I made this thread mainly to discuss about killing the Geth in the Destroy ending and why is maybe acceptable. Because most people still pick Destroy. Not to take sides on Geth vs. Quarians...
Remy and Silver's last thread about GvQ got shut down because they were the only ones posting so I think they moved their argument over here (There was something crazy like 1000 posts between them).
As for the topic. I think no matter how you look at it, if you believe the Catalyst, the destruction of the Geth is a good thing. And even if you don't, it is the safest thing.
For one, lets say you believe the destruction of the Geth only proves that organics and synthetics are destined to destroy one another. All well and good, but that means you are accepting the catalyst's logic, which means conflict with the Geth would have been innevitable. If it is innevitable, the quick destruction of the Geth saves you a costly war down the line, and you have more time to prepare for the next synthetic uprising. After all, the catalyst witnessed countless synthetic rebels with none to prove him wrong, what makes the geth so special? Reaper code? the reapers are perpetrators of rebellion themselves! If you believe the catalyst, but still want the reapers gone, you should consider it a favor that he destroys the Geth.
Now lets say you reject the catalyst's logic like I do. The Geth are frankly scary. With organics, we are all at the same basic level of brainpower, and we can rely on traditional practices of deterrence and rules of warfare to avoid conflict. Even when it does come to war, all organics in the MEU have shown the capacity for emotions such as pity, mercy, and sympathy. The Geth are shown to be devoid of these things, or at the very least not channel them in the way organics do. They advance quicker, and can produce faster than organics, and should conflict ever arise, we do not fully understand their capacity to wage war.
When they considered the Quarians to be a threat to their existence, they waged a war of extinction, stopped only by a math problem, and should you side with them over the Quarians, they have apparently resolved that dilemma as they finish the job. Any future conflict with the Geth therefore would likely be one of immense cost, possibly extinction. They have shown the capacity to make a truce when there is a mutual threat, but that is only when Legion is alive. If Legion was never alive, you should be obligated to destroy the Geth as they are the greatest threat to the future after the Reapers.
If Legion was allowed to transfer his experiences, you still face a great threat. We do not fully understand why the Geth agreed to a ceasefire with the Quarians this time and not when they destroyed the civilians during the Morning War. And the Legion Geth still destroy the Quarians if they do not stand down. What would happen in the future if the Turians and Geth ever came to blows? No Turian is a civilian, and you could expect the Geth to respond as such, and such a case would lead to a costly war.
Unlike the Geth, organic governments and ideas change over time, in the grand scheme of things, it is innevitable for the Geth and an organic species to come to blows, and Geth reaction could doom the galaxy. If they are destroyed, as in the Destroy ending, it rids the galaxy of a grave threat. It is regrettable, as they had shown the capacity for cooperation, but in the long run there are just too many variables against permanent peace, and the costs of a war are too grim to imagine.
mangalores wrote... So I don't think we disagree here.
Actually, we do disagree here.
Actually we don't. Trust me. You might disagree there, but not here. Don't be so contrarian.
Concerning Rannoch you create a ton of headcanon how a desolate, run down world without any agriculture, infrastructure etc. is somehow a good place to sit on, when a bunch of Reapers show up who - in contrast to a fleet - know where to visit.
Ships can and did run away, that's why there are still Turian, Asari and Human fleets while anything that holds up the processing on Earth seems solely logistical problems on the part of the Reapers, a resistance movement nonwithstanding (Anderson essentially says that they could evade death but not actually do much). It's also what all the refugee stories are all about. The evacuations manage to rescue tons of people.
But that wasn't my point at all. There are several hints ingame that suggest that the Quarians wanted to accomplish their war goals without anyone knowing about it so they were obviously worried none would like them stirring trouble in the Perseus Veil. They might sincerly think that taking Rannoch now was a good move, but e.g. Tali isn't convinced at all and the admiral of the civilian fleet isn't much of a fan either.
Again, No. We DO disagree on that. ...
Why are you so insistent about that when you solely argue about how worthwhile Rannoch is? Okay, a 300 year old ruin without any infrastructure for organics is a fantastic place to land your ships on. Doesn't change my actual reasoning which isn't focussed or reliant on that.
I said there are various in game indications the Quarians driven or not exploited the situation. You admit that Koris and Tali think the same. Case closed.
Did the Quarians not wage a war of extinction as well? Twice in fact. Or are wars of extinction ok so long as it is organics waging it? Do the Quarians also kill the Geth not when they refuse to stand down but when they attempt to flee? Guess shooting back at people who shoot at you is bad if you are a synthetic but shooting people in the back when they try and flee is good if you are an organic. Didn't the Asari, Turians, and Salarians kill billions of civilian babies with the genophage? Might as well kill them too. Or nevermind, they are organic so that's cool too. They are allowed to kill civilian babies to save themselves.
Did the Quarians not wage a war of extinction as well? Twice in fact. Or are wars of extinction ok so long as it is organics waging it? Do the Quarians also kill the Geth not when they refuse to stand down but when they attempt to flee? Guess shooting back at people who shoot at you is bad if you are a synthetic but shooting people in the back when they try and flee is good if you are an organic. Didn't the Asari, Turians, and Salarians kill billions of civilian babies with the genophage? Might as well kill them too. Or nevermind, they are organic so that's cool too. They are allowed to kill civilian babies to save themselves.
