452 réponses à ce sujet

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

Argolas wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth are on Rannoch because they can't teust the Quarians not to rebuild and come looking to exterminate them.

That's actually wrong. In ME2, Legion tells us that the Geth consider themselves mere "caretakers" of Rannoch.We also know that they are clearing the surfaces from the traces of war even though they don't actually live there. If the Quarians had come with peaceful, unarmed ships, the Geth may have welcomed them.

this is the same point i am making.  they are cleaning up the planet because they dont object to letting the quarians have it.  they object to the quarians then using it to try and kill them again.  as legion says the geth cant solve for peace alone.  they are preparing the planet for a quarian return but only if the quarians provide data they will not attack 100% of the time when they think they can win.   me3 proves they cant because they attack once Xen makes her weapon.

Alright then.

[TK514]

remydat wrote...

TK,

The Geth are on Rannoch because they can't teust the Quarians not to rebuild and come looking to exterminate them.

This is neither said nor implied.  Pure speculation on your part.

remydat wrote...

We do know for a fact that when the Geth flee the battke abd thus give up Rannoch, the Quarians don't stop and secure they homeworld, the order is given for them to exterminate the enemy.

The Geth leave them no choice, actually.  The Rannoch system is full of Geth installations.  Are you suggesting that the Quarians should ignore that their home system is, even with a naval victory, still overrun with the enemy?  Had the Geth built in interstellar space or an uninhabitable star system, the Quarians would have had no reason and, more importantly, no way to find them.  Cleaning up Rannoch and then disappearing into the vastness of space has exactly zero downsides for the Geth.

Modifié par TK514, 26 avril 2013 - 06:14 .

[remydat]

The Geth cannot solve for peace alone is stated by Legion in game. Legion says peace is possible once the Quarians provide data. He then says when they think they can win they attack 100% of the time. There are also cleaning up toxins. The logical conclusion from these statements is the Geth are not opposed to giving them Rannoch back provided they provide data they will not rebuild and then try to kill them once they think they can win.

And no I am suggesting that if you want to conclude a fleeing enemy leaves the Quarians no choice then a liveship strapped with cannons shooting at the Geth leaves the Geth with even less choice. This is simple. An enemy fleeing may be a threat tomorrow so fine if you want to slaughter them as they flee. I simply pointed out the Geth did not employ that logic during the MW which I guess they should have since it proved costly to them 300 years later.  This works both ways.

And no you don't give you enemy a base from which to attack. You might as well say African Americans should go back to Africa. They don't have to remain in America. Of course that type of logic in response to aggression and enslavement is in fact giving in to your oppressor. Not to mention that all that happened was your oppressor found their way to a Africa too and took what it could as well. So not sure whay you think the aggressor will stop just because the Geth flee. They will rebuild and they along with the Council may still come looking for you because they refuse to tolerate your existence. You have no right to exist ANYWHERE in space. So no wandering around space as if your ships don't need fuel and resources is stupid. Suppose you can't find them outsidebof Council Space. Suppose while you find them and are in the process of trying to set up mining facilities or space stations those organics find you and fear you are building infrastructure for war and thus attack you while you don't yet have the infrastructure that was already built on Rannoch. You want the Geth to be nice and take a risk so that the pricks who tried to exterminate them can rebuild and tey to do so again?

Modifié par remydat, 26 avril 2013 - 07:26 .

[M74]

Legion deserved a better ending.

wait... not in context....

no, it doesn't matter if you destroy the new machines if you choose the red ending.
otherwise, you may hope for Legion's resurrection.

on a moral ground, the Geth are not hostile by "nature", so why not give them a chance?

[silverexile17s]

Argolas wrote...

remydat wrote...

Argolas wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth are on Rannoch because they can't teust the Quarians not to rebuild and come looking to exterminate them.

That's actually wrong. In ME2, Legion tells us that the Geth consider themselves mere "caretakers" of Rannoch.We also know that they are clearing the surfaces from the traces of war even though they don't actually live there. If the Quarians had come with peaceful, unarmed ships, the Geth may have welcomed them.

this is the same point i am making.  they are cleaning up the planet because they dont object to letting the quarians have it.  they object to the quarians then using it to try and kill them again.  as legion says the geth cant solve for peace alone.  they are preparing the planet for a quarian return but only if the quarians provide data they will not attack 100% of the time when they think they can win.   me3 proves they cant because they attack once Xen makes her weapon.

Alright then.

But that's WRONG once again. If they truely felt that, why did the geth build hundreds of defense emplacements, servers, factory units, jamming towers, and bunkers across Rannoch's surface? Not to mention a planatary defense cannon, that could fire up into space at the quarian fleet. The geth literally made Rannoch into a fortress. Remy, with all that, HOW the hell can you possibly say that the geth were planning to retrun Rannoch? There is NOTHING in game that is even said or implied that the geth had ANY plans to return Rannoch. If anything, Legion implies that the reason the geth were repairing the landscape was out of trying to sooth a guilty consious. NOT because they intended the quarians to return.

