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[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

THe Leviathan of Dis being a Reaper is a facepalmingly bad retcon

From what I've read through the forums, it'd be a "facepalmingly bad retcon" that was the product of a lot of popular speculation. 

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Don't be silly. At one per cycle we could have over 20,000 Reapers, minus casualties. How many more depends on how long the cycles have been going on before the Leviathan of Dis was destroyed; that depends on cosmology; I don't know how early current theory says terrestrial planets could have formed. And those would have been all Sovereign-class.

Bio could have chosen to make the numbers come out smaller, sure. But they didn't have to.

The real reason they came up with destroyers is to do the Tuchanka and Rannoch scenes.

And if there were 20,000+ Sovereign-class Reapers and 100,000+ destroyers, the game should have started with a Game Over screen.

THe Leviathan of Dis being a Reaper is a facepalmingly bad retcon

Lol Yea. It's facepalmingly bad because it's inconvenient to your argument.

Regardless, I'm pretty sure Leviathan of Dis was always hinted at being a Reaper so it's not a retcon. The ME1 planet description called it a "corpse of a genetically engineered living starship."

[Daemul]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Don't be silly. At one per cycle we could have over 20,000 Reapers, minus casualties. How many more depends on how long the cycles have been going on before the Leviathan of Dis was destroyed; that depends on cosmology; I don't know how early current theory says terrestrial planets could have formed. And those would have been all Sovereign-class.

Bio could have chosen to make the numbers come out smaller, sure. But they didn't have to.

The real reason they came up with destroyers is to do the Tuchanka and Rannoch scenes.

And if there were 20,000+ Sovereign-class Reapers and 100,000+ destroyers, the game should have started with a Game Over screen.

THe Leviathan of Dis being a Reaper is a facepalmingly bad retcon

You do get a game over screen, when you take too long to use the Crucible and it gets destroyed.

How is it a retcon? It's been suspected to be a Reaper(some thought it was Sovereign) since the ME1 days.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...


Lol Yea. It's facepalmingly bad because it's inconvenient to your argument.

It's facepalmingly bad for the exact reason I just gave

Regardless, I'm pretty sure Leviathan of Dis was always hinted at being a Reaper so it's not a retcon. The ME1 planet description called it a "corpse of a genetically engineered living starship."

Nope

The codex notes were littered with references to other scifi stories.  Farscape, Forbidden Planet, and others

Modifié par iakus, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:45 .

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...


Lol Yea. It's facepalmingly bad because it's inconvenient to your argument.

It's facepalmingly bad for the exact reason I just gave

Regardless, I'm pretty sure Leviathan of Dis was always hinted at being a Reaper so it's not a retcon. The ME1 planet description called it a "corpse of a genetically engineered living starship."

Nope

The codex notes were littered with references to other scifi stories.  Farscape, Forbidden Planet, and others

Dude, that was a direct quote from the planet description that first mentioned the Leviathan of Dis. It was called a corpse of a genetically engineered living starship.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dude, that was a direct quote from the planet description that first mentioned the Leviathan of Dis. It was called a corpse of a genetically engineered living starship.

Did you even click on the link?

A  popular scifi program  that had sentient biomechanical living starships called "leviathans"

[Daemul]

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...


Lol Yea. It's facepalmingly bad because it's inconvenient to your argument.

It's facepalmingly bad for the exact reason I just gave

Regardless, I'm pretty sure Leviathan of Dis was always hinted at being a Reaper so it's not a retcon. The ME1 planet description called it a "corpse of a genetically engineered living starship."

Nope

The codex notes were littered with references to other scifi stories.  Farscape, Forbidden Planet, and others

Dude, that was a direct quote from the planet description that first mentioned the Leviathan of Dis. It was called a corpse of a genetically engineered living starship.

Yep. Here's the whole description.

"Jartar[/b] is a terrestrial world with a trace atmosphere of krypton and xenon. The surface is hot, and mainly composed of unremarkable silicates. Occasional deposits of aluminum, magnesium, and other light metals can be found.Jartar is noted for the discovery of the "Leviathan of Dis," the apparent corpse of a genetically engineered living starship. The Leviathan was found in the bottom of a crater by a batarian survey team, and estimated to be nearly a billion years old. It "disappeared" after a visit to the system by a batarian dreadnought twenty years ago.Since then, the batarians have steadfastly denied that the Leviathan existed at all – and all the more vociferously when shown recordings of the corpse made by salarian researchers."

I am failing to see the retcon.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dude, that was a direct quote from the planet description that first mentioned the Leviathan of Dis. It was called a corpse of a genetically engineered living starship.

Did you even click on the link?

A  popular scifi program  that had sentient biomechanical living starships called "leviathans"

Yes, Bioware takes inspiration from other sci-fis.

In the ME Universe, that corpse is a Reaper.

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dude, that was a direct quote from the planet description that first mentioned the Leviathan of Dis. It was called a corpse of a genetically engineered living starship.

That description does fit Moya, the living vessel in Farscape (species is called Leviathans).



It also fits the Reapers, though, and a lot of other people reached that same conclusion. 

Hell, the Reapers themselves can be seen as a reference to Farscape.

[MegaSovereign]

I'm not doubting the reference. I'm saying that in the ME universe, it's not a retcon.

[SwobyJ]

The Reapers, or aspects of them as they were introduced and later developed, come from several fictions, including Farscape, Hyperion, the Machines (of Matrix), and more.

