452 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I don't see an Organic problem.

I don't see a Synthetic problem.

I see a Reaper Problem.

[shodiswe]

justafan wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

In any event, the chance of Geth being a part of the next game is unlikely at best. Let's see, most people take Destroy and even some of who didn't, killed them at Rannoch. They wouldn't be a part of a game set during first contact or an earlier event like Rachni Wars.

There seems to be a small majority that favors the destroy endings if were to take EDI 44% survival as the Destroy or Refuse ending.

That would give Destroy and Refuse 56% which isn't that mcuh of a majority. Tbh it looks pretty bad for the Quarians aswell if you look at the statistics. 37% decided to outright kill off the Quarians at Rannoch.

But whatever the case might be I think both species will be aroudn oen way or another. We have learned from the past that seemingly imporant choices are waved away in the next installment. It will likely become a small warasset differential or something in the end.

Ya, my biggest fear is that the Krogan, Geth and Quarians, the three species I find the most interesting, will be incapable of having a large part in any sequel thanks to ME3 putting them to near extinction levels.

But I would take some of those statistics with a grain of salt.  Liara after all only has a 54% survival rate, and the only way this could happen is if 46% of all ME players brought her on the beam run with an abysmal War assett score. Something I find highly unlikely.

Or maybe there are actualy a lot more Refusers out there than Destroyers!

That aside, I can agree it would be unfortunate if Bioware forcefully removed those species from the mass effect universe or gave them minimal Cameos saying, yeah, there are a few of us left... We're kind of holding on to a thread here but were still here... Btw.. our people are now very poor and I can't get a job with the locals, care to spare a few credits?
Then they would make a carboncoppy of those lines for each of the toned down species. Krogan, Geth, Quarians, filling out the background as beggars.

Modifié par shodiswe, 24 avril 2013 - 10:17 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

"The rocking robot hivemind of the geth earned more favor than the quarians when players chose to save one race over the another from total annihilation during the Rannoch mission. 37 percent of players preferred to save the lampheads as opposed to 27 percent for the bemasked nomads, but the more favorable outcome—saving both—followed right behind at 36 percent."

http://www.pcgamer.c...-3-infographic/

I don't agree that the Geth are really a Hivemind, neither does Tali, but the Statistics speaks for themselves. The Geth are the victims and therefor favrites, after that Peace commes up on the second Place and then last Place, Quarians. Why else would people choose the Geth, or maybe it's just that Gerrel makes people hate the Quarrians. I really don't like or trust that guy.

Also note how EDI outscores Tali as the most popular Squadmate  

Um.... you do realize that this same survey had most of said players cure the Genophage with Wreve present? Meaning that most didn't play ME1, or even ME2? So that statistic is mostly noobs to the story, blindly metagaming the paragon button.  And since the peace option has as much as the geth option. that means 63% chose quarians and 73% chose geth. And take away the metagamers, and the score isn't as diffinitive as you claim.

Also, I remind you that 80% of that survey picked destroy, which kills EDI and the geth. Just think about that for a sec.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 24 avril 2013 - 07:53 .

[Argolas]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

"The rocking robot hivemind of the geth earned more favor than the quarians when players chose to save one race over the another from total annihilation during the Rannoch mission. 37 percent of players preferred to save the lampheads as opposed to 27 percent for the bemasked nomads, but the more favorable outcome—saving both—followed right behind at 36 percent."

http://www.pcgamer.c...-3-infographic/

I don't agree that the Geth are really a Hivemind, neither does Tali, but the Statistics speaks for themselves. The Geth are the victims and therefor favrites, after that Peace commes up on the second Place and then last Place, Quarians. Why else would people choose the Geth, or maybe it's just that Gerrel makes people hate the Quarrians. I really don't like or trust that guy.

Also note how EDI outscores Tali as the most popular Squadmate  

Um.... you do realize that this same survey had most of said players cure the Genophage with Wreve present? Meaning that most didn't play ME1, or even ME2? So that statistic is mostly noobs to the story, blindly metagaming the paragon button.  And since the peace option has as much as the geth option. that means 63% chose quarians and 73% chose geth. And take away the metagamers, and the score isn't as diffinitive as you claim.

Also, I remind you that 80% of that survey picked destroy, which kills EDI and the geth. Just think about that for a sec.

So true. There are more mindless paragons out there than we can imagine. I guess most people don't even read the options, just click the upper one every time.

[silverexile17s]

Argolas wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

"The rocking robot hivemind of the geth earned more favor than the quarians when players chose to save one race over the another from total annihilation during the Rannoch mission. 37 percent of players preferred to save the lampheads as opposed to 27 percent for the bemasked nomads, but the more favorable outcome—saving both—followed right behind at 36 percent."

http://www.pcgamer.c...-3-infographic/

I don't agree that the Geth are really a Hivemind, neither does Tali, but the Statistics speaks for themselves. The Geth are the victims and therefor favrites, after that Peace commes up on the second Place and then last Place, Quarians. Why else would people choose the Geth, or maybe it's just that Gerrel makes people hate the Quarrians. I really don't like or trust that guy.

Also note how EDI outscores Tali as the most popular Squadmate  

Um.... you do realize that this same survey had most of said players cure the Genophage with Wreve present? Meaning that most didn't play ME1, or even ME2? So that statistic is mostly noobs to the story, blindly metagaming the paragon button.  And since the peace option has as much as the geth option. that means 63% chose quarians and 73% chose geth. And take away the metagamers, and the score isn't as diffinitive as you claim.

