452 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K

Who said anything about as slaves?  That is you and the Quarians logic not the Geth.  The Geth served them pre-MW and they serve them post-Rannoch peace.  That is what the game shows me.   A soldier serves his country all his life.  He is not a slave because he does so willingly.  It is his job but is not the only thing that defines him.  A waiter serves.  A butler serves, etc.  Millions or billions of people have chosen to work in professions in which their serve others.  They don't consider themselves slaves.  So I reject you and the Quarians paranoia.  

Umm, except they don't.  When they kill the Quarians in the non-peace option, Shep and the organics still accept them as allies.  Also, the only people that stop firing despite having the power to win is the Geth.  That is in the game.  If you played a game where the Quarians stop shooting without learning they can't win or where the Geth destroy the Quariains when the Quarians stop trying to kill them then post the vid.  Otherwise, the game shows me that the Geth have the power to win and stand down as long as the a**holes stop trying to kill them.  It also shows clearly the organics accept their ships even when they kill the Quarians.

I find it humours you think the Council cares about Quarians dying when they did nothing after billions died in the MW and decided to help the Quarians after the MW by denying them a planet for 300 years and calling them suit rats.  The Council doesn't care about them which makes their continuing to kiss their a** all the more pathetic.

So let me get this straight. You are saying Geth would have just "served" the Quarians after they became self-aware and wouldn't want anything other than that? They wouldn't want a future of their own?
No true sentient being would be satisfied by that.

Excuse me. We were talking about peace option. As in both sides agreed to cease fire. We are talking about Geth serving Quarians again remember? In non-peace options, there is no cease fire agreement to break. Nobody would trust them as allies if they broke the agreement just like that. See the point now?

Also Gerrel stops firing without knowing about the Reaper code. Shepard just tells him Geth are about to return to full strenght and they Geth don't want to fight. They just beat the Geth in full strength few days ago. Thats why the Geth joined the Reapers remember? He would have vaporize Legion from orbit if he's told about the upload.
They also destroy the Geth if they don't Geth Reaper tech.
Now you try showing me when Shepard tells Gerrel about the Reaper code.

P.s : you were trying to say Heretics made their choice because of the Quarians. And I wouldn't be able to answer for a few hours. It's almost 2.00am here.

[S.A.K]

Ryzaki wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
Well congratulations. You killed off two races for no good reason.

*snip*
Might as well pick refusal...

Fail Shepard ftw.

For no good reason? Yes of course because my Shep has metagame logic to know at the end of the game starbrat is gonna show up. That's legit. Yes my Shep knew at the time of Rannoch that starbrat was gonna tell him he needed to sacrifice to Geth to destroy the Reapers. Yep. Totally what happened.

Uh..no. Nice strawman though. I know you highly regard the Quarians but they're not anywhere NEAR as important as the rest of the galaxy (neither are the Geth for that matter which is why I wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice either race to destroy the Reapers).

Nice attempt to try to dreide someone else's way of playing as "fail" though. By the way. I had the best destroy outcome. Some failure.

And on that note thanks for showing me that you were just trying to bait me. Ah well. one more for the ignore list

Hmm ok. So your Shepard saved the Geth without knowing you'll have to kill them to stop the Reapers. I can understand that. But I was talking about you as a person. You obviously know about the ending. I was asking why you as the player made that choice. If you think like that Refusal isn't so bad. Shepard can always think his forces can win conventionally.
I wasn't trying to bait you. Fail Shepard thing was a joke because I thought you were playing along with those smilies and stuff.

[remydat]

S.A.K

I am saying nothing in the game proves otherwise.  Post peace, they serve the Quarians and still build a future.  Those two things are not mutually exclusive.  Just like a soldier has other desires beyond serving his country.  Sentient species do not have to pick either or.

No I was talking about how the Geth had the power to destroy them once the RC was uploaded and they did not.  The Quarians ignored an order to stand down and still shot at the Geth.  If they kill the Geth, no one gives a f**k that they ignored an order to stand down.  So if the Geth had the RC, Shep talks the Quarians down and the Geth decided hey I can't trust these guys and kill them, it would be the exact same as when the Quarians couldn't trust the Geth when the Geth had stopped firing and Tali told them to stand down.  It is a Reaper War.  No one would give a f**k.

No Shep, Tali and Koris all tell Gherel to stand down.  He says negative we can win this war now.  Keep firing.  Shep then says the Geth are about to return to full strength.  If you keep attacking, they will wipe you out.  That can mean only one thing.  The only way they can wipe them out as proven in the game is with the RC.  Gherel would have to be a moron to not know that.  The rest of the paragon speech is for the benefit of other Quarians who may not be as gung ho as Gherel but Gherel has no choice because he knows the only reason Shepard would think the Geth could wipe them out when returned to full strength is because that means the Geth have Reaper Code.  And the Renegdate option Shep simply harps on this fact more.