Not the point. It is simply safer that the Geth be destroyed. The Quarians waged a war of extinction against the Geth, but they have never threatened another organic species, nor did many view the Geth as a legitimate form of life when they fought said war (such perceptions changed after the MW, and the Quarians in ME3 simply wanted their homeworld back at any cost). The Krogan and Turians waged a war of agression against eachother, but never did it go to a full blown war of extinction. Granted they cared nothing for civilian casualties, but at no point did the war become one of total annihilation. As for the Genophage, again, it is a terrible war crime, but the reasoning behind it is totally understandable and capable for organics to comprehend.
The Geth have shown the capacity and willingness to wage a war of total annihilation against organic life. Their conditions for applying such a total war scenario are alien to us organics, and therefore make them an unstable factor in the galaxy. Their distinction between civilian and legitimate target is not the same as ours, neither are their victory parameters. The precedent of the heretics has shown us that some Geth are capable of deeming ALL organic life an obstacle to their wellbeing, not just their survival. We can not understand their reasoning, and all it would take is them to deem organics a threat to their existence or progress, and nothing like morality will stop them from mercilessly eradicating us.
The Quarians war of extinction threatened the galaxy. It turned a peaceful synthetic race hostile post MW and their attack in ME3 gave the Reapers a powerful ally. Further when the Geth flee Rannoch, the Quarians have their homeworld. If retaking the homeworld was the sole goal then they have won. However, instead of letting the Geth flee like the Geth did to the Quarians during the MW, Gherel orders the fleeing Geth exterminated.
Also, the Council has deemed all synthetic life an obstacle to their well being. That is why laws say they should not exist. Did you miss that peaceful AI race being exterminated in the Citadel Archives or the peaceful Geth being attacked in part because of the Council Laws and because the Quarians thought they were a threat to their well being despite the Geth doing nothing but serving them?
All it took is organics deeming synthetics a threat to their existence or progress and nothing like morality stopped them from mercilessly eradicating them. The irony in your position is it's logic organics have already applied against synthetics. I know why the Geth do what they do. Organics are douchebags to synthetics and the Geth respond by assuming the douchebags have a problem with their programming. The solution is simple. Stop being douchebags to synthetics.
But hey, maybe I am judging organics too harshly. Shep is a decent guy right? That is why he would never just kill synthetics arbitrarily to protect organics. Oh wait, 60-80% of players chose destroy, lol.
The Quarians war of extinction threatened the galaxy. It turned a peaceful synthetic race hostile post MW and their attack in ME3 gave the Reapers a powerful ally. Further when the Geth flee Rannoch, the Quarians have their homeworld. If retaking the homeworld was the sole goal then they have won. However, instead of letting the Geth flee like the Geth did to the Quarians during the MW, Gherel orders the fleeing Geth exterminated.
Also, the Council has deemed all synthetic life an obstacle to their well being. That is why laws say they should not exist. Did you miss that peaceful AI race being exterminated in the Citadel Archives or the peaceful Geth being attacked in part because of the Council Laws and because the Quarians thought they were a threat to their well being despite the Geth doing nothing but serving them?
All it took is organics deeming synthetics a threat to their existence or progress and nothing like morality stopped them from mercilessly eradicating them. The irony in your position is it's logic organics have already applied against synthetics. I know why the Geth do what they do. Organics are douchebags to synthetics and the Geth respond by assuming the douchebags have a problem with their programming. The solution is simple. Stop being douchebags to synthetics.
Exactly, organics are moody douchebags, which gets us in trouble with cold, logical synthetics. This is why peace will never last, since peace has never lasted when it comes to organics. Eventually, there will be a generation of Turian, Humans, Elcor, whatever, that gets a little warmongery/entitled and ****** off the synthetics. From experience, the synthetic response is absolute. This threatens all organic life, where as organics know how organics wage war, we do not fully comprehend the synthetic way. From every single intereaction with synthetics, from the Geth, the the Prothean synthetics, to the mythical countless generations the catalyst mentions, it seems that conflict is the norm, and that synthetics are in it for the total annihilation.
The reasons for the synthetic response is a non-issue. The Geth have seemingly understandable reasons for destroying the Quarians when looking at it from a cold logical perspective. That doesn't negate the fact that they were all too willing to wipe out an organic race, and eventually ally with the Reapers. And don't get me started with the heretics. Who without any direct provocation from the rest ofthe galaxy deemed organics an obstacle to their advancement when the reaper offered. History has shown that when synthetics go to war, they go to war to wipe out a threat, and that threat has traditionally been organics. With the Geth alive, a repeat of this conflict is all too possible, and from the statistics, innevitable.
That is not to say their destruction in the destroy ending is a good thing, morally speaking. It is actually quite regrettable that you need to sacrifice an entire allied species to destroy the greatest threat of the moment. Their passing should be mourned, as they were a legitimate lifeform that helped you. Yet that does not mean that their death is not fortunate in the long run, where all indications point to them being the next great threat to organic life.
