642 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Nightwriter wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Doesn't that trope require you to start with a normal being with an overlay of Invincibility Magic X?

Though Independence Day pulled it in something that pretended to be sci-fi, yep. But it's pretty stupid. If you csn knock out the shields, why not the engines too?

Not particularly, no.

I am thrown by the Independence Day reference. Is there some reason you think this would have to work like it did in that movie?

Only that you're proposing the exact same thing. Remove invincibility magic, destroy enemy with conventional weaponry.

[Nightwriter]

AlanC9 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Doesn't that trope require you to start with a normal being with an overlay of Invincibility Magic X?

Though Independence Day pulled it in something that pretended to be sci-fi, yep. But it's pretty stupid. If you csn knock out the shields, why not the engines too?

Not particularly, no.

I am thrown by the Independence Day reference. Is there some reason you think this would have to work like it did in that movie?

Only that you're proposing the exact same thing. Remove invincibility magic, destroy enemy with conventional weaponry.

Jesus Iakus you were right. D:

+10 cynicism

[AlanC9]

outlaw1109 wrote...

1.  It's the end of the DLC..."as a huge mass effect engine manipulating massive quantities of energy, a relay could produce an explosion of supernova proportions." (per the codex).

Even if the supernova blast reached other systems in the cluster, it would take years. This would still be far in the future by the time ME3 ends.

2.  Technically, there is a mass effect field.  Considering the above quote from the codex which references "huge mass effect engine".  Also, the relays use mass effect fields to...um, function.  So...yeah...mass effect field is present.

Don't be stupid. The mass effect field doesn't cover the entire cluster. Even during a transit there's only a very narrow point-to-point corridor.

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 janvier 2014 - 04:51 .

[AlanC9]

Nightwriter wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Only that you're proposing the exact same thing. Remove invincibility magic, destroy enemy with conventional weaponry.

Jesus Iakus you were right. D:

+10 cynicism

What's the difference? I'll stipulate that they could hide it better than ID did, sure, but how is the mechanism different from "remove invincibility magic, destroy enemy with conventional weaponry"?

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 janvier 2014 - 04:52 .

[Nightwriter]

AlanC9 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Only that you're proposing the exact same thing. Remove invincibility magic, destroy enemy with conventional weaponry.

Jesus Iakus you were right. D:

+10 cynicism

What's the difference? I'll stipulate that they could dress it up better than ID did, sure, but how is the mechanism different from "remove invincibility magic, destroy enemy with conventionsl weaponry"?

No. No. I spent the last of my strength restraining that last pessimism impulse, my innocence hath died. I'm slipping, man. We're all dust in the end, NASA is a waste of taxpayer money, emotions are chemicals, there is no free will. Humbug the surplus population are there no prisons are there no workhouses --

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Agreed. "Unconventional methods" itself becomes a magic wand allowing our, somehow special cycle, to think of methods of combat which wouldn't have occurred to any other civilization.

this cycle had things no other cycle had:  Forewarning of what was to come, and control of the Citadel when they arrived.

I admit Bioware pretty much ...urinated...most of that away by spinning our wheels throughout ME2...

The forewarning doesn't amount to anything, remember? Every major faction denies the existence of the Reaper threat until they're on our door step. Cerberus ME2 aside, there doesn't seem to be any group trying to understand/stop them. We literally just cannibalized Sovereign's technology and moved on.

Again, this is the problem with conventional victory. Citadel or not, united forces or not, the basic premise is "Come up with a method of attack that no other civilization in millions of years has been able to make work" while still beating the innumerable God machines. Maybe if ME3 took place over decades/hundreds of years, I could see it work. But six months? Actually, even less than that? Not a chance.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 04 janvier 2014 - 05:02 .

[Reorte]

iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Agreed. "Unconventional methods" itself becomes a magic wand allowing our, somehow special cycle, to think of methods of combat which wouldn't have occurred to any other civilization.

this cycle had things no other cycle had:  Forewarning of what was to come, and control of the Citadel when they arrived.

I admit Bioware pretty much ...urinated...most of that away by spinning our wheels throughout ME2...

I find it very hard to swallow the idea that not one single previous cycle managed to work out what was coming. The big mistake was making the Reapers so old, because it's very hard to imagine that there is a plausible scenario that hasn't been tried before, and failed. The only possible exception IMO revolves around the remains of Sovereign. A dead Reaper and time to study it before the rest arrive is the one single advantage of this cycle that seems even vaguely convincing (there's the derelict Reaper in ME2 - I can probably accept that it might've happened once before and been missed by the following cycles).

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Jesus Iakus you were right. D:

+10 cynicism

There is a realm of cynicism so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Iakus.

Modifié par iakus, 04 janvier 2014 - 05:16 .

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

The forewarning doesn't amount to anything, remember? Every major faction denies the existence of the Reaper threat until they're on our door step. Cerberus ME2 aside, there doesn't seem to be any group trying to understand/stop them. We literally just cannibalized Sovereign's technology and moved on.

