452 réponses à ce sujet

[Indy_S]

He's trying to imply that there is some sort of binary distinction between the two. It only serves as an excuse to insult groups of people. He does that a lot.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Indy_S wrote...

He's trying to imply that there is some sort of binary distinction between the two. It only serves as an excuse to insult groups of people. He does that a lot.

Poor Wulfie just doesn't seem that bright.

He's like that smelly kid on the playground who keeps yelling insults to make up for no one wanting to play with him.

[shodiswe]

Mangalores wrote...

shodiswe wrote...


We are told some quarians escape, likely lower priority targets that poses less of a risk/threat.

Which in reverse means wholesale slaughter of the rest.

remydat wrote...
A liveship firing at the geth is not a civilian center.  the
circumstance is the quarians turned them into dreadnaughts as shep notes
when he says doing so violates the treaty of farixen.  whether they did
or not is irrelevant.  the fact is you lose the right to claim they are
civilianships

I'm happy our generals don't have your thinking. By current UN law even in defense there is a demand of proportional response aka even if you are entirely in the right you are only allowed to take defensive action so far to ensure your own safety without inflicting undue casualties among the aggressor, particularly the civilian population.

It is very one dimensional thinking to consider the application of force solely an on and off switch. If we take the Codex entry the Geth outflank the Quarians and threaten the entire civilian fleet from the rear. We are not talking about some insignificant battle, we are talking about the fact that refusing to surrender would mean the complete annihilation of a race with few survivors.

There is no reason to side with the Geth and allow them to annihilate the Quarians. When in doubt bypass Gerrel and make a general declaration that every Quarian ship standing down will not be attacked and cease to engage targets in distress or breaking off the engagement. If that offer is on the table even after some losses Quarians will most likely start to surrender when their position deterioates.

Instead of treating non dreadnaughts as dreadnaughts because they have big guns precision strikes would be the first choice against military installations hiding within a civilian target aka try to disable the guns without killing the ship.

We know firsthand from the Quarians that they
aren't that bloodthirsty or extremist to rather die than surrender since
there are factions opposed to the war.

They are after all attacking the Geth Full barrage all according to Admiral Gerrel "AKA Grand Moff Tarkin" orders, the only Quarians who escape are those to dissobeys orders and runs. (likely civilians who arn't udner militant leader control who actualy values their own lives)
The "slaughter" of the rest is done in self defence, they are after all attacking with formidable weaponry, it's not like anyone can claim their weapons are toys which somehow justifies special treatment.

The Liveships got dreadnaught guns, their damage output is tremendous, leavign them alive threatens the survival of all Geth. It's not liek they can choose to ignore them safely, no less than any fleet or army could ignore a nuclear missile silo with almost infinate warheads.
To stop that ship from ripping their whole fleet appart they would need to board that ship and that still puts their fleet and people at danger for an extended period of time since a boarding action takes more time than fiering a few volleys at the ship toothing WMD's.
Also I doubt the Quarians on that ship would hand over their ship to the boarding party willingly.

At the end if the day the liveships would be regarded as nuclearmissile silos that are fiering a few nukes/second with "humanshileds for protection even if they are Quarian civilians or were Quarian civilians.
It's not like it's a hostage standoff which you can resolve carefuly without fiering any guns(they are already fiering a constant stream of WMD's), what you got is an enemy combatant spreading Death and destruction in their Wake.
The only option for the Geth is to lay down their weapons and die, because they won't be shown any mercy.
Which would spell the end for their "whole" people. Would any military commander accept that? Would you feel safe with military commadners who are giving away your whole peoples future and right to exist?

Modifié par shodiswe, 26 avril 2013 - 01:41 .

[shodiswe]

If the Quarians had attacked the Asari with the stated goal of wiping out every last Asari in existance and they had a fleet large enough to actualy threated the Asaris existance then I'm pretty sure the Asari woudl have fired at those Liveships hoping to limit the incomming damage from the Quarian flotilla by removing a few of the Dreadnaught guns fiering at them.
I don't think any military of the Mass Effect universe would have treated the Quarians differently under the same circumstances. With the Quarians having the stated goal of eliminating the other species.

Also note that if you make Peace and the Quarians stop fiering then the Geth stops aswell. When the Geth stopped they were already upgraded and could have wiped out the Quarians with ease, but they didn't, because they were no longer enemy combatants and were showing a change of heart.

Modifié par shodiswe, 26 avril 2013 - 01:47 .

[Mangalores]

shodiswe wrote...
...