[silverexile17s]

Mangalores wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
What are you talking about? Turians shoot everyone who doesn't enter their safe camps immediately during war.

Last time I checked they took POWs so no? But it's beside the point.

Actually, that's not true. Turians go door-to-door with and set up demilitrization camps. Anyone that disagrees with the order to come with them are shot on sight, REGARDLESS of being civilians or military. If they refuse to comply, they get shot immediately. Then they publicly burn the bodies as a warning to discourage further resistance or refusal to comply with turian doctrine. So yes, the turians are exactally as Xilizhra describes them as - harsh and uncomprimising. Garrus isn't an accurate representation of turians, because his sarcastic wit and laid-back attitude are an abnormality in turian culture, just like Wrex's own conservative ideals are an abnormality to krogan culture.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 avril 2013 - 08:43 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Why are you guys using the ME3 survey data as evidence? All it does is prove the majority of ME3 players were imbeciles (herpa-derp, lets cure the genophage with loveable pacifist Wreav in charge!) who, by and large, got the worst ending and presumably blew up the entire galaxy.

So people have to be part of a special intelectual elite that you have aproved to make their choices count?
While I tend to agree that a lot of people possibly the majority keeps making incredibly stupid choices.
My first playthrough resulted in what I would call the optimal outcome given game parameters. No metagaming was nessesary.
Maybe the people who did pick horrible choices thought they did the right thing?

This thread and several others are indicative of that notion.

If you look at our history and people in todays society then you wll know it's the truth.

Which is that everyone is different, and that NO ONE can be judged by a spicific set of standards. Legion himself says such judgement is benign antromorphism, and the Nth degree of racicim. And the entire POINT of these games is weather or not the right choice is or isn't the morally sound choice. It's NEVER that simple. IDK if you know this, but Paragon isn't always the right choice.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 avril 2013 - 08:46 .

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

In honesty, does anyone really think their involvement in this makes them look good? Perhaps it's just a good idea to stop feeding the trolls at this point. A minority here just have an unfathomable Geth hate fetish, which isn't shared by anyone else, whilst the rest of us are perfectly okay with both the Quarians and the Geth. The rest of us are able to observe that both sides have had extremist outliers who've caused no end of problems.

At this point, I think it's just trolling and counter-trolling, because we're retreading old ground, refuting arguments which have been made a hundred-thousand times before. Geth haters are parroty trolls, after all. Well, it's up to you guys. I really do think it's just feeding the trolls at this point, though.

Once again, no one brought up things like that until you came into this. You repeatedly try to "Godwin" every agruement, and last I checked, the thread you tried to start was closed near-instantly.
ONCE AGAIN, it is NOT a hate of the geth. It's a hate of people like you saying that they have committed no sin and can be completely excused from all their actions, while the quarians deserve death. You are the one that never even acknowledged that the Heretic's existance was NOT a publicly known fact until AFTER the Rannoch War was over, thanks to the Alliance classifing the infomation.
And once again, you notice the ONLY one being called a troll is you, @shodiwse, and @remydat? Look at other geth supporters like @Xilizhra, who has been able to defend the geth WITHOUT needing to resort to petty trolling like you have. @Hazegirl can be civil about it too, provided you don't act condesedning to her first, because if you do act like a jerk, she will push back.

[Auld Wulf]

TK514 wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth are on Rannoch because they can't teust the Quarians not to rebuild and come looking to exterminate them.

This is neither said nor implied.  Pure speculation on your part.

Pure evidence of trolling on your part, which is why I think this thread needs to be locked. Basically, you have trolls and not trolls in this argument. The trolls want the Geth destroyed, the rest of us are perfectly okay with both the Geth and the Quarians. This is, straight up, a stirring the pot thread.

Why are you a troll?

Legion: 100% of the time when the Creators believed they could win, they have attacked us.
Source: Tali's loyalty mission in ME2.

You Sir, are a troll. The Geth haters in this thread are trolls. This thread just needs to be locked.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

You forgot to call him a Luddite and a sociopath.

You're losing your edge Wulfie.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

shodiswe wrote...


We are told some quarians escape, likely lower priority targets that poses less of a risk/threat.

Which in reverse means wholesale slaughter of the rest.

remydat wrote...
A liveship firing at the geth is not a civilian center.  the
circumstance is the quarians turned them into dreadnaughts as shep notes
when he says doing so violates the treaty of farixen.  whether they did
or not is irrelevant.  the fact is you lose the right to claim they are
civilianships

I'm happy our generals don't have your thinking. By current UN law even in defense there is a demand of proportional response aka even if you are entirely in the right you are only allowed to take defensive action so far to ensure your own safety without inflicting undue casualties among the aggressor, particularly the civilian population.

