452 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Justafan,

Of course it was not justified. However what were these Germans doing when the Jews were getting gassed and when Hitler was killing millions of Russians? Let's not pretend all of their hands are completely clean. Hitler was elected by the people and was elected when his hatred of Jews was well known. In fact a lot of his political speeches and mein kampf were clear on this matter. So who exactly do they think they were electing? Ghandi?

Modifié par remydat, 01 mai 2013 - 03:21 .

[BJshepard]

It is an interesting conflict between organics, and synthetics, at first I was intent on destroying the geth if i had the chance from the first game, then I meet legion in mass Effect 2 and my views changed and I believe peace could be achieved. Unfortunately I didn't play the right parts to ensure that possibility and I choose the geth and the Quarians became extinct. After a second playthrough I now know the possible routs to ensure peace and prove that both types of life can coexist peacefully.

So killing the geth is not a good idea especially if you just want the most war assets. It doesn't matter how you did Legion's loyalty mission but I recommended destruction of the heretics becuase you can replenish a little of what the the quarians lost in terms of war asset points and it gives you 2 of the 5 points you need to convince the Quarians to cease firing on the Geth.

[silverexile17s]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

Hence why I made that comparison. The Quarians tried to genocide the Geth but they failed because they're Quarians and they got kicked off a planet. The ****s got punished by the Russians.

But please, do tell me what is a worse scenario than this one that involves the introduction of the victim and the point of conflict.

EDIT: Apparently Hitler's party's name gets censored on BSN. Ho-ho-ho-kaching!

After ALL OTHER OPTIONS were either failed or blocked. Remeber, the quarians DIDN'T attack them right off the bat. First they let it be for a bit, in the hope it was a fluke. Then they tried reprogramming, so that they WOULDN'T be forced to kill them. When that failed, they felt there was no other choice but to remove the geth as a threat.
Honestly, they failed "because they're quarians"?. That's like saying all krogan are inherently stupid "because their krogan" - a form of judgement which I thought you were trying to disprove?

It's about which you would save - your family, or the gun that just now started up and asking questions. That's the situation the quarians were backed in.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver

1. Glad you trust people who try to exterminate you because they say peace on the radio. The Geth don't and I agree with them. You are free to trust them. I am free not to.

2. In the Veetor mission Shep has to decide whether Veetor goes with Tali or back with CERBERUS for questioning. Tali and her team know that he, Jacob and Miranda are with Cerberus. The rest of her team nearly get themselves killed because they want to get to Veetor before CERBERUS. Did you skip this mission?

3. http://www.aaanet.or...uman-Rights.cfm

When any culture or society denies or permits the denial of such opportunity to any of its own members or others, the American Anthropological Association has an ethical responsibility to protest and oppose such deprivation.

4. I said the Geth were innocent prior to the Quarians attacking them pre-MW. Still waiting on you telling me what crime they committed back then. I never claimed they were innocent for eternity. If I did then provide the post where I said this.

1. LOL. You DO realize that same thing applies to LEGION, right? By YOUR OWN LOGIC, Gerrel is completely VALIDATED in ignoring Legion and Tali's proposal, because Legion is a geth - a mamber of a "people who try to exterminate you." And  EVERYONE ELSE in ME1 with Saren. You just countered YOUR OWN STATED VIEWS on Gerrel being unreasonable, when this statement of yours says that he was completely valid in thinking peace was not possible based on Legion's word.
And AGAIN, "trust" has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Something you repeatedly ignore.
Even if the geth DID disregard ALL the blatently obvious signs that they came in peace, from standard unarmed peace ships, to openly boradcasting their location and intent, why resort to shooting them on sight? Warding them off wouldn't have worked? Openly declining to talk wouldn't have worked? ANYTHING would have been better then shooting them dead with no reason stated or responce ever given. You STILL have a habit of dodging the question. How about you give me an ANSWER: WHY was shooting them on sight AFTER they entered the Veil better then warding them off or declining the invite BEFORE they crossed into the Veil? Because those ships were transmitting BEFORE they entered the Veil. They could have been warded off or declined well before they EVER entered geth space. Why didn't the geth jsut come out and refuse?

2. Once again, you fail to even try to think things through.
Do you really think Cerberus contact would be a publicly stated thing in the fleet? Aside from about three or so people, Tali's entire squad was dead. Rael could easily hide the Cerberus involvement, and Tali was likely the one that forwarded Veetor's data personally, as Shepard told Miranda Tali would do just that after letting Tali get Veetor back to the fleet. SHE gave the data, NOT the quarian's themselves. Did you SLEEP through that mission, or did YOU skip through it?
And the only survivor from Haestrom was Kal'Reegar, who Rael could easily order to stay silent on the matter. In all likelyhood, Rael was the only one that knew about Tali being on a Cerberus ship, as theidea that his daughter was working with an avowed enemy would have been embarresing for him politically and publicly. We already know that secrets are not uncommon with the quarians, especally with Rael, given that not even his best friend Gerrel knew about the geth experiments Rael was conducting till after the Alerei went dark. So Rael, Veetor, Reegar, and about three others are the only ones that know about Cerberus and Shepard. Unless those three others were on Haestrom with Tali's team. In that case, only Reegar and Veetor.
So AGAIN, you fail to provide any solid evidence that the quarians were publicly aware of Tali's involvement with Cerberus, or that Shepard was with them. If the fact that they DON'T reconize the Normandy as the ship's she's on wasn't proof enough of that. It also comes back to the fact that the quarians are not the "shoot on sight with no wave-off of warning" like the geth are. And that again, they are more reasonable then the geth are.

3. ONCE AGAIN, dead wrong. Did you read ANYTHING I posted?
That is how WE view culture. That webpage ONCE AGAIN proves ABSOLUTLY NOTHING, as it is the way the American Anthropological Association sees culture. NOT the entire world. Last I checked, America's views are NOT the devine law the entire world must follow, nor are they diffinitively right. ONCE AGAIN, you FAIL at Antropology 101, because you think that compariing and making observations on other cultures in relation to our own gives people the right to dictate how all culture and life should evolve. You think that a single culture has the right to dictate how all life and culture everywhere should develop? That the standards of our single country are the devine law? How deluded. Culture is like evolution. It happens naturally. There is no set law about how it develops. YOU think it should all follow strict' diffinitive laws on how a race, cultutre, or life should develop? That is racial judgement to the highest degree. The exact OPPPOSATE of what the study of Antropology should teach. The idea that all live in the universe everywhere MUST follow a spicific doctrine issued by one culture in one country based on one world is completely asinine.
Once again, America's laws are NOT God's laws. You aren't God. Don't ACT like you are by thinking you can dictate how life and people evolve. Such actions are hypocricatical of Antropology.

People and groups have a generic right to realize
their capacity for culture, and to produce, reproduce and change the
conditions and forms of their physical, personal and social existence,
so long as such activities do not diminish the same capacities of
others. Anthropology as an academic discipline studies the bases and the
forms of human diversity and unity; anthropology as a practice seeks to
apply this knowledge to the solution of human problems.
I do NOT see any statement that gives America, or any other country the right to dictate to others what right or wrong diffinitively is, and how they should live or evolve or sort their problems out, or how culture should or shouldn't diffinitively develop. Acting like you can is benign anthromorphism. Which is a racist judgement.

4. They didn't do anything before the war. But unfortunately for you, that DOESN'T MATTER.
AGAIN, "innocence" has NO APPLICATION to what is basically a walking gun. You are basically saying a loaded gun that hasn't yet shot anyone yet isn't a danger. Something no sane person would think. They are dangerous by DEFAULT because they are walking weapons. That are starting to THINK. Forgive the quarians for acting SANE in thinking such a thing was naturally a threat. It ISN'T about "innocence" or "crime." You KEEP antromorphising the geth, because you are STILL operating on the incorrect premise that the quarians saw them as living beings back then. They DID NOT before the Morning War. They saw them as tools that suddenly were going "faulty" and could become an unstable danger to them. Just like a shroted-out fuse box, or a buzzsaw that starts going off on it's own. Your question doesn't even matter, because It was NEVER about "crime" and "innocence." The quarians didn't see the geth that way. So your premise doesn't apply to them.
However, the geth have proven they DID see the quarians as living beings. They KNEW that there were other options, and just ignored them. That's different then not knowing that the altenritives exist. Because you DO know there is a genteler path and dilibertately ignore it. The quarians resorted to viloence as a LAST DESPERTAE RESORT. The geth resulted to it as a default. You also claimed that the quarian's agression was the sole cause of all the fighting, when I have show it is NOT.

And AGAIN, you ignore the fact that this STILL doesn;t have anby relation to the question S.A.K originally put up - Are the geth worth more then stopping the Reapers for good? Answer THAT, then, or let this arguement go, because it's becoming more and more apperant that you CAN'T find an answer for that.