At the end if the day the liveships would be regarded as nuclearmissile silos that are fiering a few nukes/second with "humanshileds for protection even if they are Quarian civilians or were Quarian civilians.
It's not like it's a hostage standoff which you can resolve carefuly without fiering any guns(they are already fiering a constant stream of WMD's), what you got is an enemy combatant spreading Death and destruction in their Wake.
The only option for the Geth is to lay down their weapons and die, because they won't be shown any mercy.

You are intentionally exaggerating here. What you claim we plainly do not see. We see the Geth fleet, we see the Quarians fleet, we see them exchanging blows and we know from the level of tech that ME ships can withstand such bombardment. To equalize that to nukes is ridiculous, otherwise the Geth would not win so easily.

What you get is Quarian ships getting blown to pieces left and right and Quarian captains pleading for rescue. Your imagination is not convincing. The enemy is obviously pleading for mercy, he is obviously outgunned and he's obviously incapable to severly hurt the Geth fleet.

The issue is not the Quarians being idiots, the issue is killing them long past them being a threat. No, I don't think any other species would have done this. Krogans maybe, but Turians, Asari or humans? We have laws against that and the Turians and Asari don't like drowning kitten for fun.

Modifié par Mangalores, 26 avril 2013 - 01:54 .

[Indy_S]

shodiswe wrote...

With the Quarians having the stated goal of retaking their homeworld.

Thought that might need a fix. The elimination of the Geth may have been on the agenda but the primary goal was always Rannoch.

[Xilizhra]

The issue is not the Quarians being idiots, the issue is killing them long past them being a threat. No, I don't think any other species would have done this. Krogans maybe, but Turians, Asari or humans? We have laws against that and the Turians and Asari don't like drowning kitten for fun.

What are you talking about? Turians shoot everyone who doesn't enter their safe camps immediately during war.

[Mangalores]

Xilizhra wrote...
What are you talking about? Turians shoot everyone who doesn't enter their safe camps immediately during war.

Last time I checked they took POWs so no? But it's beside the point.

[remydat]

Silver

I did not doge the question. It was answered. They can choose to believe or not. I am not claiming there is proof. I am claiming the Quarians were told because they were.

If you think it is ok to stone women because the law says it then we can agree to disagree. Nothing more to say I fundamnetally disagree and will always disagree.

No quarter or mercy given. None received. That is the ruthless calculas of war.

[Mangalores]

remydat wrote...

...

No quarter or mercy given. None received. That is the ruthless calculas of war.

In what age do you live? That wasn't even true before nominal international law (which started around 1648 with the peace of Westphalia) Even in ancient times the display of clemency was usually a part of the tradition of war. And our ancient forefathers weren't particularly nice people. The order to not take prisoners was a very specific one of utmost cruelty against a specific enemy, aka it was a deliberate choice and only used in specific conditions.

[remydat]

So when the Atomic Bombs were dropped it did not kill civilians even though it landed on a hospital?

When did the Quarians ever use proportion in killing the Geth? Did they use proportion when they attacked Farmer Legion? Finally in the no peace option, the quarians fire on a defenseless enemy and then if you refuse the upload the Geth try to flee and Gherel orders the fleeing Geth slaughtered.

Look if you want people to play nice in war then it needs to be BOTH sides. The Quarians never showed the Geth mercy. Never. If the Geth show no mercy they learned it from the Quarians who tried to exterminate domestic, farming, and mining units. Just because those units had Chuck Norris programs that allowed them to kill their attackers doesn't change the fact they were civilians. Farmer Legion just wanted to plant seeds. He was forced to pick up the sniper riffle because his life and the life of the other domestic units were threatened. So again no quarter or mercy given, none received.  Although even then the Geth sparhe Quarians once they fled.  We know from the game the Quarians try to exterminate fleeing Geth completely.

Modifié par remydat, 26 avril 2013 - 03:11 .

[remydat]

Mangalores wrote...

remydat wrote...

...

No quarter or mercy given. None received. That is the ruthless calculas of war.

In what age do you live? That wasn't even true before nominal international law (which started around 1648 with the peace of Westphalia) Even in ancient times the display of clemency was usually a part of the tradition of war. And our ancient forefathers weren't particularly nice people. The order to not take prisoners was a very specific one of utmost cruelty against a specific enemy, aka it was a deliberate choice and only used in specific conditions.

And did you miss where this is the rule the quarians chose when they attacked?  What mercy did they show the Geth?  Please let me know.

Modifié par remydat, 26 avril 2013 - 03:02 .

[ElSuperGecko]

The Geth were the Quarian's mistake. When it came down to it, I allowed them to correct that mistake, and reclaim their homeworld.

