -- and with so few smart ones, they REALLY stand out.  They just happen to have a few more brain cells than their brethren.

Given the "hive mind" idea, I could see a scenario where the Emissaries and Alphas are _both_ "transmitters" and "receivers".  The vast bulk of darkspawn are like so many worker ants or bees, receiving their marching orders and simply doing what they're told to do.  The Emissaries and Alphas, otoh, have not only their own brain cells to work with, but can also call on any other less-intelligent darkspawn in their vicinity, effectively "expanding their mind" and increasing their cognitive functions.   They don't so much dominate the darkspawn around them (as in pack animal Alphas), as simply working the darkspawn around them, much like your mind controls your fingers.  And over the Emissaries and the Alphas working them (and all other darkspawn as well) is the archdemon.  And, of course, the archdemon is MUCH smarter than any Emissary or Alpha.  (Be very, very glad that a dragon's hands are ill-suited to do fine detail work.  Imagine the uber-weapons it might design and create.  As it is, with little in the way of tool-using ability, its thinking patterns are geared towards simple brute force and numbers.)

Modifié par CptPatch, 16 janvier 2010 - 04:04 .

[SusanStoHelit]

CptPatch wrote...

NOWHERE is there any mention of sexual congress between darkspawn.  There is the conversion of a humanoid female into a broodmother, and mention that over her lifetime she can create more than a thousand offspring.  But that very possibly could just be like a a hen laying eggs that hatch into new chickens.

"First day, they come and catch everyone.

Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat.

Third day, the men are all gnawed on again.

Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.

Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn.

Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.

Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.

Eighth day, we hated as she is violated.

Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin.

Now she does feast, as she's become the beast."

Violated generally = raped.

[Urazz]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

However, I've been wondering if it isn't maybe a case of both - some were once human (or elf, or dwarf, etc.) and others were spawned from broodmothers of that race.

Case in point being Tamlen from the Dalish Elf origin - some resources online refer to him as a ghoul, but he was labeled in the game as a tormented shriek.

Not as far as I know. Tamlen is a ghoul. Ruck's on his way there - but he won't turn into a genlock, he'll become a ghoul. I think that's just an incorrect label for Tamlen. Unless someone has other information that I haven't come across.

I figured darkspawn were born 2 different ways.

1. From the broodmother

2. A normal person gets infected by the taint.  they become a ghoul, and eventually turn into a darkspawn.  Men the standard darkspawn we see and women into broodmothers.

I figure if option 2 is possible for men but isn't generally practiced all that much since males are plentiful but women are not.  I'm thinking broodmothers either can't be birthed by other brood mothers or it's such a rare thing that it would just maintain the population and not make it grow.  So the darkspawn will need to abduct women to turn into brood mothers to increase their numbers.

Modifié par Urazz, 16 janvier 2010 - 04:34 .

[ijmorris]

This is a great discussion...I hope "Awakenings" clarifies it some...



I was under the impression that certain dead creatures were "reborn" as darkspawn...So, they took the corpses of qunari, brought them to the brood mother who, somehow, recreated them as darkspawn ogres...

[stribies]

When two goats mate, many things can happen.

[CptPatch]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

CptPatch wrote...
NOWHERE is there any mention of sexual congress between darkspawn.  There is the conversion of a humanoid female into a broodmother, and mention that over her lifetime she can create more than a thousand offspring.  But that very possibly could just be like a a hen laying eggs that hatch into new chickens.

"First day, they come and catch everyone.

Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat.

Third day, the men are all gnawed on again.

Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.

Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn.

Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.

Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.

Eighth day, we hated as she is violated.

Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin.

Now she does feast, as she's become the beast."

Violated generally = raped.

I contemplated that as well, but given the total absence of gender references re: darkspawn, I considered that possibility that it was simply part of the conversion process, like rigging her out for the darkspawn birthing process.  Perhaps inserting a "cork" in her posterior so _everything_ gets pumped into offspring.  ("Waste not, want not.")  Without some indication of what kind of darkspawn would serve as stud, there's no guarantee that "violate" = sexual intercourse.  And if one were to take the view that darkspawn are born nearly full-grown (as apparently many people here do), the .... exit portal would have to be VERY expanded.  (Ouch.)  I think such a violent transformation would certainly qualify as "violated".

I think another key to the transformation is "into her mouth they spew".  Sounds like forced feeding, with probably certain tainted bodily fluids to expedite the process.

****
Related to nothing in particular, but MANY years (decades, in fact) ago TSR ran a "Dungeon Masters Tournament".  Part of the entry application involved submitting an idea for a new monster.  My submission was Queens for Orcs, Goblins, and Kobolds.  They sort of were similar to the Alien Queen in "Aliens", but with the upper torso being of the appropriate race.  Impregnation was achieved NOT by sexual intercourse, but by "diverted digestion".  The Queen's Keepers (Queens were almost totally mindless) would feed live males to the Queen.  The fright trauma would cause the terrified victims into having one last climax (apparently a fairly common occurrence with condemned men I hear).  As the victim was consumed, the sputem was drawn off into a parallel track which eventually found its way to the reproductive organs.  [Yes this was somewhat based on the practice of some spiders and preying mantis to eat the males after mating.]  Then the Queen would just spend her days and nights cranking out fertilized eggs.  Accounts for why there are sooooo many of the Mock Races to be found.

When I first encountered the Broodmother, I was amazed how similar it was to something I envisioned 30+ years ago.  Made me wonder if one of the developers took part in the Dungeon Masters Tournament way back when.

[SusanStoHelit]

CptPatch wrote...

I think another key to the transformation is "into her mouth they spew".  Sounds like forced feeding, with probably certain tainted bodily fluids to expedite the process. 

I think so too - that's tainted bile they use to force the transformation. Or so I understand. However, unless we are provided with some evidence of parthenogenesis I stand by my belief that the women are raped by the various darkspawn. It just seems too likely, too logical, and to be the final touch of ghastliness and horror to the whole process.

I'm not saying other processes aren't possible, but I think my idea is far more likely. And that it accounts for the abilities of the darkspawn themselves.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 16 janvier 2010 - 10:00 .