The Geth stop at the end of the MW and when you choose peace, the Geth are completely capable of wiping out the Quarians with the RC and killing Shep for good measure. Do they? No.
So explain to me why the synthetics who have refrained from wiping out their enemy twice when they were completely capable of doing so are the bad guys here and not the organics who started the conflict and who have only ever tried to wipe out synthetics completely.
You basically want to punish the victims because organics fear and/or hate them. Here is a thought. If an organic race tries to pick a fight with synthetics, why don't the other organics stop them just like people wanted the True Geth to stop the synthetics? Why don't organics, you know the guys who have been living and evolving for millions of years lead by example and stop tolerating unprovoked attacks on synthetics?
Look, I understand what you are saying. I just have a serious problem with punishing someone because others refuse to stop hating/fearing them simply because their existence is deemed to be a threat. There is no way I can accept that under any circumstances. And I can't help but think that if the Geth were fleshy organics, few people would tolerate it as well.
The Geth stop at the end of the MW and when you choose peace, the Geth are completely capable of wiping out the Quarians with the RC and killing Shep for good measure. Do they? No.
So explain to me why the synthetics who have refrained from wiping out their enemy twice when they were completely capable of doing so are the bad guys here and not the organics who started the conflict and who have only ever tried to wipe out synthetics completely.
You basically want to punish the victims because organics fear and/or hate them. Here is a thought. If an organic race tries to pick a fight with synthetics, why don't the other organics stop them just like people wanted the True Geth to stop the synthetics? Why don't organics, you know the guys who have been living and evolving for millions of years lead by example and stop tolerating unprovoked attacks on synthetics?
Organics are not monolithic like the Geth. You can have a generation or two of perfectly peaceful Organics who want nothing more than to frolic in the fields with their Geth BFF's. The problem is over time ideas change. The synthetics may not be the bad guys, but the Organics have just as much a right to see the next day as the Geth.
It is practically canon that it is the Organics who usually start ****, but it is 9 times out of 10 the synthetics who finish it. The Geth proved an anomaly by coding error once, and 1/3 times defy the trend again. Is it permanent? Who knows, but since the topic is about whether this is a good thing they are destroyed, I would have to say the odds favor "yes". Organics will never get their act together. We are the chaos to their order, and since the default setting on synthetics is total war, I would say organics are better of without them security wise. Not to mention what happens when the heretics pop up again. The Geth are so dangerous that all it would take is a serious revival of the heretic way of thinking, and all organic life is in danger.
The Geth are not monolithic especially with the Reaper Code where they are now individuals. Legion rebelled against the Geth who chose the Reapers.
If someone commits a hate crime, I don't respect their right to see the next day above the victim of said hate crime. If an organic race attacks synthetics unprovoked then they should be punished like any criminal. That is how you show everyone that the laws of the galaxy apply to synthetic and organic alike.
And the default setting isn't total war. It was not total war after the MW and it was not total war when they get the RC and refrained from exterminating the Quarians when they could have easily done so. The Geth learned total war from the Quarians who employed it against them. They can learn not to be total war douchebags like the Quarians thru other organic races showing that they don't tolerate that stuff just like Shep shows to Legion.
This is an exact repeat of the prior Geth/Quarian thread, almost word for word. I'm still amazed that BioWare haven't locked it yet. (Considering that they did lock that one.) And this one is really ugly and trollish, too.
You are trying to GET the thread locked, aren't you? Also, your own @remydat was the one that attacked S.A.K and Keliesh, saying they "broke a ceasefire" when HE was the one that jumped at the shadows, then refused to admit he'd seen shadows where there were none.
I wouldn't mind, everythign has already been said and done several times over, we all know the majority killed of the Quarians, and then the next Group on the scale is those who made Peace, only a few killed the Geth.
The Geth supporters have pointed out that the Geth should have rights and that the Quarians are the agressors and the Quarians rejected all notions of Peace until that Point where you tell them they will get wipedout unless they stop fiering. (assuming they listen, theter wise you get to hear Adm; Gerrel AKA Grand moff Tarkin refuse retreat requests and order a fullbarage upon which most of the Quarian fleet gets annihilated) It's also the Geth homeworld, which might come as a shock to some.
The Quarians supporters say, the Quarians need Rannoch and that they are Organic and therefor got "special" rights. More rights than people of (according to them) less worth. Any of Gerrels backstabbing is either ok, understandable or acceptable. Crazy Admiral Xen isn't crazy she's just a Little crazy.... And so on and so forth. Who can even contemplate Peace with a people who oraly objected to their treatment for months, then eventualy after killing several of their people they started taking up arms against the fair owners who were merely shooting their property. Surely one can't make Peace with Propery since they got no rights and there is no war just a synthetic infectation to be purged.
So 300 years later the Quarians have stockpiled enough weapons to atempt a new purge with a new secret weapon to aid them(which was suddenly invented 300 years after their exile and right on the eve of the Reaper invasion, now that's flawlesstiming). In the middle of a Galactic crisis that threatens all Life in the galaxy the Quarians who has been preparing for a war for 300 years stubbornly attacks the Geth, because they really want to use their stockpiled weapons on the intended purpose rather than helping save the whole galaxy. Damn, be the Reapers, we havn't thought that far yet, first we make war on the Geth then we can worry about whatever is left of the Galaxy.
