642 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

JasonShepard wrote...

So the Reapers outnumber our dreadnoughts with theirs, and their dreadnoughts are 4 times better than ours. So tell me, what's your plan?

Not become extinct while the Geth ramp up their production.

[FluffyCannibal]

Simply put, the amount of time involved to achieve a conventional victory makes it extremely unlikely if not impossible. There are thousands of Reapers occupying a relatively tiny space, lining ships up won't be as easy as it ordinarily would (battles between ships are normally fought from distances of a few thousand miles). This means it will take longer to do so...after a few Reapers have been blasted out of the sky the rest will realise what's going on and change their tactics accordingly. On top of that, you've got to consider the number of ships that would have to be involved - if it takes 4 dreadnoughts to destroy one Reaper, we assume that one of those will be destroyed in the process, and 10% will be destroyed while getting into formation, even if there are only 1,000 Reapers on Earth ... that's a LOT of dreadnoughts.

[nukembaby]

AlanC9 wrote...

This is stupid. IF the Reapers needed nukes, you think they coudn't have stored them up?

50000 years in storage and they wouldnt be nukes anymore...more like duds (kinda like your post actually!). Case in point. The US military recycles its nukes after like 10-20 years for reliability reasons.

[ruggly]

A few reapers out of thousands is not a good indication of possible conventional victory.

[Phatose]

AlanC9 wrote...

Phatose wrote...

I tend to agree, but arguing against word of god doesn't actually get us anywhere.

We can certainly argue about the quality of the rationale, but the ME universe has to be one where dreadnaughts work or the Reapers wouldn't organize themselves as a race of dreadnaughts.

True.  My problem with that particular bit of handwavium is that it actually seems unneccessary. 

"Crashing a ship into a reaper at FTL speeds!" sounds awesome....until you remember how the mass effect drive works in the first place.  It reduces the ship's mass to zero to get around those nasty "Things with mass can never reach lightspeed" relativity restrictions.

Which means that when you're going FTL, your mass is zero, and thus your kinetic energy is zero, and really, a zero-energy crash isn't going to impress anyone.

If anything, an FTL ship should fly right through everything without even noticing it's there.  Certainly works out better for the universe as a whole if it's like that - interstellar space is nearly empty, but that's not the same as actually empty.  Even if you've got 1 proton every 100,000 kilometers, that proton is going to hurt if you hit it at light speed, and there's gonna be a lot more then just 1 proton if you're covering light years in interstellar space.   And inside a solar system?  Might as well be a thermonuclear mine field.

Plus, if it doesn't interact at all it explains why all civilizations aren't now powered by mass drivers.  Get a pool of water, shoot a super-light speed proton at it, and when it boils from the explosion, it drives turbines.  If the energy cost of accelerating something to FTL is less then it's kinetic energy, then you've got infinite energy.  If not, then you're not actually gaining anything going to FTL anyway and might as well just shoot the energy at the thing directly.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Honestly a conventional way to Destroy the majority of the Reapers is to lure them into a star system and blow the relay which will destroy everything in that solar system.

[nukembaby]

capn233 wrote...

There is no "EMP" (at least in the commonly applied usage of that term) for a nuclear bomb detonated in space, unless it is detonated within a magnetic field, which essentially means relatively close to a planetoid or whatever else.

If you detonated a nuclear bomb on Mars, for example, there would basically be no EMP whatsoever (Mars has no appreciable magnetic field). Nor would there be much in the way of the thermobaric effect since the atmosphere is so thin.

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing here; I wasn't referring to any atmospheric interaction. I meant the pulse of electromagnetic radiation emanating from the release of energy from fission or fusion. 

Of course the Reapers could be hardened to withstand the radiation, but at point blank range? That would require an immensity of shielding which I don't see in their design.

Modifié par nukembaby, 16 avril 2013 - 10:21 .

[Artifex_Imperius]

nukembaby wrote...

capn233 wrote...

There is no "EMP" (at least in the commonly applied usage of that term) for a nuclear bomb detonated in space, unless it is detonated within a magnetic field, which essentially means relatively close to a planetoid or whatever else.

If you detonated a nuclear bomb on Mars, for example, there would basically be no EMP whatsoever (Mars has no appreciable magnetic field). Nor would there be much in the way of the thermobaric effect since the atmosphere is so thin.

