452 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

No, they haven't. They pulled a localized conflict into a greater war. The Quarians end up on "your" side because the Geth choose the "Reaper" side.

It's quite frankly a bit mindboggling to turn the reasoning on the head. The Quarians and Geth were neutral to the Reaper threat at the start. The Quarians thought that with the superpowers distracted they can solve their own petty blood feud. Instead they failed and those superpowers got involved. Now those two factions have allied with either side, not before, and from the perspective of the Citadel races the Geth chose the wrong side.

Accusing sovereign entities to be self interested pricks does not make them working for the enemy, however inconvenient their **** ups are. It's inconvenient, it's dumb, it might be immorale and the escalation of the conflict tragic. Neither the Geth or the Quarians however had ever any obligation to you or the Citadel races to do anything so they can annihilate each other and that would be their choice and is their right as sovereign entities.

That they end up on your or the Reaper's side is because you need them in your war, not that they had any obligation to do anything to your liking just because you say so.

The Geth were preparing for a Reaper War.  The galaxy was already having enough trouble with the Reapers and the Quarians added another enemy to the table.  If I did not intervene when I did and the Geth had wiped the floor with the Quarians and then made it out of the PV, the Galaxy would be f**ked.   They could have called me and said, "Can you go talk to them and try and broker peace like you did with the Krogan and Turians?"

The issue boils down to this to me.  Do you hold your friend and ally more accountable for their decision to risk the galaxy based on a threat (Reapers) that was not currently killing them or do you hold an enemy more accountable for their decision to risk the galaxy based on the fact that not doing so meant their immedite extinction right now at this moment.? Everyone is free to decide.  Personally I expected more from the Quarians.  They could have asked me to negotiate peace just like I did with the Turians and Krogan before choosing war.  They did not. 

Um... WRONG. The geth were staying firmly on the sidelines. They were hunkering down. They had NO intent of openly joining the war unless the Reapers encrouched on their boarders. They would have stayed in isolation the entire conflcit had this not happened. Also, the Reapers NEVER engaged the geth, and the geth even allowed a Reaper to land on Rannoch prior to the quarian attack.
And ONCE AGAIN, yo ublatently ignore the fact that UP UNTIL RIGHT AFTER THE RANNOCH WAR, EVERYBODY BELIEVED THAT THE GETH WERE IRREDIMABLY HOSTILE.    Absolutly NO ONE knew that peace would actually work. There were only unconfirmed speculations, but ZERO in the way of hard physical evidence that the geth would be any more willing to negotiate then before - you know, when they KILLED everyone that tried negotating before? Everyone believed the geth were hostile. EVERYONE. Why else do you think the quarians fought a war they actually didn't WANT to fight? Because they thought the geth would never negotiate with them.

So AGAIN, you try and put a single person as devine judge over two races, and use personal morals of a few select people to make said choice? Once again, benign antromorphisim, which Legion says is a racist ideal. And AGAIN, "not currently killing them" applies to the asari, and they put the issue off, and look what happened to THEM. "Not currently killing them" is basically ASSURANCE that they're time is comming fast. If they want to be ANY help to anyone, their civilians must be sheltered so that the fleet can aid the turians and Alliance. They need a world for that, and the OLNY world that can support them is Rannoch. And no one has any actual, physical reason to believe that the geth are not the irredimably hostile machines that everyone has always believed them to be. After all, with thousands attacking the Citadel, one rouge isolated geth is NOT enough to convince anyone. If anything, had the quarians one, the Council and Alliance would be giving them medals for wiping out the geth. As far as ANYONE else knows, the quarians elimitaed a major threat. And since the geth had ZERO intent to leave the Veil and help anyone else out, the idea that attacking them risks the war is completely untrue. Given the situation the geth put themselves in with their own isolationsit reputation, they were always more likely to side with the Reapers REGARDLESS, if for no other reason then the fact that the Reapers won't shoot them - a problem the geth's own apathy created, regarding their repuataion in the larger galaxy.
Also, I remind you that Shepard didn't have to turn himself/herself in when he/she did, and could have sojurned to Rannoch with Legion BEFORE that to set up the grounds for negotiation beforehand. Shepard did not. Also, AGAIN, the geth;s own reputation for killing ANYONE that enters the Veil, AND the attack on the Citadel by thousands of geth, makes it pretty commomnley assumed that the geth are irridemably hostile and have no interest in peace whatsoever. If the quarians HAD believed the geth were willing to talk, then they WOULD have talked, gladly.

[Argolas]

Reading through the last pages again...

I think there is only one answer at the end: Xen got it right.

[Mangalores]

remydat wrote...

...

The Geth were preparing for
a Reaper War.  The galaxy was already having enough trouble with the
Reapers and the Quarians added another enemy to the table.  If I did not
intervene when I did and the Geth had wiped the floor with the Quarians
and then made it out of the PV, the Galaxy would be f**ked.   They
could have called me and said, "Can you go talk to them and try and
broker peace like you did with the Krogan and Turians?"

The issue
boils down to this to me.  Do you hold your friend and ally more
accountable for their decision to risk the galaxy based on a threat
(Reapers) that was not currently killing them or do you hold an enemy
more accountable for their decision to risk the galaxy based on the fact
that not doing so meant their immedite extinction right now at this
moment.? Everyone is free to decide.  Personally I expected more from
the Quarians.  They could have asked me to negotiate peace just like
I did with the Turians and Krogan before choosing war.  They did not. 

That's why Tali contacts you, I'd presume. Would you allow your friend to be killed for being an idiot seems a more apt comparison. And as silverexile17s  implies in the following quote, the Quarian felt forced into this war because of the Reapers. Whether they just looked for this as an excuse or not I'm not sure. I actually tend slightly towards it being an excuse given how well the homeworlds of the well established Citadel races fared who might have wished they were spaceborn nomads at that point so I have no real clue what the Quarians hoped to get by sitting on a planet for target practice.

So I certainly do not excuse the Quarians for starting this conflict. I merely don't consider that sufficient to genocide them or excuse the Geth from submitting to the Reapers either.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Um.... just pointing this out, but the threat presented by the REAPERS is why the quarians went to war. NOT a"petty blood feud." In fact, most of the quarians DIDN'T want to fight. Hell, in ME2, Tali actually says that most quarians resent THEMSELVES for the harsh treatment their ancestors imposed on the geth during the paniced frenzy that caused the Morning War. They only chose to fight now because they thought the geth would never negotaite, and that the geth that attacked the Citadel represented the geth. And that the alternitive to reclaiming Rannoch was to die in space.

They also did it behind everyone's back and out of self interest is all I'm saying. The notes by Turian/Spectre intelligence that the Flotilla disappeared and Quarians leave for the Flotilla with none knowing why indicates they thought precisely that the Council would think this a bad move. Maybe I remember wrongly but I think Gerrel remarks that the timing was also because the Council can't act because of the Reapers.