I am saying the fact the Quarians disowned the Geth is what led the Geth to have to find other reasons to exist.  That is a factual statement from the game made by Legion.  In the absence of being disowned, there is no evidence that the Geth would not have still served their creators.  None.  It doesn't matter if it is 300 years later.  The Heretics are the same Geth, the Quarians abandoned and the same Geth that have tried to find their own reasons to exist ever since.

Modifié par remydat, 20 avril 2013 - 09:08 .

[Ryzaki]

S.A.K wrote...
Hmm ok. So your Shepard saved the Geth without knowing you'll have to kill them to stop the Reapers. I can understand that. But I was talking about you as a person. You obviously know about the ending. I was asking why you as the player made that choice. If you think like that Refusal isn't so bad. Shepard can always think his forces can win conventionally.
I wasn't trying to bait you. Fail Shepard thing was a joke because I thought you were playing along with those smilies and stuff.

I just don't like the Quarians and thus wasn't overly inclined to have them in my game (only ones I did like were Vector? Vetor? Whatever it's spelled and Koris.) And do not bring out the "OMG killing a whole race!" garbage. (Premitive strike because I'm sick of people acting like they don't know the difference between fiction and reality). It's a ficitional race. And I can turn that right back on you with "What about all those nameless mooks you killed in all the games. Even if it's self defense you should feel some remorse." That and the peace solution is meh to me. I like the sacrifice of one or the other. And I pick Destroy because I sure in hell am not picking Synthesis

And only my renedouche would pick control.

Also again Quarians and Geth =/= rest of the galaxy. (Granted I do sometimes pick Refusal depending on the Shep). Refusual results in the cycle being completed that's a lot more damaging than just letting two races die off.

I didn't find that aliens guy pic very funny myself.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 avril 2013 - 09:23 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K

I am saying nothing in the game proves otherwise.  Post peace, they serve the Quarians and still build a future.  Those two things are not mutually exclusive.  Just like a soldier has other desires beyond serving his country.  Sentient species do not have to pick either or.

No I was talking about how the Geth had the power to destroy them once the RC was uploaded and they did not.  The Quarians ignored an order to stand down and still shot at the Geth.  If they kill the Geth, no one gives a f**k that they ignored an order to stand down.  So if the Geth had the RC, Shep talks the Quarians down and the Geth decided hey I can't trust these guys and kill them, it would be the exact same as when the Quarians couldn't trust the Geth when the Geth had stopped firing and Tali told them to stand down.  It is a Reaper War.  No one would give a f**k.

No Shep, Tali and Koris all tell Gherel to stand down.  He says negative we can win this war now.  Keep firing.  Shep then says the Geth are about to return to full strength.  If you keep attacking, they will wipe you out.  That can mean only one thing.  The only way they can wipe them out as proven in the game is with the RC.  Gherel would have to be a moron to not know that.  The rest of the paragon speech is for the benefit of other Quarians who may not be as gung ho as Gherel but Gherel has no choice because he knows the only reason Shepard would think the Geth could wipe them out when returned to full strength is because that means the Geth have Reaper Code.  And the Renegdate option Shep simply harps on this fact more.



I am saying the fact the Quarians disowned the Geth is what led the Geth to have to find other reasons to exist.  That is a factual statement from the game made by Legion.  In the absence of being disowned, there is no evidence that the Geth would not have still served their creators.  None.  It doesn't matter if it is 300 years later.  The Heretics are the same Geth, the Quarians abandoned and the same Geth that have tried to find their own reasons to exist ever since.

My point exactly. There is nothing to say the Heretics made the choice because of the Quarians. Part of the Geth could still accept Reaper tech to make their future in a no MW situation. Just like it happened now.

In none peace options, only information Gerrel get it "Stand down" is it not? And Tali is not his suprerior so She can't order Gerrel to do anything. Nobody sees the Geth as peaceful. Hackett sends Shepard to get the Quarian fleet' not the Geth. As no-one believed in such an allience, it's safe to think Hackett expected Shepard to help Quarians destroy the Geth if needed. If the Geth brake a cease fire agreement moments after it's made nobody would care? Lol! Geth sided with the Reapers and the organics want those things at their back with even less reason to trust them. Hahaha! I dunno how you are making these stupid assumptions...

So Gerrel was to think the Geth are using Reaper tech because Shepard says "they'll wipe you out"? Lol That's a stupid assumption. Or he could be standing down because he can trust Shepard when he says "Geth don't want to fight you".

Read what I said before dude. The Geth see Reapers as gods because of their advancements. Legion says he can understand why others would see them as gods. And you already agreed the Geth would make their own future even in a no MW situation. Can you prove some of the Geth wouldn't accept the gifts of these machine gods? Because you know, Geth are machines. See outside that little box...

[S.A.K]

Ryzaki wrote...
I just don't like the Quarians and thus wasn't overly inclined to have them in my game (only ones I did like were Vector? Vetor? Whatever it's spelled and Koris.) And do not bring out the "OMG killing a whole race!" garbage. (Premitive strike because I'm sick of people acting like they don't know the difference between fiction and reality). It's a ficitional race. And I can turn that right back on you with "What about all those nameless mooks you killed in all the games. Even if it's self defense you should feel some remorse." That and the peace solution is meh to me. I like the sacrifice of one or the other. And I pick Destroy because I sure in hell am not picking Synthesis

And only my renedouche would pick control.