I can see why a majority of people let the Quarians die.
I made peace on my playthroughs as the goody-two-shoe that I am (apparently) and I'm hoping the "Admiralty" will become obsolete and replaced as the governing body of the Quarian people. Because it's not very wise to have crazy military leaders pick their sucessors, that's how the Quarians endup with Grand moff Gerrel, Crazy Xen and pliable Raan. The people didn't elect them so I choose to cut them a beak and hope they will sort things out eventualy.
Also, it's even possible people at Bioware might find it interestign to read about peoples take on their story, which would explain why it isn't getting locked. Then again, there isn't much of a Point locking the thread since it is a discussion on one of the stories that was part of the game. Tbh, I liked Rannoch and Tuchanka it was great story, with lots of bad people like Gerrel that I actualy had the honor of giving a special leaving the ship gift in the form of an emotionaly appropriate physical Contact
One of the good moments
Which by the way proves that I understand that Paragon isn't Always the right choice!
You DO realize the geth spared NO ONE out of goodwill in the Morning War? They let them go because of the failure to calculate the mathmatical reprecussions of genocide. Otherwsie, they WOULD have finished the purge then and there.
Also, DYING when breathing any air but Rannoch seems to count as "special needs" pretty diffinitively. Having your ENTIRE FUTURE depend on one world is PRETTY DAMN IMPORTANT. Just like the Hanar need Kajhe. Or the Volus need Irune. Specialized life is NOT an uncommon occouracnce. The volus need ammonia-based worlds with light gravity, or they die instantly. Hanar hardly have any colonies outside their homeworld. Drell require arid temperaturs at ALL times, or else they run the risk of developing Kepral's syndrome. The Elcor are native to high-gravity worlds. The turians need dextro-based worlds to colonize on. The asari have become culturally dependant on mating with aliens. The salarians need jungle worlds for making stable egg-clutches. All this, ALL these faults and requirements that the individual galactic races need, And you fault ONLY the quarians? Let me give you a tip: When deciding who needs a world more, the race that is symbioticly dependant on the local fauna tends to be the pick over the race that can SURVIVE IN ANY ENVIRONMENT, INCLUDING THE VACUME OF SPACE. The quarians PHYSICALLY NEED Ranncoh, just as the turians do dextro-worlds, or the volus ammonia-based worlds. The geth do NOT, because they can survive literally ANYWHERE. Way to totally miss the point. And AGAIN, what Gerrel does with the Dreadnought is NO DIFFERENT then what Hackett does with Sovergien on the Citadel Tower, or at Chronos Station. In fact, Shepard is NOT mad at ALL about Gerrel firing on the dreadnought. Shepard is mad Gerrel didn't try to break for the relay. But since destroying the dreadnought DIDN'T kill the Reaper Upgrades like everyone thought, it means Gerrel's choice SAVED the fleet from running headlong into the still-intact geth blockade. And when the HELL did anyone say Xen wasn't a sociopath? I think you are getting confused. People were saying that Xen's views on the geth not being living beings were the most common when the quarians started the Morning War. But then that all changed when the geth launched orginized counterattacks. And ONCE AGAIN, you seem to fail to grasp to fundimental flaw in trying to judge two races based on THREE recordings taken from a REAPER-INFECTED server. And AGAIN, since it was a door breach, it's possible that Magara's death was accidental. You are going to use a set of arrests, and possible accident, as proof the quairans were being cruel? Sorry, but that doens't hold water. You need better proof then ONE circumstance, that might have been an ACCIDENT, before you try to make accusations on the actions of two entire races. And AGAIN, back then, no one knew the geth WERE sentiant. If you are sentiant, then sure, you have rights, but NO ONE KNEW the geth were sentiant. And the desire to stop them from getting to that point was what the quarians tried. Imaging having terminators on every street and in every home. Then, suddenly, they all get the choice of wheather or not they want to kill you. The thought of all their automated soldiers being able to shoot of their own accord panicked them. Not to mention what the Council would do if they found out. Back then, the geth were seen as nothing but tools. If your gun started talking to you out of the blue, chances are you would panic and hit it too. It's a tool, it's not BUILT to talk back. What it can do if it sponaniously had the abilaty to shoot whoever it wanted is scary, since you have no clue what it would choose. "Better safe then sorry" the quarian figured, especally since if the Council found out, the geth would assumedly be history anyway, so it's not like NOT attacking them would save the geth anyway. That's what the quarians believed anyway.
Also, AGAIN, since most of those players had Wreve in their playthrough means that most are noobs that didn't play ME1. Hell, some of them didn't even play ME2. Also, that poll is out of date as well, considering that people play through the game multiple times and will choose different outcomes in each. And ME3 had less players then ME2. So, THAT'S the poll you are relying on? One that goes out of date quickly, and is mostly consistant of noobs that hardly ever meet Wrex? NOT a good example, pal.
