642 réponses à ce sujet

[vandalDX]

JamesFaith wrote...

Changing "intention" without previous mentioning isn't retcon, even if you had proof that original intention was different.

By this logic most movies, books and games are full of retcons because authors changed their mind during their creation.

Let's not forget that for BioWare to extend the franchise, they had to provide the players with something that raised the stakes--something bigger and badder than the Reapers, even.  One of the fundamental ways to do that was the interrogate the creation of the Reapers themselves--and in doing so, they threw open the gates to the Ancient Galaxy. 

The Leviathan DLC was thematically consistent means by which do to just that, especially with regard to indoc and the hapless organic/corrupt synthetic paradigm. 

[Daemul]

iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

A fan theory with a plausible basis. What you're saying would sound more believable if the Reapers were introduced as the main antagonist in ME2, as a result of fan theory.

It's hard to get away with the idea that the codex entry is just an easter egg when your primary villain introduced in the same game meets the exact same description. So even if it's a retcon, it's not even remotely as problematic as some might think.

Check all the notes on planets throughout ME1.  The Jupiter Brain.  The Beings of Light.  There were tons of easter eggs referencing a number of scinece fiction stories over the decades.  

The Leviathan of Dis was just another one.  That the Reapers happened to bear a passing resemblence to it in the second game wesd a coincidence fans latched onto.

What makes it problematic is since it's a billion years old, retconning it into a  Reaper gives them stupid-large numbers that by all rights should have made any resistence against them utterly futile.

1. Being a reference to other sci fi stories, as the Reapers themselves are, does in no way mean that Bioware cannot incorporate it into their own story.

2. People have known the Leviathan of Dis to be a Reaper since ME1 in 2007, it was very obvious to many of us. All ME2 did was tell us what we already knew.

3. The only way this could ever be a retcon is if in ME1 it was said to be something else but then later changed to being a Reaper in ME2. This is not the case at all.

[Iakus]

Daemul wrote...

1. Being a reference to other sci fi stories, as the Reapers themselves are, does in no way mean that Bioware cannot incorporate it into their own story.

Sure.  If it's done intelligently

2. People have known the Leviathan of Dis to be a Reaper since ME1 in 2007, it was very obvious to many of us. All ME2 did was tell us what we already knew.

Wow, you knew the Reapers were genetically engineered organic starships back when they were shown to be synthetic AIs?  You sure are smart!

3. The only way this could ever be a retcon is if in ME1 it was said to be something else but then later changed to being a Reaper in ME2. This is not the case at all.

Call it what you like, but the Leviathan wsa not originally a reaper.

And I love how y'all are derailing to topic to avoid the statement I made earlier that the galaxy should have fallen immediately if there really were 100,000+ Reapers invading the galaxy.  There would have been no time to even get the Crucible plans, let alone present it to the COuncil.

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...

Daemul wrote...

1. Being a reference to other sci fi stories, as the Reapers themselves are, does in no way mean that Bioware cannot incorporate it into their own story.

Sure.  If it's done intelligently

2. People have known the Leviathan of Dis to be a Reaper since ME1 in 2007, it was very obvious to many of us. All ME2 did was tell us what we already knew.

Wow, you knew the Reapers were genetically engineered organic starships back when they were shown to be synthetic AIs?  You sure are smart!

3. The only way this could ever be a retcon is if in ME1 it was said to be something else but then later changed to being a Reaper in ME2. This is not the case at all.

Call it what you like, but the Leviathan wsa not originally a reaper.

And I love how y'all are derailing to topic to avoid the statement I made earlier that the galaxy should have fallen immediately if there really were 100,000+ Reapers invading the galaxy.  There would have been no time to even get the Crucible plans, let alone present it to the COuncil.

Heck if there were that many Reapers they would have certainly wiped out the Protheans a lot quicker as well, in my humble opinion.

[MrMrPendragon]

Sure. They can be defeated conventionally.

On the account that the Reaper forces are brain dead, and totally mentally retarded, maybe just maybe, the military forces can survive (given that they got prep time)

Reaper ships fire lasers that ignore dreadnought shields so it's basically a "don't get hit - not even once" situation for all ships.

They have forces suited for every form of combat:

Husks to root out entrenched forces (and canon fodder), and take out local resitance
Banshees for biotic supremacy
Brutes for heavy hitters
Cannibals, Marauders, and Ravagers as front-line soldiers
Harvesters for air support.

And if that doesn't work, they'd just drop destroyers on top of you to take out any and all air support and totally wreck the whole terrain.

To top it all off, the Reapers are also king in espionage with their indoctrinated agents. They can undermine any form of resitance.