Also, I remind you that 80% of that survey picked destroy, which kills EDI and the geth. Just think about that for a sec.

So true. There are more mindless paragons out there than we can imagine. I guess most people don't even read the options, just click the upper one every time.

As @DenyonSlayer aptly put it, everyone just assumes that if it's upper right, it's always right. Not the case. One of the most prominate examples in the game is Rana Thanoptis, who was indoctrinated in ME1. Sparing her results in her eventually suicide bombing an asari government meeting, killing several military officals.
This isn't Star Wars with the infalible morals. Honestly, I hate the color-coded diolouge system BioWare mostly uses. I like having diolouge in which I actually have to think what's the best option, and if it's right or wrong, diffinitively or otherwise, and I can actually debate on the consiquences, instead of having the game do it all for me. Like they did in Dragon Age: Origins. Should have kept it that way for Dragon Age 2.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

seem to get what double standard means, since you use it constantly. You take "act of desperation" and make it acceptible to geth, but damnation to any organic races that try it. THAT is the definition of a double standard. I say judge them by their own laws, NOT as humans. That's benign antromorphisim, to quote Legion. Judgeing the quarians by their own laws, and teh geth by their own laws. YOU are judging both by human laws, with an act you condemn one race for being perfectly acceptible. I am looking at them with their own laws. YOU are the one using double-standards with benign antromorphism.

LOL. What? 2 billion dead? Mass slaughter and genocide of innocents? Proven in the Books, the Codex, and from Legion himself, who says the public record is basically the accurate story. THAT is the solid proof that the geth did exactally that - took a machine gun and mowed down the entire block to get one offender.
And alternitives was either sticking to self-defense, to which people would have sympathised with them, OR, target military personell ONLY. Sorry, but it's not rocket science.

The turians were the ones the Council put in charge of the war effort, THEY were the ones that got the final say - the Council was staying out of the war's consiquences. The Council was just glad the fighting was over. And AGAIN, the krogan was on the Citadel's doorstep. They were on Meane - Palaven's moon, just two or so relays away from the salarians and the Citadel. The krogan were encrouching on Thessia as well. There literally WAS no choice, as stated in the Codex - it was either the genophage, or EVERYONE ELSE. And again, those were doubts. There WASN'T an alternitive, but they got cold feet. There was no choice left.

The geth were absent from that list too, I remind you. Jumping on shadows, are we?
I figured that after the hundreds of pages where I detailed the quarians acting out of depseration and panic would already give an accurate idea of how I didn't agree with their panicked, rushed decision, but that, being a matter of survival vs death, I completely understood and accepted it. Something YOU seem to forget. So please, stop jumping at shadows and acting so condesending. You don't need any more headcannon clouding your view then you already have, and you certinly don't need to put yourself any higher on your non-existant pedalstool.

If you are judging people by different laws, it is a double standard.  You have one standard for humans based on their laws and another standard for Quarians based on their laws.  That is two standards which by definition is a double standard.  I am saying I judge them all under a single Adult Standard.  I repeat single.

No that is not proof they went block to block.  They used chemcial weapons Silver.  Chemical weapons likely killed most of the Quarians not machines guns going block to block.  Kind of like how the biological weapon called the Genophage kills billions of Krogan babies.  Perhaps the Turians should have stuck to killing military personnel but I am sure you will give me some excuse that those Krogan babies were miliitary even before they were born, lol.

The Geth were absent from the list because I specifically asked you about ORGANIC crimes.  The Geth are not synthetic so that is why you did not include them.  You are so pro Quarians you don't even remember the question.  I asked you about organics and despite this being about the Geth, you magically couldn't find a single thing negative about the Quarians.  I find that telling.  And now your defense is but I did not say anything about the Geth when that is no defense at all since I specifically asked you about the organics, lol.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

seem to get what double standard means, since you use it constantly. You take "act of desperation" and make it acceptible to geth, but damnation to any organic races that try it. THAT is the definition of a double standard. I say judge them by their own laws, NOT as humans. That's benign antromorphisim, to quote Legion. Judgeing the quarians by their own laws, and teh geth by their own laws. YOU are judging both by human laws, with an act you condemn one race for being perfectly acceptible. I am looking at them with their own laws. YOU are the one using double-standards with benign antromorphism.

LOL. What? 2 billion dead? Mass slaughter and genocide of innocents? Proven in the Books, the Codex, and from Legion himself, who says the public record is basically the accurate story. THAT is the solid proof that the geth did exactally that - took a machine gun and mowed down the entire block to get one offender.
And alternitives was either sticking to self-defense, to which people would have sympathised with them, OR, target military personell ONLY. Sorry, but it's not rocket science.

The turians were the ones the Council put in charge of the war effort, THEY were the ones that got the final say - the Council was staying out of the war's consiquences. The Council was just glad the fighting was over. And AGAIN, the krogan was on the Citadel's doorstep. They were on Meane - Palaven's moon, just two or so relays away from the salarians and the Citadel. The krogan were encrouching on Thessia as well. There literally WAS no choice, as stated in the Codex - it was either the genophage, or EVERYONE ELSE. And again, those were doubts. There WASN'T an alternitive, but they got cold feet. There was no choice left.