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing here; I wasn't referring to any atmospheric interaction. I meant the pulse of electromagnetic radiation emanating from the release of energy from fission or fusion. 

Of course the Reapers could be hardened to withstand the radiation, but at point blank range? That would require an immensity of shielding which I don't see in their design.

???yes reaper capital ships can shrug of a direct hit from a nuclear weapon 3x more power than the bomb drop on hiroshima. as that is the equivalent to a single round fired from a dread naught?

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 16 avril 2013 - 10:35 .

[JasonShepard]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

I direct you to: Why Conventional Victory is NOT Possible

Quick Version:
          There are at minimum 295 Sovereign class Reapers. Since we need 4 Dreadnoughts in order to take out a single Sovereign Reaper, we'd need roughly 1200 Dreadnoughts for a straight fight. We've got 85 confirmed in Council Space, and being generous to Geth and Quarian numbers, we can maybe bump that to 170 dreadnoughts in the allied fleets. 200 if the Terminus Systems have been hiding some.

          So the Reapers outnumber our dreadnoughts with theirs, and their dreadnoughts are 4 times better than ours. So tell me, what's your plan?

I can't begin to tell you how incredibly stupid it is to try and debunk conventional victory using an incredibly stupid arguement like that.

No, no, carry on, I'm interested. Otherwise firing that post at me was completely pointless, wasn't it?

Let's say you run some successful hit and run techniques, since the Reapers are spread out at the moment. In response, the Reapers bunch up, keeping the entire fleet inside a single system. They harvest each planet in the galaxy in turn - your civilians are being wiped out, and there's nothing you can do about it, since attacking their full force head on would be suicide. Did I mention the outnumbering/outgunning issue?
(Also, if you read the thread that I linked, we're assuming that below Sovereign level, Reaper Destroyers and Occuli match 1-to-1 against everything we have that isn't a Dreadnought. That's almost certainly an approximation in our favour, by the way.)

So, a few years later - maybe even decades, with you having been chased around the galaxy, Migrant Fleet style, with dwindling resources, all your planets gone, your people either having lost the will to fight or so enraged that they can't think straight... How are you going to save the galaxy? The Reapers can just ignore you and continue the harvest around you.


Ah, and maybe you're going to try that Arrival-Mass Relay trick, since I did say that the Reapers were bunching together in a single system. For the record, to get the equivalent energy of kilometer wide asteroid travelling at a few kilometers per minute, you'd need more than an entire fleet's worth of guns. I've done the maths. I can fetch it if you like. However, let's be generous and say that your entire fleet, firing on a Mass Relay, can destroy it, wiping out the entire system.

One problem. In Arrival, you can see the expanding explosion of the Mass Relay in the cinematic. That means the explosion is travelling at less than light speed. Reapers can travel faster.
But then, the Mass Relay explosion does cover an entire system in approximately a minute or so - that's about a light-hour per minute, or 60 times the speed of light (cinematic does not match up with what is then shown on the galaxy map).
60 times the speed of light? Reapers can still travel faster. They can do 30 Light-years in a day,  which is roughly 10000 times the speed of light.

Oh yeah, and then, providing you also escaped the exploding mass relay, you're then trapped in space with the entire Reaper fleet. And guess what: They can travel faster than you.

So I ask again - what exactly is your plan for conventional victory?

Modifié par JasonShepard, 16 avril 2013 - 10:45 .

[JasonShepard]

DinoSteve wrote...

Honestly a conventional way to Destroy the majority of the Reapers is to lure them into a star system and blow the relay which will destroy everything in that solar system.

The Reapers would outrun the blast wave. See my above post.


EDIT:

capn233 wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

So the Reapers outnumber our dreadnoughts with theirs, and their dreadnoughts are 4 times better than ours. So tell me, what's your plan?

Not become extinct while the Geth ramp up their production.

I like that plan 

Of course, you're in trouble when the Reapers hit Rannoch...

Modifié par JasonShepard, 16 avril 2013 - 10:42 .

[nukembaby]

damoose1 wrote...

Nukes don't work so well in space. The impact, heat and radiation would mostly dissipated without an atmosphere. Lots of wasted energy. 

You're right, they would be dissipated--against the Reaper hull! 

damoose1 wrote...
Second, radiation will be of little effect to Reapers. It only affects organic tissue severely, and I am sure they are shielded from gamma rays of deep space and radiation venting from their ezzo cores.