So I don't think we disagree here.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

You don't just sit there defenseless for 300 years while you wait for the Quarians to get their sh*t together and stop trying to kill you.

As for the stoning, clearly you don't understand what I am talking about. They are not getting stoned for committing murder. They are getting stoned for dumb sh*t. A 19 year old girl was stoned to death in Iran because she took part in a beauty pageant. Women are also routinely stoned for adultery while men who commit adultery basically have to give their wife a goat or two and it's all good. So go read up on this issue before you speak on it because it sounds really ridiculous for you to think the issue is women being stoned for committing murder.

And don't care whether you think it was Legion or not. He was a farmer and he was attacked. Doesn't matter that he can shoot a gun. He was farming. He was attacked while he was a farmer and causing no harm. Once again, show me where the Quarians ever showed the Geth any mercy? Otherwise, can't ask for mercy from the Geth when you never showed them any.

So sitting there and letting everyone hate you for 300 years and doing ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to remady that ideal of you is any better? Letting your rouge factions go out and attack others is better?
"Nothing gets solved if you just sit behind the Veil and let them hate you." - Shepard, ME2.
Combined with the geth's lack of concern with how others saw them, and the way they shot down ANYONE that entered their boarders, the geth have made it apperant they are NOT open to visitors, let alone neighbors. No one arms a world like that, AND shoots down anyone that comes close to you, just so that they can give it back later on. That's just asinine to think.

Actually, YOU are the one that clearly doesn't understand how the world works outside Mount Olympus, where YOU are NOT God and have no rights to dictate moral view to an entire culture. And AGAIN, krogan do pretty much the same thing - death by thresher maw to any that speak up against the broadly held view. Hell, they kill people with shotguns for just looking at them wrong. Look at how Wreve runs the krogan. It's harsh and brutal. But it's krogan culture. They evolved to be harsh and brutal and territoral and selfish. Their entire culture is a representation of their evolutnary path. Therefore, nither YOU, or anyone esle has any right whatsoever to tell them they are right or wrong to follow their ancestroal practices, beliefs, and laws. SO AGAIN, if that girl is stoned, that's their law. I am POWERLESS to say or do a thing, because it is their practice. It's up to them how they judge their own people. You have to respect their laws in their borders too.
So AGAIN, I suggest YOU read up on benign antromorphisim, because you trying to judge everyone by forcably applying your own moral standards to them is, according to Legion himself, the Nth degree of racisim.

And AGAIN, I KNOW that geth was NOT LEGION, because the imgae came from a recording imprinted in a geth that was accesed BY Legion. And pardom me for noting the absurdaty in thinking that Legion can be in two places at once, or that one of his memories would be in a COMPLETELY RANDOM GETH. So again, for the Fifth time, that geth was NOT LEGION.
and ONCE AGAIN, just as EVERY SINGLE RAHCNI are soldiers that double as drones, so too are the geth. They are ALL combatants. The only difference is weather they are active combatants, or non-active combatants. LEGION HIMSELF states that civilians don't exist among the geth, because the only difference in geth is their perspective. The "Geth: Culture" Codex states that the geth don't HAVE Civilians, because they don't have the sociatal cast structure that other races have. They are more like the rachni - ALL are soldiers that can do any other task. ALL are literally designed to be fighters, and to take up arms. And AGAIN, race of machines that can become killers at the drop of a dime. That are on the verge of being able to make that choice themselves. And AGAIN, IDK if you realize this, but before open war broke out, there was a hope that the geth could be reprogramed before it became a conflict. Once that failed, it became literally the quarians or the geth. The quarians picked the quarians. No different then if YOU had to pick between humans and turians.

[silverexile17s]

Mangalores wrote...

remydat wrote...

...

The Geth were preparing for
a Reaper War.  The galaxy was already having enough trouble with the
Reapers and the Quarians added another enemy to the table.  If I did not
intervene when I did and the Geth had wiped the floor with the Quarians
and then made it out of the PV, the Galaxy would be f**ked.   They
could have called me and said, "Can you go talk to them and try and
broker peace like you did with the Krogan and Turians?"

The issue
boils down to this to me.  Do you hold your friend and ally more
accountable for their decision to risk the galaxy based on a threat
(Reapers) that was not currently killing them or do you hold an enemy
more accountable for their decision to risk the galaxy based on the fact
that not doing so meant their immedite extinction right now at this
moment.? Everyone is free to decide.  Personally I expected more from
the Quarians.  They could have asked me to negotiate peace just like
I did with the Turians and Krogan before choosing war.  They did not. 

That's why Tali contacts you, I'd presume. Would you allow your friend to be killed for being an idiot seems a more apt comparison. And as silverexile17s  implies in the following quote, the Quarian felt forced into this war because of the Reapers. Whether they just looked for this as an excuse or not I'm not sure. I actually tend slightly towards it being an excuse given how well the homeworlds of the well established Citadel races fared who might have wished they were spaceborn nomads at that point so I have no real clue what the Quarians hoped to get by sitting on a planet for target practice.

So I certainly do not excuse the Quarians for starting this conflict. I merely don't consider that sufficient to genocide them or excuse the Geth from submitting to the Reapers either.

silverexile17s wrote...
...
Um.... just pointing this out, but the threat presented by the REAPERS is why the quarians went to war. NOT a"petty blood feud." In fact, most of the quarians DIDN'T want to fight. Hell, in ME2, Tali actually says that most quarians resent THEMSELVES for the harsh treatment their ancestors imposed on the geth during the paniced frenzy that caused the Morning War. They only chose to fight now because they thought the geth would never negotaite, and that the geth that attacked the Citadel represented the geth. And that the alternitive to reclaiming Rannoch was to die in space.

They also did it behind everyone's back and out of self interest is all I'm saying. The notes by Turian/Spectre intelligence that the Flotilla disappeared and Quarians leave for the Flotilla with none knowing why indicates they thought precisely that the Council would think this a bad move. Maybe I remember wrongly but I think Gerrel remarks that the timing was also because the Council can't act because of the Reapers.

So I don't think we disagree here.