The geth were absent from that list too, I remind you. Jumping on shadows, are we?
I figured that after the hundreds of pages where I detailed the quarians acting out of depseration and panic would already give an accurate idea of how I didn't agree with their panicked, rushed decision, but that, being a matter of survival vs death, I completely understood and accepted it. Something YOU seem to forget. So please, stop jumping at shadows and acting so condesending. You don't need any more headcannon clouding your view then you already have, and you certinly don't need to put yourself any higher on your non-existant pedalstool.

If you are judging people by different laws, it is a double standard.  You have one standard for humans based on their laws and another standard for Quarians based on their laws.  That is two standards which by definition is a double standard.  I am saying I judge them all under a single Adult Standard.  I repeat single.

No that is not proof they went block to block.  They used chemcial weapons Silver.  Chemical weapons likely killed most of the Quarians not machines guns going block to block.  Kind of like how the biological weapon called the Genophage kills billions of Krogan babies.  Perhaps the Turians should have stuck to killing military personnel but I am sure you will give me some excuse that those Krogan babies were miliitary even before they were born, lol.

The Geth were absent from the list because I specifically asked you about ORGANIC crimes.  The Geth are not synthetic so that is why you did not include them.  You are so pro Quarians you don't even remember the question.  I asked you about organics and despite this being about the Geth, you magically couldn't find a single thing negative about the Quarians.  I find that telling.  And now your defense is but I did not say anything about the Geth when that is no defense at all since I specifically asked you about the organics, lol.

No, it's NOT. Judgeing people by their own individual, culturally spicific laws is NOT double standards. Judging both culturally different people by a single set of laws that you BEND for one spicific side - THAT'S a double standard. Something YOU repeatedly use. I judge the geth and quarians by their laws, which factor into my own judgements on their actions. Two standards for TWO DIFFERENT LAWS is NOT double standard. Two standards for a  SINGLE law (your definition of desperate actions) IS a double standard. So AGAIN, you use a double standard.

And they didn't NEED to. What exactally made them use such lethal weapons right off the bat? That's the SAME CONCEPT as mowing down a block to kill one person. The geth HAD alternitives, and ignored them. They just defaulted to WMDs, again, right off the bat.
And AGAIN, completely and utterly incorrect, since I AGAIN remind you that since the nervous system DOESN'T FORM, the child is NEVER ALIVE. In terms YOU would understand, it's like taking a synthetic, and building the body without installing the brain. NEVER ALIVE. It prevents new lives, but doesn't TAKE them, according to Mordin himself. And since he worked on the thing, forgive me for taking his opinion over yours.
And AGAIN, turians are militristic and kill out of POLICY. The geth don't HAVE that cultural basis. They don't HAVE 15,000 years of warfare and hiararchy-based life consisting of cast-autocracy and tier-based citizenship dictating your culture. So forgive me for pointing out that your entire comparison has more holes in it then swiss cheese. (LOL SEE what happens when you DON'T take cultural differences into account?)

And I RESPONDED with ORGANIC races, so what the hell's your problem? You are so damn desperate to undermine every single word that you are grasping at straws. 160+ pages of talking with me and you STILL fail to understand anything that doesn't gospelize the geth. I said that the quarians panicked and attacked Rannoch out of said panic and desperation, and that I didn't agree with the Choice to attack, or that they ignored Koris and Tali's beliefs, but that I understood the desperate "survival vs death" circumstance and accepted it.
I understand and accept the reasonoing, but NEVER said I agreed on it being the "right" thing to do.  Only that it was the ONLY thing left for them to do at that point, due to failings on BOTH sides to breed trust. YOU are the one that is so pro-geth and biased that you fail to even realize when the other person DID EXACTALLY WHAT YOU ASKED THEM TO.  And you STILL try to complain even when you GOT what you asked for? The entire reason i left out the quarians the first time was because I thought we Talked that all out. YOU were the one that brought the quarians into this, NOT me. I admitted they had faults BEFORE, and didn't think you'd FORGET so easily. Won't make the msitake of assuming you READ anything posted against you ever again, LoL. I find THAT to be quite telling about your prejudice, bias, and double-standards.

Now honestly, I'm sick of you never refuting the point with anything but headcannon or double-standards. Find me ONE THING that justifies the geth's use of chemical weapons, or why they needed such harsh measures against the quarians as their plan A, or their brutal retaliation on Rannoch one year after the initial rebellion, or just walk away.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 avril 2013 - 01:05 .

[remydat]

Silver,

You either have one standard or you have double or more standards. One is single. two or more is double or more. In certain countries, it is ok to stone women to death for dumb sh*t. I reject that idea completely. Don't give a f**k what their cutlure says. I judge them by a single standard.

Why are Krogan females wondering in the wilderness to be killed by Thresher Maws Silver? Your idea that they are not alive is meaningless. Females are killing themselves because of this. And this is where your logic contradicts yourself. One one hand when it suits you, you want to judge things by various cultures but now that Mordin a Salarian said something that the females killing themselves would likely disagree with suddenly you want to judge Krogan babies being killed by Salarian standards and to female standards. When life begins is not a matter of science. If it was, we wouldn't have pro life and pro choicers.

