452 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Yanno... at the end of the day, this is what I have to say about this thread:



That is all.

(Source.)

I confess, it's a better possible fate than many.

[Mangalores]

Xilizhra wrote...

Problem: there are no nonmilitary targets in the Migrant Fleet, ever since the liveships got outfitted with dreadnaught guns.

Not really a problem. It's not unusual to downgrade targets based on the possibility of collateral damage or assign precision strikes in place of undiscriminate attack to neutralize these targets. We tend to not use cluster bombs against targets within civilian centres, we do use cluster bombs against troop concentrations out in the open (the very reason sensible enemies don't do that against NATO) or against airfields. Why? Because the application of force is measured based on circumstance and an intent to reduce collateral damage.

The issue is: It's not black and white.  And it's inconceivable that this battle would end in the total annihilation of the Quarians if the Geth were to simply allow their withdrawal or force their surrender. In both cases there could be casualties, in the later significant ones but a far cry from total obliberation.

Modifié par Mangalores, 25 avril 2013 - 03:42 .

[shodiswe]

Mangalores wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Problem: there are no nonmilitary targets in the Migrant Fleet, ever since the liveships got outfitted with dreadnaught guns.

Not really a problem. It's not unusual to downgrade targets based on the possibility of collateral damage or assign precision strikes in place of undiscriminate attack to neutralize these targets. We tend to not use cluster bombs against targets within civilian centres, we do use cluster bombs against troop concentrations out in the open (the very reason sensible enemies don't do that against NATO) or against airfields. Why? Because the application of force is measured based on circumstance and an intent to reduce collateral damage.

The issue is: It's not black and white.  And it's inconceivable that this battle would end in the total annihilation of the Quarians if the Geth were to simply allow their withdrawal or force their surrender. In both cases there could be casualties, in the later significant ones but a far cry from total obliberation.

We are told some quarians escape, likely lower priority targets that poses less of a risk/threat.

Modifié par shodiswe, 25 avril 2013 - 04:52 .

[remydat]

Silver

Two standards is two standards Silver. And no the differnece is the Geth were actually beinf shot at both during the MW and in ME3. I dont have to speculate what the Council or Quariand would do, they were ACTUALLY killing or trying to kill them. The Quarians acted before anyone was trying to kill them. That is the difference. I have no problem with any group of any race killing someone whrn they are currently under attack and currently being killed. The Quarians were not being killed when they made their decision. They decided to act preemptively.

And if there was no genophage, would these babies be born? If the answer is yes I don't care about your logic. If you leaving something alone results in it being born then you don't getnto decide for the mother whether it is alive or not. The krogan killing themselves have told you what they think. Who elected you their overlord where you get to decide for them?

The Quarians choose to kill geth civilians. A domestic, argricultural or mining unit is a civilian. The Qurians didn't care. Just because those civilians could learn to be soldiers quickly because they were networked AI doesn't change the fact they were civilians when they were attacked. The reason the geth don't have civilians anymore is because the Quarians forced domestic units to learn how to kill. That is there fault not the Geth. And chemical weapons don't work on a synthetic so why would thw Quarians use them. The Quarians attacked civilians. The Geth respond by attacking everyone including civilians. The Geth were just better at teaching their civilians how to kill. Tough luck. Next time don't go killing domestic units.

[remydat]

Mangalores wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Problem: there are no nonmilitary targets in the Migrant Fleet, ever since the liveships got outfitted with dreadnaught guns.

Not really a problem. It's not unusual to downgrade targets based on the possibility of collateral damage or assign precision strikes in place of undiscriminate attack to neutralize these targets. We tend to not use cluster bombs against targets within civilian centres, we do use cluster bombs against troop concentrations out in the open (the very reason sensible enemies don't do that against NATO) or against airfields. Why? Because the application of force is measured based on circumstance and an intent to reduce collateral damage.

The issue is: It's not black and white.  And it's inconceivable that this battle would end in the total annihilation of the Quarians if the Geth were to simply allow their withdrawal or force their surrender. In both cases there could be casualties, in the later significant ones but a far cry from total obliberation.

A liveship firing at the geth is not a civilian center.  the circumstance is the quarians turned them into dreadnaughts as shep notes when he says doing so violates the treaty of farixen.  whether they did or not is irrelevant.  the fact is you lose the right to claim they are civilianships 

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Argolas wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

"The rocking robot hivemind of the geth earned more favor than the quarians when players chose to save one race over the another from total annihilation during the Rannoch mission. 37 percent of players preferred to save the lampheads as opposed to 27 percent for the bemasked nomads, but the more favorable outcome—saving both—followed right behind at 36 percent."

http://www.pcgamer.c...-3-infographic/

I don't agree that the Geth are really a Hivemind, neither does Tali, but the Statistics speaks for themselves. The Geth are the victims and therefor favrites, after that Peace commes up on the second Place and then last Place, Quarians. Why else would people choose the Geth, or maybe it's just that Gerrel makes people hate the Quarrians. I really don't like or trust that guy.

Also note how EDI outscores Tali as the most popular Squadmate  

Um.... you do realize that this same survey had most of said players cure the Genophage with Wreve present? Meaning that most didn't play ME1, or even ME2? So that statistic is mostly noobs to the story, blindly metagaming the paragon button.  And since the peace option has as much as the geth option. that means 63% chose quarians and 73% chose geth. And take away the metagamers, and the score isn't as diffinitive as you claim.

Also, I remind you that 80% of that survey picked destroy, which kills EDI and the geth. Just think about that for a sec.

So true. There are more mindless paragons out there than we can imagine. I guess most people don't even read the options, just click the upper one every time.

So, if as you say 63% choose the Qauarian and 73% chose the Geth those two Groups represent 136% of the whole, I'm not even going to ask how many % the whole constitures when you add the peopel who choose to make Peace.
You didn't even read the statistics or my quoted statistics. As Always you pick numbers out of nothign even when they are right in front of you.
But I've long since given up discussing simple logic with you since there is none to be had, and your way of making crazy inacutare claims and headcanons out of facts just keeps adding up.
*Simulating Silverexiles logic*
Secondly, those statistics it doesn't say that 80% picked destoy, in that case 80% picked Control and 70% picked Synthesis and 75% picked Refuse by using your logic    Let's just ignore the numbers given and invent something and ignore what we're being told and call it the truth. That adds up to a grand total of 305%!