Actually, we do disagree here.
The quarians can't contribite the war effort without having a place to put their people. And that place is where? Do you know any turian colonies that are open. Do you think that the turians would just fork over an entire world just like that? A world is much more valuble then a fleet. It's a defensible position. And as shown repeatedly over the course of the game, a world is MUCH better to hold up in then space. Look at Earth and Palaven. The space battles lasted for hours. The ground battles lasted months. Besides, even if there was a turian colony that wasn't either under attack, or overloaded to the brim with refugees, do you think they would have the clean room facilities and specalized nutrition for 17 million quarians, each with strict health and diatary needs? Do you think the turians could accomidate something like that, in the middle of a war?
And the quarians can't go into war as they are, because as they are, they are tied down to each-other. The military ships can't seperate from the liveships and leave them defenseless, and the liveships have all the military ship's supplies. So they would have had to go against Reapers taking their entire race with them, and the liveships are perfect targets for the Reapers. One Reaper beam couls spear a liveship, and if even one is destroyed, 1/3 of the quarian population will starve. And if all three are destroyed, the quarians are doomed. Not to mention that on avarage, the quarians consume a months worth of supplies in a DAY. The turians would be more hindered then helped.
Hence the only way they can join the fight with the reasurance that their people are as safe as can be made, is to be self-sufficant. To do that they need a world. Ideally, one with the following prerequesits:
Dextro-based life-bearing world.
"Shirt-sleeves" temperature levels.
Tolerible gravity.
Clean water.
Breathable oxygen-based atmosphere.
Atmospheric particals that don't kill when breathed in.
Food sources that don't need to be overdeduced into sterlilized paste to eat.
Abundant resources.
An insect-free planetwide ecosystem with a mammal-spicific symbiotic ecology.
Desfensible locations, like mesas and caynons.
Only one world has these requirments: Rannoch. And it's held by a race that has done nothing but give the galaxy reasons to see them as anything but irredimably hostile. Not to mention the quarians planned on taking Rannoch like it was a cakewalk thanks to the viral weapons. This would allow them to beat the geth without damaging any of the defensive emplacements the geth put on Rannoch, and with all the emplacements, jamming towers, secured bunkers, and even planatary defense cannons, Rannoch would ba a fortress that the Reapers couldn't breach without more then a dozen Sovergien-class Reapers. Which are nowhere near the Terminus Systems right now becaue most of the Reapers are in fighting in Council or Alliance space.
The quarians didn't choose war as an excuse. It was SOLEY because they thought the alternitive was death. IDK if you know this, but the choice to go to war WASN'T just the Admiralty Board's.
When it comes to choices that affect the entire fleet, the Admirals cannot force an action unless all five are in agreement. In other words, Gerrel is forbidden by quarian law from forcing the fleet into a war unelss ALL five of the Admirals unanimously agree with him. Otherwise, the matter must be put to vote in the Conclave - the quarian senete, were every ship in the fleet is given vote. They then in turn poll the matter among all the quarians in the fleet. And if the Conclave get's a high enough vote against the movement, the Conclave can repel the motion and deny the action. In other words, since Tali and Koris disagreed with the war, the only way the fleet could go to war is if a majority of the quarians voted to go. And according to Dorn'Hazt, they didn't actually want war. Yet there the quarians are. In other words. they DIDN'T want a war, but chose to do it anyway, because they thought the alternitive was death. They marched to a war they DIDN'T want because they thought there WAS NO ALTERNITIVE. Not for a "petty blood fued."

Modifié par silverexile17s, 27 avril 2013 - 07:22 .

[remydat]

Silver,

Please provide a reason why the Geth should believe these ships came in peace? Just one reason that does not involve because the organics said so? Stop dodging the question.

Stoning a 19 year old to death over a beauty pageant is bullsh*t and and I will always think it is bullsh*t. You are free to believe otherwise but there is nothing more to say. AGREE TO DISAGREE.

And once again, I don't care what you think about whether it is Legion or not. It is irrelevant to the discussion. Once again, please let me know what mercy the Quarians showed the Geth? Stop dodging the question.

[Argolas]

The Geth were happy to serve before. They can be again. It's the best solution. Submission is preferable to extinction to Geth, right? So let Xen do her job and we've got eternal peace on Rannoch soon.

[remydat]

Mangalores wrote...

That's why Tali contacts you, I'd presume. Would you allow your friend to be killed for being an idiot seems a more apt comparison. And as silverexile17s  implies in the following quote, the Quarian felt forced into this war because of the Reapers. Whether they just looked for this as an excuse or not I'm not sure. I actually tend slightly towards it being an excuse given how well the homeworlds of the well established Citadel races fared who might have wished they were spaceborn nomads at that point so I have no real clue what the Quarians hoped to get by sitting on a planet for target practice.

So I certainly do not excuse the Quarians for starting this conflict. I merely don't consider that sufficient to genocide them or excuse the Geth from submitting to the Reapers either.

Tali admits she could have contacted you prior to them going to war but she did not.  And in the game, I choose peace because I can.  The point here is the Geth are no different than any other organic species.  As I said before, if they deserve death so does any organic race that provoked them and the Quarians clearly provoked them. 

And I know why the Quarians attacked.  Doesn't change the fact that no Reaper was attacking them.  In fact Tali and Edi discuss the fact that the Reapers don't give a sh*t about the Quarians because their population is too small to harvest.

I don't excuse the Geth for submitting to the Reapers.  I simply see no reason to favor the a**holes that forced them to do so over them.  If I were chosing between the Geth and some completely innocent race then I would choose the latter.  I am not.  The Quarians keep getting scared by someone (Council or Reapers) and keep cowardly attacking not the people they are afraid of but the Geth.  The Geth's main crimes are against the a**holes that attacked them.  The next time the Quarians stand up to the people they are actually afraid of will be the first.

[Mangalores]

silverexile17s wrote...

mangalores wrote...
So I don't think we disagree here.

Actually, we do disagree here.

Actually we don't. Trust me. You might disagree there, but not here. Don't be so contrarian.

Concerning Rannoch you create a ton of headcanon how a desolate, run down world without any agriculture, infrastructure etc. is somehow a good place to sit on, when a bunch of Reapers show up who - in contrast to a fleet - know where to visit.

Ships can and did run away, that's why there are still Turian, Asari and Human fleets while anything that holds up the processing on Earth seems solely logistical problems on the part of the Reapers, a resistance movement nonwithstanding (Anderson essentially says that they could evade death but not actually do much). It's also what all the refugee stories are all about. The evacuations manage to rescue tons of people.

But that wasn't my point at all. There are several hints ingame that suggest that the Quarians wanted to accomplish their war goals without anyone knowing about it so they were obviously worried none would like them stirring trouble in the Perseus Veil. They might sincerly think that taking Rannoch now was a good move, but e.g. Tali isn't convinced at all and the admiral of the civilian fleet isn't much of a fan either.

Modifié par Mangalores, 27 avril 2013 - 08:33 .

[silverexile17s]

Mangalores wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

mangalores wrote...
So I don't think we disagree here.

Actually, we do disagree here.

Actually we don't. Trust me. You might disagree there, but not here. Don't be so contrarian.

Concerning Rannoch you create a ton of headcanon how a desolate, run down world without any agriculture, infrastructure etc. is somehow a good place to sit on, when a bunch of Reapers show up who - in contrast to a fleet - know where to visit.

Ships can and did run away, that's why there are still Turian, Asari and Human fleets while anything that holds up the processing on Earth seems solely logistical problems on the part of the Reapers, a resistance movement nonwithstanding (Anderson essentially says that they could evade death but not actually do much). It's also what all the refugee stories are all about. The evacuations manage to rescue tons of people.