Also again Quarians and Geth =/= rest of the galaxy. (Granted I do sometimes pick Refusal depending on the Shep). Refusual results in the cycle being completed that's a lot more damaging than just letting two races die off.

I didn't find that aliens guy pic very funny myself.

I wouldn't pick synthesis or control myself. So I can understand most of what you did...

[radishson]

Fully emotive species created through organic evolution vs. machines created for service and lacking the ability to sympathize or feel pain? I like the Geth but this shouldn't be a hard decision for anyone. Most of the time arguments in support of the Geth boil down to "Legion was cool!! The quarians were, like, super lame!!!". There is no logical or ethical reason to side with the Geth.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

.

You implied all council races and each individual condones the actions of the Council and all previous councils,not I.  As I was stating the justification for the punishment and condemning of each individual organic for the actions of a few organics is "silly". When stating for you to prove/address how you considered Humanity.Volus, Hannaar etc condone the actions of the current and previous councils. Or how do you feel about non council races that have never attacked synthetic life forms. You stated Phatose covered it. As well as no proof to the silence you state exist. Examples of Organics also accept Synthetics is available in game as well.

Your right,the Geth do not feel as they have wronged the Quarians. I did state that as well,but confused my meaning. They may understand how the Quarians feel wrong,and why some may feel hate or fear. As the Geth have no remorse nor emotion,and potentially did not separate Innocents,children,and actual threats in the Billion man slaughter and 300 years of isolation and violence. So they have little to no intention to give Rannoch back to the Quarians,yet this helps how? A flaw in their hardware,Obviously a poor interpretation of Organic life. As well as very wrong. What reason has been given to not hate or fear the Geth? Not any the Geth have actually given.

Prove it is an emotion and not a calculation of Shepard's words against what is(care taking) and what is being stated. Legion also states he does not feel emotion. I did not say it,the Geth did and you choose to ignore it. Perhaps. Lol Is a potential. The statement is also in reference to memorials of the Dead. Perhaps the Geth choose to remember their beginning and the events on the time. Deaths,Birth w.e. Still not an emotion. A historically documented event. Can you give a good reason to just let the planet die or erase the accounts of the event from their database? Is it possible to remember the fallen,to stand at a memorial,or clean something for someone without feeling any emotion? Yes easily so. It in no way does it prove the Geth have emotion.

They are not Innocent.

Let me clarify it one more time,as I have many times already. "What do you want the Geth to do?" Accept responsibility for their actions. They have no one to blame but themselves.  Everyone is responsible for their actions. You believe this or should as you continue to condemn the Quarians for theirs. One should not expect something when one is not trying to achieve that thing and is actually doing things to avoid such a thing. Peaceful Relations. Isolation and Murder is not an attempt or sign of peaceful intentions.

shodiswe wrote...
 how can you make peace when one party refuses to even explore the possibility?

You mean the Geth right? The Group that killed Billions of Organics,continued to kill any & all organic they pleased for the next 300 years,and the same group that chose Isolation and cut all communication with organics with the use of violence among other devious tactics.

Modifié par Rip504, 21 avril 2013 - 10:31 .

[silverexile17s]

Rip504 wrote...

remydat wrote...

.

You implied all council races and each individual condones the actions of the Council and all previous councils,not I.  As I was stating the justification for the punishment and condemning of each individual organic for the actions of a few organics is "silly". When stating for you to prove/address how you considered Humanity.Volus, Hannaar etc condone the actions of the current and previous councils. Or how do you feel about non council races that have never attacked synthetic life forms. You stated Phatose covered it. As well as no proof to the silence you state exist. Examples of Organics also accept Synthetics is available in game as well.

Your right,the Geth do not feel as they have wronged the Quarians. I did state that as well,but confused my meaning. They may understand how the Quarians feel wrong,and why some may feel hate or fear. As the Geth have no remorse nor emotion,and potentially did not separate Innocents,children,and actual threats in the Billion man slaughter and 300 years of isolation and violence. So they have little to no intention to give Rannoch back to the Quarians,yet this helps how? A flaw in their hardware,Obviously a poor interpretation of Organic life. As well as very wrong. What reason has been given to not hate or fear the Geth? Not any the Geth have actually given.

Prove it is an emotion and not a calculation of Shepard's words against what is(care taking) and what is being stated. Legion also states he does not feel emotion. I did not say it,the Geth did and you choose to ignore it. Perhaps. Lol Is a potential. The statement is also in reference to memorials of the Dead. Perhaps the Geth choose to remember their beginning and the events on the time. Deaths,Birth w.e. Still not an emotion. A historically documented event. Can you give a good reason to just let the planet die or erase the accounts of the event from their database? Is it possible to remember the fallen,to stand at a memorial,or clean something for someone without feeling any emotion? Yes easily so. It in no way does it prove the Geth have emotion.

They are not Innocent.