Also, AGAIN, as stated before, the quarians went to war because the majority of them believed ot was the only option avalible to them. I have stated REPEATEDLY that the quarian Admirals can't force a decision on the fleet without ALL of the Admirals agreeing to it. In opther words' Gerrel CANNOT force anything unless Tali and Koris agreed with him. Therefore, the matter falls to the Conclave, which polls the matter among ALL quarians. And the majority of quarians WILLINGLY agreed to this, because they thought the alternitive was death. ENOUGH with your "dictator" headcannon, when governance by the people is EXACTALLY how the quarians work NOW. And they ALL collectively agreed that a war they didn't actually want was better then DYING IN SPACE. And also, the quarian Admirals do NOT choose their sucessors. They are voted in by the CONCLAVE and the quarian populance. I repeat, GERREL AND XEN WERE ELECTED INTO OFFICE FAIR AND SQUARE BY A MAJORITY VOTE AMONG THE QUARIAN POPULATION. So ONCE AGAIN, your "dictator" Bull is dead in the water. They got into office fair and square through election among the quarian people, same as Rael, Raan, and Koris. As far as I know, the ONLY exception to that rule was Tali, who was "fast-tracked" into the Board by the others for her experance with, and extensive knowledge of, the geth.
Also, by that logic, Shepard had no right to destroy the alpha relay, and Balak is completely justified in blowing the Commander's brains out. Same thing for Toombs who makes a death threat via E-Mail over how Shepard joined Cerberus. And Hackett deserves death for letting the Second Fleet and Arcturus Station burn to save the Third and Fifth Fleets. Honestly, what BS logic. Gerrel was only doing his damn job, which was to keep his people safe from any threat. And that dreadnought is the biggest threat to the quarians, and it's just become vunerable. What the hell is he SUPPOSED to do? LET it come online and blindside his people again? LET them die in the millions? Save a few, kill everyone else. THAT'S your M.O.? NO soldier would accept that line of thinking. Even Hackett personally and plainly states that he understands where Gerrel is comming from.
In this choice, it IS the wrong choice to punch out a man for DOING HIS JOB. At least undersand the REASON you are doing this - which you ALREADY have proven you CLEARLY DON'T.
Now, if that's all, I point out that you and @remydat have done nothing in this but derail the topic of this fourm, which was "Are the geth worth risking the ENTIRE GALAXY for? Are they worth the risk of losing a Reaper-free future?" How about you come up with an answer for THAT? Otherwise, stop derailing the topic. Either find a reason why the geth should get priority over every other being in the galaxy in the Endings, or leave.
mangalores wrote... So I don't think we disagree here.
Actually, we do disagree here.
Actually we don't. Trust me. You might disagree there, but not here. Don't be so contrarian.
Concerning Rannoch you create a ton of headcanon how a desolate, run down world without any agriculture, infrastructure etc. is somehow a good place to sit on, when a bunch of Reapers show up who - in contrast to a fleet - know where to visit.
Ships can and did run away, that's why there are still Turian, Asari and Human fleets while anything that holds up the processing on Earth seems solely logistical problems on the part of the Reapers, a resistance movement nonwithstanding (Anderson essentially says that they could evade death but not actually do much). It's also what all the refugee stories are all about. The evacuations manage to rescue tons of people.
But that wasn't my point at all. There are several hints ingame that suggest that the Quarians wanted to accomplish their war goals without anyone knowing about it so they were obviously worried none would like them stirring trouble in the Perseus Veil. They might sincerly think that taking Rannoch now was a good move, but e.g. Tali isn't convinced at all and the admiral of the civilian fleet isn't much of a fan either.
Again, No. We DO disagree on that. ...
Why are you so insistent about that when you solely argue about how worthwhile Rannoch is? Okay, a 300 year old ruin without any infrastructure for organics is a fantastic place to land your ships on. Doesn't change my actual reasoning which isn't focussed or reliant on that.
I said there are various in game indications the Quarians driven or not exploited the situation. You admit that Koris and Tali think the same. Case closed.
Did you NOT read ANYTHING I posted saying that the geth's infrastructure would have been completely intact and ready for the quarians to repurpose instantly? How in a month, they would have defensible settlements and safe sites, and farming for their people using the liveships as repusposed greenhouses, and more then enough jamming towers to mask their locations on-planet from Reapers? And that since the Reapers NEVE R glass a homeworld without harvesting the population, the Reapers would be FORCED into a ground hunt that would take considerably longer? AND the fact that Rannoch is extremely out of the way for the Reapers? AND the only place the quarians can safetly live on? These are things you repeatedly miss.
Also, NO. The ONLY reason the quarians went to war is because they felt it was either that, or wait in space to die. And just like the geth, the quarians chose to live, even if the action disagreed with what they really wanted. The quarians needed Rannoch back to hav any chance of surviving the war. THAT is the reason they attacked.
A - No where does it say they were unarmed. That is your speculation. It is laughable that you expect the Geth to believe these ships come in peace when the peaceful Geth were attacked due to the Council Laws and when the Council Laws resulted in harmless AI on the Citadel being slaughtered. Organics lie to each other and they can certainly lie to the Geth. Those ships violated Geth space and if they were stupid enough to continue to do so then so be it. Here is a thought, next time send unmanned aircraft and if they don't respond then leave them alone. They have no reason to trust the a**holes who say they should not exist and who exterminate peaceful AI.