And yes, Leviathan was not a retcon. What it *was*, was a lore patch job.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 08 janvier 2014 - 03:01 .

[dreamgazer]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm not doubting the reference. I'm saying that in the ME universe, it's not a retcon.

Considering it wasn't revealed what the Leviathan of Dis precisely was, and considering the volume of people who assumed/speculated it was either a point-blank Reaper or a form of Reaper, I agree. 

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dude, that was a direct quote from the planet description that first mentioned the Leviathan of Dis. It was called a corpse of a genetically engineered living starship.

That description does fit Moya, the living vessel in Farscape (species is called Leviathans).



It also fits the Reapers, though, and a lot of other people reached that same conclusion. 

Hell, the Reapers themselves can be seen as a reference to Farscape.

I suppose this makes the Reapers

Monsters from the Id?  

Face it, they took a fan theory and decided to run with it because it sounded cool.

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Face it, they took a fan theory and decided to run with it because it sounded cool.

Can you prove it?

What other large "living" ships exist in the MEU?

Modifié par dreamgazer, 08 janvier 2014 - 03:08 .

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...


That description does fit Moya, the living vessel in Farscape (species is called Leviathans).

It also fits the Reapers, though, and a lot of other people reached that same conclusion. 

Hell, the Reapers themselves can be seen as a reference to Farscape.

I suppose this makes the Reapers

Monsters from the Id?  

Face it, they took a fan theory and decided to run with it because it sounded cool.

And how is it retcon when it didnť directly negate known informations?

Or do you used favourite BSN definition retcon = things I don't like and want them different?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

I suppose this makes the Reapers

Monsters from the Id?  

Face it, they took a fan theory and decided to run with it because it sounded cool.

A fan theory with a plausible basis. What you're saying would sound more believable if the Reapers were introduced as the main antagonist in ME2, as a result of fan theory.

It's hard to get away with the idea that the codex entry is just an easter egg when your primary villain introduced in the same game meets the exact same description. So even if it's a retcon, it's not even remotely as problematic as some might think.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 08 janvier 2014 - 03:09 .

[Daemul]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Dude, that was a direct quote from the planet description that first mentioned the Leviathan of Dis. It was called a corpse of a genetically engineered living starship.

That description does fit Moya, the living vessel in Farscape (species is called Leviathans).



It also fits the Reapers, though, and a lot of other people reached that same conclusion. 

Hell, the Reapers themselves can be seen as a reference to Farscape.

I suppose this makes the Reapers

Monsters from the Id?  

Face it, they took a fan theory and decided to run with it because it sounded cool.

This has to be a joke post. 

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

Face it, they took a fan theory and decided to run with it because it sounded cool.

Can you prove it?

What other large "living" ships exist in the MEU?

Geth ships with their programs uploaded into them?  

@JamesFaith:  How about "rewriting history"?  It wasn't intended to be a Reaper, but after ME2, suddenly "It's gotta be a Reaper!"

[MegaSovereign]

Moya doesn't exist in Mass Effect.

Meta-inspiration is just that....inspiration. They added that description because they could get away with making subtle references to fiction because of the similarities. In the ME Universe..it's a Reaper. Living starship = Reaper.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

Face it, they took a fan theory and decided to run with it because it sounded cool.

Can you prove it?

What other large "living" ships exist in the MEU?

Geth ships with their programs uploaded into them?  

@JamesFaith:  How about "rewriting history"?  It wasn't intended to be a Reaper, but after ME2, suddenly "It's gotta be a Reaper!"

Lol, now that's reaching.

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

A fan theory with a plausible basis. What you're saying would sound more believable if the Reapers were introduced as the main antagonist in ME2, as a result of fan theory.

It's hard to get away with the idea that the codex entry is just an easter egg when your primary villain introduced in the same game meets the exact same description. So even if it's a retcon, it's not even remotely as problematic as some might think.

Check all the notes on planets throughout ME1.  The Jupiter Brain.  The Beings of Light.  There were tons of easter eggs referencing a number of scinece fiction stories over the decades.  

The Leviathan of Dis was just another one.  That the Reapers happened to bear a passing resemblence to it in the second game wesd a coincidence fans latched onto.

What makes it problematic is since it's a billion years old, retconning it into a  Reaper gives them stupid-large numbers that by all rights should have made any resistence against them utterly futile.

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

@JamesFaith:  How about "rewriting history"?  It wasn't intended to be a Reaper, but after ME2, suddenly "It's gotta be a Reaper!"

Changing "intention" without previous mentioning isn't retcon, even if you had proof that original intention was different.

By this logic most movies, books and games are full of retcons because authors changed their mind during their creation.

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

Geth ships with their programs uploaded into them?  

And which part of these ship is "biomechanical" like was mentioned in Codex?

[Iakus]

JamesFaith wrote...

iakus wrote...

Geth ships with their programs uploaded into them?  

And which part of these ship is "biomechanical" like was mentioned in Codex?

I was asked about living ships, not biomechanical.

And remember, the Leviathan wasn't "biomechanical" it was 'genetically engineered"

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

What makes it problematic is since it's a billion years old, retconning it into a  Reaper gives them stupid-large numbers that by all rights should have made any resistence against them utterly futile.

One might say that their numbers would darken the skies in that case.

Oh. Huh.