642 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

What line specifically does Javik say that tells us that the protheans knew the reapers were coming before the trap was sprung? From what I understand from the dialogue, the protheans were just as much in the dark as any other cycle before the Citadel relay opened, because the sabotage didn't take place until the protheans were functionally extinct.

The only thing that doesn't really make sense is that unless the protheans had super advanced FTL, they would not have been able to fight the reapers system by system if the relay network was cut off, which is what happened, according to Vigil.

[David7204]

They may have been able to.

[AlexMBrennan]

they would not have been able to fight the reapers system by system if the relay network was cut off, which is what happened, according to Vigil.

I took that to mean that the reapers opened one relay at a time and took out the local garrison with overwhelming local force before moving on to the next location.

[thehomeworld]

It was BWs way of saying we don't want to put in work to discredit our flimsy dues ex machina device so we'll just say you can't win with numbers, brains, and nukes placed inside their cores.

[Almostfaceman]

thehomeworld wrote...

It was BWs way of saying we don't want to put in work to discredit our flimsy dues ex machina device so we'll just say you can't win with numbers, brains, and nukes placed inside their cores.

Sorta. I don't think the folks at BW are lazy, I think they needed more time. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that, even though they basicly gave us the finger with Refuse and DLC that didn't really improve the ending much and hand-waved a lot of things (like the serious impact no mass relays would have on the fleet survival post-victory).

But it's okay, I've got MEHEM now.

[AlanC9]

More time wouldn't have made a conventional victory any less impossible. Bio simply had no interest in that.

Why would no relays have hurt fleet survival?

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 janvier 2014 - 03:23 .

[David7204]

thehomeworld wrote...

It was BWs way of saying we don't want to put in work to discredit our flimsy dues ex machina device so we'll just say you can't win with numbers, brains, and nukes placed inside their cores.

We certainly can't win with brains if this is what 'brains' looks like.

[Han Shot First]

As of ME3 there was indeed no way to win conventionally. Or rather there was no way to have the civilizations of the galaxy win conventionally without completely annihilating the possibility of suspending disbelief.

The Reaper War begins with the civilizations of the galaxy at a severe technological disadvantage. At that stage it is far too late to completely overhaul and upgrade entire space fleets. Assuming first that the technology to even level the playing field exists, you couldn't simply take your entire fleet out of action and overhaul it. Realistically it would also take weeks or months to overhaul ships and would not occur with the click of a button, and meanwhile the shipyards where these ships were in 'drydock' would be completely vulnerable to Reaper attack. In short you have to fight wars with the army you have, not with the army you want.

In order for the civilizations of the galaxy to have won conventionally and for the story have maintained some level of plausibility, the plot of Mass Effect 2 would have to be radically different. That chapter would have to be focused on preparing for the Reaper invasion and leveling the technological playing field, rather than the Dirty-Dozen-in-Space plot that we got. For those of you who wanted a conventional victory, the problem was with Mass Effect 2 rather than Mass Effect 3. By ME3 conventional victory that was no longer a plausible option.

The other issue with the civilizations of the galaxy winning conventionally is that it completely removes player agency. Since Mass Effect is an RPG rather than a RTS, Shepard would have little to do of note in the end game beyond watch other characters like Hackett or the Turian Primarch, win the Reaper War. If you are going to have Shepard be the one most responsible for bringing the Reaper War to a close, you have to use some form of a superweapon.

The problem with ME3's original endings for me wasn't that Bioware decided to introduce a superweapon to the plot, its that the execution was so poorly done, and that it came packaged with bad child-acting, thematic inconsistencies, an overabundance of space magic, and an inability to save the galactic civilization the player character had been fighting to save over course of five years and three games.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:19 .

[David7204]

It wouldn't be flawless, Han, but it could have been done. In a story without choices, it could be done easily.

In any case, the galaxy 'building up' significantly in ME 2 isn't really on the table.

Nor is it true that the story would turn into an RTS. It would be no doubt difficult, but I think an appropriate end-game moment would be possible.

Modifié par David7204, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:21 .

[N7Gold]

nukembaby wrote...

During the game I saw several Reapers being destroyed conventionally--and without nukes (Cain at the end doesn't really count since it's so small). Throw a couple megaton bombs in there and they should be toast in no time. Even without nukes, the Reaper ships are kind of a joke. Sure, their main gun is destructive but so slow to fire and so easy to predict, a NASA space shuttle could run circles around one.

I don't buy it.

Yes, but can you nuke an unidentified vast number of Reapers? I didn't think so. Even with the galaxy united, they still outnumber everyone.

Modifié par N7Gold, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:30 .