Did I not say Bioware wasted that opportunity with ME2?  Am I just mumbling to myself in a corner?

Again, this is the problem with conventional victory. Citadel or not, united forces or not, the basic premise is "Come up with a method of attack that no other civilization in millions of years has been able to make work" while still beating the innumerable God machines. Maybe if ME3 took place over decades/hundreds of years, I could see it work. But six months? Actually, even less than that? Not a chance.

There are only innumerable Reapers because Bioware said there were innumerable Reapers.  Bioware could as easily have said there were only a few hundred.

I believe in my mumblings in the corner I even said that a protracted war could have been the basis for later Mass Effect games:  Shepard gives the galaxy a fighting chance, and later games deal with the war over years, decades, or even centuries.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

Did I not say Bioware wasted that opportunity with ME2?  Am I just mumbling to myself in a corner?

You did, but I thought it was important to explain why foresight wasn't a relevant factor.

There are only innumerable Reapers because Bioware said there were innumerable Reapers.  Bioware could as easily have said there were only a few hundred.

Well, that and ME2's ending panel. I suppose you could point to that quite literally count how many Reapers appear on screen, but I think that's omitting the general vibe the cut-scene is meant to give, that we're about to get our asses kicked. Someone made a KotOR 2 comparison earlier in this thread and I think that's a great point. It's a great game, but the basic premise, especially light side, is very jarring after an ending cut-scene gives the impression that all major conflicts are solved.

I believe in my mumblings in the corner I even said that a protracted war could have been the basis for later Mass Effect games:  Shepard gives the galaxy a fighting chance, and later games deal with the war over years, decades, or even centuries.

Which still relies on the central issue that a protracted war (I assume one we win) will have its basis on technology or tactics hitherto unseen, which gives even our special cycle a tad too much credit. What are we meant to come up with that would make a victory, any victory, seem believable?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 04 janvier 2014 - 05:26 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
I believe in my mumblings in the corner I even said that a protracted war could have been the basis for later Mass Effect games:  Shepard gives the galaxy a fighting chance, and later games deal with the war over years, decades, or even centuries.

Sounds awful. By ME3 I'm ready for the Reaper arc to be over; they aren't all that interesting to begin with.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
I believe in my mumblings in the corner I even said that a protracted war could have been the basis for later Mass Effect games:  Shepard gives the galaxy a fighting chance, and later games deal with the war over years, decades, or even centuries.

Sounds awful. By ME3 I'm ready for the Reaper arc to be over; they aren't all that interesting to begin with.

Good point. As part of our fan writing restrictions, we should be constrained to the trilogy Bioware set out to make. Unless Iakus, are you suggesting you would be comfortable with ME3's ending with Shepard giving the galaxy that fighting chance and it being left up to players whether it works or not?

[outlaw1109]

AlanC9 wrote...

Even if the supernova blast reached other systems in the cluster, it would take years. This would still be far in the future by the time ME3 ends.


Don't be stupid. The mass effect field doesn't cover the entire cluster. Even during a transit there's only a very narrow point-to-point corridor.

I think I mentioned in a previous post that the flaw in my logic is the speed at which the explosion travels.  And there's nothing saying what effect the mass effect field would have on an explosion.  Especially a mass effect field of that size.  It's consistently mentioned that blowing up a Relay has never been done before, so the science isn't explained, only the result.

So, you're "Don't be stupid" is just speculation...and it's kinda dumb to call someone stupid over your personal interpretation of the information provided.

[CronoDragoon]

Reorte wrote...
I find it very hard to swallow the idea that not one single previous cycle managed to work out what was coming.

As you should because it's not true. The Protheans knew the Reapers were coming. Who knows how many other cycles did? It simply didn't make a difference.

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Good point. As part of our fan writing restrictions, we should be constrained to the trilogy Bioware set out to make. Unless Iakus, are you suggesting you would be comfortable with ME3's ending with Shepard giving the galaxy that fighting chance and it being left up to players whether it works or not?

AS long as giving that "fighting chance' didn't involve forced suicide, betraying your own allies, or playing god to the galaxy (on a literal or figurative level), sure.  I'm willing to headcanon the outcome. 

End the game with Shepard and the crew of the Normandy watching a battle in the distance, Reapers vs Alliance.  And the Alliance is not getting curb-stomped, but is actually holding their own.  In fact, they might even be winning.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Reorte wrote...
I find it very hard to swallow the idea that not one single previous cycle managed to work out what was coming.

As you should because it's not true. The Protheans knew the Reapers were coming. Who knows how many other cycles did? It simply didn't make a difference.

Citation needed

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Good point. As part of our fan writing restrictions, we should be constrained to the trilogy Bioware set out to make. Unless Iakus, are you suggesting you would be comfortable with ME3's ending with Shepard giving the galaxy that fighting chance and it being left up to players whether it works or not?