Now, back to the rest of what you said about noobs...
Call them whatever you like, but they were still customers playing the same game and making up their own mind, 37% decided the Quarians were the agressor or that they couldn't be trusted or that they really didn't like Gerrel and took it out on the Quarians as a whole. All in all 37% let the Quarians die, 36% made Peace, and 27% either thought that organics were more divine and closer to God or they didn't trust the Geth(skynet references and all that as if that would be relevant) or they were Tali mancers, whatever their reasons. This does add up to 100%.

Almost 40% killed of your precious Quarians, and you call them noobs because they didn't pick your favrites? Fortunately an almost as large group of people made Peace so they might not be extinct from the next game.. possibly...

All in all when people had to choose the Majority killed of the Quarians when they coudln't make Peace or they killed them off even if Peace had been possible.
The Group that choose to kill of the Quarians instead of the Geth is 37% larger (37 compared to 27 = 37% more people, for simplification)

One could sum it up as "Destruction fo the Quarians, a good idea?" Because that's the choice that the majority of ME3 millions of players did, more people killed of the Quarians than the amount of people who made peace.

Also, again, the official data didn't give Destroy 80%. It would also be something that's hard for Bioware to make statistics on since a lot of people try all endings to see what the different endings looks like, I know I did.

But, I don't expect Silverexile to stay true to what was said ingame or what statistics infront of his Eyes are telling him. No matter how clear, obvious or set in stone somesomething is he will manage to Dream up something crazy that strokes his ego.

Or to Quote Silverexile17's favrite comment "WRONG!".

Sometimes I wonder if you are trolling us Silverexile, or if it's just indicative of who you are.

Allow me to lay this out in PLAIN, so that even a synthetic worshipper like you can comprehend this. It means that most of that score is EVENLY SPLIT. 73% pick geth, and then ALSO pick the quarians.
"136%"  "305%" Really? You are REALLY that petty? That just means the SAME  people chose DIFFERENT things.  LOL! How the hell could you POSSIBLY misinterperit THAT??
In other words, most would pick different options on new playthroughs depending on what they did before, meaning that someone that saved the geth before might save the quarians the next time. By the standards, most that saved the geth would turn around and save the quarians as well.  SO that statistic of yours is limited, dated, and because of those things, completely irrelivent.
So, AGAIN, dead wrong. YOU are simply not comprehending plain facts - or maybe that's "just indicitive of who you are."  (you act smug and condesending to me, it's going to be thrown right back at you). Any poll is going to be dated based on the fact that it doesn't differentate from repeat playthroughs to show if people changed their minds of not, and the fact that most of that score consisted of noobs who NEVER played ME1.

Also, since most of those same people DESTROYED the geth in the ending, NO, it DOESN'T constitute that. The only reason the your "precious" geth got a high score was noobs metagaming the upper right button. When the majority DID have a choice that was stand-alone, guess what they did? - THEY DESTROYED THE GETH. So fat lot of good that poll of yours proved. If anything, it validated MY agruements more then yours.
So, sorry, but as I said before and ment it, you are AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. Simpley because you relied on a poll that can go out of date in days.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

I'm going to make this short and sweet. The Geth are the enemy. They have to go. The fact that you fought them in ever game confirm it.

So that goes for the Japanese and Germans too, then? Even worse, the only Geth you fight are an extremist faction known as the Heretics.

Let us, once again, look at what heresy means for those who aren't familiar with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

"Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs."

The orthodox Geth have desired only two things all along: Peace and survival.

I'm guessing you didn't pay much attention when people were actually talking in the game.

"Shepard-Commander, we desire pe--"
"BORING, I want to go kill something!"

Yep. I can see that. :I

NO ONE KNEW THAT THE HETETICS DIDN'T REPRESENT THE TRUE GETH.
The japanese, the germans, they all PUBLICLLY RENOUNCED their extrimest factions. The geth DIDIN'T.

You can't accuse the quarians of that when the Heretics entire existance was NOT public knwoledge until AFTER the Rannoch War.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 avril 2013 - 09:11 .

[remydat]

Legion renounces the heretics in ME2. Every member of Shep's crew including Tali knows this. At Tali's trial, Gherel's response to this is good maybe they can kill each other and leave us less Geth to kill. He doesn't care there is a split.

Any of the crew could have informed their people or like Shepard gone on TV and relayed that message and let everyone decide whether they believed Legion or not. Just like Shep does in ME3.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

But I've long since given up discussing simple logic with you since there is none to be had [...]

You and me both. I can't take them seriously any more. Canon isn't canon, lore isn't lore, statistics aren't statistics. They kind of remind me of the Templars from Deus Ex -- they're super zealous and incredibly faithful to their religious beliefs with insane levels of zeal. Little things like facts don't get in the way of that. Why have facts when you can invent your own? A lot of the Geth hater nonsense reminds me of things like Creationism in regards to how much involves them pulling stuff out of their butt.

So, believe me, I relate and I sympathise. I just don't have any respect for their intellect any more. Not only that, but every time I've tried engaging them intellectually, they've attacked me rather than my arguments (so I've given up on trying to connect with them intellectually, since there's no intellectualism to connect with). Which, once again, is a very nasty tactic which also reminds me of religious zealots. It's easy to make a heathen, which is exactly what they're doing, it's harder to actually logically confront an argument and to use their intellect to explain their point of view.

What this results in is that most sensible people are okay with the Quarians and the Geth, and then you have the crazy zealotry of the Geth haters, whose fervour and hatred is unmatched. So where a Geth fan might be all 'I love the Quarians, we're coapecetic' a Geth hater will go on and on about how the Geth need to die/be destroyed for their holy cause. It's mildly terrifying, if I can be honest with you. I've seen so many conversations which have eventually gone like this:

"I like the Quarians and the Geth. I just admit that neither race is perf--"
"The Quarians are living perfection! Geth need to die!"
"No one's perfe--"
"LIVING PERFECTION!!!"
"Well, it seems these statistics would show that the majority don't agree with y--"
"I HAVE MY OWN STATISTICS!"
"These are just numbers scratched into a piece of toilet paper."
"COMPLETELY VALID."

No respect any more. None.

You present them with facts and they won't step back and admit they were wrong, no. They just get crazier and crazier, to levels of frothingly rabid. I'm sure they hate us Geth fans too because we don't hate. Like I've said before: I love the Quarians, I just find their fans to be deeply unpleasant people. The Quarian fans do more harm to their situation than good. Anyone reading this forum is going to be driven more to the Geth side, because Geth fans don't hate Quarians, and GEth fans are capable of realising that, hey, neither is perfect.

A Quarian fan can't come to terms with that, since Quarians are their religion/fetish/sexual fetish, so they can only see them as absolute perfection. The moment that Quarian fans realise that Quarians aren't absolute perfection (which even Zaal'Koris would tell you)  is the moment that this debate becomes pointless.