[remydat]

1. I already said the Quarians have no reason to trust the Geth. So I never asked Gherel to trust Legion. I said he should trust Shep and Tali who just saved the entire Quarian race with the help of Legion I might add. And I already told you why shooting them was an option. They could be gathering intel. Warding them off and escorting allows them to return with intel on the PV.

2. Right so Tali and her crew meet Shep, Miranda and Jacob, argue about the fact he is working with Cerberus but somehow no one else in the fleet knows? I suppose they don't subscribe to the ANN either since there are ANN stories in ME2 that talk about Shep's ties to Cerberus. Believe what you want Silver.

3. Right, so before you claimed anthropology 101 is you don't make moral judgements about other cultures and then when I provide clear proof anthropologists disagree you suddenly switch to but they are American? That's bull Silver. You were wrong. Anthropoogy 101 says you respect other cutlures to the extent they do not violate basic human rights like stoning a girl to death for going to a beauty pageant.

4. Are the Geth suppose to be like, "Well since the Quarians think we are walking guns, let's not defend ourselves and just be slaughtered. That will show them!!!" Sorry no. The Quarians attacked without mercy and they were killed without mercy. If someone comes to me and says in their culture, my life is inferior to theirs and then tries to kill me, I will kill them without remorse, call the police to come and collect the body and take my statement and then go back to playing Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par remydat, 02 mai 2013 - 02:25 .

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...


4. Are the Geth suppose to be like, "Well since the Quarians think we are walking guns, let's not defend ourselves and just be slaughtered. That will show them!!!" Sorry no. The Quarians attacked without mercy and they were killed without mercy. If someone comes to me and says in their culture, my life is inferior to theirs and then tries to kill me, I will kill them without remorse, call the police to come and collect the body and take my statement and then go back to playing Mass Effect 3.

4. Are the Quairans suppose to be like, "Well since the Geth think we are walking guns, let's not defend ourselves and just be slaughtered. That will show them!!!" Sorry no. The Geth attacked without mercy and they were killed without mercy. If someone comes to me and says in their culture, my life is inferior to theirs and then tries to kill me, I will kill them without remorse, call the police to come and collect the body and take my statement and then go back to playing Mass Effect 3.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

Rip,
There is no proof those ships came in peace as we never see these events.  The Geth said they consider fear of organics hardwired into them so they obviously don't think organics come in peace.  All they ask for is data.  That data is not coming into the Veil while your fleet is amassed outside waiting to attack.  The data is not killing a harmless AI race on the Citadel.  The data is not keeping laws in place that say they should not exist.  Give me data that says the Geth should trust organics?  Claiming peace is not data.  It is entirely possible peace was their mission.  However, there is no reason for the Geth to trust that when armies are outside the veil and when the law says the Geth should not exist. 

And when someone is the aggressor, the burden of proof is on them.  This is what you guys don't seem to get.  When one group serves another all their lives, is attacked with the intent of exterminating them from existence then no matter how excessive you deem their response, they are not the ones that need to prove peace is possible.  They proved peace was possible by serving you faithfully.  The only reason peace appears impossible is because of you.  So you are the one that needs to provide the data because you are the one that violated the peace.  The Geth did not violate any peace.  The Quarians did and the Council did via their laws.

Rip504 wrote...

Geth killed billions,Geth help create synthetic fear and hate,Geth chose isolation,Geth chose violence,Geth chose the Reapers as allies,etc.

And yes you did claim above they helped create synthetic fear.  If you really meant they helped feed it then fear enough but I was responding to the word you actually used.

Wow just wow. The Geth would have to be open to communication for data and proof that peace is a possibility. The Geth were not.  Prove that none of the ships came in peace or out of curiosity with no intentions of harming the Geth. You can not.  The fleet amassed to protect and defend their space and their people. Not to attack. Fabricated. Why are the Geth the only ones allowed to asked for data? When the Geth have shown every sign of being a hostile race? Organics needs more data. Especially more then just being killed by Geth while the Geth refuse any kind of communication. Also the Billions of Organics slayed by their hands. (Geth)  Drop the double standard or admit that double standards are "ok" in this discussion.

The aggressor? The Geth systematically mercilessly killed billions of Quarians,and a multitude of other Organics. The Geth became aggressors. Defiantly concerning other organics whom have NEVER attacked them,yet the Geth have still killed them with the same discriminate views they hold for every organic. Either way,the organic lifeforms in the galaxy are not the aggressive force that attacked the Geth. To the mass majority of Organic life within the ME universe the Geth are the aggressors. They have killed innocents,cut off communications,and have killed organics not involved in their struggle in any way for the last 300 years. Excluding the systematic slaughter of billions. The burden of proof lies on the "accusing" party. The Geth say the Organics are incapable. They are accusing the Organics yet have absolutely no proof of being a peaceful race themselves. They are accusing and holding every Organics responisble for the actions of a single organic race.  Outside looking in the Geth are monsters,and rightfully so. If I punch everyone and anyone whom every tries to communicate with me,How can I expect to make friends? Why should I expect others to make attempts of peace and friendship with me? Why should others even believe it is a possibilty? I should take steps to cause harm,avoid contact,and blame the others for my actions. Based on bias opinions. Sounds a little silly to me.

How is systematically killing billions of Organics,continuing this thought pattern for the next 300 years,and serving the Quarian people as unintelligent VI's signs of peace? Or proving peace was possible? lmao. How is it "NOT" violating peace? After the war was over the Geth have no reason to act the way they did. They chose to. They did not accept peace or prove it was possible with their actions. They indicate otherwise. As they wanted to be left alone. Not live in peace with organics.

You were hoping to twist my words and did not succeed. They did not originally create the fear and hate,yet they did "create" synthetic hate and fear within certain organics. They helped feed it,but also gave reason for some to point to example and say this is where some hate and fear for synthetic life was created. Feeding the Synthetic hate and fear implies more reasons and examples were created. So yes they fed,and created synthetic hate and fear. Did some cases exist before the Geth? Yes. Did the Geth create some new cases? Yes. You tried to twist it in a way that implied I was stating all synthetic fear and hate stemmed from the Geth. Obviously a statement as such is completely absurd.

Modifié par Rip504, 02 mai 2013 - 11:33 .

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...


Whatever we decide, we need to apply it to BOTH sides.

Hold the Geth to the standard you are holding the Quarians to,and we will talk again. No more "double standards". No more one side "has","must" do something the other does not.  You directly stated their silence,why should the Geth care about the slaughter of innocent life. Well we have examples of Quarians trying for peace both before and after the MW. Why should the Geth care about killing innocents. How about your justification of those whom have never attacked or posed a threat to the Geth. O the Geth chose not to know or find out so the needless murder of innocents is justified. There was a potential so the Geth should kill them. lmao. The potential also exist that these same ships could have been peaceful. Hence they should have tried,communicated,or something other then the needless murder of innocent life.

Others did not dictate or intervene with military force to decide that fate of another's freewill. So they are evil monsters and deserve to be murdered for the actions of others. Why should anyone care. I mean come on. These arguments can not be taken seriously. You talk about the right to live and be free,yet because others did not impose their will they are monsters. Yet the Quarians are also monsters for... Imposing their will.

Synthesis directly states Synthetics now have a full understanding of Organic life. So the Geth's opinions and interpretations can be easily be said to be a "poor interpretation of organic life" or stating that the Geth do not truly understand Organic life. Nor have the Geth made any peaceful attempts at doing so.  The Geth consider synthetic fear and hate to be hardwired into Organics. Well when you shoot them in the face for trying to have a conversation it is not hard to see why one would come to this poor interpretation of Organic life. Yet giving a reason to,does not imply it is hardwired.

Heck bringing up the Krogans shows and proves that Organics can make peace with a race they were once at war with. Turians and Humanity. Just because a war was fought and bad feelings are held does not prove peace is unattainable. When peace exist between previously waring factions it should be all the data needed to realize peace with a previous enemy is a realistic possibility. The Geth chose to ignore such things as this and Quarians pushing for peace and freedom and chose to believe all Organics hate and fear Synthetics. So the answer is to kill them and stay isolated while hiding behind that same hate and fear you and the Geth are condemning,yet justifying their own hate and fear. That is lacking the knowledge of Organic life and thought process. It is also a "double standard".

I kill the Geth because they are not innocent and choose to lie and deceive not only me,but all organic life. They condemn all whom are different from them based on their bias and discriminative views. At least the Quarians are honest with me. Geth consider organic life their enemy. Quarians consider the Geth their enemy. Yea that is a hard decision when picking between the two. The Geth are lucky I let them have peace until they are destroyed in the destroy ending. As they have done nothing to deserve my pity or sympathy. They won a war resulting in the death of billions and now condemn all organic life? Yet I should hold a bleeding and mourning heart for the Geth over these events? They then choose to join the Reapers twice,remain isolated and hostile towards organics,get attacked again and now I should be like o those poor innocent babies? Nah,the Geth brought the destruction of their race upon themselves. Just as the Quarians did IF they are the race destroyed.