It is very one dimensional thinking to consider the application of force solely an on and off switch. If we take the Codex entry the Geth outflank the Quarians and threaten the entire civilian fleet from the rear. We are not talking about some insignificant battle, we are talking about the fact that refusing to surrender would mean the complete annihilation of a race with few survivors.

There is no reason to side with the Geth and allow them to annihilate the Quarians. When in doubt bypass Gerrel and make a general declaration that every Quarian ship standing down will not be attacked and cease to engage targets in distress or breaking off the engagement. If that offer is on the table even after some losses Quarians will most likely start to surrender when their position deterioates.

Instead of treating non dreadnaughts as dreadnaughts because they have big guns precision strikes would be the first choice against military installations hiding within a civilian target aka try to disable the guns without killing the ship.

We know firsthand from the Quarians that they
aren't that bloodthirsty or extremist to rather die than surrender since
there are factions opposed to the war.

They are after all attacking the Geth Full barrage all according to Admiral Gerrel "AKA Grand Moff Tarkin" orders, the only Quarians who escape are those to dissobeys orders and runs. (likely civilians who arn't udner militant leader control who actualy values their own lives)
The "slaughter" of the rest is done in self defence, they are after all attacking with formidable weaponry, it's not like anyone can claim their weapons are toys which somehow justifies special treatment.

The Liveships got dreadnaught guns, their damage output is tremendous, leavign them alive threatens the survival of all Geth. It's not liek they can choose to ignore them safely, no less than any fleet or army could ignore a nuclear missile silo with almost infinate warheads.
To stop that ship from ripping their whole fleet appart they would need to board that ship and that still puts their fleet and people at danger for an extended period of time since a boarding action takes more time than fiering a few volleys at the ship toothing WMD's.
Also I doubt the Quarians on that ship would hand over their ship to the boarding party willingly.

At the end if the day the liveships would be regarded as nuclearmissile silos that are fiering a few nukes/second with "humanshileds for protection even if they are Quarian civilians or were Quarian civilians.
It's not like it's a hostage standoff which you can resolve carefuly without fiering any guns(they are already fiering a constant stream of WMD's), what you got is an enemy combatant spreading Death and destruction in their Wake.
The only option for the Geth is to lay down their weapons and die, because they won't be shown any mercy.
Which would spell the end for their "whole" people. Would any military commander accept that? Would you feel safe with military commadners who are giving away your whole peoples future and right to exist?

Allow me to point out the flaws in this.

First off, this is when they thought the geth were genocidal lunitics. Up until this point there is NOTHING to show the geth were ever anything but irreridemibly hostile to organics, both before and after the Reapers came along. As far as the quarians know, letting the geth escape is just giving them the chance to rebuild and return later. As far as the quarians know, the geth hated organics for years. As far as they know, the geth openly declared war on the entire galaxy at the Citadel. NO ONE KNOWS that the attack on the Citadel was done by a faction of extrimests, because the Alliance classified that information, since nothing Shepard said could be used as "verifiable intel" thanks to Shepard's Cerberus Ties.
As far as the quarians know, the geth are no more friendly to organics then the Reapers, so why the hell would they have any reason to think about sparing them? If the Reapers were disabled and open to attack, are you saying we should let THEM go?

And AGAIN, wrong. Every quarian ship was shooting. Only a few survived by slipping out of the net the geth wove. And AGAIN, the geth can manuver fighters to block incoming enemy fire with perfect percision, but can't take out some loosely grafted-on gun emplacements? Bullsh*t. The geth have proven repeatedly that with their Reaper Upgrades, the quarians are NOT any form of threat to them. They were able to corner and supress them repeatedly with little effort under Reaper control, Once they had the upgrades. the quarians were NO form of threat to them anymore. They could have pushed them out of the system, rather then obliterate them. They didn't. They CHOSE to slaughter the remaining quarians.

Those guns are loosly grafted on glass ships. That makes them artillery. And artillery is USLESS at close range. The Galactic Codex completely contridicts you by stating that dreadnought-class guns are USELESS at close range, becaus they are like catapults - they can't fire accurately or quickly at close range. Their guns are like sniper rifles. Slow fire draw, and useless in a knife-fight. And since they are grafted speed-jobs, rather easy to disable. And those ships were not a threat ANYTIME BEFORE. The entire time you were fighting the Reaper-controlled geth, they were coralling the quarians at every turn. Those liveships were NEVER a threat to them before, why the hell would they be now? AGAIN, false point. The liveships, or for that matter, ANY of the quarian ships, stopped being any form of threat to the geth once they got their upgrades back. And once again, EVERY GETH SHIP is a dedicated warship, like the turians. The geth have nearly as many dreadnoughts as the turians - which is nearly 30 dreadnoughts. The quarians have three liveships. WHO exactally is the bigger threat in this fight? Because I'm pretty sure about 24 dedicated dreadnought-class warships, each much larger and better armed then legally allowed, trumps three retrofitted food cultuvators.