[MegaSovereign]

Dude, the writers could have written anything they wanted. It's not like Mass Effect's writing is super consistent anyway. In fact, I would have been completely okay with a "conventional victory" if they even hinted at what made Shepard and co. so damn special compared to the thousands of other cycles.

If it was just "lol friendship" then I wouldn't have liked it very much.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:38 .

[David7204]

The entire story is centered on what makes Shepard and co. "so damn special." Pretty much heroic story is focused on showing why the hero is "so damn special." It's not obvious?

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dude, the writers could have written anything they wanted. It's not like Mass Effect's writing is super consistent anyway. In fact, I would have been completely okay with a "conventional victory" if they even hinted at what made Shepard and co. so damn special compared to the thousands of other cycles.

Humans. Heroic humans.

[MegaSovereign]

David7204 wrote...

The entire story is centered on what makes Shepard and co. "so damn special." Pretty much heroic story is focused on showing why the hero is "so damn special." It's not obvious?

Nope.

Why is he special?

[David7204]

Pretty much the same reasons all heroes are special. Courage, integrity, bunch of other flowery words.

[MegaSovereign]

David7204 wrote...

Pretty much the same reasons all heroes are special. Courage, integrity, bunch of other flowery words.

So...for more than a billion(?) years, Shepard is the first organic to display these traits? Do you really think conviction is THE solution?

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Pretty much the same reasons all heroes are special. Courage, integrity, bunch of other flowery words.

And why haven't we had this courageous hero with integrity in the countless cycles beforehand?

[wolfhowwl]

What happens to a hero when they get hit with an orbital strike from a Reaper dreadnought?

The same thing that happens to everything else.

Boom.

[David7204]

MegaSovereign wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Pretty much the same reasons all heroes are special. Courage, integrity, bunch of other flowery words.

So...for more than a billion(?) years, Shepard is the first organic to display these traits?

Of course not. Merely the first to succeed.

Modifié par David7204, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:50 .

[dreamgazer]

wolfhowwl wrote...

What happens to a hero when they get hit with an orbital strike from a Reaper dreadnought?

The same thing that happens to everything else.

Boom.

Nicely done, Ororo.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Pretty much the same reasons all heroes are special. Courage, integrity, bunch of other flowery words.

So...for more than a billion(?) years, Shepard is the first organic to display these traits?

Of course not. Merely the first to succeed.

I'm willing to bet that there have been at least a few ... erm, "heroes" with more courage and integrity than Shepard since the beginning of time. You're gonna have to do better than that.

[David7204]

There might well have been. They obviously didn't succeed, though.

Modifié par David7204, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:56 .

[N7Gold]

David7204 wrote...

The entire story is centered on what makes Shepard and co. "so damn special." Pretty much heroic story is focused on showing why the hero is "so damn special." It's not obvious?

But there's nothing truly special about Shepard. To others, he/she may seem special, but Shepard is an average human like everyone else. He/She says that a couple times.

Shepard: "You don't seem intimidated by me in the least. Infact, you could use a little more deference."

Vega: "Hah, sure, but I've fought with you. I've seen you in action. Hey don't get me wrong, you're good, probably one of the best."

Shepard: "Probably?"

Vega: "But I know you're human, just like me."

Shepard: "But not them? (pointing back at the partying Marines)"

Vega: "Nope. Hell, I still remember the day they made you the first human Spectre. I watched it on the vids just like all of them. But to them, you're still larger than life."

Shepard: "I've seen a hell of a lot, but I'm still just a soldier. I'm still one of them."

Vega: "Sure, but they don't know you. They just know what they've been told."



Shepard: "I'm just a soldier like them."

Major Coates: "You might see yourself like that, but they don't. Like it or not, commander, you're a hero to these men and women. Don't discount the effect that can have on them."

[David7204]

This actually touches upon a very important point of the Ideal Hero. He's somewhat or even completely oblivious to his own goodness, because what is extraordinary for others is what he does "by instinct, by inevitability, without thought of it, and certainly without saying it."

Mass Effect did this very well, I must say.

Modifié par David7204, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:02 .

[Almostfaceman]

AlanC9 wrote...

More time wouldn't have made a conventional victory any less impossible. Bio simply had no interest in that.

Why would no relays have hurt fleet survival?

More time would have given the development team/writing team more options - it's not implausible that they may have considered that an option and you're not an authority on what they would/would not consider with more time. It's my opinion that the haphazard original ending was evidence (among other characteristics of the game) of a tight time-line. 

The fleet was not designed for extended FTL travel. All the ships were designed with relays in mind. How they got around the time/fuel/food (to name a few) concerns is never adequately explained. And Earth was in no shape to host the survivors.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:05 .