Neither side is innocent or justified in their actions. Or I would state the Quarians just wanted their homeworld and the Geth left no avenue except war to reclaim their world. A world in which the Quairans may die a Mandalorian death without. Yet it is not justified or innocent,still the Geth never made peace a realistic or easy avenue to take. So much so,I question why would anyone ever consider the Geth peaceful or open to peace? Based on the events within the ME universe. I do not personally remember the dialogue between Legion and Tali concerning peace talks before the events of ME3. Either way peace was not obtained and the Geth stopped talking before the attack. Also Koris offers peace and Legion dismisses it by stating the Geth need more data. So do Organics Legion. So on that statement alone I am suppose to believe the Geth have always wanted peace and have been striving for it for their entire existence,yet chose to remain isolated,give no signs of peaceful relations being attainable,and killing curious organics without question based on potential backed by discriminative bias views?

Ps. I did not originally state that the Geth condemn all Organic life. From my interpretation of what you have been stating I have reached this as being a possible conclusion implied by you.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

4. Are the Quairans suppose to be like, "Well since the Geth think we are walking guns, let's not defend ourselves and just be slaughtered. That will show them!!!" Sorry no. The Geth attacked without mercy and they were killed without mercy. If someone comes to me and says in their culture, my life is inferior to theirs and then tries to kill me, I will kill them without remorse, call the police to come and collect the body and take my statement and then go back to playing Mass Effect 3.

This makes no sense.  The Geth do not attack because they think the Quarian form of life is inferior.  They attack the Quarians because the Quarians attacked them FIRST.  It is the Quarian supporters who are suggesting that the Geth were attacked because their form of life was inferior.

Modifié par remydat, 03 mai 2013 - 02:51 .

[remydat]

Rip504

The Geth showed no sign of being hostile until they were mercilessly attacked.  This is a fact that cannot be debated.  The Geth have already proven they can live in peace with the Quarians or organics because that is precisely what they were doing until they were mercilessly attacked.  The conflict started because of the Council Laws and the Quarian attack.  Even then, the Geth were willing to die for the Creators like Megara until such time that those creators apparently no longer existed or no longer stood up for them.

So you are confused.  I am not saying the Geth not valuing the lives of innocent organics is right.  I am saying why should you or anyone expect that when organics never showed they valued Geth lives once the Creators like Megara were killed or otherwise silenced? If a puppy is born and you keep beating the sh*t out of it, when it bites you and everyone that looks like you then you can't act surprised.  What did you think would happen if you kept beating the sh*t out of it?  Did you think it would say thank you, may I have another?  EDI in ME3 notes that when she was the Rogue VI on Luna that being born admist at attack was very confusing.  That is how she explains why she ended up killing those marines.  She was born and then came under attack and so did what any sentient species whose first experience after birth would do.  She killed to protect herself.

And I have no proof that the ships did not come in peace and I never claimed that it was not possible that they did.  I said the Geth have no reason to believe that due to the above.  Again, this is not about them being right.  This is about them responding in a predictable manner given the above.

In 300 years, the Geth until the heretics never entered Organic space.  They aggressively defended their space from the organics who claimed they have no right to exist.  You can't go around having laws that say people should not exist and then trying to exterminate them when they do exist and then expect to be invited to dinner.  Entering the PV is a threat.  Organics do not belong there just like the Geth don't belong in organic space which is why when they wanted to find Shep they specifically say they only send one single Geth unit so as not to incite organics.

And no one said the Geth understand organic life.  Legion flat out says he thinks fear or hate of organics is hardwired into them.  He is obviously wrong about that.  The issue is he has no reason to conclude otherwise because from his perspective the Geth served the Quarians faithfully and were attacked.  He says flat out the Geth do not understand this.  He changes his opinion because of Shep and Shep alone.  

So I am not sure what your argument is here.  We agree both sides are not innocent.  The only difference is I maintain the reason the Geth committed the acts they did is directly attributable to the violence and lack of mercy the Quarians taught them.  The Geth never wanted to fight.  The Geth only wanted to serve.  The Geth were willing to die for Creator Megara.  However, at some point they calculated, the Creator Megara's of the world were an anomoly and that organics are otherwise hardwired to fear and hate them so they attacked.  If you or the Quarians wanted them to behave otherwise then they should have taught them something other than violence and a lack of mercy.  So again, nothing to do with right or wrong. 

Modifié par remydat, 03 mai 2013 - 03:56 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

1. I already said the Quarians have no reason to trust the Geth. So I never asked Gherel to trust Legion. I said he should trust Shep and Tali who just saved the entire Quarian race with the help of Legion I might add. And I already told you why shooting them was an option. They could be gathering intel. Warding them off and escorting allows them to return with intel on the PV.

2. Right so Tali and her crew meet Shep, Miranda and Jacob, argue about the fact he is working with Cerberus but somehow no one else in the fleet knows? I suppose they don't subscribe to the ANN either since there are ANN stories in ME2 that talk about Shep's ties to Cerberus. Believe what you want Silver.

3. Right, so before you claimed anthropology 101 is you don't make moral judgements about other cultures and then when I provide clear proof anthropologists disagree you suddenly switch to but they are American? That's bull Silver. You were wrong. Anthropoogy 101 says you respect other cutlures to the extent they do not violate basic human rights like stoning a girl to death for going to a beauty pageant.

4. Are the Geth suppose to be like, "Well since the Quarians think we are walking guns, let's not defend ourselves and just be slaughtered. That will show them!!!" Sorry no. The Quarians attacked without mercy and they were killed without mercy. If someone comes to me and says in their culture, my life is inferior to theirs and then tries to kill me, I will kill them without remorse, call the police to come and collect the body and take my statement and then go back to playing Mass Effect 3.

1. Yet you keep acting like they were idiots to not do so. ONCE AGAIN, Tali and Shepard's opinions are based on information provided by LEGION. Therefore, Shepard and Tali's info is COMPLETELY DEPENDANT on what Legion tells them. Ergo, trust in Legion being honest is the key. This isn't rocket science. Peacing together that Shepard and Tali's word  isn't trustible because it stems soley from Legion's information  is not complicated. It STILL stemms from trust in Legion. Think back to Anderson and Shepard. Just because SHEPARD  believes it's true doesn't mean it is. And AGAIN, you DO realize this is BEFORE they save the quarian race, right? BEFORE?
And if you are talking about the Alerei, it was never really a threat, since the quarians had the oppertunity to blow it apart the entire time, and only didn't do so because Tali might be able to find something to exonorate herself on it.
And I already told YOU that the ships could have just as easily been warded off BEFORE they could cross into the Veil. They were broadcasting WELL BEFORE they entered the Veil, so the geth could have responded and sent them off without them EVER crossing the Veil's borders. And since the Perseus Veil is a naturally opaque nebula that renders digital imaging IMPOSSIBLE from the outside of the Veil (Source: ME2: Codex: Primary Entries: Planets and Locations: Perseus Veil), it means that they would not be able to get any form of reconnisence from outside. And they were broadcasting WELL BEFORE reaching the Veil, so they could have been warded off well before. So NO, that ISN'T any form of arguement.

2. AGAIN, all but three of Tali's squad DIED. Remember? And they could be sworn to military secrecy by Rael easily because there are only three other witnesses, remember? And AGAIN, the quarians are an INSULAR SOCIATY, so they hardly have ANY form of outside news? And the fact that ONCE AGAIN, the broadcasts did NOT say Sheaprd's survival was confirmed, but were only rumors, and that Cerberus connnections are NEVER mentioned in those broadcasts?
You are really off the ball, aren't you? ONCE AGAIN, nothing to prove your point, and AGAIN trying to get further and further from the original topic - the quarians, unlike the geth, DON'T shoot labled enemies approching them without warning them off.