And no the Geth don't have 15,000 years of warfare. They were born and the Quarians tried to eradicate them COMPLETELY. The Geth responded in kind. That is what the Quarians taught them. They taught them when you have an enemy, you try and destroy them COMPLETELY.  Their culture was a war of extinction.  They were born and immediately had to fight for their very existence because the Quarians made them do so.  The Quarains attacked domestic units, argricultural units ie all Geth no matter if they were military or domestic untis.  The distinction between civilian and military does not exist because the Quarians never made such a distinction.  Legion was an agricultural unit ie civilian that picked up a sniper rifle to defend himself and the other domestic units ie civilains.  The Geth were just better students than their teachers when it came to killing.  And because they were networked, they were able to teach their civilians ie domestic, mining and argricultural units how to fight faster than organics can. 

And If you had answered the first time I thought we talked it all out, I would say fair enough. Instead, you went with but Geth even though the topic was organics not the Geth. Seemed a bit of a Freudian slip and I said so.

Modifié par remydat, 25 avril 2013 - 01:38 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

You either have one standard or you have double or more standards. One is single. two or more is double or more. In certain countries, it is ok to stone women to death for dumb sh*t. I reject that idea completely. Don't give a f**k what their cutlure says. I judge them by a single standard.

Why are Krogan females wondering in the wilderness to be killed by Thresher Maws Silver? Your idea that they are not alive is meaningless. Females are killing themselves because of this. And this is where your logic contradicts yourself. One one hand when it suits you, you want to judge things by various cultures but now that Mordin a Salarian said something that the females killing themselves would likely disagree with suddenly you want to judge Krogan babies being killed by Salarian standards and to female standards. When life begins is not a matter of science. If it was, we wouldn't have pro life and pro choicers.

And no the Geth don't have 15,000 years of warfare. They were born and the Quarians tried to eradicate them COMPLETELY. The Geth responded in kind. That is what the Quarians taught them. They taught them when you have an enemy, you try and destroy them COMPLETELY.  Their culture was a war of extinction.  They were born and immediately had to fight for their very existence because the Quarians made them do so.  The Quarains attacked domestic units, argricultural units ie all Geth no matter if they were military or domestic untis.  The distinction between civilian and military does not exist because the Quarians never made such a distinction.  Legion was an agricultural unit ie civilian that picked up a sniper rifle to defend himself and the other domestic units ie civilains.  The Geth were just better students than their teachers when it came to killing.  And because they were networked, they were able to teach their civilians ie domestic, mining and argricultural units how to fight faster than organics can. 

And If you had answered the first time I thought we talked it all out, I would say fair enough. Instead, you went with but Geth even though the topic was organics not the Geth. Seemed a bit of a Freudian slip and I said so.

No, you DON'T. You were the one that said acting in desperation to preserve themselves and their people is acceptible to the geth, but not the quarians.
AGAIN, you do not comprehend, nor show any inclination to try. AGAIN, it is NOT a double standard when two different cultures and laws are involved. A standard for each side, based on each sides individual laws. NOT human laws. YOU are judging them by ONE set of laws that ISN'T indigionus to them, and making one action in that strict set of laws (acting out of desperation) acceptible to the geth, but not the quarians. THAT is a double standard. NOT what I am doing; I am using their own values and laws. NOT a single set of (to them) alien laws with a one-sided policy.
And if you reject that idea of treatment -TOO BAD. It's their law. As an outsider, you can retain your private, or potentally public opinion to disagree, but you have no right whatsoever to tell them right from wrong. It's their culture. They way they grew up and the way they were taught. YES, it's cruel, but it's their way of life and you can't do s**t about it.  You have to judge them by their own principles and laws, and accept and understand those laws, regardless of whether or not you personally agree with them, or it becomes bengin antromorphizim, which is biased and flawed, according to Legion himself on the Heretic Station. Your own geth advocate the same exact thing I just said. Think about that.

Because they can't create life. They can't create living beings. None of their children were EVER ALIVE from the moment of conception because the nervous system never developed. It's basic science that if it has no brain activity, and no sentiance, and no nervous system, it isn't a living being. And again, YOU were the one that was advocatoing the importance of the definition, not me.  And ONCE AGAIN, you fail to comprehend. Or perhaps you are just ignoring it completely.
I said you had an incorrect notion about the CHILDREN. The females are, again, a seperate matter. Could you try to stay on a set topic for more then one page?
Mordin took all that into account when he modified the virus. And for years afterword, he made rutine trips to Tuchanka to see the results, and he deamed them necessary because those females deaths? That's vs the millions - billions even - of deaths that a resurgant krogan empire would have brought. Again, the krogan vs everything else. The turians made a ethicly debatible choice that did save more people then it killed in the long run. Once again, Garrus quote " ten billion over here die so that twenty billion over there can live." That's what it came down to. Right choice or not, it was the ONLY call avalible to make.
And AGAIN, I point you to the 300 years worth of darwinism-based science, and the many years of evolutinary and biological study that disprves that. If you are talkin gabout synthetics, SAME THING. Evolution and adaptation is ONCE AGAIN, sicence-based. So IDK what the hell you thought you were proving there.