B - If a Geth ship approached the Flotilla saying it came in peace, I am pretty sure it would be shot down. Ships can easily gather intell while claiming peace. They are flying in Geth space. They can use sonar or radar to determine Geth installations all under the guise of "we come in peace."
C - You keep assuming they did in fact come in peace. Did you believe it too when your parents said Santa Claus is real? Organics lie. You have no proof they were telling the truth. None. Take my word for it is not proof especially when you say the Geth should not exist and when you already tried to exterminate them once.
Please address your concerns to American Anthropological Association. They disagree with you which you would have realised if you read the article. Some anthropologists may well agree with you but many do not. So here is a thought. You believe what you want and I will believe what I want. You are some random dude on the internet and you want me to take your word over the Anthropologist who wrote the articles above. Sorry dude, send me your PhD in Anthropology then come talk to me.
The Argricultural and Domestic Units were 100% innocent. They had done nothing wrong and they were attacked mercilessly. Do you understand that concept? Reasons why they attack are irrelevant because the Geth were INNOCENT. The Geth responded to a merciless attack by showing no mercy until the Quarians fled the planet. That is what happens when you attack innocent people without any mercy.
A - IT' STANDARD POLICY. They didn't take arms against the yahg either. And AGAIN, being amred defeats the purpose of coming in peace, just like announcing your presance openly defeats the purpose of reconnisence. What's "laughable" is that the geth, with their "extremimely detailed sensor pings," which outsource all the basic forms of scanners, could EVER believe these ships weren't diplomatic vessels. Regular sensors can pick up how many life-forms are on a ship, as well as get information on what kind of equipment is aborad. Geth tech is decades better then that. Meaning there was NO way whatsover the geth could POSSIBLY EVER be unaware that these ships came in peace. Also, I remind you that SYNTHETICS lie to each-other too, given how the Heretics lied to the True Geth about wanting to stay friends. Once again, you let your double-standard laws show through. And ONCE AGAIN, they were openly announcing their presnace and intent WELL BEFORE they EVER got near the geth border. The geth would have been COMPLETELY AWARE of the ships purpose and intent WELL BEFORE they crossed the border. So ONCE AGAIN, your defense does not hold water. Here's a thought: If you don't want people to think you are irridemably hostile, don't SHOOT everyone. Basically, you are saying that border violations are enough to shoot on sight. Not even the turians do that. Hell, even the batarians don't open fire without giving a warning to turn back. It's like shouting "I can shoot you because you aren't synthetic, To hell with organics." THAT'S the message that everyone believed the geth were stating by killing everyone with no forwarning whatsoever. You are basically saying that it's okay to make people thing you are a criminal, then getting angyr because they treat you like a criminal because you MADE them think you were one. It's saying you shouldn't be blamed for a reputation thta YOUR OWN ACTIONS created. Not wanting to be disturbed is one thing - SHOOTING them dead on sight is another. ONCE AGAIN, you dodged my question - WHAT justifies the geth killing everyone on sight, when they could have just as easily warned them off, or made a formal refusal?
B - A Cerberus Ship - the Normandy - approched the Flotila saying it came in peace, and the quarians didn't shoot THAT ship down. Strange, huh? A geth boarded the Flotila, and the guard's first impuse WASN'T to shoot it on sight, but to ask it to leave. Strange, huh? And when it came aborad, the quarians accepted it inside their borders WITHOUT taking that as grounds to kill it. Strange, huh? Also, AGAIN, extremely detailed sensor pings. The ONLY way to get into geth space is using a stealth ship, like the Normandy, which hides heat emmissions, and uses a Reaper-Code based A.I. to disgusie and hide transmissions. And those didn't exist 300 years ago when the peace attempts were made. ONCE AGAIN, it is COMPLETELY IMPPOSSIBLE for the geth to not have known those ships were diplomatic.
C - IT IS STATED VERBATIUM IN MASS EFFECT: REVELATIONS. Do you see the disadvantage you are at, since you DIDN'T read the books? There is lore that you are unaware of because of it. ONCE AGAIN - No attempt to desguise their presance. Open transmissions stating they came in peace. And also, ship WITHOUT ARMS is standard policy for diplomatic ships. After all, they are diplomats. being armed COUNTERS the desire to peacefully contact the geth. There is no reason to believe the ARE lying either, I remind you. All thorughout, you have FAILED to provide one single solid reason why the geth should believe they ARE lying, when all they have done is things that show the OPPOSATE. Also, the fact that the Council made MULTIPLE ATTEMPTS to contact the geth PEACEFULLY completely destroyes your claim, because unlike the geth, the organics DID give the benifet of a doubt to the geth, and had it thrown back at them. How you think it's fair to chastize the organics, when THEY were the ones trying for peace and the geth were the ones refusing to hear it, is asanine.
