642 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

dreamgazer wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

That's right! Hopelessness and gritty compromise is what drew me to the series in the first place! 

*snip*

Probably so!

Making some hard decisions doesn't make the overall story hopeless or gritty. The story is rather a hopeful struggle against dark forces. At the end of ME1 I struggle against dark forces to prevail and win, defying the odds, and in ME2 I struggle against dark forces to prevail and win, defying the odds. Obstacles are overcome by positively working together with different races and combined strengths.

Which you did in ME3 by coordinating the construction of the Crucible, with a hard decision at the end!

Huzzah!

Lol, don't even get me started on the ending of ME3. We can just agree to disagree, I vented plenty when I initially went through that whole crappy experience. 

[Br3admax]

But it follows your reasoning of what made ME good. Let's complain about how our food was served, and not what was served, I say. We should not have ordered the special while blindfolded.

[dreamgazer]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Lol, don't even get me started on the ending of ME3. We can just agree to disagree, I vented plenty when I initially went through that whole crappy experience. 

I don't dispute that there are execution issues, whatsoever, but thinking that we haven't been dealing with this kind of thing since the very first game is inaccurate.  ME1's got its own "art" to complain about, if someone's gonna go down that route. 

[AlanC9]

PMC65 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Didn't Liara say she already knew enough to take care of herself against mercs and thugs and had been doing so for years.

She says something about scavengers or wildlife in ME1, if you tell her archaelogist life is boring (the renegade option when you ask her about career).

"Sometimes I would run afoul of indigenous life-forms, or stumble across a small band of mercenaries or privateers. But I was always careful. Until the geth followed me to Artemis Tau, I never found myself in any situation my biotics could not handle." - Liara T'Soni 

"All asari are natural biotics, however some choose not to develop their biotic power." - ME Trivia

Given that she uses biotics, she had some training in her past.  

Right. Players who pick the neutral option won't hear this, because for that option Liara talks about what she likes about her work, rather than talk about dealing with problems.

Also note that after Liara joins a squadmate will comment that her biotics wiill be useful in combat. Which is kind of funny since she doesn't use her biotics on Therum, but I suppose she didn't have enough energy left to do it after having been trapped in that field for so long.

I don't see any issue here that isn't far worse for Tali.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:15 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It was a hard decision?

Liara will use her Biotics on Therum if you do the pause and order her to use them. I usually pause and target that charging Krogan, and set my squad to target certain enemies.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:50 .

[AlanC9]

David7204 wrote...

Not compromising is nearly always a great deal more 'gritty' than comprising. Compromising is soft and easy.

Except in RPGs, where not compromising often gives you the best results and is almost always no harder than compromising.

Anyway, this is entirely dependent on what's being compromised and how you're compromising it.

[AlexMBrennan]

I finished a playthrough of ME3 yesterday, and when scanning the planet Illum, the people decided not to shoot at the capital ships, but at the troop transport ships delaying the reapers attack. Why can't we fire at the transport ships and the processing ships? Taking those out of the picture would really make life hard for the reapers to continue their harvest. The problem is we don't know how many of those ships the reapers have and how well guarded they are.

Because every time we get close enough to a Reaper they wipe out our fleets, which is why everyone is somehow hiding from the reapers. What's more, you do realise that the reapers didn't have tons and tons of pre-assimilated Baterians/asari/krogan/turians, right? They are evidently capable of harvesting any species (e.g. Baterians) without any ground support at all.

When the reapers are on the ground give Cains to the soldiers, not to fire at the reapers, but to fire at the ground the reapers are walking on. The ground would be unstable causing the reapers to fall over. I don't know if a reaper would be able to fly away if laying on its side or not but that few moments it would be vulnerable to attacks.

Reapers have engines capable of generating enough lift to counter gravity in a planet's atmosphere (else they couldn't ever lift off again) so this may work once; after that, the reapers will just hover while killing us or switch to bombarding us from orbit. And even if we could trip reapers, what next? We have been shown at every turn that all the combined fire from a fleet can't scratch their paint until we get lucky and hit a comic book weak spot.