To save THEIR OWN future from Council retaliation, or, as the Codex advocates, the potental that the geth might uprise and rebell anyway. They panicked and acted to preserve those they thought were still able to be saved. The geth weren't in that factor either way, as they would likely be destroyed by Council order anyway.
And AGAIN, wrong. The geth had access to information long before that. They displayed CLEAR differentation on the ideals of right and wrong, and of selflesness. YOU YOURSELF were trying to advocate that before. Are you now admitting that was wrong?
The geth already have proven they WERE wrong, and that they WERE intelligent enough to KNOW full well what they were doing was wrong. THEY DIDN'T CARE. The quarians weren't the ones using chemical weapons. The geth were. The quarians weren't the ones with a race in which every single member was a war-capable soldier. The geth were. And AGAIN, in the recordings that YOU YOURSELF tried to parrade as evidence of geth empathy, the geth show clear indication of knowing the difference. Legion also tells you on the SR-2 that the geth DIDN'T really understand why the quarians panicked. If they don't understand, HOW do you think they know to return the favor? The geth didn't understand the motivations. Didn't understand the war. It WASN'T eye for an eye. It was simple overzelous self-preservation born from their OWN panic. YOUR OWN WORDS are painting the geth as being irredimably war-like, the complete OPPOSATE of what you were claiming of them. And AGAIN, deas wrong, because the geth existed for at least a decade or two before the Morning War. So NO, NOT immeadeately.
Also, geth were built for Labor and War. According to THEIR OWN CODEX. EVERY SINGLE GETH was build with the ability to take up arms at a moments notice. Why else do you think the quarians were so panicked at them turning rouge? Because EVERY SINGLE ONE had the potental to become a killing machine. That's enough pressure even WITHOUT the threat of the Council breathing down their necks. So NO, there WAS no distinction, because not even the geth THEMSELVES give such distinctions. "Domestic" would be geth that were not advanced enough to think on their own. Non-sentiant geth, to be spicific. There literally was NO SUCH THING as "civilian" geth. They were either "intelligent" geth, or "animal" geth. All were able to defend themselves. The only difference was that some chose not to at first, and others were not sentiant and lacked the capability to do so - something NOT known by the quarians. Also, that image of the "agraculture" geth was a memory taken from a Reaper-enslaved geth in that server. Not from Legion. So no, that geth may have had a rifle like Legion's, but it was Not Legion in that image. It came from a different geth.
And again, wrong, because the geth showed they knew better. They just stopped caring about civilians.

And again, I was advocating that I did as you said, listed ONLY organics, and you took my absence of quarians in that list and jumped on it. I already explained why I didn't think you could forget my stated opinions on them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 avril 2013 - 08:16 .

[shodiswe]

Argolas wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

"The rocking robot hivemind of the geth earned more favor than the quarians when players chose to save one race over the another from total annihilation during the Rannoch mission. 37 percent of players preferred to save the lampheads as opposed to 27 percent for the bemasked nomads, but the more favorable outcome—saving both—followed right behind at 36 percent."

http://www.pcgamer.c...-3-infographic/

I don't agree that the Geth are really a Hivemind, neither does Tali, but the Statistics speaks for themselves. The Geth are the victims and therefor favrites, after that Peace commes up on the second Place and then last Place, Quarians. Why else would people choose the Geth, or maybe it's just that Gerrel makes people hate the Quarrians. I really don't like or trust that guy.

Also note how EDI outscores Tali as the most popular Squadmate  

Um.... you do realize that this same survey had most of said players cure the Genophage with Wreve present? Meaning that most didn't play ME1, or even ME2? So that statistic is mostly noobs to the story, blindly metagaming the paragon button.  And since the peace option has as much as the geth option. that means 63% chose quarians and 73% chose geth. And take away the metagamers, and the score isn't as diffinitive as you claim.

Also, I remind you that 80% of that survey picked destroy, which kills EDI and the geth. Just think about that for a sec.

So true. There are more mindless paragons out there than we can imagine. I guess most people don't even read the options, just click the upper one every time.

So, if as you say 63% choose the Qauarian and 73% chose the Geth those two Groups represent 136% of the whole, I'm not even going to ask how many % the whole constitures when you add the peopel who choose to make Peace.
You didn't even read the statistics or my quoted statistics. As Always you pick numbers out of nothign even when they are right in front of you.
But I've long since given up discussing simple logic with you since there is none to be had, and your way of making crazy inacutare claims and headcanons out of facts just keeps adding up.
*Simulating Silverexiles logic*
Secondly, those statistics it doesn't say that 80% picked destoy, in that case 80% picked Control and 70% picked Synthesis and 75% picked Refuse by using your logic    Let's just ignore the numbers given and invent something and ignore what we're being told and call it the truth. That adds up to a grand total of 305%!


Now, back to the rest of what you said about noobs...
Call them whatever you like, but they were still customers playing the same game and making up their own mind, 37% decided the Quarians were the agressor or that they couldn't be trusted or that they really didn't like Gerrel and took it out on the Quarians as a whole. All in all 37% let the Quarians die, 36% made Peace, and 27% either thought that organics were more divine and closer to God or they didn't trust the Geth(skynet references and all that as if that would be relevant) or they were Tali mancers, whatever their reasons. This does add up to 100%.

Almost 40% killed of your precious Quarians, and you call them noobs because they didn't pick your favrites? Fortunately an almost as large group of people made Peace so they might not be extinct from the next game.. possibly...

All in all when people had to choose the Majority killed of the Quarians when they coudln't make Peace or they killed them off even if Peace had been possible.
The Group that choose to kill of the Quarians instead of the Geth is 37% larger (37 compared to 27 = 37% more people, for simplification)

One could sum it up as "Destruction fo the Quarians, a good idea?" Because that's the choice that the majority of ME3 millions of players did, more people killed of the Quarians than the amount of people who made peace.