Let me clarify it one more time,as I have many times already. "What do you want the Geth to do?" Accept responsibility for their actions. They have no one to blame but themselves.  Everyone is responsible for their actions. You believe this or should as you continue to condemn the Quarians for theirs. One should not expect something when one is not trying to achieve that thing and is actually doing things to avoid such a thing. Peaceful Relations. Isolation and Murder is not an attempt or sign of peaceful intentions.

shodiswe wrote...
 how can you make peace when one party refuses to even explore the possibility?

You mean the Geth right? The Group that killed Billions of Organics,continued to kill any & all organic they pleased for the next 300 years,and the same group that chose Isolation and cut all communication with organics with the use of violence among other devious tactics.

Actually, the "no exploration of peace" thing was done by BOTH sides.
Tali, went to the admirlas with Legion presant through communication. They offered trying for peace, appearantly shortly after the end of ME2, right after Tali returned to the fleet and was made an Admiral.
Gerrel discounted the possiblity becaise there was nothing to back up Legion's trustworthiness besides word of mouth. No physical proof that told them Legion was beung sincere.  Legion being isolated from the main collectove didn't help either.
Xen's reasons were stupid, however: she discounted the possibility soley because she didn't see the geth as equal living beings, or that they had any right to stand equal to their "masters."
Raan didn't see anything to show that the geth or quarians could co-habitate with all the bad blood that existed between the two races.
Koris was the only one that beleieved it was worth taking, as he figured that, if there was any chance possibly reclaim Rannoch without having to fight the geth, it shoulc be taken. However, no one else was willing to gamble 17 million lives on the chance the geth might be peaceful. And given the attack on the Citadel, it was a very large "maybe."

And likewise, the geth had no intention to negotiate either, since they pulled Legion back, and subsiquently prevented him from returning Tali's messages. If the geth were open to try negotiating, they would have let Legion return the messages, or resume open communication. The geth did not, likely for the same reasons as the quarians.
So in truth, nither side was actively partcicpating in the negotation departement. So IDK what @shodiswe was talking about.

[remydat]

Rip504

No, I said if they do nothing to stop it then why would the Geth care about their lives?  Just like are you not arguing that because the Geth did not stop the heretics then it is their fault?  This works both ways Rip.  This is how life works.  I am not saying it is right but we need to apply the concept to BOTH sides.  The Heretics went and attacked enemies.  The Geth let it happen.  Certain organic races tried to exterminate the Geth, the other organics let it happen.  Whatever we decide, we need to apply it to BOTH sides.

It is not a poor interpretation because it has been proven right every time until Shep came along.  When presented with data that not all organics are like the Quarians, they Geth engage with Shep.  The Geth are incapable of understanding their emotions.  They likely feel something about the MW but can't articulate it.  Hence they express it via the act of cleaning up the toxins from the MW which they have absolutely no reason to do.  They can survive with the toxins and the only reason they clean them up is for the Quarians.  That is it.  Legion says this and it is the only thing that makes sense TO ME.  Just like Legion can't tell Shep where he used his armor.  He likely feels emotion or a connection to Shep but without the RC, he is not a fully evolved AI and thus can't process his feelings.

And I don't have to prove anything.  This is not stated in the game so it is not fact.  It is my interpretation.  When I think I am stating facts, I will state clearly it is a fact.  When I don't state something clearly as a fact, it is my interpretation of details in the game that are open to interpretation.  You are free to have a different interpretation.

What do you mean accept responsibility for their actions?  They accept the creators hate.  Legion says so already.  You are basically asking them to do something they are incapable of doing without the RC if you expect them to cry for the Quarians.  What does this vague statement even mean?  Give me something tangible that you want them to do and it can't be just give Rannoch back when the Quarians have not proven to them they will not simply rebuild and attack them again.  As Legion says, the Geth cannot solve for peace alone.  So if you are going to make demands of the Geth, I want to hear also what you expect the Quarians to do as well because peace is a two way process.

[remydat]

S.A.K

In a no MW world, the Geth would be serving their creators and their creators are at war with the Reapers.  Makes little sense that they would following the Reapers when their gods would be hurt by it.  Did you miss the Geth choosing to die for people like Creator Megara?  So while anything is possible I suppose, I seriously doubt the Geth side with the Reapers against the Quarians if they had been living together in peace for 300 years.

Tali saved them and then told them to stand down.  Whether she is his superior is irrelevant.  If a soldier saves his entire race and then says stand down then a sensible leader would ask him why before continue to attack. 

The Council doesn't care about the Quarians.  No one sheds a tear for them when they get killed if you let the Geth do it.  Did you miss how the Council races go around calling them suit rats?  Hell even the human C-Sec officer in the credit chit mission basically discriminates against them?  So no, if the Geth wipe out the Quarians then the Council is likely to marvel at the Geth killing proficiency and find it useful in battle against the Reapers.  These a**holes have denied them a planet for 300 years and you think they will care if the Geth finally finish the job.  Nope.  So yeah in the midst of a Reaper War 17 million dead Quarians pales in comparison to the billions they lost and the Council response was allegedly, can we be friends.