I'm surprised the organics even won this war. If Harbringer and 2 destroyers guarded the Citadel portal the whole time, that would've been over for every organic in the galaxy.

The only reason Shepard won is because the Reapers made a mistake - that mistake being leaving the Citadel portal unguarded, not because the allied forces were formiddable enough to get the job done.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

Daemul wrote...

1. Being a reference to other sci fi stories, as the Reapers themselves are, does in no way mean that Bioware cannot incorporate it into their own story.

Sure.  If it's done intelligently

2. People have known the Leviathan of Dis to be a Reaper since ME1 in 2007, it was very obvious to many of us. All ME2 did was tell us what we already knew.

Wow, you knew the Reapers were genetically engineered organic starships back when they were shown to be synthetic AIs?  You sure are smart!

3. The only way this could ever be a retcon is if in ME1 it was said to be something else but then later changed to being a Reaper in ME2. This is not the case at all.

Call it what you like, but the Leviathan wsa not originally a reaper.

And I love how y'all are derailing to topic to avoid the statement I made earlier that the galaxy should have fallen immediately if there really were 100,000+ Reapers invading the galaxy.  There would have been no time to even get the Crucible plans, let alone present it to the COuncil.

Okay, it's not a Reaper. It's a genetically engineered living starship that Batarians mysteriously took a lot of interest in and covered up. Coincidentally, Reapers are living starships. Huh.

I'm not avoiding your statement. ME2 introduced the 1 Reaper per cycle shtick. The whole point of the large number is that yea, the odds of beating them conventionally is absurd.

[dreamgazer]

And I love how y'all are derailing to topic to avoid the statement I made earlier that the galaxy should have fallen immediately if there really were 100,000+ Reapers invading the galaxy. There would have been no time to even get the Crucible plans, let alone present it to the COuncil.

> 20,000, not 100,000+. Assuming no deaths.
> Implying they'd all invade at once.
> Implying the two-year hike to the galaxy didn't complicate their plans.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

And I love how y'all are derailing to topic to avoid the statement I made earlier that the galaxy should have fallen immediately if there really were 100,000+ Reapers invading the galaxy. There would have been no time to even get the Crucible plans, let alone present it to the COuncil.

> 20,000, not 100,000+. Assuming no deaths.
> Implying they'd all invade at once.
> Implying the two-year hike to the galaxy didn't complicate their plans.

20,000 Sovereign class reapers.  Plus any number of destroyers.  I'm being conservative and assuming a 5:1 ratio.  It could be much higher.

Errm, why wouldn't they all invade at once?  Is there something good on tv that night?

And a two year hike clearly didn't complicate things all that much.  Heck they didn't even bother to take the Citadel this time, they were apparantly so confident they could face the whole freaking galaxy at once!

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Sometimes, when I'm feeling really whiny, I redefine words and concepts with my own made up meanings, too!

Then, I automatically win all arguments, because no one but me knows the definitions that I'm using! IT'S GREAT! 

Modifié par Jeremiah12LGeek, 08 janvier 2014 - 03:56 .

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Okay, it's not a Reaper. It's a genetically engineered living starship that Batarians mysteriously took a lot of interest in and covered up. Coincidentally, Reapers are living starships. Huh.

I'm not avoiding your statement. ME2 introduced the 1 Reaper per cycle shtick. The whole point of the large number is that yea, the odds of beating them conventionally is absurd.

And I'm showing that if the odds really were that stacked against the galaxy, there should never have been a game.  

Earth should have been crushed so badly Shepard couldn't escape.

 Palaven should have faced hundreds of Sovereign class Reapers right out of the gate and end up like Kar'Shan in a day or so.  

The Reapers wouldn't have even bothered cutting a deal with the geth and sent a few dozen ships to deal with the quarians.  

Thessia should have fallen within hours.  

the Citadel should have fallen even before Earth and bee garrisoned by a thousand Reapers so no one could regain control of the relay network.

[vandalDX]

iakus wrote...

the Citadel should have fallen even before Earth and bee garrisoned by a thousand Reapers so no one could regain control of the relay network.

Isn't this exact thing what Shepard and co. prevent in ME1?

[Iakus]

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

iakus wrote...

the Citadel should have fallen even before Earth and bee garrisoned by a thousand Reapers so no one could regain control of the relay network.

Isn't this exact thing what Shepard and co. prevent in ME1?

Did the Reapers somehow lose track of the Citadel between ME1 and ME3?

"Remind me, Harbinger, which nebula did we leave it in last cylce?"
"Herald, You are so not going to be the vanguard this cycle, you'd lose your tentacles if they weren't attatched""

[vandalDX]

iakus wrote...