I've said it so many times before, I'll say it again:

This is a debate about prejudice (Geth haters) versus anti-prejudice (Geth fans).

Geth fans tend to very much live and let live. They're really cool people. Like you, shodiswe, and so many others on this forum. We'd like to see both the Quarians and the Geth stick around. But you can't argue with religious people. Trying to convince an insipid Quarian fan that the Quarians aren't perfect (GASP!) is like trying to convince a religious person that Creationism is utter nonsense.

So yeah. I love Geth, I love Quarians, I dislike insane, zealous, rabid Quarian fans.

Allow me to point out the MANY FLAWS in that statement.

YOU are the one that ignored Cannon (the Heretics not being public knowledge) , statistics (the quarians having absolutly zero choice but to invade Rannoch, lest they die in space)[/i], AND lore (the geth butchered 99% of the quarian race). Not me. YOU are the templar in this debate, as EVERYONE ELSE claims of you, @Shodiwse, and @remydat. You three are the "religious extrimests'. And have been disproved MULTIPLE TIMES. Yet you still gospelize the geth to the Nth degree. You refuse to admit that ANYTHING was the fault of the geth, and make up headcannon asspulls like "Legion was a diplomat," (disproven by Legion himself, who says he was a deep recon unit), and "the geth wanted peace all along (disproven by the fact that the geth prevented Legion from returning Tali's messages, and recalling him to the consensis). That discription is of YOURSELF, not me.
Also, the condesending attitude you use makes everyone reflexively hostile to you, because you can't say one sentance without trying to undercut the other, making them respond in kind. You would be the hostile zelots in this debate, not us.

YOU are the one that attackes people personally, and try to bring Godwin's law into this constantly. Like the geth, you brought a negitve reputation on yourself. And now nobody takes ANYTHING you say as logical. SEE the similarities between the hole you dug for yourself, and the one the geth dug for themself? And for someone that just ranted and raved about religious zelots, you have no right whatsoever to gospelize yourself as someone that doesn't make personal attackes. You act like that, and people are going to treat you the same way. You don't have anyone but yourself and your reflexively calling everyone fools and mororns for not sharing your spicific brand of logic to blame for their opinion of you.

And AGAIN, you show confussion, bcaucse, as I stated before, I AM PRO-SYNTHETIC. I support the geth's rights. But I hate people that place higher value on one brand of life over another. I see them as equal, and YOU and @Shodiwse and @remydat are the ones that value synthetic life over organic life, using benign antromorphisim and double standards to impose that the quarians deserve death more then the geth do, when NITHER side is more deserving. BOTH contributed to the war that happened, yet you act like the geth are innocent cherubs. That's NOT right. You have yet to admit that the geth's isolationist tendencies created the reputation that made everyone think they were a irredimably hostile race. That and the fact they killed unarmed diplomats. You can't call the geth completely innocent and say there wasn't any blood on their hands, because that's false. You can't say the Heretics were extremists and organic haters, because even THAT'S false (Legion spicifically tells you the Heretics followed Sovergien because they thought getting the Reaper's technology was the best and most efficant way to evolve their race. NOT anything to do with orgnaic hate. That's just what everybody ELSE believes).

So again, Dead Wrong as always. The CORRECT way to describe this is:

Me: The quarians and geth are the same. Nither is more deserving of death then-
Templar Alud: NO. Orgnaics have sinned! Geth are perfection!
Me: No form of life is per-
Templar Alud: Synthetic Aryan Perfection! The statistics-
Me: Consist of people that never played the first game. Some didn't even play the second. And some of these are repeat players, meaning that some CHANGED their minds the sceond time around. How is that an accurate-
[i]Templar Alud: MY STATISTICS ARE PERFECTION!
Me: These numbers are misinterperted, and come from biased sources, AND gross antropomorphisim. Using three recordings of PRE-WAR times to judge two entire species? There is nothing to support this ideal.
Templar Alud: COMPLETELY VALID!

THAT'S the CORRECT way this debate has played out. YOU were the one claiming Aryan Perfection of the GETH, condoning the mass slaughter they caused in the Morning War without batting an eyelash. That it's all right to butcher millions upon millions of innocent men, woman, and children out of overzelous self-preservation? THAT is an Aryan Perfection complex. The quarians were FORCED into a hard choice and panicked with the measures they took. Not the best way to handle it, but it's STILL essier to understand then how the geth chose mass slaughter right off the bat. Which seems more like an Aryan Perfection complex to you?

Once again, YOU are the one that has destroyed all respect and credibility in your arguement.

Your entire statement about religious zelots IS hate and trolloing. You are hardly even refuting the point. Half your post is a rant about zelots. YOU are the one frothing at the mouth and calling us zelots because you basically have run out of rebutals. You literally can't counter without attacking the other personally, and forcing them to retaliate in kind. You are the one that has caused more harm to the geth defense then good. You AND @shodiwse.
Once again, tell me ONE THING you EVER claimed was spicifcially the geth's own fault.

You are right about the division, but you are WRONG about the prejudice vs non-prejudice line-up - that you are on the other side. The prejudice side. Especally since there are facts presant that you blatently ignore when it comes to the geth being the gospels you see them as.

I NEVER said the quarians were perfect. I just reacted to YOUR claims that they sined more then the geth did, and deserve to die over them. NITHER does. Stop trying to akin the geth to your Aryan Perfection complex and admit that BOTH sides caused their downfall.

So again, the only rabid zelot is again, you and @shodiwse.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 avril 2013 - 10:41 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Legion renounces the heretics in ME2. Every member of Shep's crew including Tali knows this. At Tali's trial, Gherel's response to this is good maybe they can kill each other and leave us less Geth to kill. He doesn't care there is a split.

Any of the crew could have informed their people or like Shepard gone on TV and relayed that message and let everyone decide whether they believed Legion or not. Just like Shep does in ME3.