Umm, when Shep knows the Quarians were winning until the RC was uploaded then yes his saying stand down and they will wipe you out logically means they have RC.  Then again, Gherel is not the brightest Quarian around since he went to war with a machine race who once sided with the Reapers without apparently considering that if he did they might surprise surprise side with the Reapers.

Like I said, anything is possible.  I simply don't think it is realistically they would chose the Reapers because they ultimately were willing to die for their gods ie the Quarians pre MW.  So I don't see them turning on their gods.  However, that is my opinion and you are free to have your own.  We will never know the truth because unfortunately their gods disowned them.

[Auld Wulf]

remydat wrote...

I am not saying it is right but we need to apply the concept to BOTH sides.

I wish more people were erudite enough to understand this. Empirically neither the Geth or the Quarians are perfect. That's not a slight for which I should be hunted down with torches and pitchforks by overzealous Quarian fans. It's a fact. Religious fervour can get in the way of facts, as it always has. It's almost like Creationism in a way, where you have one side that wants to desperately believe, and facts become irrelevant. The truth is? You can't look at this in a black & white way, there is no us vs. them. The Geth don't represent an absolute evil, the Quarians don't represent an absolute good, and vice versa.

Therefore, both have committed their crimes, both have done much wrong, both have had their monsters (whom I find repugnant, be it Gerrel/Xen or the Heretics), both have their guilt. Therefore both must make reparations, and both must make peace. In ME3, in all of my playthroughs, both chose peace, because both finally came to understand that all the hate, war, xenophobia, and paranoia was pointless. In this story, both have their luminaries (Legion and Koris), and both have their monsters (Gerrel/Xen and the Heretics), both have sought war (Gerrel and the Heretics), both have sought peace (Koris and Legion).

To single out one for destruction is to be as bad as the monsters of both.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 22 avril 2013 - 04:58 .

[Auld Wulf]

radishson wrote...

Fully emotive species created through organic evolution vs. machines created for service and lacking the ability to sympathize or feel pain? I like the Geth but this shouldn't be a hard decision for anyone. Most of the time arguments in support of the Geth boil down to "Legion was cool!! The quarians were, like, super lame!!!". There is no logical or ethical reason to side with the Geth.

Let's see...

1.) You sound like a tween in your dismissal of arguments that you can't understand.

2.) You approve of euthanising races that you don't personally understand, are not familiar with, and can't relate to simply because you find them too alien to live. Some of history's worst monsters would have agreed.

3.) You pee on ethics by saying that ethics only applies to your own people, and not anyone else. Some of history's worst monsters would have agreed.

I... good lord. I don't like having to invoke Godwin's Law but it's just too obvious here to miss, but does anyone else see why I dislike Quarian fans? I love Quarians, I just really dont like their fanclub. Quarian fans tend to be subhuman monsters in their attitudes. Just swap out Geth with "any ethnicity I don't like" and Bob's your Uncle, you have the philosophies of some of history's most truly evil and repugnant villains.

This is what makes me wonder about the racism thing, it really is. I just... gods. You're... augh. Please don't use the word "ethics," as you have no idea what it means. It doesn't deserve to be sullied by you.

Again, I find myself really missing the fanbases of games like Deus Ex and Fallout Tactics. By and large they were better people. Even the ones I disagreed with.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 22 avril 2013 - 05:09 .

[Indy_S]

Wulfie, who are you arguing against?

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K

In a no MW world, the Geth would be serving their creators and their creators are at war with the Reapers.  Makes little sense that they would following the Reapers when their gods would be hurt by it.  Did you miss the Geth choosing to die for people like Creator Megara?  So while anything is possible I suppose, I seriously doubt the Geth side with the Reapers against the Quarians if they had been living together in peace for 300 years.

Only a minority became heretics anyway. I am saying it would still happen as they some Geth would still see Reapers as gods like Legion said.

Tali saved them and then told them to stand down.  Whether she is his superior is irrelevant.  If a soldier saves his entire race and then says stand down then a sensible leader would ask him why before continue to attack. 

The Council doesn't care about the Quarians.  No one sheds a tear for them when they get killed if you let the Geth do it.  Did you miss how the Council races go around calling them suit rats?  Hell even the human C-Sec officer in the credit chit mission basically discriminates against them?  So no, if the Geth wipe out the Quarians then the Council is likely to marvel at the Geth killing proficiency and find it useful in battle against the Reapers.  These a**holes have denied them a planet for 300 years and you think they will care if the Geth finally finish the job.  Nope.  So yeah in the midst of a Reaper War 17 million dead Quarians pales in comparison to the billions they lost and the Council response was allegedly, can we be friends.

I am not talking about them caring about the Quarians and I don't think they will. I am talking about trusting the Geth when they are so easy to betray a cease fire agreement. Sure the Geth could shoot after Quarians stopped firing. That wouldn't help help them much in the long run and Geth know it. Get it now? Cos I can't make that more clear.