Shielded from ambient radiation. Sure. Shielded from a point-blank detonation of a megaton nuke? Highly doubtful. And unshielded electronics are just as susceptible to radiation damage as organics are. Maybe more so since the latter have self-repair mechanisms. 

damoose1 wrote...
Heat is also a very inefficient form of energy. A Reaper's armour can easily withstand that. You saw with many of the destroyers. They were unaffected by heat based weapons, until they opened their armour to fire their main guns. Capital ships don't have that weakness.

Can a Reaper ship fly into the sun and survive? Because that's how hot a nuke is. Again doubtful anything in the known universe can shrug off a point-blank detonation.

damoose1 wrote...
Remember, Reapers have "kinetic" barriers, so that is obviously their weakness. Nukes would not be effective. 

Kinetic barriers can only stop kinetic energy. Nuke detonation would not be stopped by kinetic barriers.

damoose1 wrote...
Your saw in the final battle, the Reapers hit with Thanix weapons were torn apart. They rely on super heated metal fired at near the speed of light (kinetic impacts). That is how you beat them.

Obviously not since we can't win conventionally. Hence my suggestion for nukes.

damoose1 wrote...
Guerilla warfare would not work in a battle of survival. You would lose out eventually. 

I agree but I was talking battle tactics, not overall strategy.

damoose1 wrote...
It is impossible to stop a force like that, unless you squash it at it's source. But, it is easy to hide the plans in a galaxy with trillions of planets. The Reapers would not have the resources to terminate all the sources before the next cycle. It is an inevitable solution, evolved from the fastest motivator: survival - survival of the fittest.

Especially if those plans included knowledge about how to build a nuke.

[k.lalh]

nukembaby wrote...
(snip)

I love how well your username fits with the topic.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

JasonShepard wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Honestly a conventional way to Destroy the majority of the Reapers is to lure them into a star system and blow the relay which will destroy everything in that solar system.

The Reapers would outrun the blast wave. See my above post.

You imply that the Reapers would know its going to happen, what is the point of a bomb if people know its there, and where did you gets these figures you did the math with, just because it looks like something doesn't mean it is, things in my rear view mirror appear closer then they are.

[MegaSovereign]

Why would the majority of the Reapers travel to one main system?

They have indoctrinated agents, they would know of a plan that big in scope.

[k.lalh]

DinoSteve wrote...

(snip)

You imply that the Reapers would know its going to happen, what is the point of a bomb if people know its there, and where did you gets these figures you did the math with, just because it looks like something doesn't mean it is, things in my rear view mirror appear closer then they are.

The Reapers' sensors would need to be based on interpretation of EMR, because as far as I know, you can't remotely entangle particles to facilitate FTL comms. In other words, the Reapers would not be able to detect that the blast would hit them until it hits them. 

DinoSteve's plans is a good one. 

[k.lalh]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Why would the majority of the Reapers travel to one main system?

They have indoctrinated agents, they would know of a plan that big in scope.

But yet the Reapers did all travel to one system. This could easily be a blackbox plan. I'm sure sacrificing one system to end the war would be justifiable to many.

[David7204]

No, it's a really dumb plan. Are the Reapers just going to sit there for six months while the Alliance has a team rig engines to an asteroid? It would have to be done fairly close to the relay.

Modifié par David7204, 16 avril 2013 - 10:57 .

[k.lalh]

I would also like to point out, nukes and exploding relays aren't conventional weapons either.

[k.lalh]

David7204 wrote...

No, it's a really dumb plan. Are the Reapers just going to sit there for six months while the Alliance has a team rig engines to an asteroid? It would have to be done fairly close to the relay.

Well ignoring the condescension, plenty of relays are near asteroid belts. Detonating a nuke or large explosive on a large asteroid would be enough to deflect it's path into a Mass Relay. Sure it's not a plan with a deft touch...but it's feasible.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Why would the majority of the Reapers travel to one main system?

They have indoctrinated agents, they would know of a plan that big in scope.

Yes because the key to a successful plan is to tell everyone, besides they could hide the crucible with no problems.

David7204 wrote...

No, it's a really dumb plan. Are the Reapers just going to sit there for six months while the Alliance has a team rig engines to an asteroid? It would have to be done fairly close to the relay.

