642 réponses à ce sujet

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Argolas wrote...

Wouldn't it take way too long for the asteroid to reach the relay so the reapers would have plenty of time to just jump through it, like the Normandy that picked Shepard up in the last moment?

Like every plan it would require timing.

[k.lalh]

David7204 wrote...

I'm not trying to be condescending. But it is dumb.

That just would not work at all. It wouldn't be an elastic collision, the asteroid would just shatter. Anyway, there's no shockwave in space? The only thing pushing the asteroid would be the shell of the explosives themselves. Not only that, you'd need something on the scale of trillions of tons of explosives.

I was thinking of something like Project Daedalus/Orion. Shouldn't that work? It would get rid of the shell of the explosives problem.

Modifié par k.lalh, 16 avril 2013 - 11:15 .

[Argolas]

DinoSteve wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Wouldn't it take way too long for the asteroid to reach the relay so the reapers would have plenty of time to just jump through it, like the Normandy that picked Shepard up in the last moment?

Like every plan it would require timing.

Even in the moment right before the impact, a jump is possible. The whole reaper fleet would have to enter the systems literally seconds before the impact. There is no way the reapers would miss the hours the asteroid needs from a belt to the relay, and I can't imagine that there is any place that close to the relay where that thing could be hidden long enough to be prepared.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Argolas wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Wouldn't it take way too long for the asteroid to reach the relay so the reapers would have plenty of time to just jump through it, like the Normandy that picked Shepard up in the last moment?

Like every plan it would require timing.

Even in the moment right before the impact, a jump is possible. The whole reaper fleet would have to enter the systems literally seconds before the impact. There is no way the reapers would miss the hours the asteroid needs from a belt to the relay, and I can't imagine that there is any place that close to the relay where that thing could be hidden long enough to be prepared.

Unless it wasn't a matter of hours and you would also need to draw there attention, it would mean sacrificing a huge chunk of people and of course not every reaper would be killed but you could possibly take out alot of them.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 16 avril 2013 - 11:19 .

[JasonShepard]

Argolas wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Wouldn't it take way too long for the asteroid to reach the relay so the reapers would have plenty of time to just jump through it, like the Normandy that picked Shepard up in the last moment?

Like every plan it would require timing.

Even in the moment right before the impact, a jump is possible. The whole reaper fleet would have to enter the systems literally seconds before the impact. There is no way the reapers would miss the hours the asteroid needs from a belt to the relay, and I can't imagine that there is any place that close to the relay where that thing could be hidden long enough to be prepared.

Furthermore, the entire plan can be scuppered by sending a couple of Destroyers through each relay before the main fleet.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

JasonShepard wrote...

Argolas wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Wouldn't it take way too long for the asteroid to reach the relay so the reapers would have plenty of time to just jump through it, like the Normandy that picked Shepard up in the last moment?

Like every plan it would require timing.

Even in the moment right before the impact, a jump is possible. The whole reaper fleet would have to enter the systems literally seconds before the impact. There is no way the reapers would miss the hours the asteroid needs from a belt to the relay, and I can't imagine that there is any place that close to the relay where that thing could be hidden long enough to be prepared.

Furthermore, the entire plan can be scuppered by sending a couple of Destroyers through each relay before the main fleet.

See above post.

[Artifex_Imperius]

how many times can you pull this trick off before they wise up. thinking reapers wont repair their ships or build new ones.

[PwrdOff]

It was probably feasible before they fixed the missile glitch.

[Artifex_Imperius]

BNN999 wrote...

It was probably feasible before they fixed the missile glitch.

wow your one to talk do you ever even play multiplayer. u effin poser!

geez what a loser!

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 16 avril 2013 - 11:38 .

[Jukaga]

essarr71 wrote...

Love the nuke foot-stomping.

They're laughable in space.. and just about every vessel carries far superior alternatives, anyway.  Why not the bow and arrow since were talking about using outdated technology?

QFT. Most people don't realize that the vast majority of the damage from a nuclear weapon is the blast wave effects, in space nuclear weapons would be next to useless against a foe like the Reapers. They are obviously shielded against EMP, radiation doesn't bother them and the thermal damage would be negligible and to top it off no massive pressure wave because of the lack of atmosphere.

[JasonShepard]

DinoSteve wrote...

*Trim the quote pyramid*

Unless it wasn't a matter of hours and you would also need to draw there attention, it would mean sacrificing a huge chunk of people and of course not every reaper would be killed but you could possibly take out alot of them.

Okay. Do we agree that the initial blast wave is sub-light speed - ie, that Reapers can detect a Mass Relay explosion at range, and avoid it? If we don't agree on that point, then I'm afraid this argument isn't going anywhere, so you might as well ignore the rest of this post. Basically, I'm giving the Arrival cinematic a small amount of credit (Since you didn't like me giving it full credit).

So you've developed some sort of bomb that blows up relays at a moment's notice. Cool. However, to catch Reapers in the explosion, you'd need to have them right next to the relay, otherwise they'd see the blast wave coming. Do we agree?