Umm, when Shep knows the Quarians were winning until the RC was uploaded then yes his saying stand down and they will wipe you out logically means they have RC.  Then again, Gherel is not the brightest Quarian around since he went to war with a machine race who once sided with the Reapers without apparently considering that if he did they might surprise surprise side with the Reapers.

Yes that. He could interprete that in any number of ways. If he knew Legion was uploading that, Legion would get an orbital strike. It's more likely he believed Shepard about Geth not wanting to fight. And may I point out Legion turn on Shepard when he chooses the Quarians. Quarian who was there accept Shepards choice.

Like I said, anything is possible.  I simply don't think it is realistically they would chose the Reapers because they ultimately were willing to die for their gods ie the Quarians pre MW.  So I don't see them turning on their gods.  However, that is my opinion and you are free to have your own.  We will never know the truth because unfortunately their gods disowned them.

And that's why I said you can't blame the Quarians for everything. They might accept Reapers as gods anyway cos you know, Reapers are about the apex of machine evolution. See my point?

Modifié par S.A.K, 22 avril 2013 - 07:38 .

[remydat]

Sak,

Like I said anything is possible. Let's put it like this, I am saying there is lime an 90 percent chance they would jot but recognize that means there is a 10 percent chance they do. The numbers are not real but the point is I think it is highly unlikely they would have accepted the Reapers in a world with no MW. It is an opinion and you are free to disagree.

And my point is organics know the Quarians and Geth have beef. If one of them kills the other it is irrelevant amidst a Reaper war where you need the survivor's fleet.

Anyone can interpret anything anyway but if he did not infer from Shep's statement that the RC will be back online he is an idiot really. That is the most logical conclusion. There is nothi by I see in his personality that suggests he cares about peace which is why if no mention is made of the Geth wiping rhwn out he continues to shoot at them. This is alsi why when Shep informs him of the split among the Geth, his response is good hopefullu they kill each other and make it easier on us. He is a war hawk.

And no one blamed the Quarians alone. The heretics are still responsible foe their decision which is why I kill them. Doesn't change the fact they had a role in this mess. Peiple say the treaty of versailles was one of the causes for WWII. That doesn't mean Hitler is blameless.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Sak,

Like I said anything is possible. Let's put it like this, I am saying there is lime an 90 percent chance they would jot but recognize that means there is a 10 percent chance they do. The numbers are not real but the point is I think it is highly unlikely they would have accepted the Reapers in a world with no MW. It is an opinion and you are free to disagree.

Anyone can interpret anything anyway but if he did not infer from Shep's statement that the RC will be back online he is an idiot really. That is the most logical conclusion. There is nothi by I see in his personality that suggests he cares about peace which is why if no mention is made of the Geth wiping rhwn out he continues to shoot at them. This is alsi why when Shep informs him of the split among the Geth, his response is good hopefullu they kill each other and make it easier on us. He is a war hawk.

And no one blamed the Quarians alone. The heretics are still responsible foe their decision which is why I kill them. Doesn't change the fact they had a role in this mess. Peiple say the treaty of versailles was one of the causes for WWII. That doesn't mean Hitler is blameless.

Sure, you can see things that way if you like. But like you said Gerrel isn't the smartest guy around and I don't see punishing the whole race for one guys mistake as ethical. All Geth are equally responsible for everything they done and I don't feel sorry for destroying them. So thats that.

And my point is organics know the Quarians and Geth have beef. If
one of them kills the other it is irrelevant amidst a Reaper war where
you need the survivor's fleet.

As you kept saying organics already don't trust the Geth. As soon as Shep tells Hackett about Geth braking the cease fire and killing all Quarians in the situation you mentioned, no body would want them as allies. Who wants more loose cannons behind them in the middle of the Reaper war? So they'll be lone in the war. Geth are smart enough to know that.

[remydat]

SAK

We can just agreee to disagree on Gherel as I think he clearly understands from Sheps commebts they have RC and you don't.

I think organics would understand the Geth and Quarians have history together just like the Krogan and the Turians. If they screw each other then that is what bitter enemies do. Further it is not a ceasfire if the Geth never agree to it. Shep nor the Quarians can decide a ceasefire for the Geth. Thay have to make that decision themselves.

Finally if you let your leaders wage war on your behalf you are responsible if theit enemies seek to destroy you. That is how it has always worked.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

remydat wrote...

I am not saying it is right but we need to apply the concept to BOTH sides.

I wish more people were erudite enough to understand this. Empirically neither the Geth or the Quarians are perfect. That's not a slight for which I should be hunted down with torches and pitchforks by overzealous Quarian fans. It's a fact. Religious fervour can get in the way of facts, as it always has. It's almost like Creationism in a way, where you have one side that wants to desperately believe, and facts become irrelevant. The truth is? You can't look at this in a black & white way, there is no us vs. them. The Geth don't represent an absolute evil, the Quarians don't represent an absolute good, and vice versa.