So in reality, those ships are NOT any form of threat to the geth with their upgrades. And AGAIN, the quarian civilians weren't even supposed to be on the front lines. Xen's viral weapon was supposed to make it so that only Gerrel's Heavy Fleet and Raan's Patrol Fleet were ever in the fight. When the geth coralled the quarians together after being upgraded, the military was forced to hunker up around the civilians to protect them. The liveships are nothing more then oversized transports, and unable to defend against the geth's atatck. A squadron of geth fighters can tear them apart easily, as shown in why you needed to shut down that geth server. It is NOT a hostage standoff, since the quarians are WILLINGLY there (remember, the Conclave voted in the majority to this, because the altenritive was death in space against the Reapers). They AREN'T living shields because they opted to go to war rather then die in space, and they aren't combatants because those civililans are all packed in the civilian ships like transports.
The geth could have either drvien the quarians out of system, or coralled them and forced a surrender. They killed them when there WERE other options avalible. They just IGNORED them. They slaughtered the quarians when alternitives WERE avalible. Once again, the quarians went to war because they DIDN'T see any other choice if they wanted to have Rannoch back. The geth DID have alternitives and ignored them, slaughtering the quarians when they were no longer any form of threat to them.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

TK514 wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth are on Rannoch because they can't teust the Quarians not to rebuild and come looking to exterminate them.

This is neither said nor implied.  Pure speculation on your part.

Pure evidence of trolling on your part, which is why I think this thread needs to be locked. Basically, you have trolls and not trolls in this argument. The trolls want the Geth destroyed, the rest of us are perfectly okay with both the Geth and the Quarians. This is, straight up, a stirring the pot thread.

Why are you a troll?

Legion: 100% of the time when the Creators believed they could win, they have attacked us.
Source: Tali's loyalty mission in ME2.

You Sir, are a troll. The Geth haters in this thread are trolls. This thread just needs to be locked.

And your PROOF of any of this is.............????
Seriously? You go on this tangent and call him a troll, and FAIL to put up not even ONE example of proof?
YOU sir, are the troll in this. He stated the simple facts - there is NOTHING in game that supports the idea that the geth were going to return Rannoch.
And the geth coating Rannoch's surface with bases, defense emplacements, servers, jamming towers, and a planatary defense cannon that can fire into space, CLINCHES the fact that the geth had NO intent to return Rannoch. The Megatstructure would have perminately bound them to live in Rannoch's system forever. And Legion tells you that the geth repaired the landscape to shooth a guilty consionce.

And the geth recalled Legion, and ALSO 100% of the time, they killed anyone that EVER tried to negotiate with them. Source: Mass Effect: Revelation.

Sorry, but YOU are the troll. And now, because you appearantly have run out of things to say, you are trying to get the thread locked? How petty can you get?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver

I did not doge the question. It was answered. They can choose to believe or not. I am not claiming there is proof. I am claiming the Quarians were told because they were.

If you think it is ok to stone women because the law says it then we can agree to disagree. Nothing more to say I fundamnetally disagree and will always disagree.

No quarter or mercy given. None received. That is the ruthless calculas of war.

And that you think they sould bank 17 million lives on the fleeting chance that ONE GETH is not lying and trying to lure them into a geth deathtrap. AGAIN, your proof of Legion being sincere is.....?????
AGAIN, you DID dodge the question. So, ONCE AGAIN, the reason any sensible person would take the word of a single rouge member of a race that, to the best of there knowledge, declared open war on the galaxy, IS???? The proof that the True Geth are open to negotiate IS????
Give a real answer this time and STOP dodging the question.

Then you will always have a narrow, and fundimentally incorrect view of the world. Your laws are NOT evertone's laws. You and I both agree that stoning a woman is wrong, but unlike you, I accpet that it's how their culture works, and that I am not God and can't dictate how they are supposed to act. YOU however think you can. Legion himself says that such ideals are the Nth degree of racism.

And AGAIN, I repeat: Geth are ALL soldiers. ALL can fight in an instant. This is NOT true of the quarians. The geth have PROVEN they knew moral differences. They CHOSE to be ruthless for the hell of it, when there was NO necessary cause for it. It was unessesary to resort to chemical weapons. It was unessesary to mass-slaughter everyone in sight. The geth became the agressors in the war.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 avril 2013 - 09:35 .