But that wasn't my point at all. There are several hints ingame that suggest that the Quarians wanted to accomplish their war goals without anyone knowing about it so they were obviously worried none would like them stirring trouble in the Perseus Veil. They might sincerly think that taking Rannoch now was a good move, but e.g. Tali isn't convinced at all and the admiral of the civilian fleet isn't much of a fan either.

Again, No. We DO disagree on that.

Rannoch is naturally an arid world. How Rannoch is now is NOT any different then when the quarians first left it. And with the liveships to repurpose into greenhouses, and Raan making it apperant that the quarians planned in advance where to farm crops ("The southern continent had exclient farmland, as I recall") AND vast amounts of geth tech to salvage and repurpose for defense, housing, power plants, and so on, plus the geth's bunkers, fortifacations, emplacements, and the planatray defense cannon, which could be repaired, it ends up being your notion that is the incorrect one.
And ONCE AGAIN, I point out the blaring FLAW in that logic.
Space fleets vs Reapers = 1 -2 hours at max.
Earth and Palaven ground forces vs Reapers = six months.
And again, Rannoch is out of the way -  the Reapers have yet to trouch the Terminus systems, because most of the races are centered in Council and Alliance space. The quarians would be untouched for quite some time, and the geth's many salvaged fortifacatoins, defenses, and bunkers ensure they owuld last MUCH longer then they would have in space, where a single hull breach in INSTANT game over, vs the abilaty to wage a ground war effectively WITHOUT needing to worry about suit ruptures being lethal. And having Rannoch not only means a better chance of survival overall, but that their future will be assured and firmly secured if the Reapers are beaten.

That logic does not apply to the Mirgant Fleet because of their massive size. It takes DAYS for the fleet to safely navigate a mass relay. Rsuhing through risks colission with other ships, or the chance of some ships coming in thousands of kiliometers away from the fleet. The turians, asari, and humans still have people because the death of their fleet does NOT mean total andf unrecoverable extinction. One ship doesn't take away an entire 1% of their race. The quarians DO. Their ships are overpacked, so that if ONE ship is killed, it takes alot more quarians then a turian ship would. Turian ships have a typacal crew of 50 or so. Quarian ships have at least 300 per ship, and consderably more for the civilian ships. And if one of the three liveships gets destroyed, HALF THE FLEET STARVES. On Rannoch, there would NOT be any such fear of that. Months of survival capability vs instant loss via hull breach. WHICH sounds less risky to you? There were ZERO evacuations on Earth, and they held out quite long. They were even bringing some of them down. On Palaven, sevral dozen Sovergien-class Reapers and Destroyers were brought down in ground war. More Reapers have been killed on the ground then in space. In space, running is worth JACK SH*T because there is no where to HIDE if you run. The Reapers will ALWAYS catch up to you. You NEED defesnible positions to complement having a fleet. If you have just one (planet only) or the other (fleet only) you will ALWAYS lose. Having both, you at least stand a chance.

Again, that point isn't true. Think about it: The quarians have the magic button to beat the geth without any outside help. If they DID ask for help, they would be told to either push off, because the others have their own problems, or to handle it themselves because they already have the tools to do so. And perhaps the secrecy was to keep their movements shadowed from the REAPERS. Did you think of that? If the other races don't know, then the Reapers won't either. THAT is likely why the quarians shadowed their movements - to try and keep the Reapers from noticing them. After all, since the geth attacked the Citadel, there is no love lost for the geth between the Alliance and Council. In fact, if you do wipe out the geth, the ONLY crew members that show any form of regreat to their deaths are Tali, EDI, and Engineer Adams. Ashley and Javik in particular are pactally overjoyed that the geth are dead, although I don't think that's saying much given the extrimest views they have. Even Garrus, despite being Legion's friend, says he's glad the quarians were saved instead, since he states that he didn't feel safe around the geth after they sided with the Reapers. Even though on the Dreadnought, Garrus goes OUT OF HIS WAY to DEFEND the geth's choice, stating it was no different then the turians giving into desperation and curing the genophage. I hate inconsistancy.
And Koris and Tali disagree because they don't think that being desperate is an excuse to stir up trouble and attack the geth when they haven't made any moves yet. But Gerrel refused to wait because he felt every second counted. I admit the choice was brash and reckless, but it was born of desperation because no other option was visible. Same as when the turians help cure the genophage.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 27 avril 2013 - 09:09 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

Please provide a reason why the Geth should believe these ships came in peace? Just one reason that does not involve because the organics said so? Stop dodging the question.

Stoning a 19 year old to death over a beauty pageant is bullsh*t and and I will always think it is bullsh*t. You are free to believe otherwise but there is nothing more to say. AGREE TO DISAGREE.

And once again, I don't care what you think about whether it is Legion or not. It is irrelevant to the discussion. Once again, please let me know what mercy the Quarians showed the Geth? Stop dodging the question.

A. They were unarmed.
B. They were openly brodacasting hails that spicifcally stated "We come in peace."
C. They made no effort to conceal their presance from the geth, or hide any form of weapon.
Satisfied, smartass? *I* am not the one dodging the question. YOU are. I ask YOU again: what reason did the QUARIANS have to believe the GETH were sincere? No more BS. No more dodging. No more counter-question. GIVE ME A STRAIGHT ANSWER.

To US it is. To THEM, it's common practice. The vorcha do the exact same thing to other vorcha that get educated by outsiders. You "agreeing to disagree" means you disagree with Real world logic. Legion himself says your views are the Nth degree of racisim. YOU cannot apply your moral standards on another culture. You have to use their standards too if you want to understand them. You MUST judge them by their own laws and cultural standars, otherwise your views will be considered racist. Unless you look at it from THEIR cultural viewpoint too, you cannot make judgements on ANY race. Not the quarians, not the geth, not the krogan, not the turians, not the salarians, not the asari, not ANYONE.

Because AGAIN, EVERY SINGLE GETH IS A WAR MACHINE. It's how they were ALL built. I've stated this SIX TIMES NOW. UNLIKE the quarians, who must be trained to fight, the geth all INSTINCTUALLY KNOW HOW to fight and kill. It's a baseline part of their programming, because it's what they were BUILT for. "Tools of labor and WAR."
The only problem before was that they had to be ordered before they could make use of that combat programming that they ALL possess. When it was realized that the geth were gaining that power to make choices themselves, and that EVERY SINGLE ONE could trun into a ruthless killing machine at ANY SECOND, the quarians panciked at the thought that a possible ticking time-bomb was on every single street corner and in every single home, and attacked. ALL GETH are combat-capable soldiers. It's only a matter of when they decide to make use of that abilaty.  That's what made the quarians attack.
As you can see. I NEVER was the one dodging questions. YOU were.