Simple as that, really.

[Mangalores]

remydat wrote...

So when the Atomic Bombs were dropped it did not kill civilians even though it landed on a hospital?

False question. I never suggested no casualties. I talk about how war works. And

When did the Quarians ever use proportion in killing the Geth? Did they use proportion when they attacked Farmer Legion? Finally in the no peace option, the quarians fire on a defenseless enemy and then if you refuse the upload the Geth try to flee and Gherel orders the fleeing Geth slaughtered.

Look if you want people to play nice in war then it needs to be BOTH sides. The Quarians never showed the Geth mercy. Never. If the Geth show no mercy they learned it from the Quarians who tried to exterminate domestic, farming, and mining units. ...

You are mixing two separate scenarios. The scenario we are talking about now is that the Geth have the upper hand and Shepard, being educated in 4000 years of organized warfare should teach the Geth how to conduct themselves instead of standing there like an idiot.

The reverse scenario could also hold true. There is no reason for Shepard to accept the total annihilation of the Geth either, though there is an issue that they chose the "wrong" side in a bigger war. You don't have that problem with a Quarian flotilla that has been beaten.

Does none here understand the concept of proportional response which underlines international law today? Killing Quarians because they attack. Fine. Crippling their military capabilities. Fine. Annihilating the majority of their fleet. Not fine because civilian targets are interspersed with military ones.
It's really not that hard.

[remydat]

Shep stands by and lets the Quarians fire on a defenseless enemy and then when that enemy flees, the Quarians have their homeworld. The enemy is fleeing. If the stated goal was to retake the homeworld, the Quarians have won. So does Gherel stop so that they can secure the homeworld. No, he orders the fleeing Geth to be exterminated.


So forgive me, but this argument rings hollow to me. I have never heard a single person complain about the disproportional response of the Quarians. Never. I have been told repeatedly that the Quarians can't trust the Geth so it's cool that they exterminate a defenseless and fleeing enemy. Silver will try and bring up the codex but the codex says the Geth put up a defense because when they were defenseless and fleeing the Quarians kept slaughtering them. So at some point they had to turn and fight or continue to be slaughhtered even though they gave up the homeworld and were fleeing.

So look don't talk to me about the Geth unless you are prepared to also admonish the Quarians. From the start of this conflict 300 years ago they have been trying to exterminate the Geth completely and when the Geth give up the planet and are fleeing unlike the Geth in the MW who responded to Quarians finally fleeing the planet by letting them go, the Quarians respond to the Geth finally fleeing by hunting them down and exterminating them. That is stated clearly in the game. I don't have to interpret anything.  So it is weird to continue to complain about the Geth firing on ships shooting at them while being ok or remaining silent when the flip side is if the Geth flee, the Quarians exterminate them.

Modifié par remydat, 26 avril 2013 - 04:27 .

[shodiswe]

Mangalores wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
...

At the end if the day the liveships would be regarded as nuclearmissile silos that are fiering a few nukes/second with "humanshileds for protection even if they are Quarian civilians or were Quarian civilians.
It's not like it's a hostage standoff which you can resolve carefuly without fiering any guns(they are already fiering a constant stream of WMD's), what you got is an enemy combatant spreading Death and destruction in their Wake.
The only option for the Geth is to lay down their weapons and die, because they won't be shown any mercy.

You are intentionally exaggerating here. What you claim we plainly do not see. We see the Geth fleet, we see the Quarians fleet, we see them exchanging blows and we know from the level of tech that ME ships can withstand such bombardment. To equalize that to nukes is ridiculous, otherwise the Geth would not win so easily.

What you get is Quarian ships getting blown to pieces left and right and Quarian captains pleading for rescue. Your imagination is not convincing. The enemy is obviously pleading for mercy, he is obviously outgunned and he's obviously incapable to severly hurt the Geth fleet.

The issue is not the Quarians being idiots, the issue is killing them long past them being a threat. No, I don't think any other species would have done this. Krogans maybe, but Turians, Asari or humans? We have laws against that and the Turians and Asari don't like drowning kitten for fun.

Read the description on Dreadnaught weaponry... They are equivalent in destructive force to nuclear weapons, and Dreadnaught weapons are the most powerful and drestructive weaponry known to the citadel species.

And no, you can seriously be saying that a fleet with the fire Power comparable to that of the entire Turian fleet is like kittens, sure most of their ships have weaker hulls and Shields than turian warships, but they can still hurt the enemy badly unless destroyed or unless they surrender and stop fiering.