Also, again, the official data didn't give Destroy 80%. It would also be something that's hard for Bioware to make statistics on since a lot of people try all endings to see what the different endings looks like, I know I did.

But, I don't expect Silverexile to stay true to what was said ingame or what statistics infront of his Eyes are telling him. No matter how clear, obvious or set in stone somesomething is he will manage to Dream up something crazy that strokes his ego.

Or to Quote Silverexile17's favrite comment "WRONG!".

Sometimes I wonder if you are trolling us Silverexile, or if it's just indicative of who you are.

Modifié par shodiswe, 25 avril 2013 - 09:03 .

[Alien Number Six]

I'm going to make this short and sweet. The Geth are the enemy. They have to go. The fact that you fought them in ever game confirm it.

[Auld Wulf]

Alien Number Six wrote...

I'm going to make this short and sweet. The Geth are the enemy. They have to go. The fact that you fought them in ever game confirm it.

So that goes for the Japanese and Germans too, then? Even worse, the only Geth you fight are an extremist faction known as the Heretics.

Let us, once again, look at what heresy means for those who aren't familiar with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

"Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs."

The orthodox Geth have desired only two things all along: Peace and survival.

I'm guessing you didn't pay much attention when people were actually talking in the game.

"Shepard-Commander, we desire pe--"
"BORING, I want to go kill something!"

Yep. I can see that. :I

[Auld Wulf]

shodiswe wrote...

But I've long since given up discussing simple logic with you since there is none to be had [...]

You and me both. I can't take them seriously any more. Canon isn't canon, lore isn't lore, statistics aren't statistics. They kind of remind me of the Templars from Deus Ex -- they're super zealous and incredibly faithful to their religious beliefs with insane levels of zeal. Little things like facts don't get in the way of that. Why have facts when you can invent your own? A lot of the Geth hater nonsense reminds me of things like Creationism in regards to how much involves them pulling stuff out of their butt.

So, believe me, I relate and I sympathise. I just don't have any respect for their intellect any more. Not only that, but every time I've tried engaging them intellectually, they've attacked me rather than my arguments (so I've given up on trying to connect with them intellectually, since there's no intellectualism to connect with). Which, once again, is a very nasty tactic which also reminds me of religious zealots. It's easy to make a heathen, which is exactly what they're doing, it's harder to actually logically confront an argument and to use their intellect to explain their point of view.

What this results in is that most sensible people are okay with the Quarians and the Geth, and then you have the crazy zealotry of the Geth haters, whose fervour and hatred is unmatched. So where a Geth fan might be all 'I love the Quarians, we're coapecetic' a Geth hater will go on and on about how the Geth need to die/be destroyed for their holy cause. It's mildly terrifying, if I can be honest with you. I've seen so many conversations which have eventually gone like this:

"I like the Quarians and the Geth. I just admit that neither race is perf--"
"The Quarians are living perfection! Geth need to die!"
"No one's perfe--"
"LIVING PERFECTION!!!"
"Well, it seems these statistics would show that the majority don't agree with y--"
"I HAVE MY OWN STATISTICS!"
"These are just numbers scratched into a piece of toilet paper."
"COMPLETELY VALID."

No respect any more. None.

You present them with facts and they won't step back and admit they were wrong, no. They just get crazier and crazier, to levels of frothingly rabid. I'm sure they hate us Geth fans too because we don't hate. Like I've said before: I love the Quarians, I just find their fans to be deeply unpleasant people. The Quarian fans do more harm to their situation than good. Anyone reading this forum is going to be driven more to the Geth side, because Geth fans don't hate Quarians, and GEth fans are capable of realising that, hey, neither is perfect.

A Quarian fan can't come to terms with that, since Quarians are their religion/fetish/sexual fetish, so they can only see them as absolute perfection. The moment that Quarian fans realise that Quarians aren't absolute perfection (which even Zaal'Koris would tell you)  is the moment that this debate becomes pointless.

I've said it so many times before, I'll say it again:

This is a debate about prejudice (Geth haters) versus anti-prejudice (Geth fans).

Geth fans tend to very much live and let live. They're really cool people. Like you, shodiswe, and so many others on this forum. We'd like to see both the Quarians and the Geth stick around. But you can't argue with religious people. Trying to convince an insipid Quarian fan that the Quarians aren't perfect (GASP!) is like trying to convince a religious person that Creationism is utter nonsense.

So yeah. I love Geth, I love Quarians, I dislike insane, zealous, rabid Quarian fans.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 25 avril 2013 - 11:27 .

[Dunabar]

Alien Number Six wrote...

I'm going to make this short and sweet. The Geth are the enemy. They have to go. The fact that you fought them in ever game confirm it.

1+

I tend to hear "Oh people just side with the Quarians because of Tali" and all I can think of "Hmm people side with the Geth because of legion and- Oh right...Legion is the only Geth NOT shooting at us for all three games..." (Those primes excluded, but even then they didn't do anything to help during the Priority: Rannoch.)

Ah some of those Geth supporters just make every bullet I put into the Geth V.I totally worth it. Wait..I only got to shoot three times, I know that gun can fire more!