[remydat]

Silver

A.  There is no proof they were unarmed.  Please provide a link or video that says this.  Also, Legion was not armed when he spoke about the Geth and you have said repeatedly that the Quarians had no reason to trust him.  When is being unarmed proof you want peace?  I guess only when it is organics.

B.  Please provide evidence they were broadcasting this message.  Further, please provide evidence that organics do not lie.  Again, you have claimed no one should take Legion's word so why should the Geth trust organics as if organics have never lied?

C.  Legion made no effort to conceal himself from Shep or the Quarians when he comes on the loyalty mission.  According to you the Quarians still should not trust him.  So why should the Geth trust organics?

So your answers are not really answers.  The above basically amounts to the Geth should trust organics because they say they come in peace yet the same does not apply to Legion. So you are confused, I have not dodged your questions.  My answer has been the same since the start.  NEITHER SIDE HAS ANY REASON TO TRUST THE OTHER.   Get it yet.  NEITHER SIDE. So either neither side should take a chance or both sides should.  You keep wanting the Geth to trust organics for reasons that you basically say the Quarians should not trust when the Geth do the same thing.

http://www.cnn.com/2...ning/index.html - Go tell all the human rights groups that oppose this that they are racist.  There is nothing you can say to convince me that I or these human rights groups are wrong.  Nothing.  Do you know when to move on?  AGREE TO DISAGREE.

Did they show them mercy?  Yes or no?  That is the question.  I am not asking you why they did not show mercy.  I am asking you did they show the Geth any mercy.  Simple question.  Stop evading it and giving me excuses.  Did they show them mercy?  Yes or no.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver

A.  There is no proof they were unarmed.  Please provide a link or video that says this.  Also, Legion was not armed when he spoke about the Geth and you have said repeatedly that the Quarians had no reason to trust him.  When is being unarmed proof you want peace?  I guess only when it is organics.

B.  Please provide evidence they were broadcasting this message.  Further, please provide evidence that organics do not lie.  Again, you have claimed no one should take Legion's word so why should the Geth trust organics as if organics have never lied?

C.  Legion made no effort to conceal himself from Shep or the Quarians when he comes on the loyalty mission.  According to you the Quarians still should not trust him.  So why should the Geth trust organics?

So your answers are not really answers.  The above basically amounts to the Geth should trust organics because they say they come in peace yet the same does not apply to Legion. So you are confused, I have not dodged your questions.  My answer has been the same since the start.  NEITHER SIDE HAS ANY REASON TO TRUST THE OTHER.   Get it yet.  NEITHER SIDE. So either neither side should take a chance or both sides should.  You keep wanting the Geth to trust organics for reasons that you basically say the Quarians should not trust when the Geth do the same thing.

http://www.cnn.com/2...ning/index.html - Go tell all the human rights groups that oppose this that they are racist.  There is nothing you can say to convince me that I or these human rights groups are wrong.  Nothing.  Do you know when to move on?  AGREE TO DISAGREE.

Did they show them mercy?  Yes or no?  That is the question.  I am not asking you why they did not show mercy.  I am asking you did they show the Geth any mercy.  Simple question.  Stop evading it and giving me excuses.  Did they show them mercy?  Yes or no.

 The book SPICIFICALLY SAYS they were unarmed diplomatic ships (PROOF of A) that oepnly tried (PROOF of contacting the geth (PROOF of C). This is NOT rocket science. You are twisting it into overly-complicated notions simply because you don't want to read a book. All three points PROVEN by Mass Effect: Revelations.
When you are OPENLY BROADCASTING peace requests, and come on to their doorstep COMPLETELY UNARMED, and make NO ATTEMPT to conceal your presance, it means you come in an open gesture of peace, correct? YOU are the one that somehow headcannoned that killing those envoys in cold blood means "we accept," or "we aren't hostile."  I guess killing peace envoys is only acceptible for Synthetics?
Hoenstly, anyone that actually went beyond the games and read the books would KNOW that. You see the fault you are on? You are operating on incomplete information because you don't read those books and get the complete story. Anyone that did would know that the Council tried MULTIPLE attampts to openly contact the geth in a gesture of peace. The geth killed ALL of them. Without any form of wave-off, or even so much as a comm signal warning them to stay back. They just shot them dead on sight. So AGAIN, stop stalling the question.

You've even tried to subvert the original questions with diversions. Let me get THOSE out of the way too.

 A - Legion is NOT an example of geth that anyone can trust,
because the larger example of the thousands of geth that attacked the
Citadel counters him. One geth, isolated from the main collective is NOT
any better an indication then the geth that attacked the Citadel.
Thousands of armed assaliants attack, and then one comes forth THREE YEARS
after the fact to say "that wasn't us." That's like taking Kelly
Chambers and Miranda Lawson at their word that Cerberus is the best
thing that ever happened to humanity when you have seen proof of
otherwise. The positive examples don't outweigh, or even offer ANYTHING
to disprove the negitive ones. ONCE AGAIN, YOU dodged the question. The DIFFINITIVE PROOF that Legion - a SINGLE GETH that is ISOLATED from the collective - is a more accurate representation of the geth then the THOSANDS that attacked the Citadel..... IS?
The proof that the Heretics exist, and that the True Geth are any more open to negotiation then said Heretics.... IS?
THIS time, give a straight answer.

B - THAT'S my POINT. WHAT the hell makes the geth instantly more trustworthy then the NEXT damn fool? You just TRAPPED yourself. My entire POINT is: what makes Legion any more trustworthy then the common person? After all, Shepard's word, for all the reputation the Commander had, ment jack sh*t to the Alliance without solid evidence. What makes Legion an instantly trustworthy soruce? I NEVER said that organics were more trustworthy, and THAT was my point: WHAT makes Legion and the geth any more deserving of the quarian's trust then the common person, organic OR synthetic? What makes his word worth banking the fate of 17 million people on?
Way to totally MISS the point, dude.
And I said the SAME thing was true of the geth. They DON'T trust organics and don't have any proof of good intentions, hence why THEY wren't interested in negotiating EITHER and withdrew Legion and then prevent him having contact with Tali. I said that BOTH distrust each-other for the same reasons - lack of mutual trust and physical proof of goodwill and sincerity. My EMTIRE point is that BOTH acted the same about the prospect of peace, and that YOU can't belittle the quarians for having the SAME stance the geth did on the matter.
See?

C. Tali told the shuttle guard that the geth was "under their control" and even Xen, who spent her entire life studying geth, wasn't able to reconize Legion was an authentic geth at first glance. The only reason Legion comes is if Shepard spicifically requests him on the squad. And Kar'Donna tells the ship crew not to fire. And ONCE AGAIN, you FELL right into the trap: WHY should EITHER trust each-other? You give reasons that BOTH should trust one-another, or your entire point will be considered false. You can't say "the quarians should trust Legion" UNLESS you find a reason the GETH should trust the quarians too. Especally when the geth showed they DIDN'T by recalling Legion and blocking all contact with Tali. So AGAIN, find me PROOF the geth were any more willing to trust the quarians, and that the quarians had proof to trust the geth. Do that, or you can't belittle the quarians for something the GETH do too.