Who would stop fiering at a gang that's fiering and advancing on you? That tells their people they arn't allwoed to reatreat and orders a full barrage? We arn't talkign about kittens here, we're talking about adults flying warmachiens with massive destructive power. It's not the Geths fault if the Quarians shiops are more fragile but still got enough firepwoer to hurt oreven destroy all Geth.
They shoot or they die until ofcourse the Quarians stop.
Unless Shepard orders them to stop then they don't stop except for the few that decide to FTL out of there instead. (the Smart Quarians)

Modifié par shodiswe, 26 avril 2013 - 04:36 .

[TK514]

remydat wrote...

Shep stands by and lets the Quarians fire on a defenseless enemy and then when that enemy flees, the Quarians have their homeworld. The enemy is fleeing. If the stated goal was to retake the homeworld, the Quarians have won. So does Gherel stop so that they can secure the homeworld. No, he orders the fleeing Geth to be exterminated.

this brings up a question I've had for a while now, namely "why were the Geth still in the Rannoch system?"

Legion tells Shep that the Geth cleaned up Rannoch so the Creators could come home.  He also says the Geth have been studying organics for the last 300 years.  The Geth had to know there was no way the Quarians were going to come back to Rannoch peacefully if the Geth were still there.  So why were they?  The Geth can easily survive in interstellar space or in systems with no habitable planets.  It seems foolish in the extreme for them to have built their primary habitation sphere in a virtually guaranteed future war zone where it would be an irresistible primary target.

[Mangalores]

I'm talking about the Shepard supports the Geth scenario. I never said anything about the reverse so... why should I?

I prefer the "save both option". The only bad bargaining position the Geth have is that they collaborate with the Reapers which regardless of the rational reason for it could land them in front of the firing line because that is a war of annihilation ( Again: I don't like this and wouldn't consider it moral. It would be tragic, but I would consider it plausible for Shepard to do it ).
In reverse when the goal is to pull the Geth over to the galactic community it is weird to allow them to start by letting them exterminate someone. That's not off to a good start.

So I'm with you, judge them equally. But the Geth start off from a worse point since they joined the enemy coalition in a grand war. But had it been the Quarians that had joined the Reapers to get aid against the Geth I would consider it the same way. Sorry folks, you joined the enemy twice now so any excuses about rogue factions don't fly anymore and we are losing so badly we cannot leave enemy forces to our rear.

So there are two levels to consider:
- The Geth <> Quarian conflict in itself (here the Quarians are more to blame but none is to blame towards extermination. The Geth also killed billions)
- The Reaper War (here whoever joined the Reapers can in these desperate times draw the short stick)

Again: Saving both is the fairest result. And if I played a Shepard who backed the Quarians it would be solely because of the Reapers, not because of the Geth, and I wouldn't consider it good but possibly necessary evil absent any way to demilitarize them. But that would probably be a Renegade play-through to me. Murdering the Quarians would be psychotic to me even as a Renegade (they should be easier to make surrender).


@shodiswe:  again you taking the nuke thing out of context. Everyone in space in ME has the equivalent of nukes. The Geth should be as devastating. In relative terms it changes nothing and justifies nothing. The Geth win hands down when you support them => at some point the Quarians will be desperate to surrender and you let them die for no reason.

Modifié par Mangalores, 26 avril 2013 - 04:55 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

TK514 wrote...


this brings up a question I've had for a while now, namely "why were the Geth still in the Rannoch system?"

Legion tells Shep that the Geth cleaned up Rannoch so the Creators could come home.  He also says the Geth have been studying organics for the last 300 years.  The Geth had to know there was no way the Quarians were going to come back to Rannoch peacefully if the Geth were still there.  So why were they?  The Geth can easily survive in interstellar space or in systems with no habitable planets.  It seems foolish in the extreme for them to have built their primary habitation sphere in a virtually guaranteed future war zone where it would be an irresistible primary target.

The Geth like the Quarians suffer from plot induced stupidity in ME3.

They wanted another major decision to rival Tuchanka, that wouldn't have happened if both sides of the Geth/Quarian issue hadn't gone full retard.

[remydat]

Mang,

That's a bit convenient isn't it. You are engaged in a debate. You point out your issues with the Geth. I point out the issues you present is even worse when you look at the Quarians. Telling me you are not talking about it is meaningless. Either we discuss and judge both sides or why would I debate an issue when you refuse to acknowledge the issue exists on your side of the debate as well. It is an inherently biased position if you refuse to acknowledge the Quarians doing the very thing you admonish the Geth about.