Therefore, both have committed their crimes, both have done much wrong, both have had their monsters (whom I find repugnant, be it Gerrel/Xen or the Heretics), both have their guilt. Therefore both must make reparations, and both must make peace. In ME3, in all of my playthroughs, both chose peace, because both finally came to understand that all the hate, war, xenophobia, and paranoia was pointless. In this story, both have their luminaries (Legion and Koris), and both have their monsters (Gerrel/Xen and the Heretics), both have sought war (Gerrel and the Heretics), both have sought peace (Koris and Legion).

To single out one for destruction is to be as bad as the monsters of both.

Except @remydat DOESN'T apply the concept to both sides. He ONLY applies it to the quarians. And does it using incorrect examples. Much like you are.

You are the one that was percicuting the quarians for the actions of the Admirals. I could understand not liking Xen, but Gerrel and Raan acted because there was no other visible choice but War with the geth. They already show that had they known about the option, they would have taken it.
And you are the one that gospelized the geth. Everyone was simply pointing out that they are NOT the gospels that you, @remydat, and @shodiwse believe them to be.

And look at facts. The geth collectively took the Heretic's path in the end by collectovely taking the Reaper Upgrades after the war ended.
And the Heretics did NOT join Sovergien out of hate for orgnaics. They did it because they believed that it was the quickest and most efficant way to improve their species as a whole. So you really can't use the Heretics as an example of "anti-organic" monsters.
Gerrel can't be counted as a monster because he was forced by outside circumstances (Reaper invasion, Geth seemingly unwilling to negotiate) into attacking. AND stands down when he realizes peace IS possible.
Koris is a dreamer. And as I stated before, sometimes blind idealisim can be more harmful in the end. I don't deny his views are appealing, but there is a time and place. The middle of a crisis is nither the time or place to gamble 17 million lives on a chance that one rouge geth might be straight-up with them.

And out of the chice in the "Great Debate" form earlier, you spicifically singled out the quarians. How does that work?

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

radishson wrote...

Fully emotive species created through organic evolution vs. machines created for service and lacking the ability to sympathize or feel pain? I like the Geth but this shouldn't be a hard decision for anyone. Most of the time arguments in support of the Geth boil down to "Legion was cool!! The quarians were, like, super lame!!!". There is no logical or ethical reason to side with the Geth.

Let's see...

1.) You sound like a tween in your dismissal of arguments that you can't understand.

2.) You approve of euthanising races that you don't personally understand, are not familiar with, and can't relate to simply because you find them too alien to live. Some of history's worst monsters would have agreed.

3.) You pee on ethics by saying that ethics only applies to your own people, and not anyone else. Some of history's worst monsters would have agreed.

I... good lord. I don't like having to invoke Godwin's Law but it's just too obvious here to miss, but does anyone else see why I dislike Quarian fans? I love Quarians, I just really dont like their fanclub. Quarian fans tend to be subhuman monsters in their attitudes. Just swap out Geth with "any ethnicity I don't like" and Bob's your Uncle, you have the philosophies of some of history's most truly evil and repugnant villains.

This is what makes me wonder about the racism thing, it really is. I just... gods. You're... augh. Please don't use the word "ethics," as you have no idea what it means. It doesn't deserve to be sullied by you.

Again, I find myself really missing the fanbases of games like Deus Ex and Fallout Tactics. By and large they were better people. Even the ones I disagreed with.

1.) That doesn't refute the point in any constructive way. Try to be a little less condesending. IDK why you think you need to insult these people right off the bat like that.

2.) @radishson isn't the one anrtomorphizing them. Just judging them by their own laws. Legion personally tells you that the majority of the emotional specturum is a mystery to the geth. They can feel remorse for the quarians they killed, but not regret for the actions the took in the war when they drove them off Rannoch. Legion tells you that "mercy" isn't a concept the geth understand, since they spared the last quarians out of a mathmatical incapability to compute the effects of genocide. Yet they are inspired by, and admiring of, the concept of hope.
@radisson is just going by what Legion tells us, which is that the geth aren't like regular sapiants, and should not be judged by their laws. They weren't created the same either.
The judgement is based on how the geth have always picked self-preservation in the long run. It's almost habitual.

3.) But that IS how it works. You CAN'T judge a race by YOUR cultures rules and ethics. Your ethics apply to yours, and can't really apply to another race. For example, slaughtering hundreds of civilians to kill a fire-squad is a job well done in Turian Culture, but is monsterous in Human Culture. To Turians, going door-to-door and butchering anyone and everyone that shows even the slightest resistance, then burning the corpses, is standard policy to them. Is it where you come from? I doubt it.
The ENTIRE POINT is that you CAN'T judge them by your moral standards, because that's benignly antromorphizing them. The only one peeing on this factor is you.

Do you see why so many people disagree with you, wipping out Godwin's Law when it ISN'T needed or necessary? YOU are the one sullying the term "ethics" by not comprehending that judging a race by your standards and ethics IS the wrong way to go about it, because that's antromorphizing them. Something you can't do if you want to make a fair judgement of them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 avril 2013 - 09:33 .

[remydat]

Silver,

So it's cool if Turians go house to house killing people but bad if the Geth did so in the MW? Did the Geth inform you this is wrong in their culture?

I am pretty sure you and others have condemned the Geth for this but now you defend the Turians?