Another is that the capital ships have a weak spot. Their joints near the bottom of their legs. This would be easy to do if the capital ships are isolated from each other like the two we see on Palavens moon. In the cutscene over Earth an Alliance ship fires to shots at a capital ship taking out two of its legs, of course a moment later the Alliance ship is destroyed.

Too bad no one in the alliance can aim - do you want to have marines in space suits floating 10ft from the weak spot with a targeting laser?

I think it was stated in the codex that continuous fire from 4 dreadnoughts was enough firepower to overcome a reaper capital ship's defenses, and a cruiser could take on a reaper destroyer with a bit of luck 1 on 1. these are from codex entries, so don't say i'm making this up simply to make an argument. I think if you've managed to completely bring the races together there should be enough firepower to give a conventional firefight a go. though it's also possible that the codex may be a propaganda tool, and the statements are not completely accurate.

There are 250+ reaper ships, which means we'd need about 1000 dreadnoughts to win assuming that the reapers will stand and fight despite knowing that they would get completely annihilated... Problem is that we have just 100. If the Reapers switch to guerrilla tactics (pick one base/homeworld/whatever at random, hit it with everything and flee before reinforcements can get there) we'd need more than 10000 (as every garrison would have to be large enough to fend of the entire reaper armada). That's just not gonna happen.

Hopelessness and gritty compromise are DEEP and ARTISTIC! If the protagonist doesn't heroically die to bring about a partial victory, then you just want rainbows and unicorns!

Stop trying to assume the galaxy has any hope or Shepard uniting the galaxy has any meaning

Why does cooperation only count if it's hitting the same guy?

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

David7204 wrote...

Not compromising is nearly always a great deal more 'gritty' than comprising. Compromising is soft and easy.

Of course!

That's why politics always runs so smoothly! Everyone always takes the easy way out and compromises... no fuss no muss... governments almost never shut down over inability to compromise! 

[AlanC9]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

There are 250+ reaper ships, which means we'd need about 1000 dreadnoughts to win assuming that the reapers will stand and fight despite knowing that they would get completely annihilated... Problem is that we have just 100. If the Reapers switch to guerrilla tactics (pick one base/homeworld/whatever at random, hit it with everything and flee before reinforcements can get there) we'd need more than 10000 (as every garrison would have to be large enough to fend of the entire reaper armada). That's just not gonna happen.

Any Master of Orion players here? The game has a bunch of techs designed to prevent exactly  this sort of thing --faster movement between friendly colonies, fields that slow enemies approaching your colonies, etc. If for some reason nobody gets any of these techs, the endgame can degenerate into all-out planet-busting with no defense possible. (More likely in MoO1 where available techs were randomized.)

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:16 .

[von uber]

iakus wrote...

Hopelessness and gritty compromise are DEEP and ARTISTIC!  If the protagonist doesn't heroically die to bring about a partial victory, then you just want rainbows and unicorns!

I have no idea what you are on about; Maria Shepard is alive and well and waiting to be rescued after destroying the Reapers. Seems good enough for me.

[KaiserShep]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

It was a hard decision?

Liara will use her Biotics on Therum if you do the pause and order her to use them. I usually pause and target that charging Krogan, and set my squad to target certain enemies.

lol how is that possible when you can't go with any less than 2 other squadmates to control? 

[AlanC9]

She doesn't show on my interface either.

[David7204]

AlanC9 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Not compromising is nearly always a great deal more 'gritty' than comprising. Compromising is soft and easy.

Except in RPGs, where not compromising often gives you the best results and is almost always no harder than compromising.

Anyway, this is entirely dependent on what's being compromised and how you're compromising it.

It's no harder for the player. But it's often a great deal more difficult for the character. Which is what matters.

In any case, over the aggregate, not compromising proper principles does give the best results. Although it often requires giving up immediate graification for longer term gratification. And nearly always requires giving up obvious and more quantifiable gain for subtle and less quantifiable gain, although no less real.

Modifié par David7204, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:24 .

[themikefest]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I finished a playthrough of ME3 yesterday, and when scanning the planet Illum, the people decided not to shoot at the capital ships, but at the troop transport ships delaying the reapers attack. Why can't we fire at the transport ships and the processing ships? Taking those out of the picture would really make life hard for the reapers to continue their harvest. The problem is we don't know how many of those ships the reapers have and how well guarded they are.