NO, they COULDN'T. The Alliance  forced Shepard into non-disclosure. Anything and everything Shepard and Co saw or heard was classified, since everything Shepard said was suspect due to Cerberus ties and the Alpha Relay incident. Anything leaked could potentally be a political s**tstorm. And none of Shepard's crew could say anything, as that would implisitly implicate them in Shepard's dealings, and thus the Alliance would have the legal athourity to LOCK THEM ALL UP.
All the squadmates would be interrogated, with Jack, Kasumi, and Thane likely going to prison for being criminals. Garrus too, likely for his rouge sojurn to Omega. Zaeed too, since I doubt his line of work in the Terminus is legal in Council/Alliance space. Miranda and Jacob would be thrown in the slammer with them for being Cerberus. Legion would be spending those six months in an Alliance Lab being tested on while being interrogated as part of the galactic enemy #1.  Samara's jsuticar code forbids her from being captured and interrogated, so she would have likely resisted arrest and been subsiquently killed by the Alliance, or become a wanted fugutive if she survived. Grunt would likely be in the same boat with the arrest attempt. Mordin would be taken in for his information on the Collectors. Tali would be too, because of her "sensitive" knowledge about the chance the Heretic split is accurate.
Hence, the above are the reasons why Shepard made sure all the squad-mates were not present when the Commander surrendered.
And after all, Imagine the bad rep the Council and Alliance would face if it got out that the geth might NOT be the genocidal machines everyone believes them to be. Imagine all the bad press!<_<
Blame the political BS of the Council and Alliance for that. Therefore, with NO public record of this EVER existing, Gerrel has zero reason to think Legion is being any form of truthful. No one ever knows anything about the geth not being irredimably hostile until After Shepard's interview with Diana Allers following the Rannoch War.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 avril 2013 - 10:04 .

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

Problem: there are no nonmilitary targets in the Migrant Fleet, ever since the liveships got outfitted with dreadnaught guns.

If the geth can use fighters to block individual incoming shots with perfect accuracy, they can disable the liveship weapons without having to destroy them. They didn't. They chose to finish the slaughter.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver

Two standards is two standards Silver. And no the differnece is the Geth were actually beinf shot at both during the MW and in ME3. I dont have to speculate what the Council or Quariand would do, they were ACTUALLY killing or trying to kill them. The Quarians acted before anyone was trying to kill them. That is the difference. I have no problem with any group of any race killing someone whrn they are currently under attack and currently being killed. The Quarians were not being killed when they made their decision. They decided to act preemptively.

And if there was no genophage, would these babies be born? If the answer is yes I don't care about your logic. If you leaving something alone results in it being born then you don't getnto decide for the mother whether it is alive or not. The krogan killing themselves have told you what they think. Who elected you their overlord where you get to decide for them?

The Quarians choose to kill geth civilians. A domestic, argricultural or mining unit is a civilian. The Qurians didn't care. Just because those civilians could learn to be soldiers quickly because they were networked AI doesn't change the fact they were civilians when they were attacked. The reason the geth don't have civilians anymore is because the Quarians forced domestic units to learn how to kill. That is there fault not the Geth. And chemical weapons don't work on a synthetic so why would thw Quarians use them. The Quarians attacked civilians. The Geth respond by attacking everyone including civilians. The Geth were just better at teaching their civilians how to kill. Tough luck. Next time don't go killing domestic units.

Two standards for two different cultural laws is NOT a double standard. Two different prerequsites for THE SAME law IS a double standard. Two standards for two different laws is two laws. A double standard is two variations of the SAME law, with one side being favored over the other. And again, there were many, many quarians that were NOT shooting. The quarian civilians were an independant variable in that war. The geth wrote them off as irrlevent. And AGAIN, the quarians were between a rock and a hard place - fear of the geth uprising and rebelling if they became sapiant, and fear of the Council coming down on them if they found out the geth were nearing sapiance.
And again, it was either that, or risk their entire race. You yourself said that you would do whatever it took to keep your family safe. The quarians did that exact same thing. Kill before they could be potentally killed, either by the geth (not knowing this wasn't what the geth wanted), or crushed under the Council's scanctions. I do admit that one can say the quarians acted rashly, and didn't wait for all the facts, but I remind you that many races have done the same, like when the salairans uplifted the krogan, or the Council when they ignored the salarian's concerns on trying to "domesticate" the krogan.

Who ellected YOU? The Codex itself tells you the krogan's own fatalisim is what's dwindling their numbers, not the genophage.
And if those krogan HAD been born alive, then there would be billions of turian, asari, salarian, hanar, elcor, volus, vorcha, and drell babies taking their place. Humans and raloi too eventually. Sorry dude, but cause and effect - and the death toll would have been much higher, as every single krogan would be replaced with at least ten of every other species.
"Ten billion over here die so that tewnty billion over there can live." - Garrus Vakarian.
Simple as that. It may not be morally sound, but as unplesant as it is, it's the lesser evil compared to the galactic genocide and enslavement of every other race. In other words, it comes down to this: Which would you choose? A krogan being able to birth a living child, or your entire family? That's the choice. You have to make it. And 10 to one, I'm betting you would choose your siblings, parents, and reletives over the krogan mother. Now multiply that statistic to every living person in the galaxy, and THAT'S your standard. I'm not disputing the genophage is morally sound. I know it's not. But what you don't get is that the krogan gave the turians no choice but to use it. It was either that or lose Palaven, Thessia, and everything else. It's just like Shepard destroying the Alpha Relay to stop the Reaper invasion. An atrocoius act, but it had to be done. No other choice. So unless you want to call Shepard a ruthless sadist as well, you can't belittle the turians for deploying the genophage in am hour of utter desperation when no other option was possible.

And AGAIN, "tools of labor and war." They ALL were designed to be capable of using weapons, as PROVEN by the "agraculture unit" picking up that sniper rifle. Domestic geth does NOT mean "civilian." It translates as "too stupid to know what's happening around it." No more intelligence then a varren. But when networked, they instantly become killing machines. And EVERY geth had this capability, so ergo, ALL of them were battle-capable. ALL were capable of truning into killing machines in an instant. Like the rachni, there ARE no such things as "civilians" among them. Just "non-combatants," or "drones," as in not actively fighting at that moment. The geth, like the rachni, can pick up arms and be lethal killing mahcines in an instant. The quarians AREN'T like that. Starting to see the difference? And again, being "tools of labor and War", the geth knew how to fight LONG before the war.
And again, my point was that the quarians didn't use WMDs in their fight. The geth DID.
So AGAIN, there ARE no civilians among the geth. They THEMSELVES don't have distinctions like that. You are either geth, or not. There IS no "civilian" distinction among them, as said by LEGION HIMSELF. Once again, you failed to look at the geth's own culture and see the contrasts between it and quarian culture.
So sorry, but WRONG. The geth knew how to fight and kill long before that, and there ARE no such things as geth civilians as told by Legion himself.

[Auld Wulf]

Xilizhra wrote...

I confess, it's a better possible fate than many.

Yep.

I'm sure that my Juggernaut would be more than happy to let people ride around on his shoulders. I could see kids having a lot of fun with that.