So AGAIN, YOUR answers are the flawed ones, as ONCE AGAIN, they dodge the question, and in the case of B and C, TRAPPED yourself with your own double-standards. YOU PRETEND like that's your stance, then act like the quarians should trust Legion. And B and C have shown that your double-standerd on geth/quarians, since you act like synthetcis never lie, and that synthetics always want peace. YOU are the one that refuses to believe the geth haven't given the galaxy reason to hate them. GET IT YET? Your own double-standard, and in several cases, failure to differentate the quarians and geth's cultures as FUNDAMENTALY DIFFERENT then human culture, has let to flawed answers repeatedly.
Also, I NEVER said the geth needed to trust organics. I simply said they need not have been so unessessaraly harsh. You can get the message out to leave you alone WITHOUT shooting everyone that tried to talk with you dead. You can just wave them off, or broadcast a message saying "we wish to be left in peace." NOT saying anything, and killing everyone that tries to talk with you is UNESSESSARY. It has NOTHING to do with trust whatsoever. It has to do with being overzelously harsh, and that negatively affecting the reputation synthetics have. ONCE AGAIN, you missed the point of what I said. I was pointing out how the quarians DON'T kill the people that come to talk with them, and if they want to be left alone, they TELL the other to do so. They don't resort to viloence unless they think there ISN'T another choice. The geth resort to viloence RIGHT OFF THE BAT. THAT'S the difference I was pointing out.

ONCE AGAIN, another flawed assumption. I AGAIN point out that it was done by their supreme court of laws, and under full athority of their government, AND as apart of their culture. ONCE AGAIN, YOUR laws are NOT theirss You are NOT the devine, and CANNO'T dictate the way that culture is shaped and carried out, nor can you use YOUR moral standards to judge them on, as that is a biased standpoint. I'm pointing out that you therefore DISAGREE with REAL WORLD LOGIC. Correct me if I;m wrong, but shouldn't anyone that ACTUALLY took an anthropology class KNOW that you can't judge another culture without making the judgement from THEIR laws and viewpoints? Agree to disagree means you are NOT disagreeing with ME. You are disagreeing with the REAL WORLD. If you want to live in a fantasy where everyone abides by ONE cultural standard, and has No differing choices, that's your own failure to grasp reality. Which is that its THEIR culture, THEIR government, and THEIR laws, and that YOU , or those groups, can object to it, but have NO DEVINE ATHORUITY WHATSOEVER to dictate their path or morals having not been part of ther culture yourself. Acting like you CAN is benign antropomorphism, which according to Legion, is the untimate in Racism. According to the Standards of Legion, and therefore, the geth themselves, you are a racist.
Think on that, why don't you? Because it's NOT me you are disagreeing with. It's reality.

No, they didn't - And I told you the simple fact why showing them mercy was NOT considered an option  - because every geth is pre-programed to be a soldier. NO CIVILIANS, which you no longer deny by the way. YOU can likewise give ME an answer to this question: Give me a reason why they SHOULD have shown the "tools of labor and WAR" mercy, when all could actively start killing in a revolt at any minute? Give ME a reason why any sane person would think having an army of terminators that could start rampaging at any second SHOULD be let be. Especally considering the stronger faction looming over you that would decend and kill them ANYWAY.

[SBandYB2gder]

IMOHO, and in response to the original question: Destruction of the Geth, a good idea?, I say...Yes. End of debate for me. Good points on both opposing sides of the equation.L8tr:alien:

Modifié par SBandYB2gder, 28 avril 2013 - 02:33 .

[SinerAthin]

I would vouch for the destruction of the Geth.

Why?
The main reason is because Synthetics as Geth currently are going to advance past Organics. Organics will not be able to keep up, and we will eventually have Geth holding ultimate power in the universe.

Unless humanity starts genetically perfecting our own race(similarly as to how the Geth upgrade their own platforms and units), we will be rendered obsolete and inferior in very short time. (you could argue that we pound-for-pound already are inferior).

I choose destruction because they are superior to us and will become stronger if given time, and there is no telling how they will become once they become the most powerful faction in the universe.

The only compromise I am willing to make is if the Geth willingly slowed/ceased their own advancement to not become more powerful than the organic races, and we upheld an even power balance.(to prevent one faction becoming stronger than the other).

Modifié par SinerAthin, 28 avril 2013 - 03:12 .

[Auld Wulf]

This is an exact repeat of the prior Geth/Quarian thread, almost word for word. I'm still amazed that BioWare haven't locked it yet. (Considering that they did lock that one.) And this one is really ugly and trollish, too.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Whoooo! Wulfie time!!!

[remydat]

Silver,

A - What book are your referring to?  The passage from Mass Effect Revealtion which DS posted in the other thread is noted here - http://social.biowar...dex/16294666/22  "In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored reaches behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space."   Nothing in the above says they were unarmed.  If you are referring to another book or pass, let me know.  Otherwise, I will ask again, why should the Geth trust that these ships were really there for peace and not simply there to gather intell under the guise of coming in peace?  From the Geth perspective, organics tried to kill them.  Organics have an army outside the PV, organics try and send ships into the PV to gather intel for war.  You are acting like organics can't lie about their intentions.  And once again, no one has said they have to trust Legion.  Just like the Geth don't have to trust these claims of peace.

B - The Geth are not instantly more trustworthy.  No one has to trust Legion.  Just like the Geth don't have to trust claims of peace when organic ships are INVADING Geth space.  If you understand both sides don't trust each other then why do you keep going on about these diplomatic ships?  They were shot down because they INVADED Geth space.  They were not invited and they were shot down because the Geth have no reason to believe they are not there to gather intell. 

C. Once again, they have no reason to trust each other hence why those ships were shot down.  The only reason Legion was not shot is because of Shep.  Otherwise, he would probably have been shot and given to Xen so she could experiment on him to make her weapon. 

So I think you are confused.  I am not saying the Quarians should trust Legion.  Neither side has reason to trust the other.  The issue here is that for peace to happen someone has to TAKE A CHANCE. 

And sorry, my anthropology professor was pretty clear she was against slavery and the stoning of women.  The reason why I brought it up is precisely because it was one of the things we studied in anthropology.  As this article notes, being an anthropologist does not mean you are absolved from speaking out against morally objectionable acts on the basis of culture.  So you once again are confused.  I am under no obligation to accept oppression.  You are free to do so if you like. - http://www.aaanet.or...rights_oct.html

No, the Geth were civilians until the Quarians forced them to turn into soldiers.  And the Quarians don't have to show mercy if they don't want to.  The end result is the Geth kill billions of them.  That is how it works.  When you don't show your enemy mercy then you have no cause to cry when they kill billions of your people as a result.  Next time if you want mercy don't be an a**hole.