There are two ways to catch the fleet at a mass relay - immediately after a jump, immediately before a jump, or by luring them to the relay.

Immediately after a jump, there's the problem of the Reaper fleet coming out hundreds to millions of kilometers away from the relay (see codex, Space-combat, 'Trans-relay assaults'). So you've got no guaranttee that after a jump they would even be in range.
Immediately before a jump... how detectable is this bomb? Because if it's completely invisible, I'll grant that you've got something here. Catch the fleet as it's about to make a jump - although the entire fleet probably won't get caught, you'd get some of it. (Some wouldn't have arrived yet, some would already be through). However, I consider a perfectly invisible bomb to be a tad unrealistic.

Lure them to the relay - okay, possibly. Except, there's nothing really to stop them from just sitting back and shooting you at a range (they outrange us too - codex, Reaper Capabilities). Especially if you're unwilling to hold the fight away from the relay. And I still hold that the 'no-warning' area would be smaller than the area of the entire battle - the Reaper fleet is BIG.

By 'No-warning' area, I'm refering to the area close enough to the relay that you'd be caught by the explosion before you got your FTL engines going. Again, judging from the Arrival cinematic (without doing a huge amount of math - I'm just comparing the size of the initial explosion to the size of the relay) this is on the order of kilometers.

So overall... I'm sorry, but you really haven't convinced me. Provided that the Reapers are sensible, I don't think they can be beaten.
I am, however, of the opinion that our cycle, fighting with tooth and nail to the bitter end (refuse ending) and giving a damn good advance warning system to the next cycle (Liara's time-capsule), could let the next cycle be enough to beat the Reapers conventionally. Our cycle as it stands? No, sorry.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 17 avril 2013 - 12:00 .

[nukembaby]

BNN999 wrote...

It was probably feasible before they fixed the missile glitch.

My favorite post so far.

And the asteroid idea....hmm. Much better than the stupid crucible idea that's for sure. Too bad they wasted it on a DLC. It could have been an epic finale to ME3.

Still, I wouldn't classify an asteroid as conventional. Nukes I do because they no longer are a WMD on the galactic scale only on a planetary scale. 

[Jukaga]

JasonShepard wrote...

Furthermore, the entire plan can be scuppered by sending a couple of Destroyers through each relay before the main fleet.

I've always thought the Reapers could have saved themselves a boatload of trouble by simply picketing each relay with a destroyer. I'm not just talking the Normandy, we see how much relay traffic there still is in the middle of the war. With no commuting and no communications other than a few QE comm systems, the galaxy would have been completely paralyzed.

[nukembaby]

Jukaga wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Love the nuke foot-stomping.

They're laughable in space.. and just about every vessel carries far superior alternatives, anyway.  Why not the bow and arrow since were talking about using outdated technology?

QFT. Most people don't realize that the vast majority of the damage from a nuclear weapon is the blast wave effects, in space nuclear weapons would be next to useless against a foe like the Reapers. They are obviously shielded against EMP, radiation doesn't bother them and the thermal damage would be negligible and to top it off no massive pressure wave because of the lack of atmosphere.

LOL at all you "experts" on nuke detonation in space.

[Artifex_Imperius]

nukembaby wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Love the nuke foot-stomping.

They're laughable in space.. and just about every vessel carries far superior alternatives, anyway.  Why not the bow and arrow since were talking about using outdated technology?

QFT. Most people don't realize that the vast majority of the damage from a nuclear weapon is the blast wave effects, in space nuclear weapons would be next to useless against a foe like the Reapers. They are obviously shielded against EMP, radiation doesn't bother them and the thermal damage would be negligible and to top it off no massive pressure wave because of the lack of atmosphere.

LOL at all you "experts" on nuke detonation in space.

point dude nukes wont work against a reaper unless you summgle one inside!

[AlanC9]

JasonShepard wrote...

Okay. Do we agree that the initial blast wave is sub-light speed - ie, that Reapers can detect a Mass Relay explosion at range, and avoid it?

FTL sensors don't exist in the ME universe. But putting buoys within range of a relay and having them communicate by FTL would be doable.

[JasonShepard]

AlanC9 wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

Okay. Do we agree that the initial blast wave is sub-light speed - ie, that Reapers can detect a Mass Relay explosion at range, and avoid it?

FTL sensors don't exist in the ME universe. But putting buoys within range of a relay and having them communicate by FTL would be doable.

I know - that's why I had to specify that the initial blast-wave (when the explosion is just starting) is less than Light-speed. Since you can see the explosion in the Arrival cinematic, that's what I'm working from.

[nukembaby]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

point dude nukes wont work against a reaper unless you summgle one inside!

My point was how do you know one way or the other? Conceptually I would have to err on the side that yes it would do tremendous damage to anything including a Reaper.

Yes nukes detonated on a planet do a ton of damage due to the shockwave, but have you ever seen the crater left by one right below it? That's pure bedrock being vaporized by the heat. Imagine that kind of damage to a Reaper ship. No way it could survive that.