[Argolas]

I'll try to make it as simple as possible so even the last retards get it:

Geth = Friends that seek peace
Quarians = Friends that seek peace
Geth zealots (heretics) = Enemies that seek war
Quarian zealots (like Gerrel and Xen) Enemies that seek war

If you can make peace, you side with your friends, the peaceful Geth and Quarians. If you can't, you choose between Geth (friends) helping to defend themselves and Quarian zealots (enemies) trying to annihilate the Geth (friends).

If you choose the Quarians, you prove zealots like Xen and Gerrel right, making them effectively heroes and opening the path for them to shed even more blood in the future. Once they have the Geth, who is next?

If you choose the Geth (friends), you help your allies save their life and nothing more. The Quarians still have the chance to just pull out, but Gerrel (enemy) who only cares about his war fetish orders them to keep attacking. The Quarians obey, which is unfortunate, but what are the Geth supposed to do? Just sit around and let themselves get slaughtered, losing a bit of themselves with every single person lost?

So think hard. Destruction of the Geth is supposed to be a good idea?

Modifié par Argolas, 25 avril 2013 - 11:45 .

[Mangalores]

Indy_S wrote...

...

But the quarians are depicted as the sole aggressors, both in the Morning War and now during the Reaper War. The game goes too far in driving this point forward and most people don't have further context.

We dig a Reaper out of the Geth's main systems. To me that should elicit some more concern when lacking context than a bunch of aliens are being dumb.


I want to save both, but when taking the Reaper threat into account the Geth are the greater liability since they have sided with the Reapers several times now and want to keep Reaper tech. That could have been a rational decision by them, but doesn't put them in front of the Quarians in terms of potential alllies.

Well, well...

If you can make peace, you side with your friends, the peaceful Geth
and Quarians. If you can't, you choose between Geth (friends) helping to
defend themselves and Quarian zealots (enemies) trying to annihilate
the Geth (friends).

This is an intentionally misleading comparison. If the Geth were nice they could let the Quarians go from a position of strength no matter the attitude of Quarian warmongers. It does not follow to annihilate the Quarians.

Modifié par Mangalores, 25 avril 2013 - 12:01 .

[Indy_S]

Mangalores wrote...

We dig a Reaper out of the Geth's main systems. To me that should elicit some more concern when lacking context than a bunch of aliens are being dumb.

I want to save both, but when taking the Reaper threat into account the Geth are the greater liability since they have sided with the Reapers several times now and want to keep Reaper tech. That could have been a rational decision by them, but doesn't put them in front of the Quarians in terms of potential alllies.

True. I'm sure that rationale is one of several that sees the Geth fleet destroyed. For the record, though, I don't believe a new player to the game will be aware that the Geth have sided with the Reapers before.

[Argolas]

Mangalores wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

...

But the quarians are depicted as the sole aggressors, both in the Morning War and now during the Reaper War. The game goes too far in driving this point forward and most people don't have further context.

We dig a Reaper out of the Geth's main systems. To me that should elicit some more concern when lacking context than a bunch of aliens are being dumb.


I want to save both, but when taking the Reaper threat into account the Geth are the greater liability since they have sided with the Reapers several times now and want to keep Reaper tech. That could have been a rational decision by them, but doesn't put them in front of the Quarians in terms of potential alllies.

Well, well...

The Geth never sided with the reapers before. Only the heretics did. It's like your saying "the Alliance sided with the reapers" because of the "Project" in Arrival. Just like that Alliance team, the heretics are a rogue faction.

Mangalores wrote...

If you can make peace, you side with your friends, the peaceful Geth and Quarians. If you can't, you choose between Geth (friends) helping to defend themselves and Quarian zealots (enemies) trying to annihilate the Geth (friends).

This is an intentionally misleading comparison. If the Geth were nice they could let the Quarians go from a position of strength no matter the attitude of Quarian warmongers. It does not follow to annihilate the Quarians.

The Quarians could have pulled out. They did not. They were shooting at the Geth. What where they supposed to do?

Modifié par Argolas, 25 avril 2013 - 12:10 .

[Indy_S]

Auld Wulf wrote...
So, believe me, I relate and I sympathise. I just don't have any respect for their intellect any more.

No, I'm pretty sure you don't relate or sympathise. You much prefer to insult again and again. What you call unintelligent is really just disrespect. Nobody cares to have you attack them. Nobody cares to have you speak down to them. You are an arrogant, obnoxious, oblivious and self-righteous person on this forum. Maybe you're a nice guy when you're not on here; none of it comes through. So if you're going to talk about respect, be an example. I'm going to end this with advice a five-year-old can give you. Don't use insults and put-downs, it will do nothing in your favour.

Modifié par Indy_S, 26 avril 2013 - 12:00 .

[Mangalores]

Argolas wrote...
...

The Geth never sided with the reapers before. Only the heretics did. It's like your saying "the Alliance sided with the reapers" because of the "Project" in Arrival. Just like that Alliance team, the heretics are a rogue faction.

This is a false comparison again. At project arrival you have an indoctrinated alliance team (smallish in size) so they got subverted by force, with the heretics you have a significant faction of the Geth siding with the Reapers, capable to wage a conventional war against the Alliance and Citadel.
After that the main collective adopts the alliance of the heretics and sides with the Reapers. They can have absolutely valid reasons of self interests to do that but it puts them firmly in one camp.

The Quarians could have pulled out. They did not. They were shooting at the Geth. What where they supposed to do?