AS long as giving that "fighting chance' didn't involve forced suicide, betraying your own allies, or playing god to the galaxy (on a literal or figurative level), sure.  I'm willing to headcanon the outcome. 

End the game with Shepard and the crew of the Normandy watching a battle in the distance, Reapers vs Alliance.  And the Alliance is not getting curb-stomped, but is actually holding their own.  In fact, they might even be winning.

Fair.

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Reorte wrote...
I find it very hard to swallow the idea that not one single previous cycle managed to work out what was coming.

As you should because it's not true. The Protheans knew the Reapers were coming. Who knows how many other cycles did? It simply didn't make a difference.

Citation needed

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Prothean

The Protheans' belief that they could hold their own against machine intelligence was shattered with the arrival of the Reapers in approximately 48,000 BCE, who were far more advanced than the machines the Protheans had been battling. Even though the Protheans already knew of the Reapers, they were nonetheless caught completely off-guard by the scale and rapidity of the assault. The Reapers entered the galaxy through the Citadel, instantly decapitating the Protheans' government and disrupting the mass relay network, isolating Prothean systems from one another. Worse, records on the Citadel provided the Reapers with access to all of the Protheans' census data and star charts, allowing them to effectively track every Prothean in the galaxy.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Citation needed

http://masseffect.wi...thean#Cataclysm

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 04 janvier 2014 - 06:02 .

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Prothean

The Protheans' belief that they could hold their own against machine intelligence was shattered with the arrival of the Reapers in approximately 48,000 BCE, who were far more advanced than the machines the Protheans had been battling. Even though the Protheans already knew of the Reapers, they were nonetheless caught completely off-guard by the scale and rapidity of the assault. The Reapers entered the galaxy through the Citadel, instantly decapitating the Protheans' government and disrupting the mass relay network, isolating Prothean systems from one another. Worse, records on the Citadel provided the Reapers with access to all of the Protheans' census data and star charts, allowing them to effectively track every Prothean in the galaxy.

Then I call retcon.  this directly contradicts Vigil's description of the Reaper invasion.  And what's more, Javik never mentions the Protheans knew of the Reapers before their arrival.

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Prothean

The Protheans' belief that they could hold their own against machine intelligence was shattered with the arrival of the Reapers in approximately 48,000 BCE, who were far more advanced than the machines the Protheans had been battling. Even though the Protheans already knew of the Reapers, they were nonetheless caught completely off-guard by the scale and rapidity of the assault. The Reapers entered the galaxy through the Citadel, instantly decapitating the Protheans' government and disrupting the mass relay network, isolating Prothean systems from one another. Worse, records on the Citadel provided the Reapers with access to all of the Protheans' census data and star charts, allowing them to effectively track every Prothean in the galaxy.

Then I call retcon.  this directly contradicts Vigil's description of the Reaper invasion.  And what's more, Javik never mentions the Protheans knew of the Reapers before their arrival.

He never claim they know about Reapers, but that they just know about some destructive power from previous cycles (through their touch ability). They donť know its nature and when, how or if it return.

No retcon.

[AlanC9]

outlaw1109 wrote...
I think I mentioned in a previous post that the flaw in my logic is the speed at which the explosion travels.  And there's nothing saying what effect the mass effect field would have on an explosion.  Especially a mass effect field of that size.  It's consistently mentioned that blowing up a Relay has never been done before, so the science isn't explained, only the result.

The explosion would do the same thing within a mass effect field that everything else does. It would be capable of exceeding the speed of light while within the field. But the moment it exited the field it would crash back down to normal velocity, the same way everything else does. The Codex is absolutely clear on this -- things only go FTL if they are currently within the field.

Anyway, since you've admitted that this is a flaw in your logic, why are you still trying to push the flawed logic?

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 janvier 2014 - 07:52 .

[Clayless]

While I'm not following this thread at all (I have no idea which side is arguing which), I have to interject and say;

Don't use the wiki as a source. It's unreliable.

Unless someone can find an actual, from the series, source, the Protheans never knew of the Reapers.

[Daemul]

Robosexual wrote...

While I'm not following this thread at all (I have no idea which side is arguing which), I have to interject and say;

Don't use the wiki as a source. It's unreliable.

Unless someone can find an actual, from the series, source, the Protheans never knew of the Reapers.

Agreed, too much stuff on the Wiki is supposition, the Protheans knew about some destructive power suddenly becomes the Protheans knew of the Reapers.

[TheMyron]

Too bad we never see the Leviathan spheres used to mind control one Sovereign-class Reaper into attacking another...

And why is the "Dominate" power unavailable on multiplayer?! You don't have to be an AY, just hold up your own Apple of Eden Leviathan Sphere and watch the fun...

Modifié par TheMyron, 04 janvier 2014 - 09:53 .