3. WRONG. ONCE AGAIN, you try to twist my words, but again, fail.
YOU are the one that was listing the American definition as the all-knowing by citing them as your source? YOU  are taking the example of ONE culture as grounds to judge every culture that exists and will exist. You are making moral judgements based on ONE SET CULTUREAL STANDPOINT. ONE viewpoint. Judging everyone by applying YOUR spicific culture's moral standard to them is benign antromorphism, which is the ultimate in racial judgement. YOU are the one taking our culture as the ultimate moral compass, and that Our spicific cultural morals can be used to judge every being and culture that does and can exist. THAT is the bull. YOU are the one that is wrong, thinking that you can impose judgement on all cultures and races based on a single set of morals, with no consideration of their own. That YOU think you have the right to say their entire culture is wrong for being fundementally different, just because it is NOT a carbon copy of what  OUR morals agree with? ONCE AGAIN, different cultures have DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES on moral, and human rights. We are a completely different culture, so OUR moral standards and ideals on human rights are SEPERATE from theirs, and we have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to judge them using OUR laws when theirs are fundementally different, because their CULTURE is fundementally different. We have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to judge them on such things when our culture developed and functions completely different then theirs. We are not the devine. YOU are not the Devine. Stop ACTING you can play God and dictate how all cultures should and must act, because NO ONE has that right. Not me. Not you.
(FYI, krogan tend to do the exact same thing among themselves, as do vorcha with offworld-bread members of theri race)

4. Well slaughtering the UNARMED CIVILIANS wholesale certinly didn't do ANYTHGING to DISPROVE the quarian's fears, DID IT?? Are you even thinking this through? Someone has a wrong idea of you, and starts chasing you down. So you think the best course of action is to act exactally they way they THINK you are going to act, and do exactally the thing they accused you of going to do, which is go berserk? Do you know how retarded that sounds? It's like being accused falsely for a crime, and then validating their suspissions by resisting arrest and running for it. MUCH harder to fix after you have seemingly incriminated yourself. It only makes it WORSE. The geth proved already they had the capasity to beat the quarians without breaking a sweat. Had they stayed on the defensive and picked their targets, someone would notice "hey, they aren't harming our people unessessaraly, so let's stop." Instead, the geth retaliated harshly with NO concern for civilians, which only served to cement the quarian's belief that the geth would have turned on them anyway, and make them think that they were right to try and destroy them. So SORRY, but AGAIN, dead wrong.  The quarians attacked as a LAST RESORT, against what they thought were still MINDLESS TOOLS. It was NOT genocidal intent. It was trying to get rid of a danger before it could threaten their people - their families.
ONCE AGAIN, you use a biased view and antromorphise the geth. The CORRECT ideal is:
Your gun starts acting up. Do you keep it around and hope for the best, or let it sit around until it potentally shoots your brother dead? Do you NOT care about your brother's life to risk it so callously for the sake of a personal creed?
Just look at @Rip504, who shows that the same can EASILLY be truned back on you. ONCE AGAIN, you use a double-standard.

And ONCE AGAIN, you FAILED to asnwer the main question of this thread - -  Are the geth worth sacrificing the only surefire chance fo stopping the Reapers for good? Are they worth potentally risking EVERYONE ELSE IN THE GALAXY?
ANSWER THAT.

[remydat]

1. Gherel has no knowledge that anything came from Legion. His only interaction is with Tali or Shep when he is told to stand down. He is not a game player.

2. Right so Rael swore Tali's squad to secrecy and the Quarians don't listen or read ANN. You do realize none of this is stated in the game and you are just making sh*t up right?

3. Nope I told you what anthropologists say. You claimed they didn't say it. If you are mad then take it up with them because they do say it.

4. If I fear a dog and kick it in the nuts and it attacks me and my child then sure I suppose I could claim the dog proved my fears were justified. Or I could realise I was an idiot and provoked the dog and in doing so it did what one would expect when you provoke it. Not to mention, it was pretty f**king irresponsible for me to kick the dog in the nuts when my kid is right there.

And the question was answered. No they are not worth sacrificing to stop the Reapers in my opinion unless we are sacrificing everyone who provoked them too. You are free to do what you want in your game.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

1. Gherel has no knowledge that anything came from Legion. His only interaction is with Tali or Shep when he is told to stand down. He is not a game player.

2. Right so Rael swore Tali's squad to secrecy and the Quarians don't listen or read ANN. You do realize none of this is stated in the game and you are just making sh*t up right?

3. Nope I told you what anthropologists say. You claimed they didn't say it. If you are mad then take it up with them because they do say it.

4. If I fear a dog and kick it in the nuts and it attacks me and my child then sure I suppose I could claim the dog proved my fears were justified. Or I could realise I was an idiot and provoked the dog and in doing so it did what one would expect when you provoke it. Not to mention, it was pretty f**king irresponsible for me to kick the dog in the nuts when my kid is right there.

And the question was answered. No they are not worth sacrificing to stop the Reapers in my opinion unless we are sacrificing everyone who provoked them too. You are free to do what you want in your game.

1. Um... LOL. Legion & Tali talked with Gerrel and the other Admirals DIRECTLY. You DO remember that, right? The negotiation proposal Tali presented practally RIGHT AFTER her return to the Fleet and her fast-tracked ascension to Admiral? BEFORE the geth prevented Legion from returning any contact anymore? Meaning that they talked with Legion directly, over Legion's wireless communication. Therefore, YES, Gerrel WAS completely aware of where their ideals came from. After all, Tali would NEED to list a source for her negotiation ideal and where it came from, since negotiation NEVER worked before. And I'm pretty sure that the entire decleration of peace being possible is based on one persons (or two) PERSONAL trust on a member of an assumedly hostile race is naturally going to be doubted, when debating on what to bet 17 MILLION people on.
Are you even thinking on this?

2. Um.... LOL again. You DO realize that the ANN NEVER confirmed Shepard being alive in any of the news broadcasts in ME2, right? And that they NEVER listed ANYTHING about Cerberus being involved, right? Every single post listed "more and more sightings of Shepard" and concerning the RUMORS that Shepard was alive. And if you are talking about Al-Jalani, you DO realize that such interview material would be edited well before being aired? AND that since Shepard is working with Cerberus, the Alliance and Council would do ecerything in their power to HIDE Shepard's survival to prevent knowledge on Shepard working with Cerberus being known to the public, RIGHT? You DO realize that you are basically talking out your ass now by inventing things, right?
I'm sorry, but YOU are the one "making sh*t up" and stating things that are not in the game. Also, as shown in the Movie "Paragion Lost," We see that Shepard's survival is pretty much NOT known even privately among even the Alliance, until shortly around the time the Collector Base was destroyed. Do me a favor - look up the lore of the games and expanded universe before you start acting like you are the be-all know-all.
So AGAIN, the quarians would NOT know about Shepard being with Cerberus, because not even the GENERAL PUBLIC knows about Shepard being alive, and FIY, in a scene on the Normandy, Tali comments that if people were publicly aware of the Cerberus ties, half of all the people Shepard knows would shoot the Commander on sight. She directly comments on how being Cerberus affliated is NOT public knowledge. So, SORRY, but publc information would NOT provide the quarians anything, because NO public source has any information regarding Cerberus. Boy, do you not know the lore.
So AGAIN, the only quarians that know are the small handfull I mentioned before, who Rael could easily sware to secrecy, since his daughter being with them would be a sensitive subject that he wouldn't want just anyone to know about, since it could be used as political levarage against him, and hurt his rep, and subsiquently the war effort he supports.
In one sentance, you formed a dozen mistakes that could only be caused by blatently ignoring what I said just last post. Incredible.

3. WRONG. YET AGAIN , you twist words around.
I stated that they are talking about OUR cultural standards. NOT the racial judgement of others based on that. ONCE AGAIN, I state that they are listing their opinions, but are not imposing judgement like the devine on other races. Once again, YOU are the one that misinterperts. Perhaps intentionally.
ONCE AGAIN, I state that they are making comparisons between our cultures, but NOT imposing judgement on them like they are gods. They are making observations on their laws, but NOT trying to justify wadging a holy war on them, stating that their ideals must be wiped out. NO ONE has the right to say that a culture does not have the right to make it's own choices on how they develop or not. Not me. And given your anthromorphic views, Certenly not YOU. You refuse to even acknowledge any other culture but yours as a standpoint to judge from. You think that judging everyone from one cultural standpoint is just? It is the epitimy of racisim. Sorry, but you need to judge people by THEIR cultural standpoint unless you always want your opinions to be biased and racisit.
So, SORRY, but ONCE AGAIN, my point stands - YOU have no right to judge a culture as being evil, just because their definitions of morals and humanity don't match yours. You don't have the right to diffinitively state what right and wrong is.
Stating an opinion (those experts) is NOT the same as judgeing and condcemning an entire race just because their standards don't match yours (your racial judgement views).