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

iakus wrote...

the Citadel should have fallen even before Earth and bee garrisoned by a thousand Reapers so no one could regain control of the relay network.

Isn't this exact thing what Shepard and co. prevent in ME1?

Did the Reapers somehow lose track of the Citadel between ME1 and ME3?

"Remind me, Harbinger, which nebula did we leave it in last cylce?"
"Herald, You are so not going to be the vanguard this cycle, you'd lose your tentacles if they weren't attatched""

Vigil tells Shepard and co. that they blocked the signal to dark space, and so the Reapers send Sovereign who use the geth and the Conduit to reach the Citadel to activate the relay.  Shepard foils that plan, so the Reapers have to come traditionally (the last scene of ME2) and start the harvest outright.

Sovereign tells Shepard that the Citadel exists 1) to control the pathways of technological development, and Vigil tells Shepard that 2) it is a giant mass relay that would allow the Reapers acess to the galaxy.  It seems immaterial to me if they're already harvesting, especially with the numbers they have.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Okay, it's not a Reaper. It's a genetically engineered living starship that Batarians mysteriously took a lot of interest in and covered up. Coincidentally, Reapers are living starships. Huh.

I'm not avoiding your statement. ME2 introduced the 1 Reaper per cycle shtick. The whole point of the large number is that yea, the odds of beating them conventionally is absurd.

And I'm showing that if the odds really were that stacked against the galaxy, there should never have been a game.  

Earth should have been crushed so badly Shepard couldn't escape.

 Palaven should have faced hundreds of Sovereign class Reapers right out of the gate and end up like Kar'Shan in a day or so.  

The Reapers wouldn't have even bothered cutting a deal with the geth and sent a few dozen ships to deal with the quarians.  

Thessia should have fallen within hours.  

the Citadel should have fallen even before Earth and bee garrisoned by a thousand Reapers so no one could regain control of the relay network.

If the Reapers are spread out then no it's not that ridiculous. There were 3 or 4 Reapers near Shepard on Earth so it's safe to say that there could be thousands invading the whole planet.

[MrMrPendragon]

iakus wrote...

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

iakus wrote...

the Citadel should have fallen even before Earth and bee garrisoned by a thousand Reapers so no one could regain control of the relay network.

Isn't this exact thing what Shepard and co. prevent in ME1?

Did the Reapers somehow lose track of the Citadel between ME1 and ME3?

"Remind me, Harbinger, which nebula did we leave it in last cylce?"

"Herald, You are so not going to be the vanguard this cycle, you'd lose your tentacles if they weren't attatched""

Lol.

The only reason Shepard won is because the Reapers made a mistake.

[Almostfaceman]

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

iakus wrote...

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

iakus wrote...

the Citadel should have fallen even before Earth and bee garrisoned by a thousand Reapers so no one could regain control of the relay network.

Isn't this exact thing what Shepard and co. prevent in ME1?

Did the Reapers somehow lose track of the Citadel between ME1 and ME3?

"Remind me, Harbinger, which nebula did we leave it in last cylce?"
"Herald, You are so not going to be the vanguard this cycle, you'd lose your tentacles if they weren't attatched""

Vigil tells Shepard and co. that they blocked the signal to dark space, and so the Reapers send Sovereign who use the geth and the Conduit to reach the Citadel to activate the relay.  Shepard foils that plan, so the Reapers have to come traditionally (the last scene of ME2) and start the harvest outright.

Sovereign tells Shepard that the Citadel exists 1) to control the pathways of technological development, and Vigil tells Shepard that 2) it is a giant mass relay that would allow the Reapers acess to the galaxy.  It seems immaterial to me if they're already harvesting, especially with the numbers they have.

The game is fun, but the whole Reaper invasion is actually pretty dumb. There's no reason they (the Reapers) shouldn't have taken the Citadel right away and there's no reason they couldn't have shut down the choke points (the Relays) either by manipulation through the Citadel or by just patrolling the Relays. If there were 20,000 Reapers they would have rofl-stomped the Protheans, it wouldn't have taken 100's of years.

[AresKeith]

Bioware making the Reapers number that big seems like a poor decision, imo

[vandalDX]

Almostfaceman wrote...

The game is fun, but the whole Reaper invasion is actually pretty dumb. There's no reason they (the Reapers) shouldn't have taken the Citadel right away and there's no reason they couldn't have shut down the choke points (the Relays) either by manipulation through the Citadel or by just patrolling the Relays. If there were 20,000 Reapers they would have rofl-stomped the Protheans, it wouldn't have taken 100's of years.

In this, I really see the Citadel as a weakness for the Reapers--they're really hesitant to destroy it completely time and again, as in ME1 Sovereign would rather use an army of synthetics and an indoctrinated Spectre to open a jammed relay than just rush in on his own.