And really, I think threads like this are silly. Ultimately, I think the vast majority of Geth and Quarians are going to get on well, best buddies and all that. There's always going to be a tiny minority of extremists, but when isn't there? Despite how I feel about the Quarian fanclub, the only solution for me is Geth & Quarian peace. It's the only way to go. I couldn't bear to destroy the Quarians. It'd mean stuff like that picture could never happen. And it should happen!

I'm an idealist, really. I don't know if I could even be anything else, or if I'd want to be anything else. I deal in dreams. I think that picture said more than I ever could, in a way. If you remove the Geth or the Quarians, then that moment of perfection could never have happened. No Geth to ride on, or no Quarian riders. Really, they're two sides of the same cooin. They both have their black sheep, but ultimately I like both peoples. It's why I was glad that I could even bring Tali'Zorah around in ME3, because it's the way things deserve to be.

There's been enough in-fighting. Now it's time for little Quarian children to use incredibly patient and kindly Juggernauts as climbing apparatuses. Apparatusi? Aparatuses.

I'm really irked by why people feel the need to destroy either of them.

Geth or Quarian, they be bros.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

NO, they COULDN'T. The Alliance  forced Shepard into non-disclosure. Anything and everything Shepard and Co saw or heard was classified, since everything Shepard said was suspect due to Cerberus ties and the Alpha Relay incident. Anything leaked could potentally be a political s**tstorm. And none of Shepard's crew could say anything, as that would implisitly implicate them in Shepard's dealings, and thus the Alliance would have the legal athourity to LOCK THEM ALL UP.

All the squadmates would be interrogated, with Jack, Kasumi, and Thane likely going to prison for being criminals. Garrus too, likely for his rouge sojurn to Omega. Zaeed too, since I doubt his line of work in the Terminus is legal in Council/Alliance space. Miranda and Jacob would be thrown in the slammer with them for being Cerberus. Legion would be spending those six months in an Alliance Lab being tested on while being interrogated as part of the galactic enemy #1.  Samara's jsuticar code forbids her from being captured and interrogated, so she would have likely resisted arrest and been subsiquently killed by the Alliance, or become a wanted fugutive if she survived. Grunt would likely be in the same boat with the arrest attempt. Mordin would be taken in for his information on the Collectors. Tali would be too, because of her "sensitive" knowledge about the chance the Heretic split is accurate.
Hence, the above are the reasons why Shepard made sure all the squad-mates were not present when the Commander surrendered.
And after all, Imagine the bad rep the Council and Alliance would face if it got out that the geth might NOT be the genocidal machines everyone believes them to be. Imagine all the bad press!<_<
Blame the political BS of the Council and Alliance for that. Therefore, with NO public record of this EVER existing, Gerrel has zero reason to think Legion is being any form of truthful. No one ever knows anything about the geth not being irredimably hostile until After Shepard's interview with Diana Allers following the Rannoch War.

Where is the vid for this non disclosure agreement?  When did this alleged non-disclosure occur because in my game, Shep told the Quarians about the Heretics?  Also can you provide all the vids that show that everyone else on his crew was forced to not talk as well?  Did know the Alliance could force Thane, Kasumi, Grunt, Garrus, Samara, Jacob, Miranda, Zaed and Mording from talking?  This is hilarious that you think the Alliance was going to round up all his crew.  A f**king spectre ie Jordan Baum can't track down Kasumi but the Alliance would because Silver says so, lol.

Gherel doesn't care if Shep is telling him the truth.  He says he doesn't care in the game.  His response to Shep telling him about the Heretics is good let them kill each other so that there is less of them to kill.  Gherel never claimes he doesn't trust what Shep says.  He doesn't care what Shep says.

[remydat]

Silver,

One plus one is two. If the Quarians can shoot at domestic geth who are civilians then the Geth can kill Quarian civilians. Either both are ok or both are wrong. It is the same act.

The domestic untis were civilians. By the Quarians own admission they did not understand the power of them being networked so no I don't think they taught all the Geth to be weapons. Farmer Legion was designed to plant seeds not shoot a gun. Some a**hole Quarian tried to kill him and the other farmers and since he was a networked AI, he simply networked with a Geth designed to shoot learned how to shoot and then picked up the sniper rifle and went to town on those pricks. So no, Farmer Legion was a civilian. Since the Quarians tried to kill them all civilian or not, all the Geth simply networked with each other, learned how to fight pretty much simultaneously and all those civilians become soldiers not by choices but because those a**holes tried to kill them.

And no the Quarians did not do the exact same thing because the Geth were not trying to kill them. You have no proof prior to the MW, the Geth wanted to kill them so it is not the same thing as me protecting my family against someone trying to actually kill me. Those Krogan babies are not trying to kill my family. They are not. They are not even born yet.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I confess, it's a better possible fate than many.

Yep.

I'm sure that my Juggernaut would be more than happy to let people ride around on his shoulders. I could see kids having a lot of fun with that.

And really, I think threads like this are silly. Ultimately, I think the vast majority of Geth and Quarians are going to get on well, best buddies and all that. There's always going to be a tiny minority of extremists, but when isn't there? Despite how I feel about the Quarian fanclub, the only solution for me is Geth & Quarian peace. It's the only way to go. I couldn't bear to destroy the Quarians. It'd mean stuff like that picture could never happen. And it should happen!

I'm an idealist, really. I don't know if I could even be anything else, or if I'd want to be anything else. I deal in dreams. I think that picture said more than I ever could, in a way. If you remove the Geth or the Quarians, then that moment of perfection could never have happened. No Geth to ride on, or no Quarian riders. Really, they're two sides of the same cooin. They both have their black sheep, but ultimately I like both peoples. It's why I was glad that I could even bring Tali'Zorah around in ME3, because it's the way things deserve to be.

There's been enough in-fighting. Now it's time for little Quarian children to use incredibly patient and kindly Juggernauts as climbing apparatuses. Apparatusi? Aparatuses.

I'm really irked by why people feel the need to destroy either of them.

Geth or Quarian, they be bros.

Of course it's not going to be like that instantly. Tali herself tells you up front that there are still "too many wounds on either side right now" for them to call each-other friends. She says that the quarians aren't really sure what to refer to the geth as. Even if they are getting along, they, like the krogan and turians, have a long way to go before they accept each-other like the way you are advocating. Not that it's impossible mind you - Im all for them coexisting and such. But it certenly isn't going to be all hugs and kisses instantly. You need time to build trust and comradere. It's not going to be right off the bat.