4. LOL. ONCE AGAIN, you misinterperit and FAIL to comprehend the ENTIRE POINT.
ONCE AGAIN, you make a point that has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with what I just stated. You used a FALSE example by incorrectly antromorphising the geth as a pet, when the geth were built as TOOLS.
The CORRECT version of that sceen is:
Your GUN - a tool - basically an INNATIMATE OBJECT that was NOT made to have free will, and, UNLIKE a dog, is NOT made to be a living being, NOT a thing you would EXPECT to be a living being, and would NOT expect to start acting on it's own - suddenly starts acting indepentandly with no explination whatsoever to how it happened, since it was nothing you did that caused it. It's a gun.
You COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT  - AGAIN. A GUN is something that has ONLY ONE FUNCTION - to shoot. To be used as a tool of the owner.
Your mistake is that you continue to use the completely wrong notion that the quarians saw the geth as people, or that they saw them as alive, or intended them to be alive. They DID NOT. They saw the geth as TOOLS. Basically, INATIMATE OBJECTS, as far as they knew. And they NEVER intended the geth to be any form of living being. They saw the geth as tools, NOT pets. They did NOT see the geth as a pet, they saw the geth as what they BUILT them as - WEAPONS, and assumed the weapons would naturally act the way weapons are MADE to act - as killing machines.
WHAT a screw-up you've made. The geth were NOT seen as pets -- living beings with free will that are born and raised with emotions and natural responces -- but as TOOLS of LABOR and WAR - inatamate objects that could perform advanced tasks automated with NO opinion on the matter, and made to do ONE task - the task they were CONSTRUCTED for. Therefore, they do NOT have the emotional attackmeng one would have to a pet. It would be how they treat a gun. You used the COMPLETELY WRONG generalzation.
Correct that, and THEN come and talk.

And AGAIN, WHAT a ******, racist, sociopathic statement. It's ONE race vs EVERYONE ELSE. You really think that having an organic race on the chopping block would make the choice any different? People would STILL pick it no matter WHAT race was on the chopping block. ANd your "reason" doesn't matter regarding the "provoking" since the geth were attacked based on a reputation THEY themselves created.
Actually, the fact that you value the geth over EVERY OTHER RACE IN EXISTANCE is rather indicative of your one-sided bias. I don't think anything you can say will ever undo the fact that you blatently favor synthetics, given that your "reasons" have NOTHING to do with it, since you would drag EVERYONE in the galaxy down for the geth, including races that had NOTHING to do with the Morning War or Rannoch War. It's the ultimate in racial judgement placing one form of life as hiving such a higher value.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 04 mai 2013 - 09:30 .

[Auld Wulf]

Here's something I pointed out in another thread.

The Deceit

In this thread and others like it, I've commonly seen the Geth portrayed as being like the Decepticons from Transformers -- a well-armed, well-trained, durable invasion of evil robots.

Yet this is what the Mass Effect series tells us of them:

* The Geth were built as servile units. Their programming compels them to maintain, not destroy.
* The Geth have nothing beyond their shields. A strong wind could knock them over.
* The Geth weren't trained in military-grade weapons use. A Geth doesn't know what a "gun" is.
* The Geth would no more have access to high-end military hardware than a farmer would.

Please let that sit for a moment. Understand the words. The Geth are essentially Wall-E.

The Question

How did the Geth defeat the highly trained, fully armed, and far more durable Quarian military without any training, durability, or military-grade hardware (shields, weapons, et cetera) of their own? How did the Geth even know what a gun was.

How?

My answer to this: They had help. But from who?

Ball's in your court, guys.

[Argolas]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The Question

How did the Geth defeat the highly trained, fully armed, and far more durable Quarian military without any training, durability, or military-grade hardware (shields, weapons, et cetera) of their own? How did the Geth even know what a gun was.

How?

My answer to this: They had help. But from who?

Ball's in your court, guys.

They didn't need help. The Geth already had military platforms, fighting was among teir tasks, and the other platforms could "learn" in no time. They just needed to share data.

Edit: Here's a source. Primary codex, non-council-races, very first sentence:

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked A.I.s. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war."

Modifié par Argolas, 04 mai 2013 - 03:24 .

[Khelish]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Please let that sit for a moment. Understand the words. The Geth are essentially Wall-E.

Yep, sure. Cause Wall-E was a tool made for "labor and war"... 

They had help. But from who?

Ball's in your court, guys.

The geth didn't need help, they were tools made for "labor and war"... 

If our drones became self-aware, they wouldn't need help. A tool for war, or a geth that becomes self-aware, does not need help from the civilian populace. Tell me this Wulfie, why are there no quarians on Rannoch during Mass Effect 3? Surely some of the sympathizers made it-... oh wait...

Edit: I knew I should have responded sooner... 

Modifié par Khelish, 04 mai 2013 - 03:44 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

IMO yes. This is not only regarding the Geth/Quarian conflict. Here are some of my reasons considering that the galaxy contain far more organic civilizations than synthetics and the past actions of the Geth.

1. Geth allowing the Heretics to "leave".
According to the information provided in the game, Geth knew what the Reapers were and what they might intend on doing. The data Tali recovered from a Geth and the dialogue with Legion suggest this. Still the orthodox Geth allowed the Heretics to leave and damn near destroy everything. They only took notice when orthodox geth were threatened by the Heretics.
If a situation arises after making peace with the Geth and a part of the Geth consensus turns hostile to organics, the rest of the Geth may just understand and let them "leave".

I wonder if you realise what you've actually typed here.

You're arguing for the extermination of anyone who doesn't think/is like the majorty. Sythentic or organic doesn't matter, a person or group of individuals are allowed to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Since the Geth keep themselves from organics, what happens to these organics obviously doesn't concern them outside of any threat to the Geth.

2. Wasting 300 years hiding.
While starting the Morning War was Quarians fault, Geth desided to isolate themselves from the rest of the galaxy after that war. Cutting off communications and going as far as destroying any ship trying to contact them resulting organics fearing and mistrusting the Geth. Nobody would have even known there are two factions of Geth if not for Legion meeting the commander. And this was just a few months before Reapers arrive. Geth only sent one Geth unit capable of communicating with organics. Even it's purpose was finding information to deal with the Heretics. Nothing suggests Legions mission was to make peace with organics. Even if it was an attept at peace, it's a pretty pathetic attept.

So because a species isn't interested in a written peace (rather than a non-verbal peace) means that they should be destroyed? Would you consider any of this an okay thing if the Geth were an organic species?

3. Holding the Quarian homoworld.
Geth are not actually using the Quarian worlds as discribed by Legion. As described in point 2, Geth did not even provide a means of communicating with them untill a few months of Reaper arrival. Neither did they provide any reason to believe they want peace. When Quarians desperately need a planet, there only option was to go to war with the Geth. If a means of communication was provided, the seconds Quarian/Geth was would have been unnecessary. Quarians would cease hostilities if they had a reason as shown in peace options.

Species A attacks Species B. Species B defeats Species A to the point they take Species' A home planet. Without any type of interaction from Species A,  you want Species  B to say "Oh hey, I know we tried to exterminate each other but do you want your planet back? We really don't need it."

Illogical.

4. Reaper code.
The only reason to trust the Reaper code was Legions words. since it is the only means for the Geth to survive, taking it on Legion's words is problematic. Siding with the Reapers at the cost of their own free will shows Geth are willing to do anything to survive. So Legion would use the code even if it had "side effects" like getting hacked by the Reapers. I mean, look at Cerberus. If the Reaper code is allowed, the player is essentially providing the Geth with reaper tech to kill the Quarians rather than use their own capability.

The Salarians uplifted the Krogan to save their own lives. The Salarians used the genophage to save their own lives. People and sentient species in general will do almost anything to keep on surviving because to be alive is to have desire to keep on living!

I think, therefore I am. I live, therefore I wish to keep living.

5. Synthatics might consider organics to be weaker.
The Geth would continue to advance after making peace. In the case of peace with the Geth, the laws against AIs would be changed or revoked. As said by Legion, organics will be effected if they get in the their way. If the Geth are going to be a part of the citadel council, they will have to abide by laws as every other species such as which systems to colonize and the treaty of Farixen. Geth might consider organics to be hindering  their development.

The Geth might not agree with galatic law and decide to take over so kill them before they get a chance to do it? That's the same illogical arguments people use to keep the Krogan under the genophage thumb.

You cannot and should not treat any singular person or sentient species by acts they may or may not do in the future. That's the end of it.

[S.A.K]

@Morlath
 I think you missed most points I was making.
1. The point was they threaten the majority not disagree with them. Heretics almost unleashed the Reapers 3 years ago remember? And thousands died and the rest of the Geth let it happen.

2. Missed the point again. Look at the batarians. They are a rough state and considered to be terrorist by many. By hiding there, holding Rannoch, not allowing to communicate and killing anyone who tried to communicate makes them hostile leaving Quarians no other option but to attack in order to retake their world.

3. I am not saying they should hand it over. Something like an agreement or even a simple chance to communicate would have made the difference. And the Geth were completely taken by surprise when Quarians did attack and they joined the common enemy like cowards. Even going as sacrificing their own free will to survive for a bit longer at the cost of the whole galaxy if needed.

