642 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

It's not the only factor. The other factors are the ones we've been talking about...Courage, Integrity, and all those other words.

[MegaSovereign]

Zazzerka wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Well, what I meant from my original comment (which started this discussion) was that I couldn't really pinpoint what could give Shepard and co. an advantage over the other cycles that had failed.

It couldn't have been just luck because the Reapers seem to have taken an interest in Shepard...that and there was literally a line from I forgot where : "Your victories are more than a product of chance."

I remember hearing something about Shepard possessing immunity from indoctrination, which I think would be a pretty good reason for their interest in him/her - if organics are building up a resistance to it, and Shepard is the first to do so, then that's a problem that needs to be nipped in the bud - but as it is, all we're left with is luck.

I would have liked something like this. It wouldn't have made Shepard space Jesus necessarily but it certainly would have explained the Reapers' interest in his body.

[Ravensword]

David7204 wrote...

Why? Luck is a factor in everything and anything. We can't deny it exists. Being the best person on the planet wouldn't stop you from getting struck by lightning or hit by a drunk driver or something. Being the worst person on the planet wouldn't stop you from winning the lottery.

Courage is not a magical shield that bends the laws of physics around a person. It doesn't stop you from getting shot or stabbed. It doesn't grant you good genes to make you strong or fast or smart. It doesn't prevent you from tripping and cracking your head open or choking to death on a chicken bone. It wouldn't, as was pointed out, prevent a person from getting vaporized by a superweapon.

Funny how getting hit by a drunk driver vastly more likely than the other two things you mentioned.

Well, apparently, courage is a magical shield that can bend the plot to suit whatever needs to get done in the story.

[MegaSovereign]

David7204 wrote...

It's not the only factor. The other factors are the ones we've been talking about...Courage, Integrity, and all those other words.

Okay. So luck is the differentiating factor between the cycles.

I don't like that and I don't think it should be the biggest factor in determining a hero's success.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:39 .

[David7204]

Wrong. Narrative Causality is the justification of the hero succeeding.

[Cainhurst Crow]

*Facepalm*

Really? This petrified turd needed to be revived? REALLY?

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I would have liked something like this. It wouldn't have made Shepard space Jesus necessarily but it certainly would have explained the Reapers' interest in his body.

Apparently Shepard's a really, really effective good luck charm. That's why.

[David7204]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't like that and I don't think it should be the biggest factor in determining a hero's success.

It's not the biggest factor. But luck exists. We can't deny or neglect the affect it has on everyone, hero or not, fictional or real.

Modifié par David7204, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:41 .

[Nightwriter]

Shepard succeeded where others failed due to luck? I can get behind that. If not for the actions of the Protheans before us, or the timely discovery of the Crucible data on Mars, I'm sure we would have gone the way of the other cycles, heroism or no.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Wrong. Narrative Causality is the justification of the hero succeeding.

********


EDIT: evading word filter

Modifié par BioWareMod04, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:46 .

[Zazzerka]

dreamgazer wrote...

Apparently Shepard's a really, really effective good luck charm. That's why.

Y'know what's even better is Jesus. He's like, six leprechauns.

Modifié par Zazzerka, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:44 .

[Ravensword]

Zazzerka wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Apparently Shepard's a really, really effective good luck charm. That's why.

Y'know what's even better is Jesus. He's like, six leprechauns.

Tyche or her Roman equivalent, Fortuna, have nothing on Shepard.

[DeinonSlayer]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Wrong. Narrative Causality is the justification of the hero succeeding.

Bullshit.

Wait until he starts explaining why Liara should have been a complete neophyte with zero combat experience who gains enough competence to operate with a galaxy-class specops team by drinking deeply of Shepard's Hero Juice™.

Edited: removed image

Modifié par BioWareMod04, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:53 .

[MegaSovereign]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard succeeded where others failed due to luck? I can get behind that. If not for the actions of the Protheans before us, or the timely discovery of the Crucible data on Mars, I'm sure we would have gone the way of the other cycles, heroism or no.

I'm not really trying to deny that luck is a big factor.

I think the story would have been better off if Shepard had some kind of (minor) mutation a long with those generic heroic traits (integrity, courage, etc). Especially when Bioware keeps insisting that Shepard is physically special.

[David7204]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Wait until he starts explaining why Liara should have been a complete neophyte with zero combat experience who gains enough competence to operate with a galaxy-class specops team by drinking deeply of Shepard's Hero Juice™.

I might have a little respect for it is wasn't for laughably, laughably moronic comments like this.

A character with no experience in combat learning and eventually becoming a master is an absolute staple of epic fiction. And for very good reason.

And if we're talking RPGs, which as everyone on the BSN shills, take that and make it tenfold.

Modifié par David7204, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:52 .