Not kill the Quarians but force them into surrender from a position of strength. The idea that the superior force needs to annihilate the inferior one without restraint is very one dimensional. Even amongst worst enemies in the worst wars such codes of conduct to offer final surrender particular against civilian targets held true for mankind and so should have been the way Shepard steers the Geth even when favoring them.

Modifié par Mangalores, 25 avril 2013 - 12:31 .

[Argolas]

Mangalores wrote...

This is a false comparison again. At project arrival you have an indoctrinated alliance team (smallish in size) so they got subverted by force, with the heretics you have a significant faction of the Geth siding with the Reapers, capable to wage a conventional war against the Alliance and Citadel.
After that the main collective adopts the alliance of the heretics and sides with the Reapers. They can have absolutely valid reasons of self interests to do that but it puts them firmly in one camp.

So whether or not you can blame innocents for the actions of a rogue faction is the size of said rogue faction? What?
Yes, the Geth accepted help. In desperation. The Quarians forced their hand. The Geth would never have done it if the Quarians hadn't launched their stupid invasion.

Mangalores wrote...

Not kill the Quarians but force them into surrender from a position of strength. The idea that the superior force needs to annihilate the inferior one without restraint is very one dimensional. Even amongst worst enemies in the worst wars such codes of conduct to offer final surrender particular against civilian targets held true for mankind and so should have been the way Shepard steers the Geth even when favoring them.

You can't force fleets to surrender. That is impossible. The Quarians did not stop firing.

Watch.

Quarian Lieutenant: Admiral, kinetics are down. Permission to order retreat!
Admiral Gerrel: Denied. All ships, full barrage!

And THAT is why the Quarians got destroyed. It's Gerrel's fault. Not the Geth's.

[Mangalores]

Argolas wrote...

So whether or not you can blame innocents for the actions of a rogue faction is the size of said rogue faction? What?

Of course. You have a small alliance group that gets indoctrinated aka forced to work for the Reapers. You get a large Geth faction that turns to the Reapers and the rest of the Geth turns to the Reapers under threat shows an affiliation towards the Reapers.
If you only had a small fringe group of outcasts who ever joined the Reapers you can't hold the rest responsible, if it's a major faction and the rest of all factions turn to that viewpoint it is. Finland turned to the Axis instead of the Allies to fight the Russians => the United Kingdom declared war against Finland although it liked Finland. Finland chose a faction in a world war. Without their very extraordinary care to keep separate off the rest of the Axis and purely lucking out that Soviet amphibious landings in core Finland were postponed they would have been treated like the rest of the Axis.
Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria signed up to the Axis also mainly for strategic reasons against the Soviet Union. They didn't get nice treatment by the Allies because their sole reason for doing so was the fear and present threat of Stalinist Russia.

Argolas wrote...

You can't force fleets to surrender. That is impossible. The Quarians did not stop firing.
...

Of course, you can. Broadcast a general declaration to stand down or be fired upon, only retaliate against military targets attacking or showing signs of aggression, target weapon systems and engines. Ignore ships in distress. Segregate and escort ships that surrender out of the combat zone. In essence restrain firepower and maintain a dominant position which the Geth supposedly have as they annihilate the entire Flotilla without losing much firepower.
Quarians would still lose men and ships but there is plainly no excuse for slaughter. Quarians show at no point an extremist zeal to fight to the last man. Just listen to the radio broadcasts of their ships.

This is not elusive at all. Our forefathers did it without radio signals and any advanced tech.

Similarily instead of wiping out the Geth you could demand them to withdraw from all armed platforms into their server clusters to be interned for the duration of the war with no access to weapon systems and military production facilities.

[Xilizhra]

Problem: there are no nonmilitary targets in the Migrant Fleet, ever since the liveships got outfitted with dreadnaught guns.

[shodiswe]

Argolas wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

This is a false comparison again. At project arrival you have an indoctrinated alliance team (smallish in size) so they got subverted by force, with the heretics you have a significant faction of the Geth siding with the Reapers, capable to wage a conventional war against the Alliance and Citadel.
After that the main collective adopts the alliance of the heretics and sides with the Reapers. They can have absolutely valid reasons of self interests to do that but it puts them firmly in one camp.

So whether or not you can blame innocents for the actions of a rogue faction is the size of said rogue faction? What?
Yes, the Geth accepted help. In desperation. The Quarians forced their hand. The Geth would never have done it if the Quarians hadn't launched their stupid invasion.

Mangalores wrote...

Not kill the Quarians but force them into surrender from a position of strength. The idea that the superior force needs to annihilate the inferior one without restraint is very one dimensional. Even amongst worst enemies in the worst wars such codes of conduct to offer final surrender particular against civilian targets held true for mankind and so should have been the way Shepard steers the Geth even when favoring them.

You can't force fleets to surrender. That is impossible. The Quarians did not stop firing.

Watch.

Quarian Lieutenant: Admiral, kinetics are down. Permission to order retreat!
Admiral Gerrel: Denied. All ships, full barrage!

And THAT is why the Quarians got destroyed. It's Gerrel's fault. Not the Geth's.

Gerrel is like a Grand Moff Tarkin of the Mass effect universe.

[Auld Wulf]

Yanno... at the end of the day, this is what I have to say about this thread:



That is all.

(Source.)

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 25 avril 2013 - 02:07 .