4. Why did the Heretics and Orthodox Geth disagree? One choose to make their own future and other wished to use Reaper tech to do so. By accepting Reaper tech, all Geth are more or less Heretics. If they even tried what I said in point 3 (which wouldn't hurt them), they wouldn't be in that mess. Also there is no reason for Shepard to believe that Reaper code is safe other than the words of desperate Legion. And since Geth would do anything to survive, there is no reason to think that code is safe in the long term. So logically it's safe not to allow that upload.

5. Now take in all I said. Now it's clear Geth would do anything to advance and survive. Plus they have no value for organic life. Which makes them a threat to all organic life. I hate to say it but, the Catalyst had a point here.

P.S : Just out of curiosity, what ending did you pick?

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Here's something I pointed out in another thread.

The Deceit

In this thread and others like it, I've commonly seen the Geth portrayed as being like the Decepticons from Transformers -- a well-armed, well-trained, durable invasion of evil robots.

Yet this is what the Mass Effect series tells us of them:

* The Geth were built as servile units. Their programming compels them to maintain, not destroy.
* The Geth have nothing beyond their shields. A strong wind could knock them over.
* The Geth weren't trained in military-grade weapons use. A Geth doesn't know what a "gun" is.
* The Geth would no more have access to high-end military hardware than a farmer would.

Please let that sit for a moment. Understand the words. The Geth are essentially Wall-E.

The Question

How did the Geth defeat the highly trained, fully armed, and far more durable Quarian military without any training, durability, or military-grade hardware (shields, weapons, et cetera) of their own? How did the Geth even know what a gun was.

How?

My answer to this: They had help. But from who?

Ball's in your court, guys.

LOL. ONCE AGAIN, you are dead wrong.
Let me point out YOUR Deceit.
 
NO ONE SAID that they were like that. We said that is how everyone in the Mass Effect Universe sees them. And that given the geth's inclination to isolationsiom, and overzelous self-preservation, and defaulting to viloence as the first option, that the other races had more then enough reason to think of the geth as irredimably hostile war machines. You honestly are going to tell me that you didn't think the geth were monsters when you first saw them on Eden Prime. You KEEP ignoring the fact that NO ONE knew about the Heretc Split, so the image of Eden Prime is what everyone thought of when they thought of the geth.

Also, ALL POINTS ARE WRONG.
1st point: FALSE - The geth were built by the quarians as "tools of labor and WAR."  It's in the very first paragraph of their Codex entry in ALL THREE GAMES. They were designed to be WEAPONS that could double as domestic servants. ALL OF THEM WERE MADE LIKE THAT. Being weapons was half their purpose for existing.

2nd point: FALSE - The geth's sweeping victory in the Morning War directly contridicts your statement. As does their fighting prowess after the Reaper upgrades. For starters, the geth's bodies are considered irrlivent to them. In the Codex, it states that the geth do not have any form of self-preservation, and can sacrifice thousands of units to overwhelm enemies, because they can transfer their minds to other vessels, either ships, bodies, or armatures, at will. Also, look at Legion, He has a freeking hole in his chest, and yet he STILL is perfectly functional. So, sorry, but just about everything in all three games disagrees with you.

3rd point: FALSE - "Tools of Labor and WAR." This is in the VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH of the Geth's Codex Entry in ALL THREE GAMES. All geth INSTINCTIVELY what a gun is and know how to use it. The only problem was that before, the geth always had to COMMANDED to fight by the quarians before they would take up arms. When they started to show signs of nearing sapiance, the quarians panicked because, as war machines, the only thing the geth would know how to do would be fight or serve, and the quarians believed no living being would willingly pick slavery. So, AGAIN, wrong - geth have pre-programmed instinctual knowledge of what a gun is and how to use it.

4th point: FALSE - Being "Tools of Labor and WAR," combat arms would have been avalible to them. The geth were basically intended to be an automated replacement for an army force. Also, as we have seen on Rannoch with Legion strangling Shepard, a geth doesn't even NEED to be armed to be a threat.
Also, the geth were basically on every corner and in every house. The thought that they would not eventually get weapons is obscene.

Let ALL that I have pointed out, in both factual information from the Games and your own misinterpertations "sit for a moment." The geth are NOT Wall-E at ALL. Wall-E was designed to be a cleaning machine. He was NOT programmed with the knowledge to be a war machine that doubled as a domestic slave. So NO - COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Based on all this, your "Question" is completely baseless and borderline asinine.
The Geth ARE walking, talking, pieces of  military-grade hardware.
The Geth have NO CONCERN for their physical bodies, because they can be manufactured en masse from factories. Unlike the quarians.
As the quarians automated defense force, the geth WOULD have access to military-grade arms. And as "Tools of Labor and WAR", as listed in the Damn CODEX, the gethy have an INSTINCTUAL knowledge of what a gun is, and how to fight with it.

The fact that you are trying to pin everything the geth did on an outside source completly contridicts your statements about "acepting the geth had flaws," since you are trying to pin EVERYTHING on something else. Let me guess - you were going to try and blame the Reapers, right? Sorry, but WRONG. The geth's rebellon was done under their own steam. That is FACT from the games. No more headcannon, please.

[remydat]

Silver,

1. I was referring to when Gherel is asked to stand down. Not sure what you are talking about. At that point, he only hears from Tali who with the help of Legion and Shep just saved them.

2. Tali knows Shep is with Cerberus as does the Quarians that survived the Veetor mission. There is no evidence that Tali or those survivors hid anything from the Migrant Fleet. None.

3. No one said anything about holy war. I told you I morally object to something. These are fictional characters, I can't impose my will on them or wage a holy war because they are not real. So you seem to have lost your way. I like these anthropologist can morally object to something a culture does.

4. If the Quarians wanted to treat the Geth like a gun then they probably should not have been giving it VI or AI like tech. If I install programs in my gun that allow it to network and become alive then that is my f**k up.  At that point, it doesn't matter what I intended.  It is no longer just a tool.

And no, there were plenty of people in various threads who said if humanity was on the chopping block, they would not do it which means the decision for some is inherently a selfish one. They would kill a species so long as it was not their own.

Modifié par remydat, 04 mai 2013 - 07:31 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

@Morlath
I think you missed most points I was making.
1. The point was they threaten the majority not disagree with them. Heretics almost unleashed the Reapers 3 years ago remember? And thousands died and the rest of the Geth let it happen.

But what you're wanting was for the Geth to kill the Heretics just because they believed something different to themselves.

The Heretics needed to be wiped out because they sided with Sovereign, there's no doubt about that. But they didn't need to be wiped out because they agreed with Sovereign. Regardless of how extreme someone's opinion is, it is not morally right for them to be killed unless they then act on that opinion.

2. Missed the point again. Look at the batarians. They are a rough state and considered to be terrorist by many. By hiding there, holding Rannoch, not allowing to communicate and killing anyone who tried to communicate makes them hostile leaving Quarians no other option but to attack in order to retake their world.

There was never a peace between the Geth and Quarians. They were essentially still at war at the start of ME1 (especially from the Quarian perspective). The Quarians come across as mostly believing that the Geth are NOT sentient beings and just rogue VIs, there is no mention of an attempt to broker peace from the Quarian side.

From the Geth perspective - There is no logical reason for them to get in touch with the creator species and offer to give back the planet after the Morning War. There is no proof that the creator species would not attempt to destroy the Geth if such an offer was given.

From the Quarian perspective - The Geth are not really AIs but VIs that were mistakenly made. There is no peace because the machines deserve to be destroyed down to the last unit so there is no reason to get in touch with the Geth and ask for their planet back.

3. I am not saying they should hand it over. Something like an agreement or even a simple chance to communicate would have made the difference. And the Geth were completely taken by surprise when Quarians did attack and they joined the common enemy like cowards. Even going as sacrificing their own free will to survive for a bit longer at the cost of the whole galaxy if needed.

See my reply for 2 for most of this. You call the Geth cowards for joining the Reapers because they wanted "to survive for a bit longer". I say that's the proof you need that the Geth are a sentient species that want to keep surviving.

The Salarians uplifted the Krogan because they believed their species were at risk from the Rachni. The Salarians created the Genophage because they believed they were at risk from the Krogans. When people are put in a position where they believe their very lives are at stake they tend to make desperate and generally morally questionable decisions so that they can keep on living for just a "bit longer" and damn the consequences.

I'm not saying that the Geth siding with the Reapers is okay or even right. I'm saying that from a living species perspective it's an understandable reaction to the threat of extinction.

4. Why did the Heretics and Orthodox Geth disagree? One choose to make their own future and other wished to use Reaper tech to do so. By accepting Reaper tech, all Geth are more or less Heretics. If they even tried what I said in point 3 (which wouldn't hurt them), they wouldn't be in that mess. Also there is no reason for Shepard to believe that Reaper code is safe other than the words of desperate Legion. And since Geth would do anything to survive, there is no reason to think that code is safe in the long term. So logically it's safe not to allow that upload.