That weakness gets communicated later in ME3, as the Citadel itself turns out to be the home of the Catalyst (it's even mistakenly thought to be the Catalyst by the Protheans).  The fact that the Reapers take it to Earth to protect it at the end seems pretty consistent within the lore of the Reapers, and what little we know about why they do what they do.

[MegaSovereign]

Almostfaceman wrote...

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

iakus wrote...

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

iakus wrote...

the Citadel should have fallen even before Earth and bee garrisoned by a thousand Reapers so no one could regain control of the relay network.

Isn't this exact thing what Shepard and co. prevent in ME1?

Did the Reapers somehow lose track of the Citadel between ME1 and ME3?

"Remind me, Harbinger, which nebula did we leave it in last cylce?"
"Herald, You are so not going to be the vanguard this cycle, you'd lose your tentacles if they weren't attatched""

Vigil tells Shepard and co. that they blocked the signal to dark space, and so the Reapers send Sovereign who use the geth and the Conduit to reach the Citadel to activate the relay.  Shepard foils that plan, so the Reapers have to come traditionally (the last scene of ME2) and start the harvest outright.

Sovereign tells Shepard that the Citadel exists 1) to control the pathways of technological development, and Vigil tells Shepard that 2) it is a giant mass relay that would allow the Reapers acess to the galaxy.  It seems immaterial to me if they're already harvesting, especially with the numbers they have.

The game is fun, but the whole Reaper invasion is actually pretty dumb. There's no reason they (the Reapers) shouldn't have taken the Citadel right away and there's no reason they couldn't have shut down the choke points (the Relays) either by manipulation through the Citadel or by just patrolling the Relays. If there were 20,000 Reapers they would have rofl-stomped the Protheans, it wouldn't have taken 100's of years.

Aside from plot convenience, there are legitimate reasons why the Reapers may prefer not immediately attacking the Citadel.

The Citadel is still a trap. You see it actively giving the galaxy a false sense of security. If the Reapers attacked the Citadel, it would have united the races much faster.

The Reapers are also in no hurry. They may be depending on the races to fend for themselves in order to limit casualties.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah, the reapers should have been a much smaller fleet. Given what we know about how their trap was supposed to work, cutting systems off to harvest at their leisure takes away the necessity to fight by way of brute force, especially since they also use indoctrination and reaper mummies to beat down resistance. But with the relays fully active, the reapers would have been a bit more desperate. Unfortunately, the reapers were more or less powerful as the narrative dictated, rather than being consistent.

As for the Citadel, attacking it right out the gate would not have been the "catalyst" to finally unite all of the races, but rather an instant fail for the galaxy. The krogan, quarians and geth don't care about the Citadel, so no matter what they do, you can't get these races on board just because the reapers took control over the capital of galactic government.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 08 janvier 2014 - 04:26 .

[vandalDX]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Aside from plot convenience, there are legitimate reasons why the Reapers may prefer not immediately attacking the Citadel.

The Citadel is still a trap. You see it actively giving the galaxy a false sense of security. If the Reapers attacked the Citadel, it would have united the races much faster.

The Reapers are also in no hurry. They may be depending on the races to fend for themselves in order to limit casualties.

I dig this.  It lends all kinds of credence to the way in which the Reapers keep the Citadel and its contents secret, especially in ME3 and in the last scenes.

[KaiserShep]

I always thought it was funny how people still gladly live on the Citadel, even after more people are fully aware of the fact that it's still a cosmic roach motel for the reapers. I'd rather live on Omega and risk vorcha breaking in to steal my furniture than live on the Citadel.

[CrutchCricket]

MegaSovereign wrote...
The Citadel is still a trap. You see it actively giving the galaxy a false sense of security. If the Reapers attacked the Citadel, it would have united the races much faster.

...enabling them to do ****-all as the relays were shut down, and no effective resistance could be mounted anywhere.


The Citadel should've been taken first.

[MegaSovereign]

KaiserShep wrote...

As for the Citadel, attacking it right out the gate would not have been the "catalyst" to finally unite all of the races, but rather an instant fail for the galaxy. The krogan, quarians and geth don't care about the Citadel, so no matter what they do, you can't get these races on board just because the reapers took control over the capital of galactic government.

The Asari would have jumped in much earlier. And there would have been less resistance from the Salarians to offer the genophage cure to the Krogans.

It wouldn't have JUST been Shepard and the Alliance trying to gather resources. The council races would have been more active from the get go.

[AresKeith]

NVM

Modifié par AresKeith, 08 janvier 2014 - 04:31 .