And my problem was that you acted like the geth hadn't sinned and the quarians had. I never aruged that one deserved to die. I just argued the fact that the quarians going to war had nothing to do with hate. It was brought on by panic from the Reaper invasion.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 avril 2013 - 03:52 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

NO, they COULDN'T. The Alliance  forced Shepard into non-disclosure. Anything and everything Shepard and Co saw or heard was classified, since everything Shepard said was suspect due to Cerberus ties and the Alpha Relay incident. Anything leaked could potentally be a political s**tstorm. And none of Shepard's crew could say anything, as that would implisitly implicate them in Shepard's dealings, and thus the Alliance would have the legal athourity to LOCK THEM ALL UP.

All the squadmates would be interrogated, with Jack, Kasumi, and Thane likely going to prison for being criminals. Garrus too, likely for his rouge sojurn to Omega. Zaeed too, since I doubt his line of work in the Terminus is legal in Council/Alliance space. Miranda and Jacob would be thrown in the slammer with them for being Cerberus. Legion would be spending those six months in an Alliance Lab being tested on while being interrogated as part of the galactic enemy #1.  Samara's jsuticar code forbids her from being captured and interrogated, so she would have likely resisted arrest and been subsiquently killed by the Alliance, or become a wanted fugutive if she survived. Grunt would likely be in the same boat with the arrest attempt. Mordin would be taken in for his information on the Collectors. Tali would be too, because of her "sensitive" knowledge about the chance the Heretic split is accurate.
Hence, the above are the reasons why Shepard made sure all the squad-mates were not present when the Commander surrendered.
And after all, Imagine the bad rep the Council and Alliance would face if it got out that the geth might NOT be the genocidal machines everyone believes them to be. Imagine all the bad press!<_<
Blame the political BS of the Council and Alliance for that. Therefore, with NO public record of this EVER existing, Gerrel has zero reason to think Legion is being any form of truthful. No one ever knows anything about the geth not being irredimably hostile until After Shepard's interview with Diana Allers following the Rannoch War.

Where is the vid for this non disclosure agreement?  When did this alleged non-disclosure occur because in my game, Shep told the Quarians about the Heretics?  Also can you provide all the vids that show that everyone else on his crew was forced to not talk as well?  Did know the Alliance could force Thane, Kasumi, Grunt, Garrus, Samara, Jacob, Miranda, Zaed and Mording from talking?  This is hilarious that you think the Alliance was going to round up all his crew.  A f**king spectre ie Jordan Baum can't track down Kasumi but the Alliance would because Silver says so, lol.

Gherel doesn't care if Shep is telling him the truth.  He says he doesn't care in the game.  His response to Shep telling him about the Heretics is good let them kill each other so that there is less of them to kill.  Gherel never claimes he doesn't trust what Shep says.  He doesn't care what Shep says.

The Alliance had Shepard locked up, and from what the squadmates tell you (spicifically, Thane in the recordings he left in ME3: Citadel. He spicifically says that, despite the protests of the crew, Shepard made the right call on having them disband to avoid "spending six months in an Alliance interrogation cell."), the entire reason the team split up was so that the Alliance wouldn't arrest and interrogate them all. If not for Shepard's orders, Kasumi, Garrus, and everyone else would have stayed and fought for the Commander. However, because of the sensitive situation with the batarians wanting a war for the Bahak System, Shepard took the fall and the blame for everything to keep anyone else from getting locked up.
Also, according to Kaiden and Ashley, the Alliance had inetlligence reports from Shepard's interrogation that detailed everything the team knew about the Heretics, and that the Alliance classified it. Diana Allers tells you that no one has heard Anything of intrest regarding the geth since they attacked the Citadel. Meaning the Alliance Admirals KNEW about the Heretic split, but classified it. I guess them getting charred in the beginning of the game at Shepard's hearing was karma, huh?
The quarians would have likely put more effort into negotiations had that information been public knowledge - had they KNOWN that the geth WEREN'T the irredimably hostile race that everyone believed them to be. Blame this on the three Alliance Admiralty Board pricks that the Reaper toasted in the start of the game. Their political BS is the reason no one knew there was such a thing as Geth Heretics.

And AGAIN, as I have said numorus times, the proof that the True Geth are any more friendly to organics then the Heretics is.....?
That's right: Nothing. As far as Gerrel knows, the only difference between the two factions is that one is actively moving through the galaxy, and one isn't. As far as he knows, they could very well likely have the same views on Organics. After all, the Ture Geth didn't stop the Citadel attack, did they? As far as Gerrel knows, the True Geth allowed the Heretic rampage, so that right there again proves absolutly nothing about either faction of geth being friendly.

And notice, I haven't said one condesending thing here, yet you continue to?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

One plus one is two. If the Quarians can shoot at domestic geth who are civilians then the Geth can kill Quarian civilians. Either both are ok or both are wrong. It is the same act.

The domestic untis were civilians. By the Quarians own admission they did not understand the power of them being networked so no I don't think they taught all the Geth to be weapons. Farmer Legion was designed to plant seeds not shoot a gun. Some a**hole Quarian tried to kill him and the other farmers and since he was a networked AI, he simply networked with a Geth designed to shoot learned how to shoot and then picked up the sniper rifle and went to town on those pricks. So no, Farmer Legion was a civilian. Since the Quarians tried to kill them all civilian or not, all the Geth simply networked with each other, learned how to fight pretty much simultaneously and all those civilians become soldiers not by choices but because those a**holes tried to kill them.

And no the Quarians did not do the exact same thing because the Geth were not trying to kill them. You have no proof prior to the MW, the Geth wanted to kill them so it is not the same thing as me protecting my family against someone trying to actually kill me. Those Krogan babies are not trying to kill my family. They are not. They are not even born yet.

AGAIN, wrong. Two differnet laws is not a double standard. That;s judging them by their own values. Judging them by YOUR PERSONAL values, and making one thing acceptible to one side but not the other - THAT is a double standard. A double standard is TWO ways someone applies ONE law. NOT two seperate laws.

No, they weren't. Every single geth was designed to be able to take up amrs at a moments notice. They were ment to be a cheep laobr force that could double as expendible military defenders. The geth were pre-programed with the knowledge of how to fight. They basically are all terminator units waiting to activate. Hence why the quarian's panicked and tried to take them out. They were supposed to take commands from the quarians. They ALL know how to shoot and fight. That's why when the quarians learned that the geth could be developing the power to move, think, act, and potentally kill independantly, instead of the simple automated robot butlers they were intended to be, they panicked.
Imagine you have a robot butler, that can become a killer soldier at a moments notice. Then it suddenly went independant. Would you want that running around? Let alone millions of them? The quarians basically s**t themselves at the thought of that, and then pissed themselves too when they realized what the Council would do to them if they found out what the quarians may accidently created.  They ALL had the capability and the know-how. All they were missing was the intelligence to make their own choices. When it appeared that they were starting to GET that intelligence, it panicked the quarians. So in closing, NO, none of the geth were "civilians."
And AGAIN, that geth was NOT Legion. Every image was extracted from that server. That memory came from one of the geth trapped inside the server, NOT Legion. I'm pretty sure I pointed this out already that the "agriculture unit" wasn't Legion.