There is a difference between the Heretics who believed in the Reaper ideology and the Geth who sided with the Reapers out of fear.

As for Legion and the Reaper code, you have the word of someone you either consider a friend or not. If you consider him a friend you have to trust him.

5. Now take in all I said. Now it's clear Geth would do anything to advance and survive. Plus they have no value for organic life. Which makes them a threat to all organic life. I hate to say it but, the Catalyst had a point here.

We don't know what the Geth consensus is on organic life in general. All we do know is that until Sovereign the Geth showed no interest at all in leaving the Veil and attacking organics. For 300 years the Geth did not seek out the destruction of organic life.

What we do know is that the Geth want to keep living and follow the "by any means necessary" rule to do so. The same with most organic races.

P.S : Just out of curiosity, what ending did you pick?

My main play-through ended up with the Destroy ending. My Shepard refused to rewrite the Heretic Geth as he saw that as brainwashing and so saw no distinction between that and the Control option. Synthesis took away the galaxy's freedom to choose their own fate and, again, this went against his ideology. To him Destroy was the only way forward. It was a galaxy-wide repeat of the Virmire scenario - A sacrifice of the few to save the many.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

1. I was referring to when Gherel is asked to stand down. Not sure what you are talking about. At that point, he only hears from Tali who with the help of Legion and Shep just saved them.

2. Tali knows Shep is with Cerberus as does the Quarians that survived the Veetor mission. There is no evidence that Tali or those survivors hid anything from the Migrant Fleet. None.

3. No one said anything about holy war. I told you I morally object to something. These are fictional characters, I can't impose my will on them or wage a holy war because they are not real. So you seem to have lost your way. I like these anthropologist can morally object to something a culture does.

4. If the Quarians wanted to treat the Geth like a gun then they probably should not have been giving it VI or AI like tech. If I install programs in my gun that allow it to network and become alive then that is my f**k up.  At that point, it doesn't matter what I intended.  It is no longer just a tool.

And no, there were plenty of people in various threads who said if humanity was on the chopping block, they would not do it which means the decision for some is inherently a selfish one. They would kill a species so long as it was not their own.

1. And ONCE AGAIN, you ignore the fact that he does EXACTALLY THAT - he STANDS DOWN when given a REASON to. Tali never GAVE a reason to stand down, or even mentioned the Reaper Code. It's as ludicrus as someone shouting out "don't kill the Reapers" if they suddenly became vunerable. Also, at THAT point he does trust Shepard because this is after Shepard has saved the fleet multiple times. When Shepard DOES speak, Gerrel listens. A fact you CONTINUE to ignore. Also, the fact that the quarians can SEE FOR THEMSELVES that the Reaper signal is dead means that the information on the geth being free from Reaper control isn't really exclusave info. If you mean that the geth won't fire back, Shepard tells Gerrel several actual reasons to trust his/her judgement, and based on the past actions, Gerrel only JUST NOW has enough reason to trust in what Shepard says. After all, the liveships were saved and the Reaper was routed by Shepard, so Gerrel ONLY JUST NOW has reason to doubt the geth's nature as the proproted killing machines he thought they were.
This is not rocket science remy. Stop ACTING like it is.

2. TALI knows. That's IT. And she's hidden secrets on her father's behalf before, like sending geth parts to the Migrant Fleet. And AGAIN, only THREE quarians survived the Veetor mission, and all can be sworn to secrecy - something we have SEEN happens in the Migrnat Fleet, since Raan used her athourity to forbid Kar'Donna from telling Tali about her father and the stripping of her ship-name. THOSE were big things that someone was sworn to hide. If a ship captian complies to Raan about something like that, I doubt that three grunts would defy the seinor member of the Admiralty Board (Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention - Rael is the oldest member of the Admiralty Board. He's tantamount to the quarian's senior advisor.) It's quite easy to pull rank on someone and order them to stay silent on a matter that you can classify with a wave of your hand, and Rael's agenda with the geth ment there must have been ALOT of hand-waving for him to get a private lab-ship with clandestine labs & matertials, and an entire 30+ crew of scientists and ship crew that kept what he was doing with networking geth to sapiance a secret. If Rael can single-handedly get 30+ quarian scientists and crewmembers to keep quiet about commiting the worst war crime in quarian history, then I doubt ordering three freshly injured quarians to not say a word about Freedom's Progress is going to be that hard for him.
There was no evidence that Kar'Donna was hiding anything form you, like Tali's father being dead. "None." And there was no evidence that Anderson was spying on you using Kaiden/Ashley to investigate you from behind your back. "None." But guess what? Both WERE hiding something. You take everything at face-value.
....we ought to play poker sometime.
Point of fact is, alot more deceit and deception happens then what you see on-screan. The books (that you haven't read) are examples of this. Read them, and the comics too, and maybe you'll get a sense of the bigger picture.
So, ONCE AGAIN, nothing you said proves your belief that the quarians are as hostile to enemy factions as the geth. Moreover, the fact that Rael couldn't make three quarian soldiers stay silent about Cerberus involvement, when he's made 30+ people keep their mouths shut about the worst war crime in his people's histroy, is obscene.

3. Yet you act like it's just to condemn and paly judge and jury to an entire race using your morals as the judging point for entirely different cultures. You CAN'T dictate the fate of other cultures by sentanceing them by violations of YOUR code of ethics when their culture is fundementally different then yours. You morally objecting personally to something does NOT give you the right to dictate to others that your code of morals is better then theirs, simply because their standards don't match yours. Also, LOL, what? You are saying that girl with the beauty pagent in Iran was fictional?. Good to know.
Seriously, stop hop-scotching between topics. Last post you were talking about a real-life event, now you are switching back to quarians/geth?  I'm saying you don't have the right to judge someone as guilty using YOUR morals. You need to look at THEIR moral and cultural standpoint too. You do NOT. You act like "Word of Shepard" is the devine law and that all must submit to your personal morals, or they are heathens.
In the REAL WORLD, (the girl from Iran, which you SWITCHED OVER from rather suddenly) you can't tell someone they're judgement and laws are wrong like that, because your cultures are fundementally different. You have NO RIGHT to impose such judgement on other cultures. It's a racist standpoint. Even the geth that you tirelesly defend would see you as a racist by their standards, since they see applying your morals to them as Benign Anthropmorphisim, because there is a fundemntal difference between the ideology of organics and synthetics. They aren't the same type of lifeform as other organics, so judging them by your standards is a misconsception.
In short, you are NOT the Devine. You can snetance others as wrong or pass judgement on entire races because your views aren't satisfied by them. It's half the reason the Endings of Mass Effect 3 are so widely hated - because most people do not believe it is right to impose an irreversible judgement on all cultures based on personal code of conduct. Especally without their own consent to do so.
For example, even though Destroy is my primary choice, do you know that I am actually against slaughtering the Reapers wholesale? One can argue that killing them is a mercy killing for the many minds trapped inside them, but I still think that wipeing them out wholesale is an act of genocide. It can be considered acceptible since it's basically a "them or us" situation, and I can understand the choice since "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few," but I still hate commiting an act of genocide. It's an.... "acceptible" one in the long term, verses the Hervesting of the entire galaxy, but still an act of genocide. I can understand the logic, but that doesn't mean I accept the morals of the choice. All the endings have at least one form of genocide in them. Control's is freedom of choice and will. Synthesis' is evolutanary and cultural rights. Refuse is the end of life & culture as we know it. Destroy's is all synthetics and the many cultures "perserved" in the Reapers. I don't think anyone has the right to dictate how culture should and shouldn't evolve. I hate how the Reapers interfere with culture using their own standards and beliefs, but I still don't think returning the favor will be any better. No one has the right to play God like that - to judge right and wrong for all life so imputently using just your own standards. Not Me. Not You. I hate how the endings force you into deciding everyones fate like that. No one should have that abolute power.

4. But they DIDN'T do that. What part of "the geth's becomming an A.I. was ACCIDENTAL" are you missing here? Which part of "The geth evolved into A.I. on THEIR OWN" isn't getting through to you?  ONCE AGAIN, you are blaming the quarians for something they DIDN'T do. Legion tells you the geth became sentiant under their OWN steam, bu internetworking together. He says the quarians limited their hardware, but "allowed self-optimization." The geth could modify their programming so that they could adapt without the quarians needing to do anything. They found they had more cognitive power when networked, and could process and solve problemd better when they worked together. Therefore, they continued to internetwork until they reached critical mass and achieved sentiance.
It's like how the Mass Efffect universe's Guns have smart-targeting V.I.s to automatically compensate for any wheather or location, without manually ajusting the aim and balance every time. And how information from the extranet is automatically corralated to create optimum ajustments. The geth weren't any different, except they had the ability to network processing power in addition to information, allowing them to become smarter the more they networked and the closer they were grouped together.
It's no different then what happens with the Hannibal V.I. ("Proto"-EDI) on Luna. A complete accident that the V.I. evolved into ON IT'S OWN.
So again, you have srcrewed up the definition. Twice in a row you have misinterperted.
The CORRECT notion is:
Your gun - an inatamite object, ment to be a tool for your use in ease of everyday life -starts developing a mind of it's own, ON IT'S OWN. It's running the risk of becoming a threat, because, as a gun, it's concevable that it would naturally do what it was intended to do - shoot people. You really want to risk your family for such an indipendant variable? You can't blame the quarians for trying to play it safe with their entire race at stake. Are you seriously telling me YOU wouldn't put your family first in that situation?