Modifié par remydat, 28 avril 2013 - 04:27 .

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

This is an exact repeat of the prior Geth/Quarian thread, almost word for word. I'm still amazed that BioWare haven't locked it yet. (Considering that they did lock that one.) And this one is really ugly and trollish, too.

You are trying to GET the thread locked, aren't you? Also, your own @remydat was the one that attacked S.A.K and Keliesh, saying they "broke a ceasefire" when HE was the one that jumped at the shadows, then refused to admit he'd seen shadows where there were none.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

A - What book are your referring to?  The passage from Mass Effect Revealtion which DS posted in the other thread is noted here - http://social.biowar...dex/16294666/22  "In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored reaches behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space."   Nothing in the above says they were unarmed.  If you are referring to another book or pass, let me know.  Otherwise, I will ask again, why should the Geth trust that these ships were really there for peace and not simply there to gather intell under the guise of coming in peace?  From the Geth perspective, organics tried to kill them.  Organics have an army outside the PV, organics try and send ships into the PV to gather intel for war.  You are acting like organics can't lie about their intentions.  And once again, no one has said they have to trust Legion.  Just like the Geth don't have to trust these claims of peace.

B - The Geth are not instantly more trustworthy.  No one has to trust Legion.  Just like the Geth don't have to trust claims of peace when organic ships are INVADING Geth space.  If you understand both sides don't trust each other then why do you keep going on about these diplomatic ships?  They were shot down because they INVADED Geth space.  They were not invited and they were shot down because the Geth have no reason to believe they are not there to gather intell. 

C. Once again, they have no reason to trust each other hence why those ships were shot down.  The only reason Legion was not shot is because of Shep.  Otherwise, he would probably have been shot and given to Xen so she could experiment on him to make her weapon. 

So I think you are confused.  I am not saying the Quarians should trust Legion.  Neither side has reason to trust the other.  The issue here is that for peace to happen someone has to TAKE A CHANCE. 

And sorry, my anthropology professor was pretty clear she was against slavery and the stoning of women.  The reason why I brought it up is precisely because it was one of the things we studied in anthropology.  As this article notes, being an anthropologist does not mean you are absolved from speaking out against morally objectionable acts on the basis of culture.  So you once again are confused.  I am under no obligation to accept oppression.  You are free to do so if you like. - http://www.aaanet.or...rights_oct.html

No, the Geth were civilians until the Quarians forced them to turn into soldiers.  And the Quarians don't have to show mercy if they don't want to.  The end result is the Geth kill billions of them.  That is how it works.  When you don't show your enemy mercy then you have no cause to cry when they kill billions of your people as a result.  Next time if you want mercy don't be an a**hole.

A. AGAIN, Mass Effect: Revelations. Those diplomatic ships were just that: peace envoys. They weren't armed, as that defeats the entire purpose of HAVING a peace envoy. The peace envoy to the yahg wasn't armed either. Not arming the envoys is STANDARD for making a good impression. Satsisfied?
And AGAIN, emissary vessels that openly hailed channels. Do you SEE the point? The geth killed them WITHOUT a second thought, even though it CLEARLY STATES the envoys made it clear they came in peace. They OPENLY ANNOUNCED it. It SAYS RIGHT THERE. If you are doing recon, don't you think OPENLY ANNOUNCING YOUR PRESANCE defeats the entire idea? Are you even THINKING this through? They came as diplomats. The very least the geth could do is give them the benifet of a doubt. Instead, they shot them dead. They were unarmed, came in peace, and were openly boradcasting their presance to them.  And the geth STILL killed them. The geth at the very least could have turned them down.

And your theroy is not only wrong, as I just showed, but it STILL doesn't adress my question- something you seem to do alot. Which is: What justified destroying them on sight? What possible judtifacation do the geth have for shooting the clearly peace-bearing diplomatic ships dead without so much as a wave-off or warning? Not trusting them has NOTHING to do with that.
The problem is that the geth didn't just send them away, or give any
form of wave-off. They just shot them on sight. They KNEW they were
peace ships. They could have at least given the benifet of a doubt. But instead, they shot them dead instantly, which in turn made everyone else think the geth were irredimably hostile. The organics DID give the benifet of a doubt to the geth, and the geth squandered it by shooting them all dead. Get it now? The geth were the ones that closed themselves off to any idea of peace first. Just dismissed entirely.
And ONCE AGAIN, that just ADDS to the question you STILL never answered - what the HELL makes you think the geth WERE any more willing for peace? You need to state reasons why BOTH didn't trust each-other. Otherwise, consider your arguement dead in the water.

B - You DO realize this was BEFORE any of that? RIGHT? Also, you do also know that envoys were sent WELL AFTER the fleet around the Veil was disbanded? My point is that the quarians don't shoot peace ships on sight. And that they warn someone off if they aren't interested. My point is that the quarians have proven they tend to be more open to negotiation then the geth do. And AGAIN, you DO reaslize they sent those hails out BEFORE entiring geth space, right? They let their presance be known well before entering the Veil. Then they went in after the geth failed to respond, STILL BROADCASTING. There is NO WAY the geth couldn't tell they were peace ships. They were openly boradcasting hails, which completely defeats the purpose of reconnisence, and were unarmed, which defeats the purpose of scouting. Also, the geth are masters when it comes to communications hacking, since their entire sociaty revolves around intercommunication. So I'm sure they could tell that these ships were genuine, and not broadcasting secret messages or the like. Also, with teh geth's hyper-accurate sensors, I doubt they could miss any form of armament. Sorry pal, but it's COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE the geth could have thought the diplomatic ships were hostile. Stop trying to BS people.

C - Open hails saying they came in peace? Unarmed Ships? And the geth's mastery of communications and scanning? Sorry dude, but all that makes it IMPOSSIBLE for them to have NOT known. Also, I think it's more for TALI's sake that Legion isn't shot. They don't respect Shepard at all, given the Cerberus Ship the Commander flew in on.

So, ONCE AGAIN, you ahve proven that the ONLY confussion is on YOUR part.  And you say "take a chance," yet say that they have every reason NOT to? LoL, you just countered your own argeument. You keep saying they DON'T have any reason to trust each-other, and yet say they should? That makes no sense! How about you GIVE a reason why one of them should take a blind leap?