Modifié par remydat, 22 avril 2013 - 09:39 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

So it's cool if Turians go house to house killing people but bad if the Geth did so in the MW? Did the Geth inform you this is wrong in their culture?

I am pretty sure you and others have condemned the Geth for this but now you defend the Turians?

That's My POINT. It ISN'T good, yet YOU defend it. And AGAIN, you judge the quarians by human standards.
Also, FWY, LEGION HIMSELF said it was wrong. He said that the geth had remorse for killing them, which is the entire reason they were cleaning up the damage to begin with. By THEIR OWN WORDS, they did the quarians wrong.

So YES, via Legion, the geth DID inform me AND you that it was wrong in their culture. They regret the death toll, but not the action. They responded harshly. They regreated the death count after having time to meditate on it.

The turians do NOT do this, and defend it as their standard practice.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 avril 2013 - 04:20 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

That's My POINT. It ISN'T good, yet YOU defend it. And AGAIN, you judge the quarians by human standards.
Also, FWY, LEGION HIMSELF said it was wrong. He said that the geth had remorse for killing them, which is the entire reason they were cleaning up the damage to begin with. By THEIR OWN WORDS, they did the quarians wrong.

So YES, via Legion, the geth DID inform me AND you that it was wrong in their culture. They regret the death toll, but not the action. They responded harshly. They regreated the death count after having time to meditate on it.

The turians do NOT do this, and defend it as their standard practice.

I don't judge the Quarians by human standards.  I judge them by Adult standards.  And Legion says they caused the creators great harm because they killed them.  Just like I caused a burglar great harm if I kill him.  I may even feel remorse that I had to kill him.  Doesn't mean I did wrong.  Just means I am not a douche.

There are plenty of things people feel sad or remorse over that are not wrong.  My Shep feels remorse over killing 300 thousand batarians.  Does that mean he was wrong or does it mean he is not an inhuman bastard?  

So you are confused, you go on and on about ruthless calculus of war when it comes to organics trying to justify it.  Yet when the Geth perform some ruthless calculus of their own suddenly there is a problem.

Do me a favor, let me know what actions organics have done that are wrong that you actually blame them for because every time they do something you seem to rely on ruthless calculus as an excuse.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's My POINT. It ISN'T good, yet YOU defend it. And AGAIN, you judge the quarians by human standards.
Also, FWY, LEGION HIMSELF said it was wrong. He said that the geth had remorse for killing them, which is the entire reason they were cleaning up the damage to begin with. By THEIR OWN WORDS, they did the quarians wrong.

So YES, via Legion, the geth DID inform me AND you that it was wrong in their culture. They regret the death toll, but not the action. They responded harshly. They regreated the death count after having time to meditate on it.

The turians do NOT do this, and defend it as their standard practice.

I don't judge the Quarians by human standards.  I judge them by Adult standards.  And Legion says they caused the creators great harm because they killed them.  Just like I caused a burglar great harm if I kill him.  I may even feel remorse that I had to kill him.  Doesn't mean I did wrong.  Just means I am not a douche.

There are plenty of things people feel sad or remorse over that are not wrong.  My Shep feels remorse over killing 300 thousand batarians.  Does that mean he was wrong or does it mean he is not an inhuman bastard?  

So you are confused, you go on and on about ruthless calculus of war when it comes to organics trying to justify it.  Yet when the Geth perform some ruthless calculus of their own suddenly there is a problem.

Do me a favor, let me know what actions organics have done that are wrong that you actually blame them for because every time they do something you seem to rely on ruthless calculus as an excuse.

Adult HUMAN standards. That's STILL double-standards. And AGAIN, killing someone in self-defense is NOT the same as taking a machine gun and mowing down everyone one the block along with him. Something you continue to condone. That DOES make you a literal douche if you support not feeling remorse for the mass slaughter of billions of innocent civilians. Trust me, the geth have PLENTY to be remorseful for.

So then why to you begrudge the quarians when THEY were in the exact same position? One avalible option with no other way out visible? And the geth feel bad about the quarians dying, NOT the geth's killing of the defensless quarian civilians.

And AGAIN, dead wrong. The geth HAD alternitives to mass slaughter. They did not take them. The Council didn't have alternitives with the krogan. Big differnece. I feel the same way about the krogan - alternitives presant, but ignored.

As to organc screw-ups:
I blame the Turians for having such harsh policies, and for attacking humans at Shanxi for the drop of a dime. That was straight-up agression.
I blame the drell for the devestation of their own world. They overindustrilized and it killed them.
I blame the asari for hiding prothean tech for 20,000 years when they were the ones that wrote the rule that hiding that tech was illegal.
I blame the krogan for not listening to negotiation and practally bringing the genophage down on themselves.
I blame the protheans for their imperilistic conquests and the lives that could have been spared had they been more gentle.
I blame the Reapers for becomeing part of the very problem they were created to solve without ever realizing it.

So, feel free to stop being so condesending.

[Phatose]

What alternatives to mass slaughter, exactly, do you propose the Geth had?