[Giantdeathrobot]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

There's a pattern

Defeat of Sovereign

Not fighting back. Vulnerable.

Defeat of Rannoch Reaper

Not fighting the fleet. Not Harbinger class.

Defeat of Tuchanka Reaper

Defeated by a giant monster that has the homefield advantage and can stay underground. Not Harbinger class.

All that's been proven so far is that we can kill small or regular sized Reapers under extreme circumstances. The Reapers on Earth? They won't focus on one person, they will have shields and they will fight back. The chances look very slim when you consider how many shots it took a good size of the Quarian fleet to take out the Reaper on Rannoch.

Think about it.

To be fair, they were using low-power weapons, else Shepard would have been vaporized. Remember, he was a couple hundred meters from the Reaper on Rannoch, and Dreadnaught-class weapons are more powerful than an atomic bomb. They didn't use the cannons on the Liveships, that's for certain.

Other than that, I completely fail to see how nukes could stop the Reapers. They are next to worthless in space, much less powerful than conventional deadnaught weaponry. Plus, it's said they are taking out the nuclear silos on Earth, and we don't know if other races have nukes in any osrt of sufficient numbers to be useful. Probably not. Given the speed of the Reapers, you'd also need a much more effective delivery mechanism than the rockets we have. If the Reapers really feared heat, shockwaves and radiation, they would protect themselves against them. But they have kinetic barriers. What they fear is kinetic energy.

Look, I hate the fact we have to use the Crucible as much as the next person, but conventional victory IS impossible. Not only does Hackett say it over and over, we see how hard a Reaper is to kill, and those Codex entries indicate that while we can get a few, there's just way, way too many and they wise up to the galaxy's tactics. Whenever they're 200 or 20 000, they still outnumber and outgun the Allied fleet by a very large margin, have no supply lines to raid, endless foot soldiers and ressources, move faster, have indoctrinated agents... Their advantage is simply crushing.

[Jukaga]

nukembaby wrote...

LOL at all you "experts" on nuke detonation in space.

It's a fact, don't display your ignorance with such pride. You should strive to gain knowledge, not ridicule it.

[AlexMBrennan]

Throw a couple megaton bombs in there and they should be toast in no time

Sure, as long as long as you are willing to substitute the Crucible for another magical device called a N.U.K.E. because in the real world, nuclear weapons follow the laws of physics. "Nuke" is not a magical solution to every problem.

In ME2, we are told that one dreadnought has the firepower of 3 nukes every five seconds, and it takes sustained fire from multiple dreadnoughts to take down one Reaper.

Then there is the issue of delivery (Reapers can jump to FTL speed to escape if the battle is not going their way) and the ubiquitous BSN fallacy of assuming that the Reapers are terminally stupid - if nukes will win this war then surely a massively more advanced species could just build more better nukes.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 17 avril 2013 - 12:25 .

[nukembaby]

Jukaga wrote...

nukembaby wrote...

LOL at all you "experts" on nuke detonation in space.

It's a fact, don't display your ignorance with such pride. You should strive to gain knowledge, not ridicule it.

Huh. I suppose you're a nuclear scientist then? Where's the peer-reviewed journal paper you wrote about nuke detonation in space? 

Here are my facts from Wikipedia:

Energy from a nuclear explosive is initially released in several forms of penetrating radiation. When there is a surrounding material such as air, rock, or water, [or Reaper hull] this radiation interacts with and rapidly heats it to an equilibrium temperature (i.e. so that the matter is at the same temperature as the atomic bomb's matter). This causes vaporization of surrounding material [Reaper hull] resulting in its rapid expansion.

Now, where are your facts?

[nukembaby]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

In ME2, we are told that one dreadnought has the firepower of 3 nukes every five seconds, and it takes sustained fire from multiple dreadnoughts to take down one Reaper.

That's because mass effect barriers are ideally suited to mitigating this type of projectile based weapon, effectively lowering their yield. Also I doubt they were referring to megaton class nuke equivalent. Lastly nukes would bypass mass effect barriers entirely since they are not kinetic weapons (in space anyway).

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Then there is the issue of delivery (Reapers can jump to FTL speed to escape if the battle is not going their way) and the ubiquitous BSN fallacy of assuming that the Reapers are terminally stupid - if nukes will win this war then surely a massively more advanced species could just build more better nukes.

If it's that easy to make Reapers run (by firing a nuke at them), then the war is already won. The point is nukes make it too easy to beat the Reapers. That's why Bioware downplayed their role in ME3.

[AlanC9]

nukembaby wrote...
My point was how do you know one way or the other? Conceptually I would have to err on the side that yes it would do tremendous damage to anything including a Reaper.

Yes nukes detonated on a planet do a ton of damage due to the shockwave, but have you ever seen the crater left by one right below it? That's pure bedrock being vaporized by the heat. Imagine that kind of damage to a Reaper ship. No way it could survive that.

It's just physics. A dreadnaught shell would transfer more energy to the Reaper than a nuke would unless the nuke was within a few feet of the Reaper's hull when it detonated.