[David7204]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I think the story would have been better off if Shepard had some kind of (minor) mutation a long with those generic heroic traits (integrity, courage, etc). Especially when Bioware keeps insisting that Shepard is physically special.

Shepard is obviously very physically capable. So that's certainly special.

Modifié par David7204, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:53 .

[dreamgazer]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Wait until he starts explaining why Liara should have been a complete neophyte with zero combat experience who gains enough competence to operate with a galaxy-class specops team by drinking deeply of Shepard's Hero Juice™.

Ah, yes. The "Shepard trained Liara" theory.

My rebuttal: if training actually happened on the Normandy (in that short period), someone else with less to do probably did it.

[Br3admax]

Dude's conquered the science and logic of both our and their universe thousands of times.It's not really that far fetched that he/she is god, and should have sacrifices given in their name daily. Without the Crucible, Shepard would have rode in a charge of dire bunny cavalry and defeated Harbinger in an arm wrestling match. This is an absolute truth. Do not think otherwise.

[Nightwriter]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard succeeded where others failed due to luck? I can get behind that. If not for the actions of the Protheans before us, or the timely discovery of the Crucible data on Mars, I'm sure we would have gone the way of the other cycles, heroism or no.

I'm not really trying to deny that luck is a big factor.

I think the story would have been better off if Shepard had some kind of (minor) mutation a long with those generic heroic traits (integrity, courage, etc). Especially when Bioware keeps insisting that Shepard is physically special.

I guess the point is a bit academic for me tbh. I never ask "what made this protagonist the best hero" but rather "what made this protagonist a good character."

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Wait until he starts explaining why Liara should have been a complete neophyte with zero combat experience who gains enough competence to operate with a galaxy-class specops team by drinking deeply of Shepard's Hero Juice™.

I might have a little respect for it is wasn't for laughably, laughably moronic comments like this.

A character with no experience in combat learning and eventually becoming a master is an absolute staple of epic fiction. And for very good reason.

Oh, but we had such a fun time! You insisting that soldiering was a skill to be picked up with minimal effort, actual soldiers laughing in your face...

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Wait until he starts explaining why Liara should have been a complete neophyte with zero combat experience who gains enough competence to operate with a galaxy-class specops team by drinking deeply of Shepard's Hero Juice™.

I might have a little respect for it is wasn't for laughably, laughably moronic comments like this.

A character with no experience in combat learning and eventually becoming a master is an absolute staple of epic fiction. And for very good reason.

And if we're talking RPGs, which as everyone on the BSN shills, take that and make it tenfold.

Even if this were true, which even in the most extreme cases, it usually isn't, they almost always have some sort of mentoring somewhere, in epic fiction or otherwise, what did this have to do with the point made? 

[MegaSovereign]

Nightwriter wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Shepard succeeded where others failed due to luck? I can get behind that. If not for the actions of the Protheans before us, or the timely discovery of the Crucible data on Mars, I'm sure we would have gone the way of the other cycles, heroism or no.

I'm not really trying to deny that luck is a big factor.

I think the story would have been better off if Shepard had some kind of (minor) mutation a long with those generic heroic traits (integrity, courage, etc). Especially when Bioware keeps insisting that Shepard is physically special.

I guess the point is a bit academic for me tbh. I never ask "what made this protagonist the best hero" but rather "what made this protagonist a good character."

Truth be told, I would have rolled with it if it wasn't for Harbinger's obsession with Shepard's body.

Harbinger was pretty weird though.

[Zazzerka]

David7204 wrote...

A character with no experience in combat learning and eventually becoming a master is an absolute staple of epic fiction. And for very good reason.

It works for fantasy games where the hero's village is burned down by goblins and they need to systematically defeat monsters of increasing strength until they can take on the Big Bad, but I'm not convinced it'd work for a special forces soldier to recruit a civilian and then immediately drop onto a geth filled world.

The game would require changing. Liara would have to be locked as a squadmate until she learns how to shoot and duck. There'd need to be a training montage or two. It could work, but not with the current Mass Effect framework.

[ImaginaryMatter]

dreamgazer wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Wait until he starts explaining why Liara should have been a complete neophyte with zero combat experience who gains enough competence to operate with a galaxy-class specops team by drinking deeply of Shepard's Hero Juice™.

Ah, yes. The "Shepard trained Liara" theory.

My rebuttal: if training actually happened on the Normandy (in that short period), someone else with less to do probably did it.

Plus we didn't get a Liara montage.

[Han Shot First]

dreamgazer wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Wait until he starts explaining why Liara should have been a complete neophyte with zero combat experience who gains enough competence to operate with a galaxy-class specops team by drinking deeply of Shepard's Hero Juice™.

Ah, yes. The "Shepard trained Liara" theory.

My rebuttal: if training actually happened on the Normandy (in that short period), someone else with less to do probably did it.

Liara needed a montage.



edit: ninja'd

Modifié par Han Shot First, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:03 .