AGAIN, unthinkable slaughter in the Morning War - Council Spectre report.
99% of the quarian race exterminated - Mass Effect: Revelations.
It is largely the same - Legion.
The geth WERE doing nothing BUT trying to kill them when the Morning War was in full swing. Just ask the massicared mining colonests of Adas, who posed NO THREAT to the geth, but were wiped out anyway instead of being imprisoned or ignored.
Also, the krogan are warlike by nature. They threw their people's lives away by the millions as cannon fodder. Not using the genophage would have doomed every other race. In 1,000 years, the ONLY krogan that shows change is Wrex. The ONLY male krogan to show change in 1,000 years is an Exile that hasn't been on Tuchanka for just as long. So YES, it IS the same exact choice. Your family or the krogan mother. CHOOSE.

[remydat]

Silver,

I played Arrival long after I found out about the Heretics. I told the Quarians about the Heretics on Tali's loyalty mission long before Arrival. I told Gherel directly and he didn't care. I or anyone in my crew could have told the world about the Heretics long before Arrival. Further once the team disbanded, they could have told the world about the Heretics then. Obviously if they were all just sitting on an Alliance ship, they can be found. They were not. They left the ship and went about their business.

And whether they want to believe it or not is up to them. I never said they had to. I simply said the Quarians were told and the world could have been told by any team member long before Arrival and while they were disbanded.

As for your laws business.  So it is ok to stone a women to death as long as the laws of a country say it is cool?  Yes or no?

Farmier Legion was planting seeds.  He was not a military unit.  The game says Farmer Legion was an agricultural unit and the Geth with him were domestic units.  If you attack Farmer Chuck Norris you might get your a** handed to you because Farmer Chuck Norris knows how to fight.  Guess what though, Farmer Chuck Norris is still a Farmer and not in the military and if you try to exterminate him, you are attacking a Civilian despite him being able to and ultimately kicking your a**.  

So show me a scene where Farmer Legion attacked prior to being shot at?  Otherwise, he was a Farmer trying to plant seeds and was attacked.  He can network with other units, figured out how to shoot and killed the a**holes.  When you try and kill Farmers and they go and kill your Farmers then you are to blame.  Don't f with a Farmer when he is just trying to plant seeds.  It sucks for all those Quarian civlians that got killed but they got killed because their a**hole military tried to kill a bunch of farmers, miners, domestic units, and other Geth units currently serving them.   Pick smarter leaders next time.

Modifié par remydat, 26 avril 2013 - 04:37 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

I played Arrival long after I found out about the Heretics. I told the Quarians about the Heretics on Tali's loyalty mission long before Arrival. I told Gherel directly and he didn't care. I or anyone in my crew could have told the world about the Heretics long before Arrival. Further once the team disbanded, they could have told the world about the Heretics then. Obviously if they were all just sitting on an Alliance ship, they can be found. They were not. They left the ship and went about their business.

And whether they want to believe it or not is up to them. I never said they had to. I simply said the Quarians were told and the world could have been told by any team member long before Arrival and while they were disbanded.

As for your laws business.  So it is ok to stone a women to death as long as the laws of a country say it is cool?  Yes or no?

Farmier Legion was planting seeds.  He was not a military unit.  The game says Farmer Legion was an agricultural unit and the Geth with him were domestic units.  If you attack Farmer Chuck Norris you might get your a** handed to you because Farmer Chuck Norris knows how to fight.  Guess what though, Farmer Chuck Norris is still a Farmer and not in the military and if you try to exterminate him, you are attacking a Civilian despite him being able to and ultimately kicking your a**.  

So show me a scene where Farmer Legion attacked prior to being shot at?  Otherwise, he was a Farmer trying to plant seeds and was attacked.  He can network with other units, figured out how to shoot and killed the a**holes.  When you try and kill Farmers and they go and kill your Farmers then you are to blame.  Don't f with a Farmer when he is just trying to plant seeds.  It sucks for all those Quarian civlians that got killed but they got killed because their a**hole military tried to kill a bunch of farmers, miners, domestic units, and other Geth units currently serving them.   Pick smarter leaders next time.

AGAIN, the proof that the True Geth are any more or less friendly then the Heretics is......???????
ONCE AGAIN, you dodged the question. I will ask AGAIN. What proof was there that the True Geth were any more organic friendly then the Heretics? Either answer that, or admit that Gerrel had zero reason to think the True Geth weren't hostile. Knowing the split exists, and knowing that one side isn't irredimably hostile, are two different things.
And ONCE AGAIN, had that happened, no one would have BELIEVED it because again, THERE IS NO PROOF WHAT-SO-EVER. And anything that could be put forward can't be accepted because of Shepard's Cerberus Ties. So the Alliance swept everything under the rug.You aren't even trying to think this through - no one would have believed them, and staying to agrue the case just insures time in Alliance interrogation.
Hell, even when Garrus DID come forth and tell everything, NO ONE but
his father believed him. The Primarch dismissed everything Garrus said,
and only comitted a token force to him after constant pestering from
Garrus's father. That took Six Months to acomplish. By then, far too late to matter. Garrus' failure to convince the turians to take any form of major preventative action or preperation against the Reapers is proof of how little going public would have mattered - it would be brushed aside like ALWAYS. I mean, you saved the galaxy and all the governments STILL just scoffed at what they had to say before. What makes you POSSIBLY believe they would have listened after you and co joined Cerberus and blew up a relay, nearly starting a war with the batarians? What could possibly make you think they would listen to you now, as a branded lunitic and terrorist, when they didn't even listen to you when you were the hero of the galaxy? Are you even thinking on this before you type? The most you can do is save the rest of the crew from the s**tstorm and hope they can do something - ANYTHING - behind the scenes. Or at the very least, prep themselves for what's to come.