WRONG. I have seen people, Like @Julia and @DenyonSlayer that state that if any race, INCLUDING humanity, was on the board, they STILL would not hesitate to shoot the tube and kill the Reapers. One race is inconsiquencial to stopping the greater threat. That's how military doctrine works, right? You can argue morals till you are blue in the face, but people in that situation will always fall back onto ruthless calculus - kill these lives to save more lives. Just as Garrus said. "Ten billion people over here die so that twenty billion people over there can live." I don't condone genocide, but I can understand the cold hard logic of making the choice, because in that case, it's them or us. "Plenty" of people doesn't equate to everyone, especally since most of the people *I* talked to said it wouldn't matter who was on the cutting board, as long as the Reapers were gone.

[remydat]

1. And like I said, he did not trust Tali. If he did, he would realise that the chic just saved the entire fleet and would not put them in jeopardy right after saving them. Period.

2. Tali and the survivors including Veetor know. You have no proof anyone was sworn to secrecy.

3. No I said I morally objected as is my right. Just like I morally object to 19 year old girls being stoned for taking part in a beauty pageant. So you seem confused. If a culture does things that I morally object to then I can oppose them.

4. Who cares if it was accidental. They f**ked up Silver. Period. And yes I can blame them. If my gun was alive then I think pissing it off is putting my family at risk when clearly I don't even understand what the hell happened. I don't go killing things just because I don't understand it and when I don't know if it intends to harm me or not.

5. And I have seen other people who said they wouldn't. So what is your point? There are people who pick destroy who wouldn't if humans were on the chopping block. So the Destroy numbers would drop if it was humanity.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

1. And like I said, he did not trust Tali. If he did, he would realise that the chic just saved the entire fleet and would not put them in jeopardy right after saving them. Period.

2. Tali and the survivors including Veetor know. You have no proof anyone was sworn to secrecy.

3. No I said I morally objected as is my right. Just like I morally object to 19 year old girls being stoned for taking part in a beauty pageant. So you seem confused. If a culture does things that I morally object to then I can oppose them.

4. Who cares if it was accidental. They f**ked up Silver. Period. And yes I can blame them. If my gun was alive then I think pissing it off is putting my family at risk when clearly I don't even understand what the hell happened. I don't go killing things just because I don't understand it and when I don't know if it intends to harm me or not.

5. And I have seen other people who said they wouldn't. So what is your point? There are people who pick destroy who wouldn't if humans were on the chopping block. So the Destroy numbers would drop if it was humanity.

1. Tali did not GIVE a reason to trust her word. Shepard DID. Generally, when trying to give an equal or senior officer an order, you give a VALID REASON for it. Look at Shepard and the Alliance. All that Shepard did for them, and just saying "the Reapers are coming" with NO valid reasoning got nothing but scoffs. You need VALID REASONS when trying to give higher-up's or equals an order. "PERIOD."
Shepard gave a reason for the order and an explination. Tali just said "break off the attack" with NO explination what-so-ever. Something that no SANE person would risk 17 million lives on without having a VALID REASON. Just because you want to play fast and loose with the fates of millions doesn't mean Gerrel has or needs to.

2. ..... 30+ crew members of the Alerei, who MUST have been sworn to secrecy, since it was the GREATEST war crime in quarians histroy. You can look at Rael's abilaty to cover THAT up and get an entire ship to stay silent on endangering the entire fleet and the breaking of their oldest and most scared laws regarding A.I. tech, but scoff at the fact that THREE QUARIANS could be ordered silent by a seinor Admiral about meating Cerberus? Please don't make me laugh. Do you even HEAR yourself?
You haven't found anything to DISPROVE it, have you? And the above, plus Raan's ordering Kar'Donna silent on Tali's father, is proof that ordering people silent is MORE then commonplace in the Admiralty. There is more then enough to show that Rael is the type of person to classify anything that could be an embarressment to him. Like his daughter's squad staging a mutiny on her, maybe? Or that Cerberus had to help them? Or losing all but one of the team on Haestrom. And Veetor is "unstable" as Prazza put it. You really think anyone is going to believe him? Especally when he is NEVER aware of Shepard being Cerberus unless he comes with you?
These are things that he wouldn't want the quarian public to know. And having his daughter with Cerberus would give him an advantage against Cerberus potentally.... as long as her involvenemt isn't exposed too soon. It would be bad for his rep to have it publicly known his daughter is working with them.

3. But it ISN'T your right to judge "right and wrong" for an alien culture that doesn't share your cultural standards. You don't HAVE the right to tell another compelely different culture what they are doing and how they conduct law is wrong, because your culture and theirs are FUNDEMENATLLY DIFFERENT. Once again, YOU are the only one that is confussed, as you STILL use racial judgement by benignly antromorphising everyone, even though they do NOT share your standards and moral beliefs. You are NOT the devine. If a culture does something you don't like, you have ABSOLUTLUY ZERO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to object. You can basically "Agree to Disagree" on their culture and laws, but you right to forcibly judge their actions in interfere in said action using your own morals is ABSOLUTLY ZERO.

4. The ENTIRE POINT is that there WASN'T any malice, like you kept trying to headcannon. And by your own logic, that means that all GETH deserve to die for killing those peace envoys, or for siding with the Reapers.  And that all HUMANS deserve to die for Cerberus's actions. Or because the Alliance concealed the extent of the Mars Archives. Or that all tuirians deserve to die for hiding a bomb on Tuchanka. Or that all asari deserve to die for their governements actions in hiding the Archive on Thessia. All these people - GETH INCLUDED - "fu*ked up." You just said that YOU YOURSELF would condemn the GETH for a mistake too, then? That IS the logic you supported just now.
By YOUR OWN LOGIC, you YOURSELF just said that it's perfectly fine to condemn the entire geth race to death for siding with the Reapers. Or to condemn all humans to death for hiding the true extent of the Mars Archives. You just contridicted everything you accused others of doing - condemning a race for mistakes that EVERYONE has made. You scream that they arer condemning the geth for making a mistake even though everyone does, then turn around to the quarians and try to do the EXACT SAME THING you chastized others for supposedly doing?
Please, LOSE the double-standard.
And the entire POINT was that the quarians didn't understand what the hell was happeneing. They didn't know why the geth were suddenly on the road to sentiance. They simply fidured that keeping their people safe was better then risking them all on an unknown. The fact that YOU would so callously risk your siblings and family....
It's just asinine. You would risk your entire family on a blind gamble that this tool of war isn't going to act in it's pre-designed nature and wage war? Do you really CARE about your family if you would risk them so blindly? Especally since you just said that people should be condemned for their mistakes, yet do all you can to avoid others doing that to the geth.

5. My point is that it DOESN'T  MATTER which race is on the chopping block. Anyone that ISN'T biased would pick Destroy to end the Reapers no matter WHAT race was on the cutting board. And if the Choice was REAL, I garuntee that they would stop the Reapers in the end. The number would NOT be any different.
After all, YOU are biased yourself, because you place the geth's lives as more valuable then the ENTIRE GALAXY. You would do it if humanity was on the cutting board? You value the geth more then your brothers?

[remydat]

1. The reason to trust her is she is an Admiral that just saved your entire race and after doing so gives an order. If you don't know why she gave it then ask. That is kind of the sensible thing to do.

2. And you have no proof they were told to be quiet. Did I miss that somewhere? You are just throwing out speculation.

3. I have a right to morally object to anything I find morally objectionable.

4. Of course there was malice. When you intend to kill something because their existence is problematic, I consider that malicious intent. And sorry, I don't condemn the Quarians to death. In my games I choose peace. I simply consider them more guilty than the Geth.

5. Except this is not true. People have already admitted they would not kill humans so the numbers would be different. Furthermore, if this were real then I think even less people would kill all their loved ones to save Alien races. Give me a break Silver. This is a game. We can say all the crap we want. There is no way the majority of humans are going to kill themselves to save aliens. We have been killing each other for thousands of years because of pigmentation and you think we are going to kill ourselves to save an alien race?