The Geth would not join the Reapers without the Quarians. I hold the Quarians as responsible for the Geth decision as I do the Geth. Just like in the MW, they forced Farmer Legion to turn himself into Sniper Legion, the Quarians forced the Geth to join the Reapers or die. Why should I continue to punish the Geth for Quarian aggression? You are free to do so but I refuse. My philosophy is simple. In a conflict if forced to choose, I get rid of the aggressor.  The Geth were preparing to join the fight against the Reapers.  The idiot Quarians forced them to ally with them instead. Their aggression would have likely killed trillions if Shep did not intervene.

Modifié par remydat, 26 avril 2013 - 05:24 .

[Phatose]

Mangalores wrote...

I'm talking about the Shepard supports the Geth scenario. I never said anything about the reverse so... why should I?

I prefer the "save both option". The only bad bargaining position the Geth have is that they collaborate with the Reapers which regardless of the rational reason for it could land them in front of the firing line because that is a war of annihilation ( Again: I don't like this and wouldn't consider it moral. It would be tragic, but I would consider it plausible for Shepard to do it ).
In reverse when the goal is to pull the Geth over to the galactic community it is weird to allow them to start by letting them exterminate someone. That's not off to a good start.

So I'm with you, judge them equally. But the Geth start off from a worse point since they joined the enemy coalition in a grand war. But had it been the Quarians that had joined the Reapers to get aid against the Geth I would consider it the same way. Sorry folks, you joined the enemy twice now so any excuses about rogue factions don't fly anymore and we are losing so badly we cannot leave enemy forces to our rear.

So there are two levels to consider:
- The Geth <> Quarian conflict in itself (here the Quarians are more to blame but none is to blame towards extermination. The Geth also killed billions)
- The Reaper War (here whoever joined the Reapers can in these desperate times draw the short stick)

Again: Saving both is the fairest result. And if I played a Shepard who backed the Quarians it would be solely because of the Reapers, not because of the Geth, and I wouldn't consider it good but possibly necessary evil absent any way to demilitarize them. But that would probably be a Renegade play-through to me. Murdering the Quarians would be psychotic to me even as a Renegade (they should be easier to make surrender).


@shodiswe:  again you taking the nuke thing out of context. Everyone in space in ME has the equivalent of nukes. The Geth should be as devastating. In relative terms it changes nothing and justifies nothing. The Geth win hands down when you support them => at some point the Quarians will be desperate to surrender and you let them die for no reason.

I'd argue by attacking the Geth, the Quarians have already effectively allied with the Reapers. 

A neutral faction taking actions which serve the Reapers agenda is not a neutral faction any more.  Even if the Geth had not subsequently allied directly with the Reapers, the destruction caused in the Quarian's war would've at least weakened both races, serving the Reaper agenda.

[remydat]

TK,

If someone wantef to kill you because you exist, would you give them the planet that allows them the best chance of doing so? The Geth are on Rannoch because they can't teust the Quarians not to rebuild and come looking to exterminate them. We do know for a fact that when the Geth flee the battke abd thus give up Rannoch, the Quarians don't stop and secure they homeworld, the order is given for them to exterminate the enemy.

Even when Germany and Japan were rebuilt after WWII, they were rebuit with the West and the USSR basically retaining influence and effective control over the military to prevent them from rebuilding and attacking again. 60 years later, they still do so. So it is illogical to just give up land to someone that wants to destroy you.

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

The Geth are on Rannoch because they can't teust the Quarians not to rebuild and come looking to exterminate them.

That's actually wrong. In ME2, Legion tells us that the Geth consider themselves mere "caretakers" of Rannoch.We also know that they are clearing the surfaces from the traces of war even though they don't actually live there. If the Quarians had come with peaceful, unarmed ships, the Geth may have welcomed them.

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth are on Rannoch because they can't teust the Quarians not to rebuild and come looking to exterminate them.

That's actually wrong. In ME2, Legion tells us that the Geth consider themselves mere "caretakers" of Rannoch.We also know that they are clearing the surfaces from the traces of war even though they don't actually live there. If the Quarians had come with peaceful, unarmed ships, the Geth may have welcomed them.

this is the same point i am making.  they are cleaning up the planet because they dont object to letting the quarians have it.  they object to the quarians then using it to try and kill them again.  as legion says the geth cant solve for peace alone.  they are preparing the planet for a quarian return but only if the quarians provide data they will not attack 100% of the time when they think they can win.   me3 proves they cant because they attack once Xen makes her weapon.

Modifié par remydat, 26 avril 2013 - 05:29 .