Because every time we get close enough to a Reaper they wipe out our fleets, which is why everyone is somehow hiding from the reapers. What's more, you do realise that the reapers didn't have tons and tons of pre-assimilated Baterians/asari/krogan/turians, right? They are evidently capable of harvesting any species (e.g. Baterians) without any ground support at all.

When the reapers are on the ground give Cains to the soldiers, not to fire at the reapers, but to fire at the ground the reapers are walking on. The ground would be unstable causing the reapers to fall over. I don't know if a reaper would be able to fly away if laying on its side or not but that few moments it would be vulnerable to attacks.

Reapers have engines capable of generating enough lift to counter gravity in a planet's atmosphere (else they couldn't ever lift off again) so this may work once; after that, the reapers will just hover while killing us or switch to bombarding us from orbit. And even if we could trip reapers, what next? We have been shown at every turn that all the combined fire from a fleet can't scratch their paint until we get lucky and hit a comic book weak spot.

Another is that the capital ships have a weak spot. Their joints near the bottom of their legs. This would be easy to do if the capital ships are isolated from each other like the two we see on Palavens moon. In the cutscene over Earth an Alliance ship fires to shots at a capital ship taking out two of its legs, of course a moment later the Alliance ship is destroyed.

Too bad no one in the alliance can aim - do you want to have marines in space suits floating 10ft from the weak spot with a targeting laser?

They maybe capable to harvest on their own, but without their minions on the ground we can put more resources to dealing with the reapers themselves giving us a better chance against them.

You have no idea what would happen when they fall over. What combined fleet was firing on a reaper? You mean the Quarians? From what I saw in that scene it was 4 maybe 5 ships firing. Also they were firing on the front of the reaper where its strongest until it gets ready to fire its laser.

Who are you referring to in the Alliance that can't aim? What are talking about marines floating with space suits? I was talking about reapers on the ground.

[AlanC9]

Really, David? You can prove that? Of course, "proper" is a sufficiently weaselly word that you can use it to include whatever principles you need, I guess.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:48 .

[David7204]

It's a social phenomanon. I can't prove it in the sense of a math problem.

Modifié par David7204, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:53 .

[AlanC9]

themikefest wrote...

They maybe capable to harvest on their own, but without their minions on the ground we can put more resources to dealing with the reapers themselves giving us a better chance against them.

Only if the Reapers let us. It's not like the Reapers need to occupy industrial sites to prevent organics from using the sites. If they actually are worried about the industrial sites they're fully capable of nuking them from space.

@ David. Social phenomenon? Sounds more like an article of faith.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 janvier 2014 - 09:51 .

[David7204]

Why does it sound like an article of faith?

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

That's right! Hopelessness and gritty compromise is what drew me to the series in the first place! 

::snip::

Probably so!

I don't know whether to be amused or terrified that people place the fate of one marine, or even ten thousand soldiers, is somehow the equivalent of the RGB endings and what they mean for every living being in the galaxy

And that's on top of how badly they were executed

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

I don't know whether to be amused or terrified that people place the fate of one marine, or even ten thousand soldiers, is somehow the equivalent of the RGB endings and what they mean for every living being in the galaxy

And that's on top of how badly they were executed

Who said anything about "equivalent"?  

They're not equivalent; the final decision in the trilogy, as it rightly should, has a bigger impact. 

Point still stands: you've been dealing with this brand of unavoidable "art" since ME1. 

[themikefest]

AlanC9 wrote...

themikefest wrote...

They maybe capable to harvest on their own, but without their minions on the ground we can put more resources to dealing with the reapers themselves giving us a better chance against them.

Only if the Reapers let us. It's not like the Reapers need to occupy industrial sites to prevent organics from using the sites. If they actually are worried about the industrial sites they're fully capable of nuking them from space.

Why would I use an industrial site? The resources I'm talking about is manpower..

[David7204]

It really doesn't, Dreamgazer.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

It really doesn't, Dreamgazer.

?

[David7204]

When Shepard's survival is at the top of the list of concerns for players, denying that to all players regardless of their decisions and success is absolutely a thematic betrayal.

The 'breathe scene' makes things better, but not by much.