[Fayfel]

If you select the appropriate renegade dialogue in ME2, you can tell Legion that the geth should return the quarian homeworld. Legion explains that doing so would be pointless, because the quarians would continue to hate them. Everyone seems to miss this dialogue because it disappears if you select the investigate options.

I wish L'etoile's posts could be pulled up from the old forums. By far the most interesting information on the subject.

[remydat]

Silver,

They built that stuff because the Quarians want to kill them. The Geth cannot solve for peace alone. They have no problem giving them back Rannoch. They just don't believe the Quarians will not try to kill them so they build defenses as well. Once the Quarians accept peace they not only give them Rannoch back they go out of their way to help them rebuild. The issue has always been whether the Quarians will accept the Geth not the other way around.

And once again I reject that logic.  Go ask that women if she wants to be stoned and get back to me.  Believe what you want but expecting me to accept that bull**** because youbdo is ridiculous.

Farmer Legion was not a soldier.  He was a farmer.  Chuck Norris is not a soldier.  Just because he can kick your ass doesnt make him  a soldier.  Farmer Legion's job was to plant seeds.  The Quarians forced him to kill.

Modifié par remydat, 27 avril 2013 - 12:40 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

It, forced it. Geth don't have genders Remy.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 27 avril 2013 - 02:27 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

They built that stuff because the Quarians want to kill them. The Geth cannot solve for peace alone. They have no problem giving them back Rannoch. They just don't believe the Quarians will not try to kill them so they build defenses as well. Once the Quarians accept peace they not only give them Rannoch back they go out of their way to help them rebuild. The issue has always been whether the Quarians will accept the Geth not the other way around.

And once again I reject that logic.  Go ask that women if she wants to be stoned and get back to me.  Believe what you want but expecting me to accept that bull**** because youbdo is ridiculous.

Farmer Legion was not a soldier.  He was a farmer.  Chuck Norris is not a soldier.  Just because he can kick your ass doesnt make him  a soldier.  Farmer Legion's job was to plant seeds.  The Quarians forced him to kill.

But doesn't saying that they built it to defend against the quarians completely contridict your earlier statement about the geth wanting to return Rannoch? If they REALLY wanted to return Rannoch, they would NOT have built those emplacements. They would have left Rannoch uninhabited, and settled on another world that WASN'T fundemeltally necessary to quarian development, like Adas.
They built those emplacements because they didn't want anything to do with the galaxy at large. They were not interested in negotiation from ANYONE. Especally not the quarians, as shown when they prevent Legion from returning Tali's messages. And when they killed EVERYONE that ever tried talking to them before.
And AGAIN, at this point, the geth don't really have much choice BUT to help. The quarians are neighbors. They have little choice but to be friendly. After the war ended, the two civilizations went their seperate ways and developed seperately from each-other. It's like Anhur in the Terminus systems - a world populated by both humans AND batarians. They live together, but are not culturally intertwined. They help each-other out from time to time but don't live in each-other's territories.
So, AGAIN, you are wrong, because you AGAIN try to pin this on the quarians not bei9ng open, when NITHER were open to this. The geth were not any more open to peace for the SAME REASONS the quarians were - lack of fundimental trust, goodwill, and proof of sincerity on EITHER side made BOTH not desire peace.

And Once again, that means you reject the real world.
They do those things to CRIMINALS. Rapists, murderers, thieves, ect. How about I ask the person said woman KILLED, or RAPED, or RANSACKED to get her death sentance if he thinks it's fair? Because I'm pretty sure that if said person would say it's fair. You CAN'T stand there and say "you entire world is wrong" just because it doesn't fit into YOUR views of the world.
"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honon matters. The silence is your answer."
Death penalty is a death penalty. Their culture works differently in the method, but the act of sentanceing is still the same.
The krogan to the SAME THING - kill brutally. They throw them to wild varren. The turians are even worse - they mow down women and clilderen in war if they try to resist heading to the Demilitrization camps. This happens in both real life and fiction. And AGAIN, what right to YOU have to play God and dictate how they practice law and culture? You aren't turian, or krogan, or vorcha, or the like. You are human. You DON'T have their cultural perspective. You are free to disagree, but NOTHING gives you the right to dictate to a completely differnet culture what right and wrong is. Your laws are NOT theirs. You are not God. You can disagree with the morals, but you don't have the divine athourity to dictate cultural practices, or chastize them on their ancestroal views. Stop acting like you do.

And for the FOURTH time now, I will AGAIN point it out: THAT. GETH. WAS. NOT. LEGION. The memory was pulled by Legion from one of the geth in the server. It was one of the memories from the geth in the server. NOT. LEGION.
And AGAIN, "built as tools of labor and WAR."
They ALL were built as soldiers that doubled as servants. Look at the Borg from Star Trek. No distinction among them. ALL are borg. NO civilian distinction. ALL are killing machines. THAT is what the geth were: machines that can do any task automatically. They were ALL soldiers. Civilians DO NOT EXIST AMONG THE GETH. THIS IS STATED BY LEGION HIMSELF.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 27 avril 2013 - 02:56 .