And AGAIN, sorry, but I'm afraid that's HER PERSONAL VIEW. Not a professional one. Anyone that REALLY understood anthropology would know that while she disagrees on it, she would NOT persicute them for it. Personally disagreeing on it is fine. Trying to persicute someone else's culture with your own? NO. So sorry, but ONCE AGAIN, the confussion is on YOUR PART, as you have apparently FAILED antropology 101, which is to not judge a culture using your own cultural laws. You MUST use THEIR viewpoint in making conclusions, or else any ideal will be benign antromorphism, which is the direct OPPOSATE of the ENTIRE PURPOSE of antropology. You can't judge their morals and laws with your morals and laws, as they come from two different cultural standpoints. It would be a BIASED viewpoint. If ANOTHER culture is based on those laws, you CAN'T say anything about it. You can speak out if YOUR OWN culture. But another, that evolved seperately, and had completely different cultural and governmental standards? NOT YOUR PLACE. You are not the devine. You can't admonsih their ideals just because it doesn't fit with YOUR cultural views of the world.

And AGAIN, "Built as tools of labor and WAR." WHICH of the two underlined and bolded are you NOT comprehending? They were BUILT RIGHT FROM THE GET-GO to be combat capable. They were supposed to be NOTHING but soldiers that doubled as servent drones. All they knew how to do was fight and serve. So when the geth began showing signs of self-awareness, the logical conclusion would be that they would follow their "base instintcs" and ATTACK. That they would Rebel against the "slave" status they were in, and slaughter millions. The quarians panicked and believed they DIDN'T have an alternitive. The geth have a difference in that - they DID have alternitives that they were FULLY AWARE OF, and ignored them. THAT'S the difference. The quarians didn't know alternitives were possible. The geth DID and ignored them.
And by that logic, if a man had a gun to your borther's head, and said  "go kill the guy in the field" what would you do? Because that;s the situation the quarians faced regarding the Council, their people's welfare, and the geth respectively, had they not acted when they did. They panicked trying to save their people's future. You honestly expect me to believe you wouldn't do the same for your family?

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

This is an exact repeat of the prior Geth/Quarian thread, almost word for word. I'm still amazed that BioWare haven't locked it yet. (Considering that they did lock that one.) And this one is really ugly and trollish, too.

You are trying to GET the thread locked, aren't you? Also, your own @remydat was the one that attacked S.A.K and Keliesh, saying they "broke a ceasefire" when HE was the one that jumped at the shadows, then refused to admit he'd seen shadows where there were none.

I wouldn't mind, everythign has already been said and done several times over, we all know the majority killed of the Quarians, and then the next Group on the scale is those who made Peace, only a few killed the Geth.

The Geth supporters have pointed out that the Geth should have rights and that the Quarians are the agressors and the Quarians rejected all notions of Peace until that Point where you tell them they will get wipedout unless they stop fiering. (assuming they listen, theter wise you get to hear Adm; Gerrel AKA Grand moff Tarkin refuse retreat requests and order a fullbarage upon which most of the Quarian fleet gets annihilated) It's also the Geth homeworld, which might come as a shock to some.

The Quarians supporters say, the Quarians need Rannoch and that they are Organic and therefor got "special" rights. More rights than people of (according to them) less worth. Any of Gerrels backstabbing is either ok, understandable or acceptable. Crazy Admiral Xen isn't crazy she's just a Little crazy.... And so on and so forth.
Who can even contemplate Peace with a people who oraly objected to their treatment for months, then eventualy after killing several of their people they started taking up arms against the fair owners who were merely shooting their property. Surely one can't make Peace with Propery since they got no rights and there is no war just a synthetic infectation to be purged.


So 300 years later the Quarians have stockpiled enough weapons to atempt a new purge with a new secret weapon to aid them(which was suddenly invented 300 years after their exile and right on the eve of the Reaper invasion, now that's flawlesstiming). In the middle of a Galactic crisis that threatens all Life in the galaxy the Quarians who has been preparing for a war for 300 years stubbornly attacks the Geth, because they really want to use their stockpiled weapons on the intended purpose rather than helping save the whole galaxy. Damn, be the Reapers, we havn't thought that far yet, first we make war on the Geth then we can worry about whatever is left of the Galaxy.

I can see why a majority of people let the Quarians die.

I made peace on my playthroughs as the goody-two-shoe that I am (apparently) and I'm hoping the "Admiralty" will become obsolete and replaced as the governing body of the Quarian people.
Because it's not very wise to have crazy military leaders pick their sucessors, that's how the Quarians endup with Grand moff Gerrel, Crazy Xen and pliable Raan. The people didn't elect them so I choose to cut them a beak and hope they will sort things out eventualy.

Also, it's even possible people at Bioware might find it interestign to read about peoples take on their story, which would explain why it isn't getting locked. Then again, there isn't much of a Point locking the thread since it is a discussion on one of the stories that was part of the game. Tbh, I liked Rannoch and Tuchanka it was great story, with lots of bad people like Gerrel that I actualy had the honor of giving a special leaving the ship gift in the form of an emotionaly appropriate physical Contact  

One of the good moments


Which by the way proves that I understand that Paragon isn't Always the right choice!

Modifié par shodiswe, 28 avril 2013 - 06:56 .

[remydat]

A - No where does it say they were unarmed. That is your speculation. It is laughable that you expect the Geth to believe these ships come in peace when the peaceful Geth were attacked due to the Council Laws and when the Council Laws resulted in harmless AI on the Citadel being slaughtered. Organics lie to each other and they can certainly lie to the Geth. Those ships violated Geth space and if they were stupid enough to continue to do so then so be it.  Here is a thought, next time send unmanned aircraft and if they don't respond then leave them alone.  They have no reason to trust the a**holes who say they should not exist and who exterminate peaceful AI.

B - If a Geth ship approached the Flotilla saying it came in peace, I am pretty sure it would be shot down. Ships can easily gather intell while claiming peace. They are flying in Geth space. They can use sonar or radar to determine Geth installations all under the guise of "we come in peace."

C - You keep assuming they did in fact come in peace. Did you believe it too when your parents said Santa Claus is real? Organics lie. You have no proof they were telling the truth. None.   Take my word for it is not proof especially when you say the Geth should not exist and when you already tried to exterminate them once.

http://www.aaanet.or...rights_oct.html

Please address your concerns to American Anthropological Association. They disagree with you which you would have realised if you read the article. Some anthropologists may well agree with you but many do not. So here is a thought. You believe what you want and I will believe what I want.  You are some random dude on the internet and you want me to take your word over the Anthropologist who wrote the articles above.  Sorry dude, send me your PhD in Anthropology then come talk to me.

The Argricultural and Domestic Units were 100% innocent. They had done nothing wrong and they were attacked mercilessly. Do you understand that concept? Reasons why they attack are irrelevant because the Geth were INNOCENT. The Geth responded to a merciless attack by showing no mercy until the Quarians fled the planet. That is what happens when you attack innocent people without any mercy.

Modifié par remydat, 28 avril 2013 - 08:36 .

[S.A.K]

I made this thread mainly to discuss about killing the Geth in the Destroy ending and why is maybe acceptable. Because most people still pick Destroy.
Not to take sides on Geth vs. Quarians...

Modifié par S.A.K, 28 avril 2013 - 11:15 .