Sorry, but ONCE AGAIN, you FAILED to grasp it. Typacal of you. This is all in relation to ONE'S OWN C[/i]ULTURE. NOT to judging another's culture. ONCE AGAIN, it proves NOTHING, because it's about the standards of ONES OWN CULTURE[i]. NOT about passing judgement on OTHER cultures as through you are God. It;s the study of morals as OUR CULTURE sees them - the decimination of OUR CULTURES morals, NOT their culture's morals. It DIFFERS for eace race, because the moral code of ethics is different for each. AGAIN, you show a complete FAILURE to grasp Antropology 101, because you STILL use benign antromorphisim by thinking that OUR cultural standards apply to EVERY culture, which is a biased viewpoint, and AGAIN, as stated by Legion, the Nth degree of Racisim. The science of amarican and english cultural and moral standards does NOT apply to the science of iranian and pakinstani cultural and moral standards, because both are entirely seperate cultures, and do not have the same criteria to judge them by. So, AGAIN, sorry, but your entire point AGAIN fails to hold water. After all, I believe you FAILED to note that EACH culture has it's OWN field of anthropology. There is a sub-set for EACH culture worldwide. YOU try to blend them all together and judge them all the same, when they are fundementally different from each-other, and thus, CANNOT be judged by the same standards as us. Which according to Legion, is the ultimate in racial judgement. None of the geth would condone your actions.
No, they WEREN'T, because AGAIN, ALL are capable of becoming war machines. ALL have the possobility of suddenly becoming able to shoot at whatever they want of their own accord. If you had gun, and it started having a mind of it's own, you would risk your family on ignoring that? The quarians were in a vice - either the geth rebell against them, or the Council brings a hammer down on their heads for creating an A.I. race. Do YOU understand that concept? It was either risk the geth becoming an active rebel faction, or let the Council come in and deal with it - NITHER of which would have ended well for the quarians. It;s about who you care for most - your siblings, or the gun that just now started asking questions. WHICH are you going to side with, and which are you going to let die? THAT"S what it comes down to, because you are NOT aware of a peacefull alternitive at the time. And ONCE AGAIN, the quarians were NOT aware of alternitives to the option they chose. The geth WERE aware of alternitives and ignored them. That is NOT "what you get" because the geth DID have other options that could have limited the death and made wiping out the other completely unessessary. Hell, it already WAS unessessary to do. The geth killed them overzelously for NO real reason then being overzelous. They ALREADY ADMITTED they are remorseful it came to that, so OBVIOUSLY the geth knew there were alternitives and the death was unessessary. They THEMSELVES disprove your assertation about it being "fair" soley for the fact that the geth DO regret the war.
Now, this is it - You and @shodiwse have done NOTHING but derail the original topic by bringing the quarian vs geth debate into a Destroy ending debate. How about you give a reason that responds to the QUESTION this time, which is "why are the geth worth risking the fate of the galaxy on? Are they worth every other being in the galaxy?" Answer THAT, or walk away.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 29 avril 2013 - 05:08 .
1. The Geth have no reason to believe these claims. Organics lie and just finished trying to exterminate them and have laws that say they should not exist.
2. Shep's ship was not shot at because they were invited. Tali was asked to report to the flotilla and she is on the ship. Legion was not shot at because he came with Shep. That has nothing to do with an uninvited Geth ship approaching the flotilla. Nor is it the same as uninvited organic ships invading Geth space.
3. Once again, go write to the the American Anthroplogy Association. They disagree and you are a dude on the internet without a Phd.
4. The Geth were innocent. They committed no crime. They were shown no mercy. Those are facts that can't be disputed. I don't go around killing people that have committed no crime but then again I am not a douchebag. When you let me know what crime they committed we can discuss. Oh that's right, their crime was they existed and organics don't like the fact they do.
Look at all these nerds debating the outcome of a virtual species...
I'm kidding. But if you think the Geth deserve to die, you're racist. Think of the Geth as blacks and think of the Quarians as whites, try make sense of that (don't want to get too touchy, because this be a sensitive subject.)
Really, the evidence adds up to the Quarians being the aggressor(s).
remydat and sliverexile, maybe you should settle this privately and tell us if you ever get to any conclusion. The threads where you two are debating are impossible to follow for the rest anymore. That's why the old Quarian vs. Geth thread was locked.
Look at all these nerds debating the outcome of a virtual species...
I'm kidding. But if you think the Geth deserve to die, you're racist. Think of the Geth as blacks and think of the Quarians as whites, try make sense of that (don't want to get too touchy, because this be a sensitive subject.)
Really, the evidence adds up to the Quarians being the aggressor(s).
How is that any different from thinking the Quarians deserve to die?
The Quarians were the aggressors. Aggressors are typically the ones punished not the victim who retaliates. Of course you are free to conclude otherwise but a lot of the arguments here are effectively the Geth are machines. Or they are like guns that can talk. In short, a lot of the arguments seek to marginalize their existence as a means to obscure the fact that the fleshy organics are the aggressors. I would not go so far to call it racist but there is an inherent problem there. I don't have to marginalize the Quarians form of life because I stand by the facts in deciding their fate. They attacked twice.
If Quarian supporters just stuck with they allied with the Reapers, they would be in much better position. However sooner or later they get to trying to marginalize the synthetic form of life. Fearing something because it exists, is different from you or is inferior to you in your opinion is problematic.
Look at all these nerds debating the outcome of a virtual species...
I'm kidding. But if you think the Geth deserve to die, you're racist. Think of the Geth as blacks and think of the Quarians as whites, try make sense of that (don't want to get too touchy, because this be a sensitive subject.)