[silverexile17s]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

It, forced it. Geth don't have genders Remy.

I think he's going off of how Joker called Legion "Him."

[Phatose]

On a fundamental level, I doubt the Geth ever intended to "return" Rannoch. The fact is that it's their home too. They can't actually "return" it, as it's as much their world as it is the Quarians. All they can really do is repair the ecological damage in the hopes someday the Quarians might be willing to share it peacefully with them.

Given the history though, any species would build defenses. Hoping to one day share the world isn't the same as being willing to cede it entirely.

Realistically, they couldn't just cede it even if they wanted to. We know from Legion in ME2 that the Geth have a considerable hardware shortage - not in terms on mobile platforms, but rather processing power, so much so that most Geth spend their time in storage. It's like having most of your race in cryogenic stasis. Except given the Geth's communal nature, the more Geth that are in storage instead of active, the dumber every active Geth is.

Giving up the servers on Rannoch may have become an option if the megastructure was complete. It was not though, so allowing the loss of servers on Rannoch would not only further limit how many Geth were 'alive' at any time, it would also make the ones who were 'alive' dumber.

That truth keeps the Geth as close to existing hardware as possible. Colonization is extremely hard even if you're not a galactic pariah who no one will help. If you are - and you get dumber for being away from your fellows to boot - it's a non-option. So the Geth built where there was infrastructure.


Still leaves us with the reality that the Quarians struck first both times.

More tellingly, the Quarian effort to retake their homeworld didn't actually involve an attack on the defenses of that homeworld. Even after Shepard has arrived, the Quarians haven't actually done much of anything to try to retake Rannock.

What they have done is attack on the Geth megastructure. That isn't a military base. It's not a warship, nor is it their homeworld they claim to be out to retake. It's a solar collector attached to servers. The Geth equivalent of a civilian city.

Modifié par Phatose, 27 avril 2013 - 03:27 .

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

On a fundamental level, I doubt the Geth ever intended to "return" Rannoch. The fact is that it's their home too. They can't actually "return" it, as it's as much their world as it is the Quarians. All they can really do is repair the ecological damage in the hopes someday the Quarians might be willing to share it peacefully with them.

Given the history though, any species would build defenses. Hoping to one day share the world isn't the same as being willing to cede it entirely.

Realistically, they couldn't just cede it even if they wanted to. We know from Legion in ME2 that the Geth have a considerable hardware shortage - not in terms on mobile platforms, but rather processing power, so much so that most Geth spend their time in storage. It's like having most of your race in cryogenic stasis. Except given the Geth's communal nature, the more Geth that are in storage instead of active, the dumber every active Geth is.

Giving up the servers on Rannoch may have become an option if the megastructure was complete. It was not though, so allowing the loss of servers on Rannoch would not only further limit how many Geth were 'alive' at any time, it would also make the ones who were 'alive' dumber.

That truth keeps the Geth as close to existing hardware as possible. Colonization is extremely hard even if you're not a galactic pariah who no one will help. If you are - and you get dumber for being away from your fellows to boot - it's a non-option. So the Geth built where there was infrastructure.


Still leaves us with the reality that the Quarians struck first both times.

More tellingly, the Quarian effort to retake their homeworld didn't actually involve an attack on the defenses of that homeworld. Even after Shepard has arrived, the Quarians haven't actually done much of anything to try to retake Rannock.

What they have done is attack on the Geth megastructure. That isn't a military base. It's not a warship, nor is it their homeworld they claim to be out to retake. It's a solar collector attached to servers. The Geth equivalent of a civilian city.

But AGAIN, the butchering of anyone and everyone that ever tried to negotiate peacefully with them kinda contridicts the idea that the geth EVER planned to return Rannoch before the Rannoch War. Planatary defense cannon, plus dozens of defensive emplacements, jamming towers, servers, and a population of geth platforms on-planet that numbers in at least the single-digit billions? On top of killing everyone that ever tried to contact them? And allowing the Heretics to leave with Sovergien, despite knowing full well what they would do if they let them go? It really does not look as though the geth ever intended on returning Rannoch at any point. Or that they were EVER planning to allow anyone near the system at all to begin with. Honestly, with all the geth fleets and their stations, and the megastructure itself, the geth didin't seem to have ANY plans on sharing the system with anyone, given how they seem to have colonized ALL of the quarian's worlds with at least a few stations apiece.

And that is actually a completely false premise. Geth servers serve as the "true" world of the geth. The geth in those servers are ALWAYS active. The problem is that they cannot interconnect with them all simoultaniously. You completely misunderstood the problem the geth had. It was NOT that they were in any form of "stasis." It was that they could not all connect with each-other at once. They WERE all active, but the difference was in how many were communing at any one time. Dense clusters of interconnected geth, to be exact. They were building that megatsructure in the hope of becoming a signle interconnected cluster of minds. As they are, they cannot interconnect all at once - they have to cycle who talks when. They can't all commune at the same time.
In truth, the geth are alot like the Asari's E-Democracy. Except the consensis isn't imposed by preciding elders. The base premise of all communing actively to reach a consensis is their culture. Making it so that they can all commune at the exact same time is their overall goal - hence the massive communication and gathering center the Megastructure was ment to be.

Also, with the elements not being a problem, the geth have proven they can in fact, literally colonize ANYWHERE. Remember the five geth colonies in the Armstrong Cluster? All different worlds. The geth can literally build infrastructure ANYWHERE. Including space stations, since, unlike the quarians, the geth don't NEED a world to survive.

Also, I believe we covered how each time, they did so out of desperation, born out of fear of a greater power. NO different then the geth.
Let me put it plainly.
The quarian's attack the geth out of fear of what a greater power then theirs (The Council) will do to them for accidently creating an A.I. race.
The geth rebell out of fear of what a greater power then theirs (the quarians) will do to them.
And then in the Rannoch War.
The quarians attack out of fear of what a greater power then theirs (the Reapers) will do to them if they don't have a homeworld to shelter on.
The geth join the Reapers out of fear of what a greater power then theirs (The quarian's viral weapons) will do to them with all their defenses now stripped away by the "flashbang virus."
In all cases, the quarians did EXACTALLY the same thing the geth did: act out of desperation born from fear of a bigger fish. So if you fault the quarians, you are simoultaniously faulting the geth too. Understand that.

Also, that was because the geth were coralling them like sheep. The quarians entire stratagy - EVERYTHING, from attack plans to retreat stratagy - was built around the notion that the geth would NEVER be able to counter Xen's virus. And I admit it - a battle plan where EVERYTHING , including your ONLY hope of retreat if things get too hot, hinges on one viral weapon being infalible, isn't the best of plans. But hey, the entire galaxy did the same thing with the Crucible, so it's hard to falut the quarians on that aspect. 
Anyway, the point is that once the geth became immune to the viral weapon, they dominated the quarians easily. The quarians never COULD get close enough to Rannoch to make attacks on those fortifacations. It took all the time after Shepard arrived to help for them to muster the strength and reorginize themselves for a counterstrike. The geth are balsting them every chance they get. If they could just march up to Rannoch and attack, they damn well would have.

Also, again, that's wrong. The Megastructure is surrounded by armed stations, akin to the Heretic Headquarters. Imagine 12 or so of those stations around the megastructure. And the geth armada, which rivals the turians in fighting prowas, and in their number of dreadnoughts. AND it's the central hub of all geth communications. It would be impossible to mask the massive amount of geth transmissions comming from it. In other words, the megastructure is where the geth are coordinating their war effort. It's basically the geth's HQ. That's not what I would call an "unessessary target." It's their central command center, the core of the geth war effort. Of course that makes it a target.  And again, the geth don't HAVE civilians. Legion himself, as well as the Codex on Geth Culture, explisitly say that civilians don't exist among the geth. They are like the rachni - they are either active combatants, or non-active combatants. No such thing as "civilians" exist among them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 27 avril 2013 - 06:01 .

[Mangalores]

Phatose wrote...
...

I'd argue by attacking the Geth, the Quarians have already effectively allied with the Reapers. 

A neutral faction taking actions which serve the Reapers agenda is not a neutral faction any more.  Even if the Geth had not subsequently allied directly with the Reapers, the destruction caused in the Quarian's war would've at least weakened both races, serving the Reaper agenda.

No, they haven't. They pulled a localized conflict into a greater war. The Quarians end up on "your" side because the Geth choose the "Reaper" side.

It's quite frankly a bit mindboggling to turn the reasoning on the head. The Quarians and Geth were neutral to the Reaper threat at the start. The Quarians thought that with the superpowers distracted they can solve their own petty blood feud. Instead they failed and those superpowers got involved. Now those two factions have allied with either side, not before, and from the perspective of the Citadel races the Geth chose the wrong side.

Accusing sovereign entities to be self interested pricks does not make them working for the enemy, however inconvenient their **** ups are. It's inconvenient, it's dumb, it might be immorale and the escalation of the conflict tragic. Neither the Geth or the Quarians however had ever any obligation to you or the Citadel races to do anything so they can annihilate each other and that would be their choice and is their right as sovereign entities.

That they end up on your or the Reaper's side is because you need them in your war, not that they had any obligation to do anything to your liking just because you say so.

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

It, forced it. Geth don't have genders Remy.

I will refer to Legion how I please.  You are free to do the same.

[remydat]

Silver,

You don't just sit there defenseless for 300 years while you wait for the Quarians to get their sh*t together and stop trying to kill you.

As for the stoning, clearly you don't understand what I am talking about. They are not getting stoned for committing murder. They are getting stoned for dumb sh*t. A 19 year old girl was stoned to death in Iran because she took part in a beauty pageant. Women are also routinely stoned for adultery while men who commit adultery basically have to give their wife a goat or two and it's all good. So go read up on this issue before you speak on it because it sounds really ridiculous for you to think the issue is women being stoned for committing murder.

And don't care whether you think it was Legion or not. He was a farmer and he was attacked. Doesn't matter that he can shoot a gun. He was farming. He was attacked while he was a farmer and causing no harm. Once again, show me where the Quarians ever showed the Geth any mercy? Otherwise, can't ask for mercy from the Geth when you never showed them any.

Modifié par remydat, 27 avril 2013 - 02:59 .

[remydat]

Mangalores wrote...

No, they haven't. They pulled a localized conflict into a greater war. The Quarians end up on "your" side because the Geth choose the "Reaper" side.

It's quite frankly a bit mindboggling to turn the reasoning on the head. The Quarians and Geth were neutral to the Reaper threat at the start. The Quarians thought that with the superpowers distracted they can solve their own petty blood feud. Instead they failed and those superpowers got involved. Now those two factions have allied with either side, not before, and from the perspective of the Citadel races the Geth chose the wrong side.

Accusing sovereign entities to be self interested pricks does not make them working for the enemy, however inconvenient their **** ups are. It's inconvenient, it's dumb, it might be immorale and the escalation of the conflict tragic. Neither the Geth or the Quarians however had ever any obligation to you or the Citadel races to do anything so they can annihilate each other and that would be their choice and is their right as sovereign entities.

That they end up on your or the Reaper's side is because you need them in your war, not that they had any obligation to do anything to your liking just because you say so.

The Geth were preparing for a Reaper War.  The galaxy was already having enough trouble with the Reapers and the Quarians added another enemy to the table.  If I did not intervene when I did and the Geth had wiped the floor with the Quarians and then made it out of the PV, the Galaxy would be f**ked.   They could have called me and said, "Can you go talk to them and try and broker peace like you did with the Krogan and Turians?"

The issue boils down to this to me.  Do you hold your friend and ally more accountable for their decision to risk the galaxy based on a threat (Reapers) that was not currently killing them or do you hold an enemy more accountable for their decision to risk the galaxy based on the fact that not doing so meant their immedite extinction right now at this moment.? Everyone is free to decide.  Personally I expected more from the Quarians.  They could have asked me to negotiate peace just like I did with the Turians and Krogan before choosing war.  They did not. 

[silverexile17s]

Mangalores wrote...

Phatose wrote...
...

I'd argue by attacking the Geth, the Quarians have already effectively allied with the Reapers. 

A neutral faction taking actions which serve the Reapers agenda is not a neutral faction any more.  Even if the Geth had not subsequently allied directly with the Reapers, the destruction caused in the Quarian's war would've at least weakened both races, serving the Reaper agenda.

No, they haven't. They pulled a localized conflict into a greater war. The Quarians end up on "your" side because the Geth choose the "Reaper" side.

It's quite frankly a bit mindboggling to turn the reasoning on the head. The Quarians and Geth were neutral to the Reaper threat at the start. The Quarians thought that with the superpowers distracted they can solve their own petty blood feud. Instead they failed and those superpowers got involved. Now those two factions have allied with either side, not before, and from the perspective of the Citadel races the Geth chose the wrong side.

Accusing sovereign entities to be self interested pricks does not make them working for the enemy, however inconvenient their **** ups are. It's inconvenient, it's dumb, it might be immorale and the escalation of the conflict tragic. Neither the Geth or the Quarians however had ever any obligation to you or the Citadel races to do anything so they can annihilate each other and that would be their choice and is their right as sovereign entities.

That they end up on your or the Reaper's side is because you need them in your war, not that they had any obligation to do anything to your liking just because you say so.

Um.... just pointing this out, but the threat presented by the REAPERS is why the quarians went to war. NOT a"petty blood feud." In fact, most of the quarians DIDN'T want to fight. Hell, in ME2, Tali actually says that most quarians resent THEMSELVES for the harsh treatment their ancestors imposed on the geth during the paniced frenzy that caused the Morning War. They only chose to fight now because they thought the geth would never negotaite, and that the geth that attacked the Citadel represented the geth. And that the alternitive to reclaiming Rannoch was to die in space.