Yes, if their laws say so, that's THEIR laws. THEIR justice system. It's NOT your culture, you you literally have NO right to fault them. You can disagree with it personally, but that's YOUR opinion. If that's their law, it's THEIR law. Not yours. Not your country, and not your people, and not your culture. THEIRS. So yes, if their laws say so, I have no right whatsoever to chastize them on it. It's their culture, and THEIR right to carry out justice and punsihment as their laws dictate. Turian law states that prisoners and criminals must serve hard labor, or life sentances in prison. Armed rebellions are put down by going door-to-door and slaughtering anyone that gets in the way.  Krogan death penalty for crime is commonplace. Their cultures developed completely different from ours, so their laws, and the cultural circumstances that resulted in their creation, are alien to us. Therefore, we don't have any right to judge their laws by forcibly imposing our own on them. Our culture and laws are NOT the devine law, so please don't act so self-righteous. Turians don't like our laws and moral system, yet they keep civil because they don't have any right to tell us about law when our culture is differnet then theirs. You act like human law and conduct is the diffinitive law in the galaxy, and that anyone that DARES not follow that cultural mandate is a sinner. Many cultures have completely different standars, morals, and laws then ours. We can disagree on them, but do you have any right to fault their laws on order and punishment? It's benign antromorphism, according to Legion himself.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiaedZF72gg

Shepard: "The geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply our morality to them."
Legion:  "That is logical."
Tali: "You agree with that?"
Legion: "No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism. The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. WIth synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

By Legion's own words, your views of the geth and krogan are racist and benign anthropomorphism.

You literally have ZERO comprehension on cultural differences. You think you can forcibly judge others by one cultural standard - yours. And what if someone from said countries, or other, forced judgement on YOU using their laws? What would you say? Disagreeing with the morals of another culture isn't the problem. Trying to impose your own moral standards as the all-knowing standard for all life everywhere? That's the problem. When dealing with another culture, you HAVE to abide by their standards when judging them, and TAKE those factors into account. Applying your personal morality to these culturally-different situations is, according to Legion, the Nth degree of racisim.

And ONCE AGAIN, that geth WAS NOT LEGION. Those images came from the geth IN THE SERVER. NOT Legion. The server. This will be the third time I have corrected you on that.
There WAS no distinction between geth. There is NO SUCH THING as civilian geth. Legion TELLS YOU THIS HIMESELF. If Legion PERSONALLY tells you that there is no such thing as civilian geth, why to you keep spouting this BS? It's even in the damn Codex on Geth Culture that the geth don't HAVE standards like "civilian" because, being a networked race, the ONLY difference between geth is perspective. Meaning that they are ALL combat-capable. NO SUCH THING AS CIVILIANS AMONG THEM. Just like the Rachni.
They were ALL built as "Tools of labor and WAR." This isn't rocket science - if even Legion himself tells you that the geth have no civilians, then the geth HAVE NO CIVILIANS.
ALL geth know how to shoot and fight. The problem was they were never intelligent enough to make the concious choice to fight. They were made to fight when ordered to. "Domestic" geth are simply geth that haven't made the connection that they can order themsleves to fight. They ALL are combat-capable and battle ready. ALL can pick up arms and fight. And they are on the verge of realizing they have the power to do it themselves without being ordered to. This is stated by the Codex, and by Legion himself. There ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS GETH CIVILIANS. They are basically like the rachni. They are either active combatants, or non-active combatents. There is NO CIVILIAN MIDDLEMAN WHATSOEVER in their culture.
I restate - EVERY SINGLE GETH WAS BUILT TO INSTANTLY BECOME A COMBAT UNIT AT A MOMENTS NOTICE.  NO SUCH THINGS AS CIVILIANS FOR THEM.
And they were becoming self-aware. The quarians panicked at the thought that their tools would rise up against them, or that the Council would punish them for not being more careful. If a tool comes alive, and puts your entire family at risk, which are you going to pick - the welfare of the tool, or your siblings and parents?

[shodiswe]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Why are you guys using the ME3 survey data as evidence? All it does is prove the majority of ME3 players were imbeciles (herpa-derp, lets cure the genophage with loveable pacifist Wreav in charge!) who, by and large, got the worst ending and presumably blew up the entire galaxy.

So people have to be part of a special intelectual elite that you have aproved to make their choices count?
While I tend to agree that a lot of people possibly the majority keeps making incredibly stupid choices.
My first playthrough resulted in what I would call the optimal outcome given game parameters. No metagaming was nessesary.
Maybe the people who did pick horrible choices thought they did the right thing?

This thread and several others are indicative of that notion.

If you look at our history and people in todays society then you wll know it's the truth.

Modifié par shodiswe, 26 avril 2013 - 07:41 .

[Mangalores]

shodiswe wrote...


We are told some quarians escape, likely lower priority targets that poses less of a risk/threat.

Which in reverse means wholesale slaughter of the rest.

remydat wrote...
A liveship firing at the geth is not a civilian center.  the
circumstance is the quarians turned them into dreadnaughts as shep notes
when he says doing so violates the treaty of farixen.  whether they did
or not is irrelevant.  the fact is you lose the right to claim they are
civilianships

I'm happy our generals don't have your thinking. By current UN law even in defense there is a demand of proportional response aka even if you are entirely in the right you are only allowed to take defensive action so far to ensure your own safety without inflicting undue casualties among the aggressor, particularly the civilian population.

It is very one dimensional thinking to consider the application of force solely an on and off switch. If we take the Codex entry the Geth outflank the Quarians and threaten the entire civilian fleet from the rear. We are not talking about some insignificant battle, we are talking about the fact that refusing to surrender would mean the complete annihilation of a race with few survivors.

There is no reason to side with the Geth and allow them to annihilate the Quarians. When in doubt bypass Gerrel and make a general declaration that every Quarian ship standing down will not be attacked and cease to engage targets in distress or breaking off the engagement. If that offer is on the table even after some losses Quarians will most likely start to surrender when their position deterioates.

Instead of treating non dreadnaughts as dreadnaughts because they have big guns precision strikes would be the first choice against military installations hiding within a civilian target aka try to disable the guns without killing the ship.

We know firsthand from the Quarians that they
aren't that bloodthirsty or extremist to rather die than surrender since
there are factions opposed to the war.

[Auld Wulf]

In honesty, does anyone really think their involvement in this makes them look good? Perhaps it's just a good idea to stop feeding the trolls at this point. A minority here just have an unfathomable Geth hate fetish, which isn't shared by anyone else, whilst the rest of us are perfectly okay with both the Quarians and the Geth. The rest of us are able to observe that both sides have had extremist outliers who've caused no end of problems.

At this point, I think it's just trolling and counter-trolling, because we're retreading old ground, refuting arguments which have been made a hundred-thousand times before. Geth haters are parroty trolls, after all. Well, it's up to you guys. I really do think it's just feeding the trolls at this point, though.

[Indy_S]

Auld Wulf wrote...

A minority here just have an unfathomable Geth hate fetish...

Geth haters are parroty trolls, after all. ...

Nobody in here is a Geth hater...