See the above sentence.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 16 avril 2013 - 11:03 .

[JasonShepard]

DinoSteve wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Honestly a conventional way to Destroy the majority of the Reapers is to lure them into a star system and blow the relay which will destroy everything in that solar system.

The Reapers would outrun the blast wave. See my above post.

You imply that the Reapers would know its going to happen, what is the point of a bomb if people know its there, and where did you gets these figures you did the math with, just because it looks like something doesn't mean it is, things in my rear view mirror appear closer then they are.

Firstly, the Reapers would get some warning - either from an asteroid heading towards the Mass Relay, or from seeing your entire fleet gathered around the relay firing at it. Also, the blast wave certainly starts off at below light-speed, since, as I said, we can see it. Based on a conversation with Ashley in the first game, our ships can do a couple of LY in a matter of days - which would be enough to outrun the blast-wave given warning (if you're already on a ship). Reaper Ships are faster than us, so they could definitely do it (the 30 LY/day thing comes from an Alliance Estimate in the Codex).

As for the maths: the Arrival cinematic. Using Shepard as a (roughly) two meter ruler, knowing that a Mass Relay is fifteen kilometres long, and therefore (since the asteroid rivals it for size) that the asteroid is about fifteen kilometres wide, radius 7.5km. Work out volume, 'V', use the average density of an asteroid, 'rho', work out mass, 'm'.
V = (4/3)*pi*(7.5km)^3 = 1.77*10^12 (m^3)
rho = 5000 (Kg/m^3)
m = 8.8*10^15 (Kg)

I can work out the distance that Shepard is from the Mass Relay during the conversation with Harbinger, because I know Shepard's height, and the length of the relay (15km). Trigonometry does the rest. I know the length of time from the cinematic. From that, I have the speed.
There's a specific point in the ending cinematic where a box, roughly the same size as Shepard, lines up with the Relay from our POV. I used that point to calculate the distance as 50km. 50 seconds later, the asteroid hits the relay. Thats 1km/s.

Kinetic energy comes from 0.5*mass*speed*speed - which I get as 4*10^21 Joules. From the gunnery seargent in ME2, I can calculate the kinetic energy of a single dreadnought shot as 1.5*10^14 Joules. I need 27 million shots from dreadnought weaponry. Firing one shot every 5 seconds (gunnery seargent again), one dreadnought could do it in just over 40,000 hours, which is 4.5 years. You need 40,000 dreadnoughts to do it inside of an hour.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 16 avril 2013 - 11:16 .

[David7204]

I'm not trying to be condescending. But it is dumb.

That just would not work at all. It wouldn't be an elastic collision, the asteroid would just shatter. Anyway, there's no shockwave in space? The only thing pushing the asteroid would be the shell of the explosives themselves. Not only that, you'd need something on the scale of trillions of tons of explosives.

Modifié par David7204, 16 avril 2013 - 11:03 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

JasonShepard wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Honestly a conventional way to Destroy the majority of the Reapers is to lure them into a star system and blow the relay which will destroy everything in that solar system.

The Reapers would outrun the blast wave. See my above post.

You imply that the Reapers would know its going to happen, what is the point of a bomb if people know its there, and where did you gets these figures you did the math with, just because it looks like something doesn't mean it is, things in my rear view mirror appear closer then they are.

Firstly, the Reapers would get some warning - either from an asteroid heading towards the Mass Relay, or from seeing your entire fleet gathered around the relay firing at it. Also, the blast wave certainly starts off at below light-speed, since, as I said, we can see it. Based on a conversation with Ashley in the first game, our ships can do a couple of LY in a matter of days - which would be enough to outrun the blast-wave given warning (if you're already on a ship). Reaper Ships are faster than us, so they could definitely do it (the 30 LY/day thing comes from an Alliance Estimate in the Codex).

The plan would be for the reapers to come in via the relay into the star system and then blow it, as I stated before what is the point of a bomb if people know its there.

JasonShepard wrote...
As for the maths: the Arrival cinematic.

You are basing your math on a cinematic, please!

[Argolas]

Wouldn't it take way too long for the asteroid to reach the relay so the reapers would have plenty of time to just jump through it, like the Normandy that picked Shepard up in the last seconds?

Modifié par Argolas, 16 avril 2013 - 11:09 .

[David7204]

It wouldn't work.