Really, the evidence adds up to the Quarians being the aggressor(s).
If someone want to kill the Geth for just hate, sure. The situation here is Geth pose a very real threat to the rest of the galaxy. They are willing to screw the whole galaxy to improve themselves and they have kill every organics who came into contact with them in the last 300 years, did they not? Last time I checked, blacks or whites were not a threat to galactic stability. So, it's not a good comparison.
All because of unprovoked attacks from organics that sought to exterminate them without mercy and who have laws that say they should not exist. When you say screw over the galaxy what you mean is organics. The same organics content to destroy any AI that exists simply because their existence is deemed problematic. When Shep has to hide EDI being an AI from people for fear she would be destroyed, at some point you have to ask if the Geth harshness is merely a reflection of the galaxy the organics forced then to live in. That is the problem with fear and hate. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
So fine punish the Geth for their response. What are you going to do with all the organics that helped provoke that response? Until you address that issue there can be no justice. Just mob rule with organics being the mob.
Well really, the geth remained in isolation for hundreds of years. The only reason they even came beyond the Veil was because of the reapers. If the reapers didn't exist, the geth would never be seen again, unless the Quarians managed to coax a response aggressive enough for them to do so. Far as anyone could tell, the geth were no more a concern than the Turians or Krogan. The difference is that no one knew for certain why the geth were attacking people, because at the time, no one knew about the reapers and Sovereign was running the show on its own.
All because of unprovoked attacks from organics that sought to exterminate them without mercy and who have laws that say they should not exist. When you say screw over the galaxy what you mean is organics. The same organics content to destroy any AI that exists simply because their existence is deemed problematic. When Shep has to hide EDI being an AI from people for fear she would be destroyed, at some point you have to ask if the Geth harshness is merely a reflection of the galaxy the organics forcef it to live in. That is the problem with fear and hate. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
So fine punish the Geth for their response. What are you going to do with all the organics that helped provoke that response? Until you address that issue there can be no justice. Just mob rule with organics being the mob.
That's what the laws against creating new AIs is implemented. Only reasons anyone would create an AI is to work for them as cheap labour or as a tool of war. Even the Geth problem was created by the Quarians carelessly allowing their machines they used for these purposes to become self-aware and the Quarians paid for it (council also punished them). Every other know species is organic right? So the needs of the many(organics) outweigh the needs of the few(Geth). It's not about punishing the Geth. The history of the Geth suggest they can be a big threat again in the future(as I explained before). That's why I am ok with sacrificing the Geth in the end.
The Quarians were the aggressors. Aggressors are typically the ones punished not the victim who retaliates.
You can't punish an an entire race of people indiscriminately for something a relatively small number of people were behind. That's like saying the bombing of Dresden was completely fine because "the Germans had it coming".
The Geth however, make descisions unaminously as a consensus, which means they are all accountable for their actions, so while killing them off for their actions isn't 100% justifiable, it still makes more sense than doing it for the Quarians.
Anyway, how are the Quarians supposed to know whether or not the Geth have peaceful intentions? They kill every organic they come into contact with, then they apparently attack the Citadel with Sovereign, what else are they supposed to think? I don't agree with the Quarians for attacking them, but I dont entirely blame them either.
Modifié par Finn the Jakey, 29 avril 2013 - 05:50 .
That is still mob rule though. Look I am not telling you to change your opinion. I am simply saying be honest about what you are doing instead of trying to pretend this is some noble act. It isn't. Organics feared and hated them because they made the mistake of becoming self aware and organics have been trying to find a way to exterminate them ever since. With destroy you get to give the mob what they have always wanted and what their laws demand. That may not be why you choose it but that is irrelevant. Fear and hatred ultimately wins because of your decision. That is the cold hard truth.
That is still mob rule though. Look I am not telling you to change your opinion. I am simply saying be honest about what you are doing instead of trying to pretend this is some noble act. It isn't. Organics feared and hated them because they made the mistake of becoming self aware and organics have been trying to find a way to exterminate them ever since. With destroy you get to give the mob what they have always wanted and what their laws demand. That may not be why you choose it but that is irrelevant. Fear and hatred ultimately wins because of your decision. That is the cold hard truth.
No, my opinion is based on what the Geth have done and I honestly think they are the biggest threat in the MEU next to the Reapers. If Geth were organic, my opinion would be same. You can't deny Geth have been terrorizing the galaxy for 300 years for what ever reason and they have done nothing to change that. My Shepard isn't becoming catalyst 2.0 and enslave the Reapers to save the Geth and he sure as hell won't mess up everyones DNA to save the Geth. They are just not worth that trouble.
Retour en haut
Gerrel did NOT force anyone to war, since the quarians willingly chose war over CERTIN DEATH against the Reapers, and © Gerrel is fully capable or admitting he's wrong, as shown when he stands down in the "Peace" ending. Once again, your attempts to demonize Gerrel for doing the SAME THING you prasie tthe GETH for doing (acting in desperation for their people's survival) have failed. Honestly, you understand siding with the REAPERS out of desperation, but DON'T understand attacking a group that has repeatedly shown NO interest in negotiating? That's just a favortist view in every way.
:lol:
